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Forced Trinity ?
ashensnow
Posts: 2,048 Arc User
I see periodic commentary, particularly when new content (or revisions to existing content) are on the horizon, referencing trinity play, role emphasis, and the like in CO. For the most part the commentary decries perceived attempts to turn CO into another enforced trinity game such as WoW. I understand the concerns, I am not fond of trinity play myself, but all too often it seems as if those expressing these concerns choose to ignore, or just don't take into consideration, some rather important aspects of CO game play while speaking out against the supposed trend towards forced trinity.
The character that you might call a tank is also a DPS. He is likely able to heal himself, and perhaps others as well. It is entirely possible that he is among the higher DPS dealers in a given group.
The character that you might call a healer may very well be able to generate significant DPS and is likely able to survive catching aggro on occasion.
The character that you might call a DPS may very well be able to heal himself, and may even be able to do the same for others in an emergency. He is also likely to be able to survive catching aggro on occasion.
In general each of these characters is a hybrid. Each has the potential to fill multiple group roles at need.
There are concerns being expressed that CO is losing (or has lost) its openness to "hybrid" character builds and play. I don't think that the reality could be much further from that belief. A hybrid character is, seemingly by definition, one that does not adhere closely to a single role. Such a character is designed to incorporate elements of multiple. perhaps even all, traditional MMO roles.
The hybrid character does damage, has the ability to take damage, and perhaps even has the ability to heal himself and/or others. By means of the block mechanic, and perhaps self heals, the hybrid character has the potential to act as a tank temporarily when he catches the attention of a boss, heal up between hits or after aggro switches to a teammate, and then switch over to DPS when he is clear. He even has the potential to support the teammate who next catches the boss' attention.
Your tactics and play style can be a significant part of your ability to survive when you are taking too much heat in a team encounter. Block, fall back, take cover, give the bad guys a chance to lose interest in you and switch to a teammate who has more health because you have been taking most of the heat.
Of course not all hybrids are created equal. Some will emphasize different aspects of character performance to different degrees. One may be far more survivable, another may do far more damage, and another may have far more capacity for self or team support. Still another might be phenomenal at all of the above. The imbalances and potential for min/maxing that have existed in this game are not likely to ever go away, but nor do they weaken the position of a Hybrid in CO. If anything the ability to customize one's build within the very loose boundaries of CO's build system make forced trinity seem unlikely in the future and certainly not here now. Why specialize when a generalist can largely reach similar results ?
TLDR: Hybrid characters are alive and well in CO and forced trinity is neither here nor on the horizon.
The character that you might call a tank is also a DPS. He is likely able to heal himself, and perhaps others as well. It is entirely possible that he is among the higher DPS dealers in a given group.
The character that you might call a healer may very well be able to generate significant DPS and is likely able to survive catching aggro on occasion.
The character that you might call a DPS may very well be able to heal himself, and may even be able to do the same for others in an emergency. He is also likely to be able to survive catching aggro on occasion.
In general each of these characters is a hybrid. Each has the potential to fill multiple group roles at need.
There are concerns being expressed that CO is losing (or has lost) its openness to "hybrid" character builds and play. I don't think that the reality could be much further from that belief. A hybrid character is, seemingly by definition, one that does not adhere closely to a single role. Such a character is designed to incorporate elements of multiple. perhaps even all, traditional MMO roles.
The hybrid character does damage, has the ability to take damage, and perhaps even has the ability to heal himself and/or others. By means of the block mechanic, and perhaps self heals, the hybrid character has the potential to act as a tank temporarily when he catches the attention of a boss, heal up between hits or after aggro switches to a teammate, and then switch over to DPS when he is clear. He even has the potential to support the teammate who next catches the boss' attention.
Your tactics and play style can be a significant part of your ability to survive when you are taking too much heat in a team encounter. Block, fall back, take cover, give the bad guys a chance to lose interest in you and switch to a teammate who has more health because you have been taking most of the heat.
Of course not all hybrids are created equal. Some will emphasize different aspects of character performance to different degrees. One may be far more survivable, another may do far more damage, and another may have far more capacity for self or team support. Still another might be phenomenal at all of the above. The imbalances and potential for min/maxing that have existed in this game are not likely to ever go away, but nor do they weaken the position of a Hybrid in CO. If anything the ability to customize one's build within the very loose boundaries of CO's build system make forced trinity seem unlikely in the future and certainly not here now. Why specialize when a generalist can largely reach similar results ?
TLDR: Hybrid characters are alive and well in CO and forced trinity is neither here nor on the horizon.
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Also all of this is right.
Deliciously nutritious!
In addition this is a super hero game, yes. But we are suppose to also be facing super villains to. That means they will either be equal to us, or quite possibly superior to us and even heroes need to bring in allies to take on threats greater than them.
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If you have an idea for a new alert or challenge that utilizes the current systems in a completely new way that you feel would be fun and challenging for teams, but not encourage combat role specializations at all, you should post that. That would be a constructive way to direct your feedback.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Otherwise for the combat MMOs, there are a few constants:
1. You must kill stuff.
2. Your party must not die before they kill all the stuff.
How to achieve point 1? Either shoot things, buff the people shooting things or debuff the things being shot at.
How to achieve point 2? Either make sure bad things hit something tough rather than squishy, fix up the toughies that are getting hit, buff the people being hit to be tougher or debuff the bad things to hit like peashooters. Alternatively for action MMOs or MMOs with evasion/dodge, don't get hit by bad things in the first place. Also, alternatively for some, usually oldschool or oldschool-inspired MMOs, CC bad things so that they can't be bad to you.
So if you're killing stuff, you're a dps. If you're drawing the attention of bad things, you're a tank (if only for a second if you're a squishy). If you're healing the people who drew the attention of bad things, you're a healer. If you're indirectly helping any of them with buffs, debuffs, CC and so on, you're support.
And unfortunately, for MMOs with autohit like CO, someone -has- to get hit by bad stuff. So in that sense there's no getting around the fact that there -will- be a "trinity".
Even in my video where I solo Frosticus for a few seconds, there was a trinity in action - my Sigils were tanking the bad stuff for me. And I had to fix them right back up as fast as I could. And I needed to do damage while I'm at it! Whoa, isn't that... the very definition of a Hybrid? :O
What if the healer is a Lifedrain + Vamp Sympathy healer standing right next to the tank with high Con and running AoRP? They'd be healing and DPSing at the same time too, and they could probably tank in a pinch.
What if there were three hybrid mode Seraphim users using Lifedrain and Vamp Sympathy?
The thing is, yes, the "your party must not die" bar is set pretty high - fair enough, it's a 10-man. But ultimately, party composition is flexible. It is up to you to decide how you want to form a party that meets the minimum bar for survivability. You can have one super dedicated healer, or you can have a lifedrainer and another hybrid healer, or the tank can cover some healing duty with Ego Weaponry or Devour Essence; you can have one super dedicated tank, or you can have one DPSy tank per boss, or you can have one high aggro survivable hybrid per boss and a mitigation buffer/debuffer using AoRP and Ebon Sigils.
'course, people like using the trinity because it makes finding groups more straightforward. But ultimately no one's forcing them to - it's just more convenient. I personally don't call myself "DPS" or "Tank" or whatnot when I ask to join a party. I just tell my friends "invite me", and they know whatever I do, it's going to contribute to the group somehow.
You don't have to FORCE people to play tanks and healers, because there are people who WANT TO play tanks and healers, and anytime content comes out that REQUIRES tanks and healers, those roles will QUICKLY be FILLED by the people who WANT TO fill them.
During Fire and Ice not a single person was forced to play a trinity character. Everybody who played a trinity role did so willingly and did it with a big smile on their face because suddenly THEIR BUILD CHOICE MATTERED.
You, the people who constantly crusade against the supposed take-over of the trinity don't seem to care that those people were happy for one brief shining moment. You want to take their happiness away... not even to replace it with your own happiness, but simply to take it away for fear that someday your happiness might in some way be infringed upon, possibly, maybe, even though nothing indicates that that is happening, and even if it was it would be a long ways off.
You are not reading the future of the game; you are trying to ruin other peoples' fun out of irrational fear. Thank CN that you are not successful.
So, what is your answer to the people who want to play tanks and healers? You going to tell them to go play another game or something? Trinity players are not your enemy, and you should not be crusading to prevent their fun.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
However, this is the part that interests me.
Is it possible to have a combination of Lifedrain with Bountiful Chi Resurgence, Conviction, with Defiance (perhaps other powers as well) to survive against the likes of Frosticus or Gravitar, as the main Tank?
Because that's a really cool idea for a toon, like he's just draining a Villain's power. It's like DC's Parasite or something. You can see this as a Tank or as a Hybrid, that's cool, feel free to debate, but has anyone tried something like it?
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They do encourage this style don't they? At least, moreso than before. You can actually premake a group now.
I wouldn't do a non-standard setup in a pug because once you start mixing roles, you need to do a bit of premeditation to split survivability duty so that you do not wipe. It could be that one person is going to be 50% of a tank, and another person is going to cover another 40% of what the tank needs to do and bring 60% of the needed healing, and someone else might bring 10% more tankishness with say, Fear debuff and and 40% healing with Lifedrain and so on.
But the fact remains that it's doable. No one's stopping you from grouping together with 4 other friends playing hybrids. As long as your team has synergy and, between the 5 of you, puts out enough damage reduction, healing and aggro, you can just LFG another 5 randoms to help you get stuff done faster and go on your merry way. But it has to be 5 friends because you really need to know what each person is capable of to benchmark how you expect the team to perform as a whole vs what is needed.
Have you seen Snake (honestresearcher)'s ultimate tanking video? Although I personally consider it more of ultimate healtanking
Trinity is only "forced" if your an AT. Even then, you can make the "glass cannon" dps ones into tanks by adding a healer (and gear / spec fiddling)... I'm not sure if you could get a blade AT to be a suitable tank for Frosty though, but I bet it could tank Blaze as long as you were all over that block button.
What Fire and Ice really does is forces you to go pre-made because you must have complimentary builds.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
100% truth right there. This new content promotes both hybrid and trinity styles of play. Anyone who says "Content should allow trinity style play without requiring it" should be jumping for joy at the design direction Cryptic North has taken, because that is exactly the direction the game is continuing to go in.
The "anti-trinity protesters" can put away their picket signs, there's nothing left to fight.
Trinity style setups just make everything simpler. Going with more unique hybrid setups requires unique group tactics... and isn't that what the hybrid players want? A unique experience? What would be the point in having a group of hybrid players have the exact same simple experience as a trinity group.... "be the hero you want to be" goes hand in hand with "figure out how all these heroes work together best". That's what they have to do in the comics after all.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This... Well said Spinny.
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(also it wouldn't be a binary/characteristic system. note how its all gradiented, because that symbolizes how the definitions/roles are all fluid in reality due to all the choices and symbolism wooo)
DE tanks are really common. And also effective. One character I used to tank Gravitar with was an INT/Con/something based character that used AoPM, active defenses, and could stably hold aggro and take damage using nothing but Circle of Primal Dominion, Devour Essence, and the actives.
Cool, thanks for the heads up.
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Truthfully, every player is an in-between of something with varying degrees, even ATs. It is while in a team, such varied combinations of builds begin to complement each other.
I organised runs after runs with consistent success with as many as half the team being ATs and builds of any flavour. No one else had to carry the ATs because they were free to do what they could with a tank on the bosses and support on their backs. I'm pretty sure players didn't even feel my presence as they did their thing without worries. There was fun, there was farming, that was what mattered.
To a DPS, your challenge is to do as much damage to bring the 2 bosses down as fast as possible. Likewise a tank needs to survive as much damage while generating threat and a healer needs to keep everyone safe. That is as much trinity as it is common knowledge. But the lines between roles are already not clear cut in CO and the degrees of complement so wide and yet we define ourselves as DPS/Healers/Tanks when we call for a LFG. We admit that we are better and at the same time lacking in certain areas.
Do not talk about solo hybrid builds being the standard for difficulty adjustment especially with regards to team content because their abilities can be mediocre in some areas at best. Then there would be nothing to challenge even the worst players in the game.
You're not a dedicated healer but see someone dangerously low on health and have a heal-other/shield power to prevent them from faceplanting? You're an inpromptu healer/buffer.
You're not drawing aggro and find that you don't need to be healing/buffing others in as team? You're generally DPS.
I could go on with more detailed examples but I think the point here is clear: Trinity exists in the game. It always has, even before archetypes. It's a fundamental part of the mechanics that's not going to go away. Freeform hybrids just make it less obvious because they're able to have interchangeable trinity roles on the fly as compared to other games with fixed player classes. This concept of wanting content that strays away from trinity simply doesn't exist. Asking for the game to be "less of a trinity" one is just silly.
...Platforming?
Deliciously nutritious!
Excuse me while I go play it for fudge and giggles.
Deliciously nutritious!