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Fire And Ice, too easy.

baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
edited September 2014 in Missions and Content
So, with the amount of Freeforms out there that can pack every heal under the skill tree, and still do a big old truckload of damage, combine that with a competent healer, you almost don't need an actual tank in Fire and Ice.

But isn't that was Fire and Ice was designed for? To promote the Trinity of Tank-Healer-DPS and teamwork at the same time? You know, like an actual Raid, and not just content you can lolfaceroll through.

So, up the difficulty a bit, make it where you need a dedicated Tank on Frosticus and Kenina, and a dedicated healer on each tank, and if DPS pulls aggro, they should either shed it or go squish.

Yeah, make it harder, promote the Trinity.
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  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Call me a troll if you want. Fact is, Fire and Ice isn't hard. It's rather pathetically easy if you have two pennies that you can rub together to make sense of it.

    I read the release notes. Every "ZOMG RANDOM INSTA-KILL" skill that Frosticus and Kenina have is explained in plain English what YOU, as a player, can do to stop it.

    It's rather simple. It really is.

    Don't run around like an idiot, or you'll end up running into a Fire Cage, and kill people.

    Pay attention to large ice chunks on top of someone. Those are Ice Cages. If you don't kill them fast enough, the person inside will die.

    Pay MORE attention to the oddly shaped Blue and Red ice chunks that pulsate. Those are Living Ice and Living Fire, and if not killed, they will wipe the team.

    Having situational awareness and using TAB Targeting is your friend. Ice Cage, and Living Fire/Ice are considered pets, and can be tab targeted on. No, DO NOT CLICK target, you'll probably miss and target a mailbox.

    Now, see how extremely easy that is?

    If you claim to be a Tank, you should be in the Tank role, preferably with a Tanky passive, like Defiance or Invulnerability with a decent chunk of health, you know, around 13k, with a meaty block skill, and having Crippling Challenge or Challenging Strikes on at least one of your skills to generate MORE threat.

    If you claim to be a Healer, you should be in the Support role, and you know, actually able to heal a Tank taking large amounts of damage, because Frosticus hits like a freight train pulling cars. As long as you keep your healing glommed on whoever you're assigned to tank, and I mean ALL THE HEALING, you shouldn't have a problem.

    Gee golly gosh whiz, I'm so trololololing here when I'm asking for Fire and Ice to be harder to actually improve the skills of those that wish to master the content!

    Oh, and the death of Champions Online isn't the Trinity, you backwards paint-chip eating window lickers. The death of Champions Online is the lack of end-game content.

    Just because you want end-game content that's closer to lolfacerolololers Online that you can burn through with your "uber l33t freeform do everything" does NOT make it good content.
  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Oh, and the death of Champions Online isn't the Trinity, you backwards paint-chip eating window lickers.

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  • xrazamaxxrazamax Posts: 979 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I don't think that fire and Ice is too easy, but I don't think it is too hard either. It does require more planning and stragedy than any other content, but so what? I am glad you can't just sit back and spam a single attack until your enemies are dead.

    You have to pay attention to what you are doing, and more importantly to what your teammates are doing. You actually have to talk to one another, ask someone to take aggro on a particular opponent, and you get rewarded for having powers that benefit the entire group - you know, so everyone isn't just ALL DPS ALL THE TIME.

    Is champions still a game that lets you be the hero you want to be? Yes - but that isn't a license to be able to run around flailing your arms like kermit the frog without the possiblity that you will lose.

    And it makes sense - when a team goes in knowing who is tanking what, which player has the heals, and the DPSers know not to take too much aggro and to watch out for the Living fire/ice... well you SHOULD be able to accomplish things other groups can't.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Why would you want to promote Trinity? I think she's a fairly 2 dimensional character with no backstory.... and she isn't even hot.
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited February 2014

    So, up the difficulty a bit, make it where you need a dedicated Tank on Frosticus and Kenina, and a dedicated healer on each tank, and if DPS pulls aggro, they should either shed it or go squish.

    Sooo.. 15k base instant cast spells that can be chained upto 8 times in a row aren't enough punishment for people getting Frostnutz attention? Have you ever even tried this alert outside of a private group? How about in a PuG w/o a dedicated healer? Or a PuG w/o a good tank for Frostnutz? Or a PuG w/ <8 people? Cause if you PuG, you will get those situations arising, no matter what you do.


    If you haven't done any of that then don't expect people like me to take ur opinion on the balance of the fight seriously.
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  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Someone post in this thread can be happy.
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  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Sooo.. 15k base instant cast spells that can be chained upto 8 times in a row aren't enough punishment for people getting Frostnutz attention? Have you ever even tried this alert outside of a private group? How about in a PuG w/o a dedicated healer? Or a PuG w/o a good tank for Frostnutz? Or a PuG w/ <8 people? Cause if you PuG, you will get those situations arising, no matter what you do.


    If you haven't done any of that then don't expect people like me to take ur opinion on the balance of the fight seriously.

    Gosh, I know, it's so unpossible to imagine a scenario that a bunch of randoms thrown together can't defeat a situation without any previous planning or making sure the classes are balanced.

    Facerolololol Online for everyone!
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    laughinxan wrote: »
    Even more obvious since you call us names :).

    The Irony here is staggering. I almost fell down.

    But, on a serious note, baelogventure here isn't entirely wrong. If you follow the steps they outlined then it's not that hard so long as everyone does their job. Also, not to sound elitist too much, but I disagree with the call for making this more difficult simply because the average player doesn't seem to be able to handle it. I think the difficulty is right about where it should be when you look at the gap between the "can", "can not", "we're going to complain anyways reguardless", and "OMG where is CoX? I miss CoX! You COers should fail and die" crowds. The necessary bug repairs and some adjustments to the abysmal drop tables should be addressed but overall I find this alert to be fun.

    Flow: Yes, I've run this in PUGs. I've run this in Private Queues. I was in an alert so bad last night on a support/dps toon that nobody would even attack so the Living Fire and Ice spawned...and wiped everyone. Then half of them left. IMO if people are this afraid of their precious toons maybe possibly being killed...they should go to Westside and work on their 5k Purple Gang Perk with their 40.

    And honestly, I'm kinda sick of the word Troll. I think it's more often than not used as a term to simply dismiss the views of someone whom you do not agree with on a subject because entering into a debate on that topic would simply prove to be "too hard" and "require effort." Now sometimes there are actual trolls but I didn't see this guy bust in with,"WoW did it 1st. WoW did it best," or anything like that so maybe...just maybe it's the opinion of one person and they should have their momment to express it instead of being so quickly dismissed with pirctures because that course of action is "easier." :cool:
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  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    That's not a "Fact" that's an "Opinion" reguardless of my "Opinion" on whether it's true or not. Some people do like the idea of trinity and the AT System is kind of designed, poor sods, around this idea so 100% invalidation of the option of Trinity play is actually invalidating alot of the AT players from the equation.

    The guy just posted his "Opinion" and from what I've seen...even if it's not popular doesn't mean he will likely stop since alot of people on the forums spout some pretty bizarre broken record diatribe on a fairly consistant basis and do not stop despite being met with the same level of popularity. At least, so far, this poster is in his own thread doing so vs. going around the forums taking shots every chance they get reguardless of topic(# Optional). :wink:
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  • wimpazoidwimpazoid Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Which are your toons that you play Fire & Ice with, OP? I'll keep a lookout for them and see if you the weight you carry is as big as something else inflated, or if you cruise along on the backs of others.

    Your leetness is making me feel bad about myself.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    wimpazoid wrote: »
    Which are your toons that you play Fire & Ice with, OP? I'll keep a lookout for them and see if you the weight you carry is as big as something else inflated, or if you cruise along on the backs of others.

    Your leetness is making me feel bad about myself.

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    Hit me up sometime if you need someone for a rampage run.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Gosh, I know, it's so unpossible to imagine a scenario that a bunch of randoms thrown together can't defeat a situation without any previous planning or making sure the classes are balanced.

    Facerolololol Online for everyone!

    Well, if you've tried to PuG this to any extent, you'd know F&I can easily turn disasterous, and that CO from the outset does not enforce group balancing (or even basic group filling) for their public queues (nor do they even offer a basic functioning UI to us PuG 'peasants', but that's a diff topic). If they didn't want disorganized groups to be viable w/ the content then they should never have opened it up to their haphazard public queuing system to begin with.

    Unfortunately for your suggestion, the only way to make it work but still make the content publicly accessible is to wall off the 'elite' from the rest by implementing difficulty levels in Alerts. They could do this, but I somewhat doubt a game like CO has the community base to really make it work, or be worthwhile.

    And you should give me more credit. I'm one of the few people that won't outright call you a troll- but you wanted an actual discussion, so there ya go.


    Crosschan: I completely agree w/ you that too many people are not willing to accept deaths as part of the learning process. Most players have prob just been satiated by CO's general lack of difficulty for a long time. Unfortunately, in PuGs you sometimes just have to cut ur losses when you realize a group just won't work- but that comes *after* you learn a bit about how the fight works. I need work in this area myself- that is, bowing out in a reasonable way. I try to, and I'm def not a boy scout in this area, but its hard to have the good will to communicate like that all the time when you PuG so much and there's such high group turn-over (I never openly insult players, though- to me that's always out of line).

    Puggers will learn, even if its slowly and via filtering out 'quitters'- pretty much what happened w/ Gravitar :/
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  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I don't really think Fire and Ice really needs to be harder, but nor do I believe its difficulty is unreasonable. Get rid of the targetable scenery junk and maybe adjust that one attack from Frosticus and it's fine. I'm glad to see something in CO that seems like actual team content and not just 'solo content for the hardcore and extremely patient.'

    I know this may be shocking to think about, but...

    Maybe it's a good thing that PUGs can't easily faceroll their way through something with no communication, no knowledge of the fight, wearing green/yellow gear from ten levels ago and using a build that revolves around using their Energy Builder as their main attack.

    Maybe, with the introduction of private queuing, it's a good thing to have content that practically demands its use. Maybe it's a good thing to expect people to learn boss fight mechanics. Maybe it's a good thing to expect a little communication in an MMO, even if it's as simple as shouting single words in local chat. Maybe it's a good thing to encourage that Freeforms with so many powers to choose from spend 1-2 of them on a heal or rez.

    And what's with all this trinity whining? Fire and Ice only really expects you have two tanks; heroes with a defensive type passive, high health, and aggro advantages on their powers. Heals and rezzes can be handled by any FF who had the sense to take some. There's no enrage timer, so the rest of the team can be whatever. You can have an entire team of tanks if you want. This is hardly any kind of strict trinity that demands precise team composition and everyone well geared and specced in exactly the right way to fulfill their roles. It's not unreasonable to demand that, of a group of 10 heroes, a few of them are built to take hits and some of them can throw heals around.

    I'd like to know what the ideal is for these trinity whiners. Really, I want to know what your idea of a good encounter would be, where the enemy damage output is so pathetically low that it can easily be survived by those with offensive passives and 4k health, where fights are so shortlived that no healing is necessary, where there is no lockout so you can just respawn zerg everything to death. Because failure to meet those criteria would mean a tank or healer is necessary, and we can't have that because trinity bawwwwww.
  • guardianettieguardianettie Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I think fire and ice is a little bit easy if you get the right private queue. I think it is too difficult if you just randomly queue yourself, though. I'm not saying it should be easier, but I think that there is some balancing that needs to be done to make the queue more doable for those random queues where you have only been queued with 6 other people instead of a full ten. At first, I had no idea what the private queue system was. I failed fire and ice to the point of frustration, one time only being queued with 4 people, the next time only being randomly queued with 8 people, and so on. Until I started using the private queue function, which is buggy but I love it, is when I started being successful at the latest rampage.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    the difficulty in fire and ice is about right. mechanics are broke since it uses team wipe, but overall difficulty is fine.

    it shoulda been made to reward hybrids rather than only trinity roles, but talking overall difficulty its perfect.
    yeah I can't say that I think the encounter is off in terms of difficulty, from both a PuGing and private group standpoint- assuming there can only be one version for both cases. It hits that middle area pretty well, imo.

    As far as satisfying the players that want more challenge.. what I can say at this point is its better to have more content in general- which we are getting. We can always worry about that sorta stuff later.

    For now, those players wanting more challenge can do what they have always done for games like this: create it for themselves. I imagine there's got to be some interesting ways to do these fights w/o conventional things like dedicated healers, or trying to do a run w/ just dps/hybrids and heals, or doing it w/ as few people as possible. The private queue system (another big bone rolled to the players) has given you all much easier freedom to do that sort of thing, ya know?
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  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    because the trinity is not what this game is about. this game is about building the hero you want.

    the game should be balanced for hybrids. that would reward all gameplay styles. including your precious tanks and healers.

    the damage need not be low. the fights need not be shortlived. what do you think self heals are for? what do you think any defensive capability is for? of course fights can lock out, why can't we expect our heroes to look out for themselves instead of having some healer babysit them?

    So what you're saying is we should be able to Build the Hero We Want, as long as that hero is a self healing Hybrid with a defensive passive and SS Con.

    Way to promote build diversity.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Fire and Ice does not force anyone to build a trinity character. People with Trinity characters will naturally gravitate towards it, so all you have to do is make sure you end up in a group with them and then you personally can build anything you want.


    The fact that there are people who want to build tanks and healers and that those people are guaranteed to show up in the content that rewards those types of characters is why you're not personally being forced to do anything.

    Next time Fire and Ice comes around we're going to be swamped with tanks and healers, because of the following reasons:

    - Players who formerly played healers and tanks but stopped because the game doesn't reward that will now have brought back their healer and tank builds

    - Players who didn't even know they liked playing a real tank or healer until now will have fully tanked and healered up their characters

    - Players who quit because there was no reason to play a healer or a tank, and that's what they like to do, having returned.

    NOTE: Those are ALL examples of players who WANT TO PLAY TRINITY, and are not being forced to play trinity.

    There are players who want to play tanks and healers, and those players are going to end up in this alert. Try shooting those players a thank you some time, because they're the reason you don't have to build any specific way. The irony is, instead of thanking them, you people are in here fighting as hard as you can to remove the content they enjoy.


    tl;dr - only about 3 people in the party really need to be trinity to make FnI easy, every single other player in the party can be whatever the heck they want. Gravitar actually rewards hybrid characters much more than specialized characters. Lemurian invasion doesn't require anything since the Harbinger hits like a sock. Sky Command requires 2 or 3 people with moderate healing ability to make it easy.

    The trinitypocalypse has been cancelled ( and it only ever had a chance at getting 3 days out of every 12 to begin with.. )
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Spinny, I could hug you right now. You wrote everything I wanted to say about all this "boo trinity" talk.

    A big reason why I love Sky Command is because when I play my healer in it I feel like my actions have a direct impact on the success of the mission. Put her in a Smash Alert, and I feel like I'm holding everybody back since I'm not doing lots of DPS.

    We shouldn't just do away with content that promotes some of us being Tanks or Healers or DPS or whatever. The "Be the hero you want to be" line goes just as much for those of us who want to build a hero toward a role as it does for those who want to be a jack-of-all-trades.
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    See, the difficult thing about the hybrid or non-role style argument I can't quite get behind is, even if its an admirable thing to defend in concept, in practice it just doesn't work that way, in most games I've seen.

    Most of these hybrids I see are not really *playing* like hybrids. They may pick up a defense passive, but they have no real intention of tanking or off-tanking (and w/o CC/CS they prob won't), they just wanted more survivability. They may have picked up some heals, but they are likely just for themselves and not for other players. I rarely witness players actualizing a true hybrid playstyle- that is, mixing dps or tanking w/ some ally healing. Usually, 'hybrid' in this game is just ends up being 'dps of another color' or 'dps-tank' (latter mostly cause its tough holding aggro as a pure tank in CO; former because going pure dps is too limiting considering the dmg DR and how good cd cycling is to make up for lack of dps role; iow, its min-maxing, not done to play like a hybrid)- esp if the users are FF.

    I mean, hell, when I was tanking F&I in PuGs- after I figured out the best manner of doing so, I didn't necc need a committed healer. Even a 'hybrid' occasionally tossing heals my way could have sufficed- but balls if I ever got even that lucky when no Support toon ended up being in the team :/

    I will support hybrid play if it doesn't just mean 'dps-tank' or 'I'm a sturdier dps w/ less dps'. I mean, there are quite more dimensions avail than that, but most players seem to not care for them.
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  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    tl;dr - only about 3 people in the party really need to be trinity to make FnI easy, every single other player in the party can be whatever the heck they want. Gravitar actually rewards hybrid characters much more than specialized characters. Lemurian invasion doesn't require anything since the Harbinger hits like a sock. Sky Command requires 2 or 3 people with moderate healing ability to make it easy.

    The trinitypocalypse has been cancelled ( and it only ever had a chance at getting 3 days out of every 12 to begin with.. )

    I wanted to say something like this.. but you just nailed it. The only thing I'm going to add is.. most of the players I've "Rampaged" with have been playing hybrid mode. And... being Freeform doesn't mean you have to play in Hybrid. There are a ton of FreeForm builds, designed to take advantage of role specific benefits. People were playing those long before the Rampage revamp.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    the difficulty in fire and ice is about right. mechanics are broke since it uses team wipe, but overall difficulty is fine.

    it shoulda been made to reward hybrids rather than only trinity roles, but talking overall difficulty its perfect.

    Urm what? Exactly how are hybrid players not being rewarded in a way that trinity players are? Are we talking about a sense of role fulfillment here? If that's the case, if a hybrid player is able to stand on their own two feet during the full or at least majority of the duration of the fight then he or she has contributed just as any archetype player has.

    If it's actual tangible rewards you're refering to then I don't get it.
    laughinxan wrote: »
    Your really overshooting and really putting words in her mouth. This game was originally balanced around hybrids, before archtypes came out. In fact I had a horrid worry when I saw the archtypes introduced with free for all. The thing was, I saw they were limited, but I also thought ahead towards those who got into this game without knowing this games freeform system was before the archtypes.

    Well too bad. Times have changed. Archetypes are part of the formula now. The balancing act has to involve them as well and not just freeform hybrids. Balancing the game while using peformance thresholds defined by freeform will be unfair to archetype players. Content created for everyone without a difficulty classification like the rampage alerts have to be balanced this way.
  • wimpazoidwimpazoid Posts: 456 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Most of these hybrids I see are not really *playing* like hybrids. They may pick up a defense passive, but they have no real intention of tanking or off-tanking (and w/o CC/CS they prob won't), they just wanted more survivability. They may have picked up some heals, but they are likely just for themselves and not for other players. I rarely witness players actualizing a true hybrid playstyle- that is, mixing dps or tanking w/ some ally healing. Usually, 'hybrid' in this game is just ends up being 'dps of another color' or 'dps-tank' (latter mostly cause its tough holding aggro as a pure tank in CO; former because going pure dps is too limiting considering the dmg DR and how good cd cycling is to make up for lack of dps role; iow, its min-maxing, not done to play like a hybrid)- esp if the users are FF.


    I will support hybrid play if it doesn't just mean 'dps-tank' or 'I'm a sturdier dps w/ less dps'. I mean, there are quite more dimensions avail than that, but most players seem to not care for them.
    What you have described is dominant in this game. Players primarily choose a role and build specifically to specialise in a min/max manner. The most common being the min/max dps being made survivable.

    Freeform to them simply means free pick of powers, but while they want the freedom to play however they want, their own specialisation defines their weaknesses.

    Content that challenges all aspects of play cannot be expected to play to strengths of any such freeform builds and be forgiving on their shortcomings.

    I'm not that kind of player though, I have many builds that although are spread thin in power picks and far from optimal, my builds can fill different roles under different circumstances. I can help out with dps, step up to tank (actual threat generation), or even be the sole healer to support a 10 man team in Fire and Ice with role switching. I am however not specialised enough to excel in those areas as the min/max builds.

    I think this direction for new content suits my heroes very well. I did not corner myself into facing problems with trinity. I simply play how I wanted with the freeform system because it actually allows you to be truly freeform.
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,444 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Fire and Ice cannot be called easy until we get to the point where PUG groups can guarantee a win in the way that PUG groups win in Gravitar.

    Also, you must have had a STRONG tank who didn't need outside heals holding agro on Frost. I've been in groups with one a few times and yes that DOES make it easy.
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Fire and Ice does not force anyone to build a trinity character.
    -snip-

    This was awesome.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,223 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Also, you must have had a STRONG tank who didn't need outside heals holding agro on Frost. I've been in groups with one a few times and yes that DOES make it easy.

    If this was in ref to my last reply- well that tank I decided to optimize (w/in my own limited resources) still can't quite do it w/o any outside healing- or at least he would have to be quite lucky and play all his cards right. Still involves a dizzying amount of blocking and juggling cds/heals, and a simple ice prison can ruin it all completely.

    He did make more PuGs successful when I was fielding him, though- just goes back on my point that either the Frosticus tank or their healer(s) (or a mix of both) is the real cinch of that particular encounter (just as having attentive healers is for Sky command). As foxi mentioned, everyone else can pretty much do or be w/e they want, as long as the basic fight mechanics aren't being ignored.


    Wimpazoid: you sound like one of those rarer players I've encountered that would embrace a fluid hybrid playstyle. Its about as uncommon in MMO's as players that actually seek out or enjoy being dedicated healers or tanks.

    I guess I could have been more succinct by stating 'most players will opt into dps roles naturally, and using a diff label doesn't change that its a dps-minded player'.
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  • gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Boss encounters always have some dynamic(some like to call script) that players need to follow in order to have the chance to successfully beat the encounter.

    Apart of the script there are the requirement, that usually goes in terms of dps and damage mitigation, which involves different roles.

    For the first part. I think Cryptic did something good when it described the encounter in the preview but I think it should be more advertised towards the not so eager to look for how encounter works people. I also suggest that the wait timer after wipe to be increased to 120s, so people can explain a bit of the fight when things didn't go smooth.

    About requirements, it is entirely up to how inclusive or exclusive the content wants to be.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    gradii wrote: »
    ALL content must be inclusive.

    From a game design standpoint, that's not true at all. That'd be like saying all games must be all inclusive... in which case, you could never make a successful game since you would end up creating a piece of garbage trying to please everyone.

    Content does not need to be all inclusive. Certain bits of content can be tailored to specific groups, and this is healthy for games. Specialized content, in small amounts, can bring something to a game that generalized content cannot.
  • crappynamerulescrappynamerules Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I actually stopped playing in tank role in fire and ice pugs. I've said it before, my problem isn't the damage of the scripted special attack things. Boss fights in tons of MMOs have attacks like that that will have devastating consequences if you don't react correctly. That's fine. It's the fact that the regular stuff, particularly stuff from frosticus, just does so much ******n damage. It feels like as soon as you become his focus, you will die soon afterward.

    Also, while other MMOs use roles and balance fights around teamwork that puts them to use, those games have ROLE BASED QUEUES. Granted, you might still wind up with people who qualified for healer or tank but weren't built for it, that happens. But it's still a much better guarantee you'll get the dynamic going. I'm sure some of you throw together private queues all the time. That's just great. Many of us don't have the ability to wrangle up that many people though. Especially not with the consistency needed to actually run these rampages enough to get the tokens.

    That's another thing. The token drop rates are abysmal. For some reason sky command seems to guarantee the token, but everything else seems less likely to drop than a warlord costume piece in harmon labs. If it's limited to one per character per day, why do we need to have these lousy rates of drops? I'm running these things for justice gear, not female only costume pieces for my 0 female characters.
  • skylygerskylyger Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Why would you want to promote Trinity? I think she's a fairly 2 dimensional character with no backstory.... and she isn't even hot.
    Trinity.jpg

    I totally concur, and in fact so thoroughly agree I shall apologize to you for any time I have ever possibly got heated with you in the forums.
  • skylygerskylyger Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    LOL at the OP, the only thing CO has ever had going for it is Freeform play, Forcing the group trinity mentality would kill this game so very fast.

    Yes CO when it went FTP also became pure P2W because of the pay wall to access the power of the free form, and ATs in general should never be catered to as if they can play just fine then there is no point to ever pay into CO.

    Sadly it also is what truly killed this game, as one cant simply pay for a free form slot to unlock an old free form toon, and thus holds them hostage behind the unloved subscription plan that many who once had hope for CO will never re submit to.

    IMO what would save CO is making Free form slots around 15 bucks each, and allowing them to be applied to old FF toons made prior to the FTP change( and only those so as to appease life timers and long time subbers not feeling its just for everyone.

    For new accounts, I certainly say yes charge them 50 a FF slot and dont let them convert sub made FFs to FTP FFs.

    But the old players, the ones who might return if such a olive branch was offered, surely even the newest life timer can agree such who came here early on in good faith deserve some extra incentive.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    characters I've had most success with in F&I(still no tokens though) an Gravitar
    Electric from- lightning and backup healer and resser
    regen- pet summoner- noxious breath - backup healer and resser

    one runs in ranged dps, the other one runs in hybrid, simply because of the energy
    Stuffing up Freeform builds since Mid 2011
    4e1f62c7-8ea7-4996-8f22-bae41fea063b_zpsu7p3urv1.jpg

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  • jimhsuajimhsua Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Hope I'm not rezzing this from the dead (it's only page 2), but during this last rotation (of which I've done a few dozen, had a drop on the first one, and NO FREAKING drops after that), here were the biggest wipes:

    - Not noticing LF/LI on a ranged tank (not a sniper tank, but a normal ranged tank). Helps to assign someone there, or DON'T use a ranged tank.
    - Unfortunate simultaneous fire cage/frozen spires timing. An AOE ranged helps a lot here, which was lacking.
    - Boss's health bars were not even. For the love of god, PLEASE pay attention to chat.

    On the contrary, most of the tanks and healers this time were outstanding. Several runs with not even one death.

    There, I think I'm done.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I was on Fire and Ice a few days ago with a few AT's that thought it was to hard.
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I've played F&I on both AT's and Hybrids. The Freeform hybrids fair best, simply because they are so adaptable.

    But to say the encounter isn't a challenge is a bit far fetched. Not everyone can tank Frosticus - even with the best of healers supporting them. Most people I talk to in game find the encounter fun. The only complaint I've ever heard was about how "grindy" the rampage encounters feel.

    I'm really not sure what the OP's original intent was. Is it a complaint about the lack of end game content in general. A rant against freeforms? Frustration with bad players in PUG's? Or a little bit of everything?
    Questions About AT Play? Visit Silverwolfx11's Updated AT Guides!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I remember playing Rorld of Rorcraft. When we first started doing a boss fight in a raid dungeon we had just started clearing, we'd be like ERMAGERD ITS SO HERD.

    Then like two weeks later we'd be demolishing the same boss and joking about how buff we were and how much of a pushover the boss was, doing his mechanics like clockwork while joking about the filthy outfits in that other mmo tera (which didn't exist yet, so probably something else).

    Then we would start clearing a new raid dungeon and the magical cycle would start over again.


    I'm sure I don't really need to say anything else to get this point across.
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