AT Damage vs FF Damage: Similar amount or still different?

nevan0vanen · February 2014

Allo everyone, and today...I ask for a curiosity that only vets for a while might had noted.

Long ago since I was around, I had read that AT Damage was strangely...'higher' than normal. As in, if you built a FF with the exact same build, stats, gear and role of an AT, SOMEHOW it lacks on damage versus it.

The basic question just falls on it, has that changed at all of recently? Is AT and FF damage about similar now or do they still have that drastic difference? Aaand at that, since I wasn't quite sure of it either looking around...just how large is that gap? How much of a percentage in damage is different or such, things like that.

With that, I thank the possible people who come over and help answering this. If not, at least have a nice day the ones who glanced and read this thread!

purin1 · February 2014

The damage difference is still very noticeable, with it being in the AT's favor.

By how much exactly, I am afraid I cannot tell you. An exact percentage would be even harder to come up with. All I know for sure is that it is easier to notice on heavy hitting powers like a Soldier's Sniper, Blade's Reaper's Embrace, Devastator's many charged powers, Unleashed's Dragon's Wrath, etc.

AT's can easily hit for twice as much as a FF in those situations from what I've seen as long as both hits are criticals when comparing. I still haven't had a chance to test it too deeply.

nevan0vanen · February 2014

Right then, thanks for the response. I guess it would be really just a percentage boost, if it is really more notable on stronger powers...alas, not quite important to talk of that now.

I do wonder though, if that damage boost is worth it in the end. As in, would you say it's fine to just go with a Blade over building a Single Blade FF, or not really worth it? Or any other AT that still works okay? Just simple curiosities to get my mind out of it, since I did got a FF Slot recently and I am juggling if to go and use it, or hold it for a bit later on for a different concept.

Mostly since my current interest is a Free AT, and just not sure if worth it or not. But who knows, might end up going FF Slot in the end...but I do wish some opinions on that all around.

Edit: Well well, weirdly timed post this one...

agentnx5 · February 2014

Purin beat me to it, but I can confirm this as well.

What it really comes down to is that Freeforms are soft-capped on max damage values where archetypes are not. That makes a huge difference, especially once critical hits are factored in.

This is a strongly anti-subscription design that makes no logical sense whatsoever (after all, Cryptic/PWE wants to sell subscriptions as it makes them money). Cryptic won't even acknowledge that this exists or that it's intentional or not. All we get is silence. And the question has been asked (although I'm not sure if anyone's asked Cryptic recently).

Where Freeforms have an advantage is that they can select better power choices that have more synergy, and energy unlock (if didn't have one), better stat choices, and pick up a self heal (if didn't have one). In other words, it's easy to make a freeform that is a Tank/DPS hybrid, but in hard-hitting burst-DPS an archetype can actually outperform freeforms even in spite of not having the optimal buffs, which I repeat: is illogical. The result is you see a lot of tank-ish freeforms (especially in PvP), as the reward for being a dedicated glass-canon doesn't justify the cost to survivability.

The only person I know of who could actually provide numeric values is Ayonachan (if they're still around), but as I recall they vary depending on the specific power in question. Which is probably why it's so hard to identify which layer of damage calculation order of operations the issue lies in specifically. I'm sorry, I do not have exact numbers to give you, only resulting observations.

somebob · February 2014

There is no flat damage difference because of how the differences are:

In short, FFs and ATs have different diminishing return scales (where you'll start seeing lesser of a gain by getting more Superstats or stacking more damage gain overall).

Yes, ATs can do more damage with the exact same powers that a FF can pick. But FFs are tons more survivable because of, well, being freeform, As such I'd pick them any day of the week.

Also, AFAIK, the devs have commented upon this - they just don't know what's causing it as it's not intended.

Will it get fixed? Who knows. All I know is that it won't change how I play CO - with Freeform characters.

nevan0vanen · February 2014

Ooookay then...well, at least I appreciate the rather thorough explanation and comments on the matter.

I do suppose then I am gonna be passing over to that FF Slot then, just to figure out how to build them that is...butaaahweell, that's the fun on itself. Thank you at least you three for answering on this topic!

ajanus · February 2014

If built EXACTLY the same way, ATs will do more damage.

If built PROPERLY, a FF will be leaps and bounds ahead of any AT.

prankenstein · February 2014

ajanus wrote: »

"If built PROPERLY, a FF will be leaps and bounds ahead of any AT."
"If the "Cannon" is strong enough, the "Glass" will never be questioned."

Could just be me, but it seems like your cute signature isn't actually what you think normally.

wimpazoid · February 2014

Should the difference be a concern? Simple answer, no.

It is noticeable in powerhouse in testing, yes. In actual practice while soloing, DPS measured falls considerably given how DPS ATs have to include recovery time, and they are the ones that really benefit from the difference.

Statistical testing also doesn't factor in how most of the ATs are more optimised by having to stat outside their superstats.

It is a matter of opinion, but for me, the bonus in damage compensates somewhat for many of the inadequacies of ATs including loss of superstats, and recovery time for health and energy.

ashensnow · February 2014

agentnx5 wrote: »

Purin beat me to it, but I can confirm this as well.

What it really comes down to is that Freeforms are soft-capped on max damage values where archetypes are not. That makes a huge difference, especially once critical hits are factored in.

This is a strongly anti-subscription design that makes no logical sense whatsoever (after all, Cryptic/PWE wants to sell subscriptions as it makes them money). Cryptic won't even acknowledge that this exists or that it's intentional or not. All we get is silence. And the question has been asked (although I'm not sure if anyone's asked Cryptic recently).

Where Freeforms have an advantage is that they can select better power choices that have more synergy, and energy unlock (if didn't have one), better stat choices, and pick up a self heal (if didn't have one). In other words, it's easy to make a freeform that is a Tank/DPS hybrid, but in hard-hitting burst-DPS an archetype can actually outperform freeforms even in spite of not having the optimal buffs, which I repeat: is illogical. The result is you see a lot of tank-ish freeforms (especially in PvP), as the reward for being a dedicated glass-canon doesn't justify the cost to survivability.

The only person I know of who could actually provide numeric values is Ayonachan (if they're still around), but as I recall they vary depending on the specific power in question. Which is probably why it's so hard to identify which layer of damage calculation order of operations the issue lies in specifically. I'm sorry, I do not have exact numbers to give you, only resulting observations.

A dev did acknowledge the matter at one point. Ame indicated that he would be looking into the cause, and then disappeared. (Coincidence ?!?!?!).

I too can confirm the matter as I had a freeform and AT using mostly the same build (the differences would not affect DPS). The AT out damaged the FF by a significant amount.

mlmii · February 2014

Not much more I can say that hasn't already been said, but I've been told that the bug is that something in the diminishing returns formula is being applied twice to FFs as opposed to ATs, but no-one is quite sure what it is... (Honestly as old as the bug is I don't think it will ever be fixed.)

However, something to note is that you very, very seldom see a FF (unless the player is brand new of course) asking for help finishing a mission. In my personal experience, the ATs that need help the most are the same ones that in theory are helped most by this bug, so by all means, play FF and ignore whatever number differences that may come about as it doesn't really matter.

twg042370 · February 2014

agentnx5 wrote: »

(after all, Cryptic/PWE wants to sell subscriptions as it makes them money).

I doesn't make them enough money to bother catering to. That's why they're a F2P company with lotto boxes now.

ayonachan · February 2014

Passive Damage bonuses diminish at different rates between Freeforms and Archetypes.

I know that Freeforms&Archetypes start to diminish at ~96% Total Passive damage bonuses but they do not differ until around 128%

Now an extremely old comparison:

ayonachan wrote: »

Archetypes 'do' have diminishing returns...

They just aren't on the same level as freeforms.

Squall is the perfect candidate to show how far of a gap we can make between Archetype and Freeform using a glass-cannon type.

Using the same exact powers, buffs, role, and stats and gear I get:

Rank 1 Typhoon has a base of 174-740 for both, archetypes and freeforms who are both in the ranged role(+25% multiplicative damage)

Typhoon has a 'base' base damage of 139-592

From there, adding in a small amount of additive damage boosts will make them both equal until you reach around 128%(for this specific power).

Having the freeform and archetype BOTH use the same 128% additive bonus damage yields:

324-1382 for the Freeform
335-1428 for the Archetype
396.15-1687.2 for the "Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns"

Rank 1 Typhoon w/ 551.7% Passive Damage Bonus + 25% Multiplicative(from Ranged Role Bonus)

Archetype:
1005-4286

Freeform:
631-2690

"Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns":
1132.33-4822.58

Rank 3 Typhoon w/ 551.7% Passive Damage Bonus + 25% Multiplicative(from Ranged Role Bonus)

Archetype:
1447-6172

Freeform:
908-3873

"Should-be-this-high-if-no-diminishing-returns":
1629.25-6940.61

No go out and be the best archetype glass-cannon you can be! Who cares if your survivability is limited along with your Super Stat choices you deal 12k(two 6k non-crit) damage with one specific fully-charged power!

Dear (Deity of choice) the quote font is extremely annoying on this forum..

ajanus · February 2014

prankenstein wrote: »

Could just be me, but it seems like your cute signature isn't actually what you think normally.

Actually, out of around 80 toons, I have 2 tanks and 1 healer, the rest are dps...so yes, I build most of my toons to be devastating "glass cannons." I try to fit in "just enough" defense to get things done and not a single power more than that. The rest is for pure offense. Back when Alerts first came out and they were all time-based, I really just took it upon myself to be the deciding factor everytime. After leveling probably around 40 toons to 40 through nothing but Alerts, I have only failed a few times to reach that 2-minute mark. Each fail made me wonder what I could have done better, so I usually just pulled something from defense and gave it to offense, which, in turn, has engineered some of my favorite builds so far.

I haven't done any Alerts since they neutered them, but it now seems a defensive passive is the current "way to go" since there really isn't a bar set for them, like the 2-minute ones.

AT Damage vs FF Damage: Similar amount or still different?

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