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The one thing Cryptic does that is very unfair.
spinnytop
Posts: 16,450 Arc User
Hello everyone,
You know what really bugs me? Comparisons. Specifically, comparing Champions Online to other games, and the way it always comes out on top. Hold on officer, don't slap those cuffs on me just yet, let me explain...
So I started playing Elsword. Fun little game, great mechanics, lots of wee! factor. But then when I got my 5th attack power, I discovered that to have more than 4 hotbar slots, I need to buy more in the cash shop. So I said okay whatever, I'll just go earn some cash shop currency by running content... oh wait, they don't let me do that. Well... that game just got significantly less fun didn't it?
That's not the first time that's happened, and I guarantee you it won't be the last. CO has an extremely generous in game currency system, to a degree that when I don't encounter it in other free2play games I go through a moment of shell shock. It's like going to an arcade and discovering that half the machines won't take the type of money you have. It instantly takes anything that was fun about the game and casts it in a dark light.
And darnit Cryptic, that's unfair o3o
N...no Sponge Bob... I said... I.... oh nevermind -_-
You know what really bugs me? Comparisons. Specifically, comparing Champions Online to other games, and the way it always comes out on top. Hold on officer, don't slap those cuffs on me just yet, let me explain...
So I started playing Elsword. Fun little game, great mechanics, lots of wee! factor. But then when I got my 5th attack power, I discovered that to have more than 4 hotbar slots, I need to buy more in the cash shop. So I said okay whatever, I'll just go earn some cash shop currency by running content... oh wait, they don't let me do that. Well... that game just got significantly less fun didn't it?
That's not the first time that's happened, and I guarantee you it won't be the last. CO has an extremely generous in game currency system, to a degree that when I don't encounter it in other free2play games I go through a moment of shell shock. It's like going to an arcade and discovering that half the machines won't take the type of money you have. It instantly takes anything that was fun about the game and casts it in a dark light.
And darnit Cryptic, that's unfair o3o
N...no Sponge Bob... I said... I.... oh nevermind -_-
Post edited by spinnytop on
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Interesting . . . I try to avoid craptacular free to play games, so I don't need to make such comparisons.
As someone with a lifetime sub, I never really cared about the free to play aspect of this game /shrug.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
How many of those original devs are working on CO, by the way?
Unless I am mistaken(entirely possible) the answer is 0-1. Raven "might" be working on CO from time to time. To my knowledge Lordgar and Crush came onto the scene after CO launched. The rest is Radio and his crew of X-Pirates at Cryptic North.
P.S. It might be 0-2 actually since I do recall seeing Drannic on PTS a few times late last year. When CO went live he was a GM(yes yes they did exist, I haz screenies) though and not a dev. Since then he has moved up through the ranks of QA(don't laugh) and is rumored to be a dev not but I'm uncertain as to where he's a dev. Could be CO. <shrugs>
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
What a coincidence. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about ~_^
Exactly. CO trounces the competition when it comes to actually being free to play... and it's quite unfair, cause a lot of those other games are genuinely fun... right up until you ram into the pay wall.
It's even less fair because the way they do it here, even if I'm a completely unpaid player, I still help contribute to making the company money because whenever I convert questionite into Zen I'm helping to finalize a monetary transaction that another player made. How are other games supposed to compete with that?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
There are certainly much worse f2p games out there, and maybe STO is impossibly better than most others.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Other games charge you for specific expansions, new powers, now zones, but so far I haven't seen another game that locks you out of the real fun that is FFs unless you sub.
I like the fact that everything CAN be bought with ingame currency though, even if soimetimes it's not worth it.
I play This game and Neverwinter, and I have to say ins Neverwinter is makes much less difference if you pay or not than it does here. Of course I can't really compare because NW was a free to play game from the beginning, and CO wasn't. Also NW doesn't have a subbing option. But I think that just having *some*AT?s for free players doesn't cut it. Either have ALL at's for free and FFs for paying customers, or ditch the FF system altogether and have some AT's for free and some AT's to be bought, (of course subbed people would get them all)
Really, though, I can't fault Cryptic too much for creating ATs for free to play people. There's variety in character creation, even with the limits of a more restrictive power-set, and, heck, all of them aren't too terrible. (The F2P ones mind you. *Glares at The Savage*) Behemoth is great, Marksman is great, Soldier is tons of fun.
If everything was given out for free, there'd be no incentive to subscribe, meaning no long-term dedicated consumer base. Making all the ATs free would be fantastic, and would work fine, yes, but people will still find some way to criticize things, somehow.
Ditching the FF system is NOT something I'd recommend, even if the intentions behind such an action are good, because of how fantastic it is. I play CO (and subscribe) because of the freedom I have in making a character exactly how I want them to be, right down to each power's advantage, to the power colors, to the fingernail/toenail colors.
I do think having freeforms available at such a high price is kinda... not-good, though. It feels like it was planned just to encourage more people to subscribe, rather than pay a ludicrous amount of money for one character slot.
Looking for a lore-based Superhero RPSG? Why not http://earth-guard.shivtr.com/?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As for this game, i do feel that it has a wonderful free to play model, and the 16000Q a day is a great thing, especially since we only get 8000 as the base in Star trek, and i'm not sure what NW is pulling. The Problem here though, is that everything is way too expensive for how little it's actually worth. What is it, $40 for a single Freeform slot? $12-15 for a single poorly made vehicle? $11.50 for a power tree?
That's entirely way too expensive for how little development this game gets. Granted it has improved slightly under Cryptic North, but when all you're getting is lock boxes and a mission here or there, it's not worth the money, or the time to earn that much Q. I know they explained WHY we're not getting new power sets, but as a superhero MMO, that should be what we get regardless of what's going on. we should be alternating between power sets and missions with costumes in between. As much as i don't like lockboxes, they're not going away, so they might as well just keep doing those as they are.
i feel that even on STO, the F2P model isn't as good even though they have more development to make it worth while, as well as their vehicles being one per character rather than one per purchase. I do feel the ships should be cheaper though if they don't give everyone the faction version though as it seems a bit greedy to charge double for an extra skin for the same vehicle layout.
Neverwinter's model by far just seems like everything i hate about Cryptic's new direction though and it really does seem to "Encourage" you to spend money or time to buy basic things from the cash shop.
Compared to elsewhere, Champions still has a pretty great F2P Model, i just wish the game was getting proper development rather than just a feeling of life support.
The difference is, in other games, they wouldn't even give you the option of farming to get it. Compared to that, the price of a FF slot is miniscule.
Even a paying customer doesn't have to pay 50$ if they don't want to.
Let's try to stay on topic please
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The point is, that unless you're subbed, you're in a big disadvantage against paying customers. And that makes the current system not very fair.
Seriously what is the point of all this?
If you want to spend money so badly then just buy something from the Zen-Store..
I cant believe you are complaining about Cryptic being "generous"...
wow.. just wow...
Just a little sarcastic joke, yo.
The thing is not everyone reads this as a joke, and by the title it may looks like a defaming topic towards PWE/Cryptic/CO.
*especially people who may dont speak a good english could misinterprete this thread.
*the creator could have added a line at the bottom that the post is meant to be a joke.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
thats your opionion defending your defaming post...
It's reasonable because you don't have to pay it with actual cash. It's reasonable because you can pay by playing the game... being paid to play a video game sounds reasonable to me!
How are they at a disadvantage?
I'm free2play 100% of the way and I have subscribers complaining about me being overpowered compared to them...
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That is true, ive seen him on kagami in nemcon runs he did good^^
im also silver user and the only disdvantage is not being able to color my powers
So what "advantage" does any given Gold player have over me?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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propably only the 500 zen each month
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
That's the besssssssst.
and to get your 500zen per month, you fork out $15.
How much can you farm on your silver acct? without forking out $15 per month
FF slots
$15 per month to RENT FF slots
$50 to BUY one.
You stop paying rent, you can't use the slots,you buy it. Regardless of what your acct is, you can use it
That is the price difference
characters ease of leveling?
My FF with no gear had 139 deaths till L40,(that's leveled with no gear, becomes, vehicles or devices)
My Grimoire At with no gear had 149 deaths till L40. Mainly due to how little healing Vala's light does with base stats.
Hold on officer, don't slap that white coat on me just yet, let me explain...
fixed that for you :biggrin:
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Where did you die?
in alerts sometime happens.. but only once in like 15 rounds
i leveled my Grimoire without gear ( only what i get from missions ) with only 3 deaths to lvl 40 on elite difficulity , lvl from 0-23 with mission then on alerts
Freeform is not an advantage of being a Gold member. Many silvers have it as well ^_^
Sidenote: People should send Jonsills questionite crates until he has enough zen to buy a freeform slot, that way in 2 years or so he can have the fun of being a level 40 FF
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You mean players who make some kind of monetary investment in the game are actually getting advantages, as in something in return for that investment, compared to players who don't pay for anything?
That's just unfair!
Only when you compare to other games and their dissimilar systems. In Marvel Heroes, for example, money only buys convenience. Everything available in the cash shop can be farmed for (eventually). Gazillion are making all their money on the correct assumption that most players want instant gratification.
CO, being a game that was converted from a sub format to F2P, has gone a different route, one which does inherently create a caste system of haves and have-nots. I don't have a problem with that (being one of the haves), but that doesn't preclude the fact that Cryptic/PWE could have gone with a system more similar to Gaz's.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say: Auras. Don't worry, Cryptic is putting effort into making money, and at the same time making sure not to compromise their core values or the strong draws their game has
Remember, the questionite->zen system is actually making them money. Every time I convert questionite into 100 zen, that's a dollar the company just finalized on ^_^
I've never paid. Does that make me one of the have nots? Cause um.... for a have not, I sure have a lot
Actually no they're not... unless you consider being able to color your powers to be a strategic advantage o.o (which technically it can be since you might mistake one power for another due to the color)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not letting most f2p players experience that substantially lessens the potential to gain new players, and lowers the retention of established players.
Note that my objection would be mostly eliminated if purchased FF slots included emanations and power coloring. As it is, Silver are always second class citizens.
In another type of game I might feel otherwise. If this were a D&D game, coloring fire attacks would be very much a cosmetic element to the game.
But western supers games are, by history, strongly driven by customization.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Compared to having unlimited freeforms? Yeah, you're missing out on a lot. It's great that you're having a worthwhile experience as a Silver, but there's much more to be had from the game.
Considering you admit that you've never paid, I don't believe you have the experience necessary to make a reasoned argument. That's not an insult, just the truth.
I'm pretty sure you're aware that there's more to it than just power colorization.
Not being Gold means only a few thing for me personally:
i cannot change my power colors or HOW i use them ie. hand , fist , head....
i dont get a retcon token and a free character slots when i hit level 40...
i dont get free costume slots after every 10 levels...
Ok.. is it an disdvantage in PvE? No....in PvP ? No... in RP not even there... maybe it bothers me a but because im stuck with the colors..
But over all i have no disvdantage ...
P.S. but id love to ATLEAST select 1 one color that ALL my powers will use...that would be cool...^^
Yes, there's a few costume pieces, and a higher daily questionite refining limit. Those aren't really advantages that paying players have over non-paying ones though, unless you're using a really loose definition of "advantage".
I can easily imagine what it would be like to have unlimited freeforms. It would be a nightmare... I could barely think up 4 of them, and the 4th one was painful to drag through the leveling process yet again, and despite having only 4 Freeform characters, I don't even actively use all of my freeforms. Also keep in mind, that even with 1 Freeform Slot, a player does in fact have unlimited freeforms... all they have to do is delete/retcon that freeform, and make a new one; using that method, a free player can effectively play all potential builds available in the game.
Face it, the "much more to be had from the game" you're referring to boils down to power colors, a few costume pieces, and a higher daily refining limit. Everything else can be acquired without paying.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
ill admit, one thing that i think this thread illustrates is how different this game looks when you run expectations from a free to play mindset from a pay mindset. I dont play free games, because they are significantly lower quality, so looking at this game from the perspective of games I played were sub based and had a much higher expectation of quality, so how "free to play" a game is is only a negative for me, because it shows how little i can actually expect in terms of content and quality. I lifetimed a long time ago, but if not i would have subbed, because I would never put up with the grind hell of questionite farming. its worth the past investment to me to be able to log in and do whatever i want with no requirement to grind out a few missions that, while fun at times, i can ignore when im not in the mood. plus, the stipend makes the c store stuff effectively free, and with last yeah and a half's drought of content, i have stacks of paper.
when I say no gear, I mean NO gear. At all.
NO primaries,
No secondaries.
Nothing
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=250401
I was using a heck of a lot of healing drinks.
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Oh i thought we speak of normal players who join the game as silvers using only what they get for free oO
Freeform is definitely one. Removal of the global cap is also one. Having more than 2 character slots too. An extra 2 inventory slots is also nice.
It's not just about "strategic" advantages as you put it.
If there certain aspects of subscription that a player feels enhances their gameplay experience significantly then yes, "much more to be had from the game" certainly applies here.
Freeform is not an advantage exclusive to paying players, and hasn't been for a while.
Having more character slots is not an advantage exclusive to paying players, and hasn't been since the game went F2P.
What you are describing are conveniences, not advantages. Having no global cap does not give anyone an advantage over me. Yes, subscribers get more conveniences than non-subscribers, which is exactly as it should be.
The "much more" however, isn't very much at all. It would be more correct to say "there are a few things you can access only by paying, but the vast majority of the game's features can be accessed without ever spending any money; spending money simply gets those features to you faster"
Nobody was arguing whether subbing was worth it or not.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I wasn't talking about advantages over other people. I was talking about advantages as general benefits to the individual that come with paying for them.
Ah I see, the problem then is that you lost the context of the conversation. To refresh your memory, this is the comment that lead to this entire line of debate:
It specifically states "a big disadvantage against paying customers".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Does it truly matter if it's perceived as a personal advantage exclusively gotten by going gold, or feeling that they're at a disadvantage as a comparison to gold players who have those benefits?
This is an argument of semantics at this point. The bottom line is that yes, it shouldn't be considered unfair when you feel you're being short-changed if you don't go gold as opposed to staying silver. That's the point of the system. You get what you pay for.
From a F2P standpoint, yes, Champions is okay. Sure, there are better models out there, such as STO or even Rift (by far one of the best F2P offerings), but you have to also bear in mind that unlike some of the craptastic F2P games out there that push hard as heck to nickle and dime you, such as the one you mentioned, or even Neverwinter, CO was originally designed with the subscription in mind.
In that regard, its transition to F2P wasn't too bad. At least it isn't SWTOR F2P.
That said, though, it'd also be fair to compare the subscription side of CO: what you get for a subscription, and the amount of updates the game gets as a subscription. In that regard, even when you compare it to other subscription/F2P offerings out there (so, we remove WoW from the equation), and even look to Rift or DCUO to name a quick two, Champions falls way behind and becomes less of a comparison value.
So, if we look at your post as well as my opinion of the subscription side, are we saying that Champions Online is okay to play for free when compared to other free games, but not worth subscribing to when compared to other subscription games?