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Rank 8 & 9 core mods need improvement
agentnx5
Posts: 1,999 Arc User
The no-so-long-ago testing with the Justice Gear and the +99 effect for the rank 9 mods got me thinking about rank 8 and rank 9 mods in general. I sent this to TrailTurtle initially in a PM, but seeing as no reply ever came I've taken to paraphrasing and putting it in a new topic, placing it where the idea was started. This topic is specifically about the cores, not regular stat mods, just to clarify from the start.
In fact, some like the Impact Prisms there is literally no difference between a R8 and R9 on the defense value. This isn't good design from a sales standpoint. And 9600 Q to remove a Rank 9? Well it must be really great right? In reality? Not so much...
Formatting notes:
Impact Prisms:
[Impact Prism 7] -- 69 Offense -- 20 Defense --- 95 Cooldown Reduction -- ~200g to 300g (price rising)
[Impact Prism 8] -- 71 Offense -- 21 Defense --- 99 Cooldown Reduction -- ~1000g
[Impact Prism 9] -- 74 Offense -- 21 Defense -- 102 Cooldown Reduction -- ~2400g
Growth Amulets:
[Growth Amulet 7] -- 24 Primary Super Stat -- 690 Maximum HP -- 14 Maximum Energy -- ~100g
[Growth Amulet 8] -- 25 Primary Super Stat -- 714 Maximum HP -- 15 Maximum Energy -- ~500g
[Growth Amulet 9] -- 25 Primary Super Stat -- 739 Maximum HP -- 15 Maximum Energy -- ~2000g
Gambler's Gems:
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 7] --- 97 Critical Strike -- 143 Dodge Chance --- 95 Cost Discount -- ~300g (price dropping)
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 8] -- 100 Critical Strike -- 148 Dodge Chance --- 99 Cost Discount -- ~1500g (price dropping)
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 9] -- 103 Critical Strike -- 153 Dodge Chance -- 102 Cost Discount -- ~4000g (price dropping)
Sentinel's Brooches:
[Sentinel's Brooch 7] -- 29% Bonus Healing -- 48 Crowd Control Resistance -- 48 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
[Sentinel's Brooch 8] -- 30% Bonus Healing -- 49 Crowd Control Resistance -- 49 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
[Sentinel's Brooch 9] -- 31% Bonus Healing -- 51 Crowd Control Resistance -- 51 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
What I propose?
As there are already diminishing returns in effect, core mods need to have their numeric effects increased, enough to make it worth it anyways. And extra 3% healing, or 5 defense, etc etc. Buff these numbers up, make it worth our while to actually buy a Rank Up catalyst.
How does this help players?
This would be good for Cryptic as well in two ways:
1. Promotes sales of Rank Up catalysts (which are expensive! $30 for a R8-->R9 catalyst!) Sales translates into revenue to get other needed things done (unless of course the money just goes to Neverwinter or Star Trek...), but this is actually a good thing for all of us in the long run.
2. Gives players an ability to enhance their characters if they wish to invest enough, which in leiu of the dodge gear nerfing would help assuage some of the complaining while keeping within the design changes that prompted the dodge nerf in the first place. Customization, is a good thing, and this helps support your character.
PS: It would be really nice if we could get a rank-able/fusible Critical Severity core. Gentleman Crush said in his last blog entry that we should be able to choose between Offense and Criticals right? Well, let us choose, let us have fusible severity cores!
Why bother with rank 8 or 9 mods? It costs more Questionite to remove, and you don't gain much of anything over a rank 7 mod.
In fact, some like the Impact Prisms there is literally no difference between a R8 and R9 on the defense value. This isn't good design from a sales standpoint. And 9600 Q to remove a Rank 9? Well it must be really great right? In reality? Not so much...
Here's a quick remind on what the numerical value are:
Formatting notes:
- (name -- offense slot effect -- defense slot effect -- utility slot effect -- nominal AH market price)
- (the increases in some are so miniscule after the "Cryptic math" and diminishing returns that most don't even amount to a 1% increase!)
- (red text = unchanged value for ranking up, this is a mistake that needs to be fixed ASAP!)
Impact Prisms:
[Impact Prism 7] -- 69 Offense -- 20 Defense --- 95 Cooldown Reduction -- ~200g to 300g (price rising)
[Impact Prism 8] -- 71 Offense -- 21 Defense --- 99 Cooldown Reduction -- ~1000g
[Impact Prism 9] -- 74 Offense -- 21 Defense -- 102 Cooldown Reduction -- ~2400g
Growth Amulets:
[Growth Amulet 7] -- 24 Primary Super Stat -- 690 Maximum HP -- 14 Maximum Energy -- ~100g
[Growth Amulet 8] -- 25 Primary Super Stat -- 714 Maximum HP -- 15 Maximum Energy -- ~500g
[Growth Amulet 9] -- 25 Primary Super Stat -- 739 Maximum HP -- 15 Maximum Energy -- ~2000g
Gambler's Gems:
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 7] --- 97 Critical Strike -- 143 Dodge Chance --- 95 Cost Discount -- ~300g (price dropping)
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 8] -- 100 Critical Strike -- 148 Dodge Chance --- 99 Cost Discount -- ~1500g (price dropping)
[Gambler's Lucky Gem 9] -- 103 Critical Strike -- 153 Dodge Chance -- 102 Cost Discount -- ~4000g (price dropping)
Sentinel's Brooches:
[Sentinel's Brooch 7] -- 29% Bonus Healing -- 48 Crowd Control Resistance -- 48 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
[Sentinel's Brooch 8] -- 30% Bonus Healing -- 49 Crowd Control Resistance -- 49 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
[Sentinel's Brooch 9] -- 31% Bonus Healing -- 51 Crowd Control Resistance -- 51 Crowd Control Strength -- ???
What I propose?
As there are already diminishing returns in effect, core mods need to have their numeric effects increased, enough to make it worth it anyways. And extra 3% healing, or 5 defense, etc etc. Buff these numbers up, make it worth our while to actually buy a Rank Up catalyst.
How does this help players?
- If you wish to maximize your hero but never felt R9 was worth it, well now here's a reason
- You don't need to amplify your character this much, power choices are still superior as they should be, thanks to diminishing returns. But if you want to diversify your build a bit and not sacrifice too much of a mod slot to do so, now you'd be able to. This adds build diversity in a big way, accessible to all players and not restricted to lockboxes. Guaranteed quantifiable results, no gambling needed.
- If you were on the high-end of the gear and got totally burned by this recent dodge nerf patch, this would justify things a bit.
This would be good for Cryptic as well in two ways:
1. Promotes sales of Rank Up catalysts (which are expensive! $30 for a R8-->R9 catalyst!) Sales translates into revenue to get other needed things done (unless of course the money just goes to Neverwinter or Star Trek...), but this is actually a good thing for all of us in the long run.
2. Gives players an ability to enhance their characters if they wish to invest enough, which in leiu of the dodge gear nerfing would help assuage some of the complaining while keeping within the design changes that prompted the dodge nerf in the first place. Customization, is a good thing, and this helps support your character.
PS: It would be really nice if we could get a rank-able/fusible Critical Severity core. Gentleman Crush said in his last blog entry that we should be able to choose between Offense and Criticals right? Well, let us choose, let us have fusible severity cores!
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Post edited by agentnx5 on
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Just a slight bump in their stats would be enough to get folks to chase these things, buy the catalysts, etc.
CO doesn't have much endgame grind. We have some high-Q cost items, and Legion gear requires keys or G (from auction house). There are also the 5000 kill perks. Many players don't like endgame grind, but many players do. Some relish the chance at slogging through some task to get a slight bonus, a vanity item, another costume unlock, etc.
Slightly improving the R9 mods would be a benefit to the game by throwing a bone to a segment of the player base.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Even if it was made a little easier to get R9 mods I likely would not bother unless it happened by more or less by accident when playing through new content. I farmed my way to R7 before the addition of vehicle mods; I don't want to think about how much more annoying it would be now with the diluted drop tables (assuming the current mod fusing system in CO).
Such a change would not encourage me to buy catalysts since I think they're absurdly priced.
Anyway, take my opinions on this with a grain of salt as I'm likely not the target demographic for these suggested changes since I rarely log into CO these days (usually just to chat and/or mess with costume stuffs) and am burned out on farming for mods.
The damn things are over half way to a FF slot, which is actually useful and much more fun to have. That and there's barely a reason to bother with r7 mods over r5.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
If the games going to rely on the cash shop, need to make the cash shop items worth it, so people will buy them more!
I'd suggest that we get a new core type, with Crit Severity on Offense, Knock Resistance on Defense, and Knock Strength on Utility, since the only way to get Knock Resistance is to super-stat STR. However, that would require Cryptic to fix Knock Resistance in the first place.
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*droooools*
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You... Use rank 8 and 9 mods..? 0.o
OKAY THEN
I have a few rank 8 CON mods on one character that were given to me, it all seems a bit high of a price to get 2 more CON though if you ask me.
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I am all for making these better but I do agree they are a tad unnecessary (simply because there is high diminishing value on them)
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You benefit "a lot" from them? You're going to have to explain how you managed to break diminishing returns to do that, the rest of us would love to know :biggrin:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If you really want to make R8 and R9 more worthwhile, I would say no. Not unless they change the fusing system and give us at least R7 drops at max lvl content.
To craft an r9 you need:
5x R8 = 25x R7 = 125x R6 =625x R5
And that is assuming you do not lose one during fusing, which would need a rather massive amount of catalysts. I do not even know how bad the fusing rate gets, I think it is 40% for R6 -> R7. And that is all for one mod. You have up to 12 with legion gear.
No what if you use the zen store upgrades? Well let us start at r7 this time, it is bad enough from here.
You need
R7->R8 2400 zen
R8->R9 3000 zen
That is 5400 zen for one mod. If you want 12 you pay 64800 zen. So 648$ for one full legion char. That is like two lifetime subscriptions.
The price of R8 and R9 mods is simply too high, no matter if you buy or farm them. If you really play that game long enough it is possible to get yourself a few, but for any new or casual player it would be a nightmare.
So I would say the mods are fine as they are. R9 and R8 are simply more a prestige/collector sort of thing.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Where to begin with the nay-sayers...?
How about no.
1. Given your post history, odds are this isn't a serious post, just flamebait. (and you got Gradii with it, so success for you I guess). This isn't the topic for such immature shenanigans, please.
2. If I were to take you seriously, I'd point out that there are people who have (mostly out of boredom mixed with a desire to take their favorite character(s) to their max, reasons may vary among individuals) maxed out with Rank 8's and Rank 9's. That'd be a titanic stab in the back to simply delete that from the servers, at least not without refunding 5400 Zen for each mod they revert back to level 7. Although that'd be the fair thing to do, I don't see that happening and I'd hope Cryptic would be THAT bad to stab loyal players in the back (although they've kind of done that before, which worries me). Bottom-line is that the 10 mod system (rank 0 to 9) isn't a bad design per se; it doesn't need to be deleted, just fixed. Thus I'm asking for them to fix the high-end so people are motivated to bother with it. If you had bothered to show me respect enough to actually read my opening post for comprehension, you'd know this. So yeah, my tone with you at the moment is a direct result of your lack of respect towards me.
This is about the game as a whole and making adjustments that would both encourage people to go above level 5 to 7 mods and make rank up catalysts worth the extreme price. Let's be blunt here, MOST players in this game have ZERO reason to go for high-end mods. Even in PvP. I feel, from observed experience as well as the data, that has to change, especially when you consider that the cores in particular do not give any significant benefit. And the best part? This is least likely to be game breaking. It's not like I'm asking for Eruption's invincibility, or the Become Celestial's resurrection, or Gravity Pulse Mark 2 to get buffed more, or lowering cooldowns on Backup devices. What I'm asking is something logical, common-sense, and adaptable and accessible to everyone's uniquely diverse character builds should they chose to got for the max. And your response? Mockery.
The math is against you on this, and math unlike even the best formed opinions is a matter of FACT.
In short, you're simply incorrect. There isn't a "lot" of benefit. It's insignificant to zero benefit!
Perhaps this is just an example of the placebo effect?
Let's just use one example, do you know how much defense benefit is gained between R7, and R8, and R9 Impact Prism cores? Even when factored into Fortified Gear R3 and The Best Defense R3? After diminishing returns?
R7 v. R8 ? <1% Resistance to All Damage, ~1% Offense %
R7 v. R9 ? No gains! Really.
Both of these I find unacceptable, and a lack of foresight on Cryptic's developers who chose those numeric values.
FYI: I'll remind you I'm talking about cores in this topic, not the 16 "normal" stat mod types which could have alternate effects on things like toggle forms, energy unlocks, stat bonuses (i.e. CON's benefit to HP is linear), or particular advantage point effects. And even those benefit with +99 to all stats is minimal once you factor in diminishing returns! How do I know this? I actually tested in detail on the PTS with the Justice Gear. There was a gain for +99 stat mods, but it wasn't game breaking.
We might debate on whether or not the effects of the 16 stat mods need increasing too, but with cores there is no solid argument against this given how hard it is to fuse them (or how expensive to buy Rank Up catalysts for them).
Way to contradict yourself...
And no, they are absolutely NOT fine as they are. 100% strong disagreement.
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I'm absolutely serious on this. I believe you when you say that there are people who have fused their way up to rank 9; however, anyone who actually paid for catylists to get past Rank 7 is clearly happy to just throw their money away. They spent their money on nothing, and they would be losing nothing if the rank 8 and 9 mods were suddenly turned to rank 7 mods.
Or hell, just remove the ability to fuse past Rank 7, get rid of those ridiculous catylists in the cash shop, and let anyone who has 8s and 9s right now keep them... because again, wouldn't actually make a noticeable difference. The only difference that I can see is that I would no longer be able to make people in other MMOs gasp in shock when I tell them how much a 7-8 and 8-9 catylists cost compared to the actual in game benefit it gives. Twenty four bucks for nothing? Fifty four bucks for nothing? It's the most ridiculous thing ever, and it wasn't even mentioned in that list of most ridiculous cash shop items that IGN put out...
On the other hand, making rank 8 and 9 mods give a stat boost in line with the effort required to get them would be noticeable, and in a bad way. One, we were, and still are, already too strong compared to NPCs in this game... they just nerfed us... we can't expect them to send our potential power level right back up. The second reason? Once those R8 and R9 mods are worth it, it effectively becomes that gear grind thing that CO has been able to avoid for so long, and that's something we don't need nor want.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not really. I admit that it makes no sense to have the same stats on an R8 and an R9 mod. It makes no logical sense to fuse 5 mods and have the exact same stats. But the solution I would have, like give the R9 22 defense would not really impact anything. So it would be more a cosmetic correction.
So I think it should be changed to 22 out of principle but I am realist enough to see it won't have a gameplay impact, so no idea if thats worth the effort.
Again, I agree they should be changed out of principle, but I am unsure if principle is enough to justify someone taking the time changing it. So I acknowledge a problem but I rate it as not important enough to warrant too much attention. There is no contradiction there, in my head at least.
As to say if they are fine in general:
I am absolutely against locking real game-changeing gear behind an epic amount of money/grind. So unless they make R8 and R9 mods more reachable, they are fine.
I am not against buffing the cores if we get a way to earn them in a reasonable amount of time.
So if they increase the fuse chance and mobs start dropping R7 I would have no problem with buffing high end cores. And also remove a 0 form the rank up catalyst price.
The cost/benefit ratio of R8 and R9 cores the moment is very bad. The problem is the cost is so damn hight that giving them a real benefit would simply create huge balancing issues, in my opinion.
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Not at all. You say R7 is just find. Well then, stop grinding for higher rank mods. R7 is enough. Just because others went on to get R8 and R9 doesn't mean YOU have to go that far.
But if we're to take it as you said it, why not suggest getting rid of all gear and mods?
I don't. Why would I? R7 is enough, R8 and R9 are pointless. That's kind of the entire basis for what I said...but thanks for the repeat?
I agree with this idea completely. Get rid of gear and mods. Take all the various stat points we got from gear and integrate them into the character creation system instead.
Agree 100%.
I find it interesting seeing people who I have previously seen speak out against gear ladders and grinds who are suddenly in favor of a mod grind.
Also the prices of the catalysts are ridiculous... but if you lower the price to a reasonable amount (which is a huge drop in price) then the people who bought them in the past (and even people who didn't buy them but are getting outraged on behalf of those who did) will throw a fit... so just get rid of them alltogether says I before we end up on yet another "Most Outrageous Cash Shop Items" list...
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I think he's trying to say that if R7s are enough then fixing R8s & R9s can't cause any balance problems since only the players that are extremely OCD about having the highest numbers will bother getting them. And the boosts to R8s and R9s wouldn't really be big enough to counteract DR anyway, you'd probably end up with a net bonus of 1% at best.
Meh, just port over the NWO fusing system and leave catalysts ridiculously expensive. All the benefits of fixing the Catalyst pricing, but without the whining.
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That's the problem though... when folks say "fix R8 and R9 mods" they don't mean "slightly increase the stats but not enough to make a difference". Then again, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt assuming that's not what they mean... because what a pointless thing to ask for that would be.
The assumption is that they are asking that R8 and R9 mods be given a big enough boost that having them would make a noticeable difference.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
*loosing patience*
Why do I get the feeling you're blowing smoke at my face? Here's one of two possible subtexts I'm reading from your post I just quoted (one assuming the most selfish negative, one assuming the most selfless positive):
Cynical translation: "I don't want to spend money or take the time and effort into getting better stuff, I want it handed to me on a silver platter for free! I'm a have-not, shut up and give me my free **** now devs! I don't care if it costs money to run a business, this is about me and my own wants & desires"
Empathetic translation: "I don't want this game to become too much pay-to-win, because in the long run this damages the player population such that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, which in turn leads to a smaller playerbase, power creep, and microtransaction price inflation. I understand that there needs to be a balance between too much pay-to-win and not enough stuff people want to actually strive for or want to buy."
I hope for heaven's sake you're objections are coming from concern to the community and not selfishness. I'm beginning to feel like your shortsightedness is a combination of selfishness and lack on experience with this game's mechanics.
Nothing I've asked for in this topic is game breaking. And even you tried to argue that it was, all I'd have to do is point to things like Ice Grenades, Advanced Hyperkinetic Dampening Field 2, Gravity Pulse 2, Strafing Run combos, etc. and nothing any of the these gear mods do will even come close to comparing.
If we assume the best empathic translation on the subtext between your words, then I must stress we are out of balance currently, on the side of not people not wanting to strive for the maximum or pay the prices for Rank Up catalysts.
So when we get down to it, what you're really getting at is that you want the balance on the side of charity as far away from pay to win as possible. You want more stuff for free. That'd be nice in an ideal world, but the truth is Crypic is NOT a charity, it's a business. Don't like it. TOO BAD! We don't live in ideal world. I'm sorry.
In short, I find your logic to be lacking sensibility and full of fear of the unknown, and I mean that. I'm worried for you, and I promise what I'm proposing isn't a threat to you.
I think you have the right general idea, but knock resistance in of itself isn't the issue. What you propose would actually cause far more issues than it resolves...
Try this instead?
Each of these are small values, but if you take the time to rank up to R8 or R9 the effect should be quite noticeable indeed. Why should it be? Because it's very hard and/or expensive to rank up to R7+, that's kind of my point (along with the fact that many things on cores as they are give 0% or at best a 1% increase, which is pathetic)
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Basically the amount of farming required for a full set of R9 mods is beyond my current threshold of pain given the lack of interesting things to do to acquire mods. The amount of money required for a full set of mods is beyond what I am willing to pay even though I only have one character I play regularly kitted with R7s.
I don't want things handed to me on a silver platter. I like a challenge. I like interesting gameplay. I like new content.
What I don't like is spending literally days (or more) of in game time farming the same insignificant trash mobs for mods. Even if it took the same amount of time to get a full set of R9 mods I would not mind as much if the content to get them was compelling!
It's a little outdated since Legion gear was not released at the time but I feel this video is still very relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoN7-CWinVA
Personally I fear for the gaming industry if they think it's alright to gouge their customers out of $600+ per character assuming starting from R7, which isn't an insignificant amount of time devoted to farming either.
And my personal opinion is a cash shop should always be as far away from pay to win as possible. Charge for fun and fluff, not stuff.
I have no problem spending money on this game. I, in fact, do spend money. I have my LTS and I do purchase additional zen from time to time. I have never asked for them to give me stuff for free.
The problem is simply this: the cost of the high cores is irrational. There is no real way to justify them without a significant boost. Give them a little increase will not change anything. So you either end up making a mostly cosmetic change or you create a new tier of gear.
To get my R7 to R9 with catalysts I would have to spend 5400zen. That are 60 keys. That is simply insanity. To justify that pricing a single core would have to have more impact than wearing 3 pieces of legion gear.
And the grind to fuse them is just too much. There is not even much end game content you can grind. What do you want a new player to see? Well there is not really much you can do at max lvl, but you still have to beat up some mobs for a year if want great gear. Yes I think that will increase the playerbase.
Also do not worry for me, while I do not presently own any R8 or R9 mods I have no doubt I could get them for my main pvp char. So if they would truly end up making them powerful I would not really suffer myself. But asking them to buff something I can afford and many can not, that would just be selfish.
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First, the game does not give you R8 or R9 mods. If you have any of them it is because you either bought them, or crafted them. If someone had gotten a drop and is now sad because it turns out, it is rather useless, I could understand that.
But everyone who got high end mods at the moment got them on purpose and saw what he was getting.
So if you just look at the mods and think: that is some wasted potential, let's make them useful. In that case there is a simple idea:
- Give people one random R7 mod for completing a lair
- Maybe add the chance of R7 mods to world bosses
- You could also consider them as rare drops from custom alert bosses
-Increase the fusing chance of high end mods
Now you can buff R8 and R9 ones. You still need to get at least 25 R7 to get an R9. And you need to get the type you want. And considering the number of mods slots that is considerable grind still. But now it is kind of doable and you even give players a reason to do some of the content. Also since they are tradeable you can just farm globals, or buy catalysts from the zen store. By chopping of a zero of their price one would pay 540 zen to get a R7 mod to R9. That is still quite expensive for one mod but at least it is in a realistic price range now.
That means R8 and R9 are useful now, people got a reason to play some of the content and cryptic might make some money from it. Something along these lines would be reasonable suggestion to me.
Simply buff R8 and R9? What will that do? It makes the few who can afford them more powerful. It further widens the gap between new players and vets. The bigger this gap gets the harder it is to actually balance content. Further it would be a nightmare for new player to catch up. Seeing something that will take you ages to get is not a good motivation. Worse there is not even real end game content to farm mods. You can run burst alerts and beat up mobs in the world, but thats about it.
It would buff a few, would be a punch in the face for most and cryptic would not really make money out of it. Not with the current catalyst prices.
That is my opinion.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
The difference between the two is nil. But the price of getting them is insane!
I just don't get it. :rolleyes:
I'd be ok with this, but does it really solve the fact that there's either no incentive or nearly no incentive for ranking up past R7?
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I don't really see much wrong with this personally as I'd rather see the game running with high prices for optional gambles than the game shutting down.
As for the fact mods don't get better at all, it really is rather ridiculous. Although this is only one thing in CO that needs an overhaul after being badly designed or built.
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That would make them much better imo.
Also, like a previous posters idea of putting other bonuses onto the MODS if they're not going to just raise the +STAT per rank up to +5 per rank...even +4 would be an improvement.
Though +Knock Resist that actually was useful wouldn't be bad.