Why must Force be such a headache?

raighn · January 2014

Been taking some time to go back and look at some of my older and less played characters, trying to improve their builds and in some cases make their builds playable... one of those cases is my Force heroine, Pulse. I've been trying to put something together for her that will work nicely... and I cant come up with much of anything...

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Pulse

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Ego (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Impulse
Level 6: Brilliant
Level 9: Indomitable
Level 12: Tireless
Level 15: Negotiator
Level 18: Academics
Level 21: Wordly

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts
Level 1: Force Blast
Level 6: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Level 8: Personal Force Field (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Force Eruption
Level 14: Force Detonation
Level 17:
Level 20:
Level 23:
Level 26:
Level 29: Field Surge
Level 32:
Level 35:
Level 38: Force Cascade

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
Intelligence: Tactician (2/2)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)

A few things before we go anywhere with this... I will not accept Force Snap, Force Geyser, Containment Field, or Protection Field in her build. She is not a support character, and while Protection Field may synergize with PFF, the power doesn't exactly fit within her theme... she generates pulses of powerful energy waves, not force shields, while she can deflect attacks with rapid high speed pulses she can't maintain a physical shield while in combat, let alone shield anyone else... PFF can be interchanged with Invuln... I'd like to keep her to one of those two passives... though I'm not completely opposed to switching to an offensive passive such as either Quarry or Earth Form... I'd like to use IDF as my form if possible but can use Concentration if nessesary

flowcyto · January 2014

What role primarily do you envision w/ Pulse? Cause I can't quite get a read from the prototype build and the comments.

Force is just one of those trees that's better when other trees/builds cherry-pick from it for their own purposes instead of focusing on it, sadly. Would be nice if the knock immune multipliers at least either existed for some of the abilities or were more significant- so making a pure force tank or dps was more viable (I luv my Str-Force tank, but it takes many other tree's abilities to give it any chance at holding threat and not running its energy dry).

Unknown · January 2014

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jaazaniah1 · January 2014

Maybe life would be more interesting if you took Force Cascade earlier? That's the big heavy hitter. You could get it around lvl 20. No need to leave it to the end.

cyrone · January 2014

I know you said no to Geyser but think about it. You have intelligence primary. Geyser recharges fairly quickly. Take MSA and Geyser. There's your energy return. Concentration for more damage and energy return. Unbreakable because it is awesome with PFF. Detonation for another aoe attack with cool down that feeds your MSA. Ego surge for more ego temporarily to increase your shields and fuel your knocks briefly

raighn · January 2014

I plan on her being DPS oriented, regardless of if she uses a defensive passive or not. I have one tank already and honestly tanking isn't for me... so that one tank is enough...

I have tried Crushing Wave with Overdrive, and honestly I didn't feel it was a good combination... Crushing Force can fit into her concept, but I feel like I use maintains to much on my builds, and I kinda like the idea of her using more deliberate attacks such as blasts...

Force Cascade was only placed at the end to point out I do intend to include it in her build... not necessarily the last power taken though... however it will take a while to get my stats up enough to allow me to use Force Cascade efficiently so near the end makes sense for such a high cost power...

I really just don't like how Geyser or Snap feel on her... they just don't fit right with the concept I have for her... TBH, Detonation feels a little off too but not as much... I had a feeling MSA would become the EU for this build... though I really wish there was another option than MSA or OD... I can work with Ego Surge...

cyrone · January 2014

Telekinetic Wave could be used to trigger MSA

flowcyto · January 2014

yeah TK Wave is a good possibility- it does have a rather force-like anim and sound fx. Energy Wave and Sonic Device could also maybe work w/ the theme. You have many aoe knocks available that could fit, so ya just gotta choose between em depending on ur pref for their ranges- Eruption (close range, can be tapped to prevent knocks), Detonation (ranged), TK Wave (cone), Energy Wave (close range, can be made to pull in).

As far as EUs.. well problem is all the non-MSA/OD ones are too specific to certain trees that unless ur powerset and theme align w/ that specificity they just aren't going to work (ofc, you could go w/ flashfire w/ thermal reverb, but that'd be way out-of-theme here).

A build sample idea for you, w/ some empty or wildcard slots to tinker with (like adding an actual heal or threat wipe, choosing a diff aoe knock, etc):

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Impulse
Level 6: Coordinated
Level 9: Healthy Mind
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Impresario
Level 21: Negotiator

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts (Energy Refraction)
Level 1: Force Blast (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Level 8: Quarry (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Concentration
Level 14: Crushing Wave (Rank 2, Rank 3, Disruptive Force)
Level 17: Force Eruption (Rank 2, Gravitational Polarity)
Level 20: Force Cascade (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Field Surge
Level 26: Energy Wave (Rank 2, Reverse Polarity)
Level 29: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 32: Sonic Device
Level 35: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:

Specializations:
Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
Intelligence: Tactician (2/2)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (1/3)
Guardian: Locus (2/2)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Intelligence Mastery (1/1)

raighn · January 2014

I dunno.... also I'm rather particular about knowing details behind power, stat, and spec selection... Now I understand you gave me con for Nimble Mind... and I've stated before on another thread that I'm opposed to taking stats to boost a single power unless that power is a backbone for the build. In this case, I do not see Ego Surge w/Nimble Mind as a "backbone" I see it more as a temporary power enhancement, the same way I see all Actives...

As for Dexterity... I have enough crit based builds as is, and ever since the dodge/crit nerf my crit builds have been suffering quite a bit... I don't want to make another crit-based build. And like I said, I imagine Pulse's attacks to be more deliberate and directed... Crits are fine to have, but I don't want her relying on them, I want her attacks to have power behind them from the start, this is why I was building her through Ego

flowcyto · January 2014

raighn wrote: »

I dunno.... also I'm rather particular about knowing details behind power, stat, and spec selection... Now I understand you gave me con for Nimble Mind... and I've stated before on another thread that I'm opposed to taking stats to boost a single power unless that power is a backbone for the build. In this case, I do not see Ego Surge w/Nimble Mind as a "backbone" I see it more as a temporary power enhancement, the same way I see all Actives...

Well that's an inaccurate (though interesting) assumption.

I gave you Con as an SS cause, from personal experience w/ many ranged squishy toons, I know that w/ the one's using MSA and Conc don't need Ego at all to have competitive dps. Technically its more efficient, stat wise, to let Int drive both MSA and Concentration dmg/energy returns instead of splitting it w/ Ego/Int, and that frees up an SS slot for whatever you want. If you can get good dps but also 2k more health, why not? Nimble Mind working from Con is a bonus. If you don't like ES/NM (hey, neither do I- only 2 of my toons total have it, in fact) then drop it; its far from pivotal to the build or its theme (AO's won't give much to a pure dps who's not cycling more than one of them anyways).

As far as Dex, I'd say Dex PSS got hit the most w/ the nerf to crit rate and severity- Ego/Str flat crit bonuses actually are better cause they are rating-DR free (afaik). You can get the best of all worlds w/ high offense and high crit and high defense pen w/ Int PSS and Guardicator. Alternatively, you can still get respectable crit from gear alone, so if ya want to focus more on Offense, warden/guardian would be the best for that (in the Warden tree, rutheless, fortified gear, elusive, and TBD are prob the best choices for a ranged- great mix of offense and defense). That should get you 15-18%ish offense, which is pretty respectable; I'd still take Int PSS for the efficiency and because defense pen is the only other decent non-crit option to boost your damage.

cptmillennium · January 2014

This is my build for Lightwave, more or less. I do use Containment Field and Redirected Force, but I changed it up slightly to be closer to your goals. There's still an open power slot and some advantage points to play with. AoPM and MSA let you keep firing off Force Cascades like there's no tomorrow. Just keep using Force Detonation or Conviction to fuel MSA.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Lightwave

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Invincible
Level 6: Healthy Mind
Level 9: Ascetic
Level 12: Academics
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Command Training
Level 21: Field Ops Training

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts
Level 1: Force Eruption (Rank 2, Gravitational Polarity)
Level 6: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Level 8: Concentration
Level 11: Aura of Primal Majesty (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 17: Lock N Load (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Force Cascade (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Force Detonation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Masterful Dodge
Level 29: Unbreakable
Level 32: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
Level 35: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Lightning Flash

Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

foosnark · January 2014

gradii wrote: »

hmmm have you tried crushing wave with overdrive, force detonation and force cascade for the occasional spike?

I realized I haven't done any Force characters with Crushing Wave, so I put together something around Crushing Wave and Overdrive. I think that combo works just fine.

(I happened to go with Two-Gun Mojo, Quarry, INT/DEX/REC, Conviction. Force Shield/Sheathe is next, then active offense and defense. CON would be fine in place of REC, and BCR might be a better choice than Conviction, I just happen to like Conviction.)

biffsmackwell · January 2014

raighn wrote: »

Force Cascade was only placed at the end to point out I do intend to include it in her build... not necessarily the last power taken though... however it will take a while to get my stats up enough to allow me to use Force Cascade efficiently so near the end makes sense for such a high cost power...

You might consider, at least just for leveling, trying out an Int-End/Rec setup if you want to use Force Cascade earlier on. I'm currently leveling a Force user who relies mostly on Force Cascade, and it's pretty manageable. My Equilibrium is at around 50%, but a few pops of the Energy Builder and you can blow anything away with a full charge. I am using heirloom gear though, not sure how much of an impact that has on this.

cyrone · January 2014

Give this a go. Can swap Quarry for a Defense passive if you'd like.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Nova Remnant 2.0

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Impulse
Level 6: Indomitable
Level 9: Brilliant
Level 12: Tireless
Level 15: Academics
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Wordly

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts
Level 1: Force Blast (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Force Eruption (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Quarry (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
Level 14: Force Geyser (Rank 2)
Level 17: Force Cascade (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 23: Concentration
Level 26: Sonic Device (Rank 2, Deafening Dissolution)
Level 29: Force Detonation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Rebirth
Level 38: Telekinetic Wave (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Ego: Mental Endurance (3/3)
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Aggression (2/2)
Avenger: Can't Touch This (2/3)
Avenger: Round 'em Up (3/3)
Avenger: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Avenger: Preemptive Strike (3/3)
Overseer: Administer (3/3)
Overseer: Overseer Aura (3/3)
Overseer: Conservation (1/2)
Overseer: Enhanced Gear (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)

Unknown · January 2014

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oniganon · January 2014

If you're sick of using MSA, you could try Wind Reverb if you use Crushing Wave or Tyhpoon as your main attack.

If you instead stick with Knock powers, you could use Unstoppable for some extra energy.

flowcyto · January 2014

I'm not sure if Raighn wanted a FC tap build in particular, but it is a nice option (worth a try if one never has attempted to build around an energy-hog as their primary attack before).

To me, they were fun at first, but I found FC-tap a bit too monotonous compared to other builds, since FC becomes both primary aoe and single target then. I swapped a toon to a Str+Enrage using Force tank to make it more interesting (love it, but AMG more base dmg on blasts pls, kthx), and retooled a Typhoon user to keep the FC-tap spirit but be able to use diff cds then I normally would (that build is now kinda divided between putting out as many Dust Devils as energy/cd allows and squeezing in other moves like Typhoon, rather than just doing whatever I can to keep Typhooning- I find it a bit more interesting that way).

raighn · January 2014

TBH I had never really even entertained the idea of a FC tap build I saw FC as more of a heavy Spike damage power and a potential alpha strike if my stats permit it later on. I actually figured I'd player her primarily spamming Force Blast and cycling in Force Detonation every time it comes off CD....

So with that in mind and knowing Force Detonation has a CD, MSA is a bit more reasonable to my build that I had first believed... I've stated once or twice before on other threads that I don't like using MSA unless my natural rotation with my build includes CDs, I honestly despise the idea of forcing CDs to proc MSA... I know most don't see the common MSA proc skills to be "forced" but from my standpoint they are... relying on spamming short CD abilities like Conviction to proc MSA isn't for me... but if my build has CDs in it naturally such as Sigils or other attacks with CDs then it's not forced. I'm going to be using those skills frequently every chance I get as part of a natural rotation or main focal point of a build.

As for crusting wave and typhoon... as I mentioned before crushing wave isn't completely out of concept for her but I'd prefer to not use it on her, not really just because I use maintains to much and want her to be more tap/charge/click based but also it's really on the border of acceptable conceptually TK wave is the same... typhoon on the otherhand.... I honestly picked Force for the aesthetics... it's the only powerset that fit her theme visually... mechanically I wish I didn't have to deal with Knocks on her powers and if we were to ever be offered a new powerset with a similar aesthetic to force but without the knocks I'd switch her over in a heartbeat, even if the new powerset had effectively a fraction of the damage output... Wind powers just don't fit her theme... and while Typhoon and Cascade may be similar in mechanics and output the aesthetic variation between the two leaves me with only Cascade as a viable option for her concept.

I know some people out there might be cringing at my reasons for not accepting some power and build options... but I hold concept to be one of the most important aspects of my characters' builds.

flowcyto · January 2014

Well I can't speak for how other people prefer to play, but when I pair MSA w/ Conviction, I never use it unless I actually need the healing- in that case, MSA is a side-benefit that helps pay back the steeper cost using the heal for maintenance vs, say, BCR.
I usually try to weave in some logical dmg cds for MSA when pressing the attack. But I admit for my own version of FC tap that it had pretty much no theme and was a candidate for the 'I'm just using this ability cause its powerful and procs MSA' pitfall- usually not the case for me though (was more impetus for me to change that character).

As far as avoiding the knock component- well there usually is a work-around (not so much in the case of force detonation, though), as ya can tap the ability instead of charging, or build up knock resistance to 3 and then charge (and also get a knock-immune damage boost for the trouble).

Going back to finding other abilities that could maybe fit the theme- you said TK Wave was out. What about sonic device or energy wave?

raighn · January 2014

Flowcyto, I think I had this discussion with you once before regarding MSA... I swear I read that exact paragraph from you before... we both seem to be on pretty much the same page regarding MSA builds... MSA and CDs should work to complement the build, not be added in as a "I need an energy unlock so I'm going to spam Conviction every 2 seconds"... One of the big reasons I'm so against that tactic is because of just how widespread it is... on nearly every build i've posted asking for advice on I have had a couple replies telling me to add MSA + Conviction and to constantly use conviction to proc MSA... Even on builds where I expressed that energy wasn't a problem... hell on one build someone just told me "You're using MSA so you should add conviction" on a build that was 90% cooldowns already... Like I really needed to add conviction when nearly every thing I do on that build triggers MSA and healing was already up from 3 other sources....

Yea, I'm aware of the "work-around" for knocks... and I do use it on my builds that have knocks in them... I just wish I had more of a choice when it comes to knocks sometimes... really I wish I had more choices on a lot of things... but that's a topic for another day and another thread...

I use sonic device on my gadget/boomerangs character and it really doesn't have much of a visual at all... so I'm not to opposed to it, or any of the "On-next-hit" powers really... Don't really care to much for Energy Wave TBH... I've tried using it in a couple other builds too with unsatisfying results

flowcyto · January 2014

Yup, I did repeat myself, but it was a diff thread so I wasn't sure if it was seen by those interested in the topic, and it was relevant to my old FC toon (I do repeat myself though, yes; its just a habit).

Anyways, I'm just trying to see if there's some other type of energy emittance or source you'd think would aesthetically fit. If you can add another clause like "she can project energy waves through a weapon" or "sometimes it can manifest as unstable energy, like electricity", ya know, just something that could expand the type of abilities you could pick up? Is there anything that comes to mind when developing the character concept further?

foosnark · January 2014

I usually think the other way around: "I have Conviction and INT, so I might as well take MSA." I prefer Conviction over most other self-heals; probably 70% of my builds have it.

I know there are some better self-heals as far as raw numbers go, and ones that work better in some builds. But Conviction is easy and versatile. Conviction after a fight gets you back to 100% fast. Before a fight it gives you a little bit of an extra buffer. During a fight it's instant, easy to work into a rotation, and never goes off on the wrong target.

Funny thing though, I never spam it just to build up energy.

Why must Force be such a headache?

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