Melee tank DPS'er or melee DPS tanker?

Comments

• shaenthebrain Posts: 111 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Here's an idea:
  
  PowerHouse (Link to this build)
  
  Name:
  
  Archetype: Freeform
  
  Super Stats:
  Level 6: Strength (Primary)
  Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
  Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)
  
  Talents:
  Level 1: The Savage
  Level 6: Relentless
  Level 9: Impresario
  Level 12: Quick Recovery
  Level 15: Acrobat
  Level 18: Martial Focus
  Level 21: Physical Conditioning
  
  Powers:
  Level 1: Force Bolts
  Level 1: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
  Level 6: Force Eruption
  Level 8: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Nailed to the Ground)
  Level 11: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 14: Form of the Tempest
  Level 17: One Hundred Hands (Rank 2, Rank 3, Ghostly Strikes)
  Level 20: Dragon Uppercut (Rank 2, Chi Flame)
  Level 23: Burning Chi Fist (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 26: Spirit Reverberation
  Level 29: Resurgence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 32: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
  Level 35: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 38:
  
  Travel Powers:
  Level 6:
  Level 35:
  
  Specializations:
  Strength: Swole (3/3)
  Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
  Strength: Brutality (2/2)
  Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
  Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
  Warden: Elusive (2/2)
  Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
  Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
  Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
  Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
  Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
  Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
  
  Obviously, this is a retcon build, not a levelling build. It's less "tanky" and more "sturdy, self-sufficent DPS."
  
  All three melee attacks inflict a mix of Crushing and Dimensional damage. They all make your fists glow, and (if you're a subscriber) you can recolor the glow as you like. The advantage on the lunge will lay down an AoE Fear. The energy unlock gives you energy returns when you inflict Dimensional Damage on Feared targets, scaling with your super-CON.
  
  The form toggle will give you a Focus stack every time you inflict a critical hit, which, with DEX super-statted, you should do often. When you gain a Focus stack, you gain bonus damage and energy return, scaling with your super-DEX.
  
  Super-CON, Invulnerability, and the STR specialization tree should make you sturdy enough. Keep your health topped off with Conviction, and hit Resurgence when you lose a lot of it all at once.
  
  Force Bolts is just there for the utility of a ranged energy-builder, and for thematic reasons. Force Eruption and Force Shield are there because Force Bolts locks you into Force for your first two real powers. But Force Eruption provides some good utility. Knockback is annoying most of the time, but there are missions where you have to just hold the line and keep an NPC or object alive for a certain amount of time, and mass knockback is a godsend for those. Force Shield with Force Sheathe is one of the more popular block upgrade choices.
  
  There's 2 advantage points left over to rank up the travel power of your choice.

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  highjusticar wrote: »

  I know might has a good single target attack that doesn't knock back, but I think it looks stupid. Never in my life have I ever seen anyone who has any clue how to fight ever hold one hand in the other and swing both as one to hit someone with the back of the top hand. You would be far more effective just removing the top hand and moving that arm to get more torque for an uppercut, but I digress.

  
  You mean Demolish? Yeah it does look a bit silly, but I guess they were running out of anim ideas for might.
  
  (you can tap haymaker to avoid the KB, just fyi. Is ur toggle Enrage? .. you'll probably want to use that as the primary attack, if so. Its by far the highest dps move in Might for bosses or knock immune targets)
  

  My question is, given the current state of the game and spec trees, leveling normally from 1-40, which would be easier to do given current quest rewards and drops, making a tank with great dps or making a dps with great tanking ability?
  
  One thought is invul or defiance, going in hybrid mode most of the time and jumping into tank role when needed. The other thought is a great offensive passive in melee role and maybe dropping into hybrid to tank.
  
  Which way would be best to tank and spank solo, yet be good enough to do it in a group when needed?

  
  Shouldn't need to ever swap to the tank role when solo (or really anytime, imo). W/o Bulwark in the Protector tree, Tank role is mainly just for higher threat gen (although said talent negates that advantage over the Hybrid role) since the higher health and DR aren't that much and can be countered by the hybrid role's higher healing bonuses (tank role needs a buff or significant change, but that's a diff topic entirely).
  
  Whether to go dps w/ tanky options or tank w/ dps options depends on how hard the content ur going against is hitting.. basically.
  
  For melee dps, the best all-around defense for a slotted offense, imo, is WotW when paired w/ things that work off of dodge (BCR/RR, Parry w/ elusive monk, EM and/or TK for the dodge buff, etc). A good bit of pve content deals mostly or exclusively physical dmg, so Earth Form, KM (for ranged), and Stormbringer can also be very strong for defense in some cases (notably, Gravitar).
  
  But generally, if the mobs ur going up against hit hard (and/or ur still a lowbie tackling group content), a real tanking passive will suit you better. That mostly narrows it to Invuln, Regen, or Defiance. Defiance won't shrug off henchman dmg as much as the other two, but unlike Regen and Invlun it grants energy and doesn't need to be ranked up. Once you have one of those three, ya can just tack on something like Conviction and 1-2 ADs and you'll be fine to face most threats out there. Rest of the build could be concerned w/ dps and energy management.
  (LR can be great too, but you have to build around it.. and that may be too restrictive depending on 'theme')

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• highjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  I have been reading up a little on Aura of Radiant Protection and it seems that it can give high levels of damage resist and extend it to any group members. Combined with IDF or Sentry Aura or even Sentinel Aura and Compassion could make for a very durable tank type, but might leave a lot to be desired for damage.
  
  I am still reading up on it.
  
  One question I do have about Force Cascade. If I have a bubble from Energy Refraction from the force builder and a toggle Form that counts as an energy form, which one will it eat first?

  0
• gammabreaker Posts: 248 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  I currently run Radiant Protection on my Crusader/Paladin/etc. character. Works wonders. You should be able to get it up somewhere between 80% and 100% resistance. Couple this with a Wardicator for an additional 40% to 60% resistance, and you have a very durable character. It is an excellent passive for a Hybrid-stance tank.
  
  I wouldn't bother with IDF, though. The energy management that comes from toggles is very important.

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  highjusticar wrote: »

  I have been reading up a little on Aura of Radiant Protection and it seems that it can give high levels of damage resist and extend it to any group members. Combined with IDF or Sentry Aura or even Sentinel Aura and Compassion could make for a very durable tank type, but might leave a lot to be desired for damage.
  
  I am still reading up on it.
  
  One question I do have about Force Cascade. If I have a bubble from Energy Refraction from the force builder and a toggle Form that counts as an energy form, which one will it eat first?

  yeah AoRP is another good one, esp to extended some DR to teammates.
  
  As to ur question- afaik FC would disable all energy forms for the duration, regardless of overlap (you get a debuff w/ a fixed duration).
  
  
  Oh, there's another option to consider: get one offense and one defensive slotted passive using the same build, and swap between the offense/melee role and the defense/hybrid role depending on how tough the mobs are. You'll need to free up an extra power slot for that strat, but that's not too big a deal for FFs.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• highjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  How does this look?
  
  PowerHouse (Link to this build)
  
  Name:
  
  Archetype: Freeform
  
  Super Stats:
  Level 6: Strength (Primary)
  Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
  Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)
  
  Talents:
  Level 1: The Hero
  Level 6: Tireless
  Level 9: Amazing Stamina
  Level 12: Impresario
  Level 15: Negotiator
  Level 18: Quick Recovery
  Level 21: Relentless
  
  Powers:
  Level 1: Force Bolts (Energy Refraction)
  Level 1: Force Shield (Force Sheathe)
  Level 6: Force Eruption (Gravitational Polarity, Challenging Strikes)
  Level 8: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares)
  Level 11: Aura of Radiant Protection (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 14: One Hundred Hands (Rank 2, Ghostly Strikes, Challenging Strikes)
  Level 17: Form of the Tempest
  Level 20: Burning Chi Fist (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 23: Spirit Reverberation
  Level 26: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 29: Force Cascade (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 32: Resurgence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Lock N Load (Two Smoking Barrels)
  Level 38: Masterful Dodge
  
  Travel Powers:
  Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Athletics
  
  Specializations:
  Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
  Strength: Aggression (2/2)
  Strength: Brutality (2/2)
  Strength: Overpower (3/3)
  Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
  Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
  Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
  Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
  Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
  Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
  Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
  Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
  
  
  I am not sure about Int as a SS.
  
  Once I get FC and I am fighting a boss, I could wait for my builder to give me a bubble, hit Lock and Load and the unload with FC and then back to punching it until LaL resets. It sounds good on paper at least! I didn't see anything on FotT that said it was an energy form.

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  If ur using Form of the Tempest then you want Dex as one of ur SS's. Str/Dex/Con would prob be the most versatile combo for a dps/tank hybrid melee. You may also want to replace burning chi fist w/ rising uppercut since the latter gives you Rush, but I am unsure what you are trying to do on single-targets (uppercut for rush then channel hundred hands? hundred hands should be r3 if ur using it often).
  
  Another option is to make Haymaker ur primary attack and take Enrage- then you don't need to SS Dex but can focus on Str and Con.
  
  I am unsure what to think about the Force Cascade combo. If you go the Haymaker route then its superfluous cause Haymaker is just downright better for melee than FC. I find fishing for the Energy Refraction to be inefficient due to the lower proc rate and the end builder being such low dps (FC ends up making up for lost time, effectively). But if you just use it when you are getting energy back and it happens to proc, that's fine. I'd prob drop LnL for Ego Surge w/ NM for more generalized use, since the combo you mentioned is just too specialized and its better to just hit the AO on cd instead of waiting for a proc.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• highjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Single target damage would come from burning chi fist with force cascade when I can.
  
  If I replace INT with DEX as a SS, what should I go for with my talents? Right now they are all REC based.

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Since I don't usually SS Rec, my default modus operandi w/ talents is to get the three +5/+5 ones that correspond to the diff combos of my three SS's, and the other three talents are +5 SS/+5 Rec. For Str/Dex/Con setups, the Master is the best innate talent for SS's.
  
  Sometimes depending on the powerset (like if I have a costly opener like charged energy wave or am using strafe run, for ex) I'll also devote one mod slot or one secondary gear to Rec to have a decent equilibrium. Its not always needed, though.

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• highjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  I asked because one of the build guides suggested using a energy management stat as one of your SS choices. I have been going with whichever affected my energy unlock or INT if none.
  
  The reason I took Tempest is that of all the forms, I figured I would crit more than dodge though I could be wrong on that.

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Well, an energy stat isn't always needed as a SS- really just depends on the build. If I'm using one, its probably Int cause I'm paring it w/ MSA and/or Concentration- then its not just an energy stat at all, but cd reduction, and more energy & damage from Concentration. Of course, for energy-eating builds like power armor, typhoon/gigabolt/FC tap builds, and shielding support, energy stats are much more valuable- but that's a minority of builds available.
  
  In your case, Form of Tempest procs off of crits, and its energy and damage increases scale w/ Dex- so you def want Dex as an SS if you use it. If you add a Rush-granting ability, then w/ high focus stacks you'll get good energy over time and some melee cost reduction. You won't necessarily need an energy unlock then- though you can still add one if you have room for it (melee lunges can proc MSA, Hundred Hands and other maintains can proc Overdrive, for ex).

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• highjusticar Posts: 140 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  OK one last question before I get this build into shape.
  
  Do I stick with strength as my primary or:
  
  CON

  Specializations:
  Constitution: Fuel My Fire (3/3)
  Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
  Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
  Constitution: Armored or Adrenaline Rush(2/2)

  
  or DEX

  Specializations:
  Dexterity: Combat Training (3/3)
  Dexterity: Gear Utilization (2/3)
  Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
  Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)

  0
• flowcyto Posts: 12,859 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Its pretty straightforward: Con is for survivability from better mitigation and adren rush heals, and better resistance to knocks. Dex is pretty much the pure dmg tree (well, there are dodge/avoid options, but the Dex-scaling ones aren't that great and preclude getting the precious crit severity and expose weakness options). Str tree is a mix of the two.
  
  I'd go w/ Str, just cause its the most well-rounded for a melee toon that also has Con SS'd, but the other 2 options aren't w/o merit either (like picking Con for a pure tank, or Dex for max dps).

  <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
  - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!

  0
• helbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  Here's how I would do the extremes of this concept. The first is all-out DPS keeping within the concept of an invulnerable energy melee character (using re-colored Darkness powers to represent energy). The second is an all-out tank using Defiance instead of Invulnerability, but otherwise same concept.
  
  PowerHouse (Link to this build)
  
  Name: Energy/Invuln [DPS]
  
  Archetype: Freeform
  
  Super Stats:
  Level 6: Strength (Primary)
  Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
  Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)
  
  Talents:
  Level 1: The Master
  Level 6: Physical Conditioning
  Level 9: Martial Focus
  Level 12: Acrobat
  Level 15: Paramilitary Training
  Level 18: Relentless
  Level 21: Impresario
  
  Powers:
  Level 1: Clobber
  Level 1: Shadow Blast (Psychotic Break)
  Level 6: Roomsweeper (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 8: Invulnerability (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 11: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares)
  Level 14: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
  Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 20: Burning Chi Fist (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 23: Spirit Reverberation
  Level 26: Aggressor (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 29: Unbreakable (Better You Than Me)
  Level 32: Unleashed Rage (Rank2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
  Level 38: Masterful Dodge
  
  Travel Powers:
  Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Athletics
  
  Specializations:
  Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
  Strength: Aggression (2/2)
  Strength: Brutality (2/2)
  Strength: Overpower (3/3)
  Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
  Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
  Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
  Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
  Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
  Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
  Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
  Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
  
  The above build sacrifices a bit of defense for additional DPS. Gear for distributions of STR > DEX > CON in order to benefit most from Enraged, crit chance, Brutality, and energy return.
  
  
  PowerHouse (Link to this build)
  
  Name: Energy/Defiance [Tank]
  
  Archetype: Freeform
  
  Super Stats:
  Level 6: Strength (Primary)
  Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
  Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
  
  Talents:
  Level 1: The Devastator
  Level 6: Physical Conditioning
  Level 9: Relentless
  Level 12: Quick Recovery
  Level 15: Paramilitary Training
  Level 18: Bodybuilder
  Level 21: Boundless Reserves
  
  Powers:
  Level 1: Clobber
  Level 1: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
  Level 6: Defiance
  Level 8: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares)
  Level 11: Shadow Blast (Psychotic Break)
  Level 14: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Collateral Damage, Challenging Strikes)
  Level 17: Ebon Void (Rank 2, Rank 3, Voracious Darkness)
  Level 20: Burning Chi Fist (Rank 2, Fists of Righteous Flame)
  Level 23: Inertial Dampening Field
  Level 26: Spirit Reverberation
  Level 29: Lifedrain (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 32: Masterful Dodge
  Level 35: Resurgence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 38: Shadow Shroud (Terrifying Visage)
  
  Travel Powers:
  Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Athletics (Rank 2)
  
  Specializations:
  Strength: Swole (3/3)
  Strength: Aggression (2/2)
  Strength: Brutality (2/2)
  Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
  Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
  Protector: Exhausting Strikes (2/2)
  Protector: Defensive Expertise (3/3)
  Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Warden: Slaughter (2/3)
  Warden: Elusive (2/2)
  Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
  Mastery: Protector Mastery (1/1)
  
  Gear priorities here should be CON >> STR > REC.

  0
• helbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User

  January 2014 edited January 2014

  And finally, here's how I would do a hybrid of those, representing good DPS with equally good survivability/off-tanking ability:
  
  PowerHouse (Link to this build)
  
  Name: Energy/Defiance [Hybrid]
  
  Archetype: Freeform
  
  Super Stats:
  Level 6: Strength (Primary)
  Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
  Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)
  
  Talents:
  Level 1: The Master
  Level 6: Physical Conditioning
  Level 9: Acrobat
  Level 12: Martial Focus
  Level 15: Paramilitary Training
  Level 18: Relentless
  Level 21: Impresario
  
  Powers:
  Level 1: Clobber
  Level 1: Roomsweeper (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 6: Defiance
  Level 8: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
  Level 11: Void Shift (Emerging Nightmares, Nailed to the Ground)
  Level 14: Shadow Blast (Rank 2, Psychotic Break)
  Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 20: Burning Chi Fist (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 23: Spirit Reverberation
  Level 26: Aggressor (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 29: Retaliation (Rank 2)
  Level 32: Unbreakable (Better You Than Me)
  Level 35: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
  Level 38: Masterful Dodge
  
  Travel Powers:
  Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
  Level 35: Athletics
  
  Specializations:
  Strength: Swole (3/3)
  Strength: Aggression (2/2)
  Strength: Brutality (2/2)
  Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
  Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
  Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
  Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
  Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
  Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
  Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
  Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
  Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
  Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
  
  
  Gear priorities here should be STR > CON >/= DEX.

  0