Until this game becomes harder to play (difficulty raised or tougher content)
Justice gear needs to stay where it is. In cyber space, by itself. And not be let out until the above happens... if ever.
Agreed. What would be the point of introducing any new gear if they don't intend to release any new content?
And I don't believe that we will see any new SIGNIFICANT content any time soon. I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm predicting now we see nothing but new alerts. I don't consider something that can be finished in 30 minutes or less to be significant.
I'm also predicting we'll see plenty of additional nerfs but no SIGNIFICANT content anytime soon. One has NOTHING to do with the other.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Actually i'm more of the mind of raising the higher difficulties and adding debuff mobs to those that are actually tough enough that just trying to focus them down will still get ya killed if you don't use your head beyond just "target demonic spider". Note I said that of the higher difficulties. Elite really isn't that much harder than normal, the fights only really last longer and the mobs don't do that much more damage.
Want real difficulty? Don't increase durability so much, make damage less forgiving(as in the enemies do way more). You'll see the jump in difficulty without adding artificial difficulty very fast.
NO to that, COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NO. Buffing up damage only does 1 thing and that is make toons that don't take a Defensive Passive strugle. We allready have an extreme bias towards Defensive Passives in that they provide more bang for your buck than Offensive Passives.
I this happens nobody will run a Passive Offense because you would just be dead, all the time.
We allready have an extreme bias towards Defensive Passives in that they provide more bang for your buck than Offensive Passives.
I laughed, really. You must not play with Personal Force Field.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I laughed, really. You must not play with Personal Force Field.
Because somehow you think I was talking about PFF or because somehow you think I have to list every damned Defensive Passive. PFF is an exception, not the rule here.
Because somehow you think I was talking about PFF or because somehow you think I have to list every damned Defensive Passive. PFF is an exception, not the rule here.
Because you generalized Defense Passives. Personal Force Field is a Defense Passive.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I would not mind an increase in mob damage so long as it's NOT an appreciable increase in spike damage. Gravi is already pushing the limit, and possibly too far for spike. I don't mean the yellow bubbles as those are generally avoidable. I mean the randomly targeted double tapped FC which kills squishies regularly. More or less unavoidable random spike damage for upwards of 10k between the two, which due to knockdown may also prevent blocking the second FC even if you have good reflexes, is not okay in my book. Instagibs are only okay if they're predictable and avoidable, like Gravi's yellow bubble.
On the subject of PFF, at least it provides some defensive benefit. Yes, it's the redheaded step child of the defensive passives but it still gives more survivability than AoED, AoAC or the energy form offensive passives outside of their defensive niche. And I am aware AoED and AoAC are support passives, which really just makes those characters even more reliant on active abilities to stay alive through spike due to them likely being in support role which cuts max hp.
Because you generalized Defense Passives. Personal Force Field is a Defense Passive.
Give me a break, what am I supposed to do write paragraphs explaining every single thing just because the likes of you lack common sense to understand what I'm saying. PFF is the exception, but the rule still stands. Defense is more valuable than Offense in this game and this bias has always existed.
Give me a break, what am I supposed to do write paragraphs explaining every single thing just because the likes of you lack common sense to understand what I'm saying. PFF is the exception, but the rule still stands. Defense is more valuable than Offense in this game and this bias has always existed.
It certainly would be more helpful to get your point across if you detailed what you were trying to say instead of generalizing everything. :biggrin:
Edit:
But to clarify. If Defense passives are oh so much better than Offense Passives...why then do I see more Offense Passive players than Defense Passive?
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
It certainly would be more helpful to get your point across if you detailed what you were trying to say instead of generalizing everything. :biggrin:
That is a generalization, what I did was to mention that there is a skew/bias towards Defense which holds even for PFF. While it might not be on par with the other Defensive Passives it still provides defense.
Seriously, you are just being pedantic about something which is completely besides the point. I was not arguing about PFF, I was talking about Defensive Passives in GENERAL. The point was not to talk about each defensive passive but about the DEFENSE they provide in comparison to the OFFENSE boost an Offensive Passive gives.
You are just trolling at this point. You know what I meant and for some reason you got all QQ about me including PFF in the Defensive Passive comment. PFF is a Defensive Passive and it does provide defense if we really get down to it.
That is a generalization, what I did was to mention that there is a skew/bias towards Defense which holds even for PFF. While it might not be on par with the other Defensive Passives it still provides defense.
Seriously, you are just being pedantic about something which is completely besides the point. I was not arguing about PFF, I was talking about Defensive Passives in GENERAL. The point was not to talk about each defensive passive but about the DEFENSE they provide in comparison to the OFFENSE boost an Offensive Passive gives.
You are just trolling at this point. You know what I meant and for some reason you got all QQ about me including PFF in the Defensive Passive comment. PFF is a Defensive Passive and it does provide defense if we really get down to it.
I QQ'd (as you so aptly put it) over nothing. I merely made a comment about your mindset of the game being biased towards Defense Passives. Yes, PFF is a Defense Passive. And *NO* you do *not* get more bang for your buck with it. Every Offense Passive outshines PFF by a long shot. I don't see the game as being biased towards any play style, except crowd control. I can do all the same content with an Offense Passive that I can with a Defense Passive, sometimes better. Take your bias elsewhere.
NO to that, COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NO. Buffing up damage only does 1 thing and that is make toons that don't take a Defensive Passive strugle. We allready have an extreme bias towards Defensive Passives in that they provide more bang for your buck than Offensive Passives.
I this happens nobody will run a Passive Offense because you would just be dead, all the time.
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I QQ'd (as you so aptly put it) over nothing. I merely made a comment about your mindset of the game being biased towards Defense Passives. Yes, PFF is a Defense Passive. And *NO* you do *not* get more bang for your buck with it. Every Offense Passive outshines PFF by a long shot. I don't see the game as being biased towards any play style, except crowd control. I can do all the same content with an Offense Passive that I can with a Defense Passive, sometimes better. Take your bias elsewhere.
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
Yeah I can do this to you know. How about you stop getting all flustered and get it through your skull that I was not talking about PFF. I did not mention it because I did not feel like mentioning something that was obvious. It's not obvious to YOU? Well too bad:rolleyes:
How about you make a useful comment, the last ones are just trolling. Nothing you said was anything but you being pedantic.
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
Yeah I can do this to you know. How about you stop getting all flustered and get it through your skull that I was not talking about PFF. I did not mention it because I did not feel like mentioning something that was obvious. It's not obvious to YOU? Well too bad:rolleyes:
How about you make a useful comment, the last ones are just trolling. Nothing you said was anything but you being pedantic.
Ooooh!
It's "Being Pedantic" vs. "Pages of Rage" in an epic showdown to see which one is actually less profitable!
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
Yeah I can do this to you know. How about you stop getting all flustered and get it through your skull that I was not talking about PFF. I did not mention it because I did not feel like mentioning something that was obvious. It's not obvious to YOU? Well too bad:rolleyes:
How about you make a useful comment, the last ones are just trolling. Nothing you said was anything but you being pedantic.
There was a useful comment in my last post, you just happened to overlook it because you saw me mention a particular power again and decided to flip. I'll quote it here so you can see it completely.
I don't see the game as being biased towards any play style, except crowd control. I can do all the same content with an Offense Passive that I can with a Defense Passive, sometimes better. Take your bias elsewhere.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
this isn't because defensive passives are OP, its because offensive passives are just too weak in general.
The problem is that if you buff offense too much you have people crying because of duels.
In PvE you would need a lot more %dmg to be able to mitigate as much dmg (by sheer kill power) as a Defensive Passive user can. The issues become more evident when facing extreme dmg content like Gravitar.
Think about it:
20% base dmg boost on a power that does 1000 dmg -> 1200
20% mitigation (actual mitigation not Cryptic) out of 1000 -> 800 ( 200 difference) but out of something like 10 000 -> 8000 (2000 difference)
Basically the issue is that mitigation scales alongside dmg taken (the more incoming dmg the more you mitigate) while the damage output of the toon is the same whether you fight a Hencmen or a Legendary/Cosmic. (actually it would be less for Legendarily/Cosmics due to their innate higher %mitigation)
Most of the people that PvP nowadays build on the tanky side anyway. Offense can use some help in its current state.
I think thats why he thinks that there is a bias towards defensive passives, because he either watches to much pvp, or pvps himself, or both. But in the world of pve I tend to see a little more offensive based passives than defensive based passives, but thats how I typically end up in things. It might differ per person though due to luck and/or the randomness that comes with groups in alerts.
I think thats why he thinks that there is a bias towards defensive passives, because he either watches to much pvp, or pvps himself, or both. But in the world of pve I tend to see a little more offensive based passives than defensive based passives, but thats how I typically end up in things. It might differ per person though due to luck and/or the randomness that comes with groups in alerts.
Oh did your crystal ball tell you all that? And no I don't PvP except for the occasional duel.
The bias towards Defensive Passives is obvious but you must not be good with numbers that's why you don't see it.
Let me break it down for you:
- defense scales with incoming damage
- offense does not scale based on the type of enemies you fight
Oh did your crystal ball tell you all that? And no I don't PvP except for the occasional duel.
The bias towards Defensive Passives is obvious but you must not be good with numbers that's why you don't see it.
Let me break it down for you:
- defense scales with incoming damage
- offense does not scale based on the type of enemies you fight
Not sure why you are telling me this. I wasn't arguing with you to begin with. Or do you want to get into another argument, for thats what your past few posts have been looking like, you trying to provoke people into arguing with you.
Oh did your crystal ball tell you all that? And no I don't PvP except for the occasional duel.
The bias towards Defensive Passives is obvious but you must not be good with numbers that's why you don't see it.
Let me break it down for you:
- defense scales with incoming damage
- offense does not scale based on the type of enemies you fight
I honestly don't understand what your gripe is. Defense scales with incoming damage? Oh please teach us your mystical ways. As far as I knew, Defense was given by gear and/or passives to mitigate incoming damage. Of course you're going to see lower incoming damage numbers with a defense passive. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. And you're going to see higher damage output numbers with, *gasp*, an Offense passive. Why? THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. You're badgering a moot point and quite frankly, starting to not make any sense what-so-ever.
Where you're coming up with "defense scales to incoming damage" is beyond me. As for "offense does not scale based on type of enemies"...no. If you want more offense, gear/spec/stat/power pick for it. Same for defense.
"I swear some people can't pour water from a bucket even if it has instructions printed on the bottom." -EVE Online pilot
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Not sure why you are telling me this. I wasn't arguing with you to begin with. Or do you want to get into another argument, for thats what your past few posts have been looking like, you trying to provoke people into arguing with you.
You were the one who accused me of being a PvPer and dismissed my statement on such basis so yeah:rolleyes:
I honestly don't understand what your gripe is. Defense scales with incoming damage? Oh please teach us your mystical ways. As far as I knew, Defense was given by gear and/or passives to mitigate incoming damage. Of course you're going to see lower incoming damage numbers with a defense passive. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. And you're going to see higher damage output numbers with, *gasp*, an Offense passive. Why? THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. You're badgering a moot point and quite frankly, starting to not make any sense what-so-ever.
Where you're coming up with "defense scales to incoming damage" is beyond me. As for "offense does not scale based on type of enemies"...no. If you want more offense, gear/spec/stat/power pick for it. Same for defense.
"I swear some people can't pour water from a bucket even if it has instructions printed on the bottom." -EVE Online pilot
The fact that you don't get what I'm saying does not invalidate anything I say.
Spare me your condescending nonsense will you, I'm not saying that Defense gives protection and Offense gives damage OK.
I'll try to point it out again, if you don't get it then I would suggest to stop replying because it's YOU who does not get what I'm trying to say and there's not point in having a discussion.
What I was talking about was regarding the statement to buff Offensive Passives in conjunction with the statement saying that NPC dmg should be buffed. I was saying that it won't be possible because people will complain. I also said that in order to mitigate as much damage and a Defensive Passive user, and Offensive Passive user would need to do a LOT more dmg.
The problem here is that defense is always a %mitigation so you will always take a certain % amount of dmg less from an incoming attack (I'm not talking about PFF which works differently). Now, since no matter the attack you only take % dmg of it, it automatically "scales" with the NPC you fight. As such, the more dmg and NPC does to you the more dmg your defense will protect you for. By this I don't mean % wise but number wise. IE: with 20% mitigation a 1000 dmg atk deals 800 but a 10 000 atk deals 8000. The point of this is to noticed that in the first case you get hit with 200 dmg less while in the second with 2000. This is pretty obvious and nothing new, the point is to notice that dmg does not work the same way!
With % dmg buffs no matter what NPC you fight you will still do the same amount of dmg to them. As such, at some point the NPC you fight will be so strong (HP/dmg wise) that you won't be able to "kill them before they kill you" because your dmg is not a % of their health (like defense gives you a % of an enemy's attack) to be able to kill them faster.
The point I'm trying to make is both obvious (to me) and subtle. Offensive Passives need a boost to compensate for the amount of Defense that is lost. The issue here is that you can't boost their dmg too much because then in PvP/Duels people will start complaining.
If Offense would work like Defense then you would do a % ammount of damage out of an NPC HP with powers. This % would change based on the NPC rank and lvl so to a low lvl Henchmen for example you would deal 100% dmg with an attack (so one shot it) but to a lvl 40 MV you would to 20-30%dmg (just throwing numbers here) per tick/charge whatever.
This would mean that when you get %dmg buff, you buff yourself proportionally to the enemies you fight and not buff a base number like it currently is.
This of course is not possible since it would require absurd amount of work but the point still remains. Defense will always be better than Offense and if you are in an environment with HIGH dmg being dealt to you then the Offensive Passive toon will simply not be able to do that much dmg to be able to kill thing around him to follow the "kill be fore being killed" principle.
That is why I was against simply increase NPC dmg to increase "difficulty". This won't work and it will simply make Defensive Passives more and more desirable.
If you still do not get what I'm trying to say then just move on because we don't have anything to discuss then. You would be arguing with me, based on something I said that you don't actually understand, which would be absurd.
Hey, I was half right, you even said you pvp sometimes. :P
No I said I duel, it's different than joining BASH or any other PvP thing out there. Duno if 1 duel every couple of month counts. It's like saying you drink because you have a beer once every half a year. Anyways, not like it matters anymore.
The fact that you don't get what I'm saying does not invalidate anything I say.
Spare me your condescending nonsense will you, I'm not saying that Defense gives protection and Offense gives damage OK.
I'll try to point it out again, if you don't get it then I would suggest to stop replying because it's YOU who does not get what I'm trying to say and there's not point in having a discussion.
What I was talking about was regarding the statement to buff Offensive Passives in conjunction with the statement saying that NPC dmg should be buffed. I was saying that it won't be possible because people will complain. I also said that in order to mitigate as much damage and a Defensive Passive user, and Offensive Passive user would need to do a LOT more dmg.
The problem here is that defense is always a %mitigation so you will always take a certain % amount of dmg less from an incoming attack (I'm not talking about PFF which works differently). Now, since no matter the attack you only take % dmg of it, it automatically "scales" with the NPC you fight. As such, the more dmg and NPC does to you the more dmg your defense will protect you for. By this I don't mean % wise but number wise. IE: with 20% mitigation a 1000 dmg atk deals 800 but a 10 000 atk deals 8000. The point of this is to noticed that in the first case you get hit with 200 dmg less while in the second with 2000. This is pretty obvious and nothing new, the point is to notice that dmg does not work the same way!
With % dmg buffs no matter what NPC you fight you will still do the same amount of dmg to them. As such, at some point the NPC you fight will be so strong (HP/dmg wise) that you won't be able to "kill them before they kill you" because your dmg is not a % of their health (like defense gives you a % of an enemy's attack) to be able to kill them faster.
The point I'm trying to make is both obvious (to me) and subtle. Offensive Passives need a boost to compensate for the amount of Defense that is lost. The issue here is that you can't boost their dmg too much because then in PvP/Duels people will start complaining.
If Offense would work like Defense then you would do a % ammount of damage out of an NPC HP with powers. This % would change based on the NPC rank and lvl so to a low lvl Henchmen for example you would deal 100% dmg with an attack (so one shot it) but to a lvl 40 MV you would to 20-30%dmg (just throwing numbers here) per tick/charge whatever.
This would mean that when you get %dmg buff, you buff yourself proportionally to the enemies you fight and not buff a base number like it currently is.
This of course is not possible since it would require absurd amount of work but the point still remains. Defense will always be better than Offense and if you are in an environment with HIGH dmg being dealt to you then the Offensive Passive toon will simply not be able to do that much dmg to be able to kill thing around him to follow the "kill be fore being killed" principle.
That is why I was against simply increase NPC dmg to increase "difficulty". This won't work and it will simply make Defensive Passives more and more desirable.
If you still do not get what I'm trying to say then just move on because we don't have anything to discuss then. You would be arguing with me, based on something I said that you don't actually understand, which would be absurd.
\o/ Clarification! Up until now, I don't think anyone coud have gathered that you were trying to say this. :biggrin:
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
No I said I duel, it's different than joining BASH or any other PvP thing out there. Duno if 1 duel every couple of month counts. It's like saying you drink because you have a beer once every half a year. Anyways, not like it matters anymore.
Whoa whoa whoa there! Dueling is PVP? NO WAY! Cause PVP stands to Player verse Player and dueling does not go through BASH! It only happens when a player challenges me or I challenge another play...er...
How about compelling content? New costumes and powersets are nice but without new things to do it all feels hollow to me. I'm talking new zone with a real storyline (or several), not just a new alert.
How about compelling content? New costumes and powersets are nice but without new things to do it all feels hollow to me. I'm talking new zone with a real storyline (or several), not just a new alert.
And no, I do not want a pony while I'm dreaming.
True, we do need more content, especially late game content.
The impression that I get from Cryptic is that new zones are simply not doable within their current budgeting. I gave up with that expectation some time ago.
What I would be happy with is new APs or Comic series. Also, Elite difficulty desperately needs addressing. Those of us who opt for practical, effective builds already outperform Elite difficulty. It needs to be bumped up a whole lot to keep that portion of players at the edge of their seats and really fight to win.
\o/ Clarification! Up until now, I don't think anyone coud have gathered that you were trying to say this. :biggrin:
Well thing is, to me that is quite obvious so it's not really easy to know what to point out. That's why I just explained everything. But in all honesty, it's not something new or groundbreaking it's simply an obvious but somehow omitted issue when it comes to Offensive vs Defensive Passives.
I could further add the fact that an Offensive Passive + Form gets you into sever DR, in fact taking a Form brings you to the limit of DR so the Offensive Passive bonus is entirely affected by DR.
This is why I am against just blindly buffing dmg of NPC, it will obliterate Offensive Passives since they can't "scale" the way Defensive Passives do (except PFF ).
This is why the dodge nerf was uncalled for. If Cryptic adds now more content that is "challenging" (more HP & dmg) then Offensive Passives will be simply left behind. There is no way an Offensive toon can compensate for where "challenge" is heading in this game namely, more HP and higher DMG of NPCs.
In fact PvP is a good example of this future scenario. The extreme amount of dmg that is going around in BASH for example would kill anyone there with an Offensive Passive. If we consider BASH as an example of how future content will look like (and let's be honest that's what will happen, Cryptic will boost DMG and HP or add a gimmick one shot kill mechanics) then we can see why PvPers switch to Defensive Passives. While you might do less dmg the sheer survivability gained is more than worth it since again, you can't DPS while you are dead lol.
I've been trying to explain this for months to people and they don't get it even though it's so obvious. It's like Defensive Passives is an exponential function while Offensive Passives are like a ln (logarithm). Defensive Passive's benefit adjusts itself to higher dmg of NPC while for Offensive Passives there is a limit and once that is hit you are dead and you will be dead for any content which exceeds this limit.
The dodge nerf had to happen because people were taking offensive passives and using a piece of end-game gear as an effective substitute for a R3 defensive passive. It was an issue that eventually had to be addressed sooner or later.
The core design behind offensive passives seems to be "higher damage, weaker survivability". That means that the offensive build player has to limit flexibility and go for powers to cover for lower survivability compared to defensive build player who doesn't. I get nightrod's concern when it comes to buffing enemy damage in this case. Increasing difficulty across the board can be unfair for players who don't go the "effectively practical" route of building, which is why there has to be a segregation between content that anyone regardless of build can excel in and content that tests the limits of those players built for efficiency, to cater for both types of players.
no. all content MUST be doable for ALL types of players. Difficulty options are how we address
different levels of effectiveness.
You realise the content in question is 5 man content right? I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be able to solo this with any power choice and green gear.
Also who was it who took being called a PvP'er as an insult? I'm sort of insulted by that I must say... <.< FYI PvP wise I haven't used a defensive passive for ages not that I'm saying that atleast half or more of people who PvP use a defensive passive or AOPM.
Too be honest pretty much anything is viable, in PvE you wont really be killed that easy no matter what you use as long as you use whatever it is correctly. In PvP you will pretty much always have to have 1 or 2 atleast powers selected from the 'cheese cookie cut' 5% of powers in CO.
How about compelling content? New costumes and powersets are nice but without new things to do it all feels hollow to me. I'm talking new zone with a real storyline (or several), not just a new alert.
<looks at other two games, then looks at CO>
I'm for a Campaign Zone with an Alternate Advancement System(Boons if you will), no LvL Cap increases(too much problems and AA Systems are, IMO, vastly superior and less damaging to the game itself), and......Champions Online Episode 1: <Space Reserved for Snazzy Title>. Course, that's just me.
no. all content MUST be doable for ALL types of players. Difficulty options are how we address
different levels of effectiveness.
Cute sentiment but, in case you haven't noticed, a large portion of the playerbase(FF and AT alike) suck rocks through a paper straw. They would find a way to die in a game of Pong. Content cannot be doable for all types of players....but functioning difficulty sliders with Elite simply upping drop changes for rares on the same tables that "normal"(or people who suck rocks through a paper straw) can obtain is somewhat more realistic IMO.
Hinky: PvP is only, IMO, an euphamism for Masochistic at this point really. It's the system of playing with the corpse of an intentionally murdered victim. In a nutshell, PvP = Weekend at Bernies. :biggrin:
The dodge nerf had to happen because people were taking offensive passives and using a piece of end-game gear as an effective substitute for a R3 defensive passive. It was an issue that eventually had to be addressed sooner or later.
The core design behind offensive passives seems to be "higher damage, weaker survivability". That means that the offensive build player has to limit flexibility and go for powers to cover for lower survivability compared to defensive build player who doesn't. I get nightrod's concern when it comes to buffing enemy damage in this case. Increasing difficulty across the board can be unfair for players who don't go the "effectively practical" route of building, which is why there has to be a segregation between content that anyone regardless of build can excel in and content that tests the limits of those players built for efficiency, to cater for both types of players.
Actually even those "effective" Offensive builds will run out of steam if the current idea of "challenge" is higher and higher HP/DMG or gimmick mechanics. Furthermore, Defensive Passives allow for more flexibility in terms of build than an offensive one. Take for example the lack of Defensive Forms. A Defensive Passive user has the option to buff his dmg by simply taking a Form, such an option is not available to Offensive Toons (to take a form and buff defense). I could also go on and say that the % dmg an offensive toon takes from the Offensive Passive is hit really hard by DR because the %dmg from a Form itself brings you to DR.
I could go on and on to show the discrepancy in terms of Offensive vs Defensive passives. As I mentioned before Defensive Passives actually "scale" with the higher difficulty while Offensive Passives don't. % mitigation will affect dmg no matter how much you are hit by but % dmg boost (in case of an offensive toon) will always boost the base atk of a power independent of whether you fight someone with 5k HP and 500dps OR you fight someone with 5 milion HP and 5-10k dps (you deal the same amount of dmg to both even though you would need to do far more in the second case in order to "kill before being killed").
This is where the problem occurs, since this game relies on higher dmg and HP for "challange" Offensive Passives will die out eventually because you won't be able to "kill before being killed". Once you reach that point content becomes impossible to complete since you just die.
Actually even those "effective" Offensive builds will run out of steam if the current idea of "challenge" is higher and higher HP/DMG or gimmick mechanics. Furthermore, Defensive Passives allow for more flexibility in terms of build than an offensive one. Take for example the lack of Defensive Forms. A Defensive Passive user has the option to buff his dmg by simply taking a Form, such an option is not available to Offensive Toons (to take a form and buff defense). I could also go on and say that the % dmg an offensive toon takes from the Offensive Passive is hit really hard by DR because the %dmg from a Form itself brings you to DR.
I could go on and on to show the discrepancy in terms of Offensive vs Defensive passives. As I mentioned before Defensive Passives actually "scale" with the higher difficulty while Offensive Passives don't. % mitigation will affect dmg no matter how much you are hit by but % dmg boost (in case of an offensive toon) will always boost the base atk of a power independent of whether you fight someone with 5k HP and 500dps OR you fight someone with 5 milion HP and 5-10k dps (you deal the same amount of dmg to both even though you would need to do far more in the second case in order to "kill before being killed").
This is where the problem occurs, since this game relies on higher dmg and HP for "challange" Offensive Passives will die out eventually because you won't be able to "kill before being killed". Once you reach that point content becomes impossible to complete since you just die.
Okay, this is really starting to bug me because I really want to mention: Defense passives do NOT scale with higher forms of damage. While you reduce the damage you take by a flat %, you still take that much damage. If you get hit for 100k+ damage it doesn't matter how much realistic damage reduction you have short of immunity, odds are pretty good you're gonna faceplant hard.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that literally every single Freeform has access to an on demand defensive passive called Masterful Dodge (yes I know it's not a passive) that guarantees a huge reduction of damage plus blocking. Odds are pretty good that, in CO, if you die it's usually either because you ripped hate and couldn't handle it, were melee on Gravitar without some serious survivability, or got killed by attrition.
In a PVE game, offense is ALWAYS going to be superior simply because the ultimate CC is death. If you can kill Gravitar inside of 30 seconds (theoretically) versus killing Gravitar inside of five minutes, even if six people die in the first one, it's going to be the preferred way every time. I mean, you're even choosing to ignore that AoRP is a significant boost to resistance for DPSers (who still maintain their passives) or a DPSer with a matching passive will have significantly more resist then Regen, PFF, and potentially Invuln.
Offense, and offensive passives, will never go away simply because they provide too much strength and ease to the game. A defensive passive goes up against a viper squad with a brickbuster and they're dead, Damage or CC is going to save them and that's the job of the DPS. Likewise with the new gear, it's much easier to boost survivability to a level that means you're not getting one/two shot, as long as you're blocking and doing things properly. It just turns out that most people would rather not.
Okay, this is really starting to bug me because I really want to mention: Defense passives do NOT scale with higher forms of damage. While you reduce the damage you take by a flat %, you still take that much damage. If you get hit for 100k+ damage it doesn't matter how much realistic damage reduction you have short of immunity, odds are pretty good you're gonna faceplant hard.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that literally every single Freeform has access to an on demand defensive passive called Masterful Dodge (yes I know it's not a passive) that guarantees a huge reduction of damage plus blocking. Odds are pretty good that, in CO, if you die it's usually either because you ripped hate and couldn't handle it, were melee on Gravitar without some serious survivability, or got killed by attrition.
In a PVE game, offense is ALWAYS going to be superior simply because the ultimate CC is death. If you can kill Gravitar inside of 30 seconds (theoretically) versus killing Gravitar inside of five minutes, even if six people die in the first one, it's going to be the preferred way every time. I mean, you're even choosing to ignore that AoRP is a significant boost to resistance for DPSers (who still maintain their passives) or a DPSer with a matching passive will have significantly more resist then Regen, PFF, and potentially Invuln.
Offense, and offensive passives, will never go away simply because they provide too much strength and ease to the game. A defensive passive goes up against a viper squad with a brickbuster and they're dead, Damage or CC is going to save them and that's the job of the DPS. Likewise with the new gear, it's much easier to boost survivability to a level that means you're not getting one/two shot, as long as you're blocking and doing things properly. It just turns out that most people would rather not.
Wrong, Defensive passives do "scale" and I already explained what I mean by that which you obviously did not read or you would understand. Of course you could intentionally not get it. If odds are good you faceplant as a Defensive toon on a 100k hit then what are the odds again for an Offensive toon? Eh? Though so....:rolleyes:
MD does not prevent you from dying and is a quick way to survive temporarily. If incoming DMG is beyond your capability of handling as an Offensive toon then "kill before being killed" is impossible.
You are completely missing my point, have you even read what I wrote? No you did not, not everything at least because if you did you would understand what I'm talking about. I'm not going to repeat everything I said again just because you choose to jump into the discussion ad-hock.
When you say I choose to ignore AoRP are you delusional or can you quote me exactly where I am talking about Support Passives? I did not talk about them (would take too long to cover and write about every damned aspect possible so, get over it!)
The Gravitar example is just nonsense, what's the one thing EVERYONE tries to do when they fight Gravitar? Yeah stack as much defense as possible because once you die well....no guarantee that anyone will rez you and then you just sit there and do nothing. Killing her in 30s even if you all die is PURE FANTASY and not even remotely realistic. If that was made as an example then I tell you now that it's wrong because it's a hyperbole of an unrealistic scenario.
As I said PvP is a good example of what happens if "challange" is going to be based on higher and higher HP/DPS of mobs, namely there will be a migration towards more defense stacking. I was discusssing a couple of things in conjunction which you did not get.
So, is this going to be the new Heroic Gear if they expand the Zones to include and addition to rising level cap to 50 and obviously the zones would incorporate missions to speak of? maybe something Like East/North and Southside? Looks like they could be used/expanded, just curious/speculative.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
no. all content MUST be doable for ALL types of players. Difficulty options are how we address
different levels of effectiveness.
Yes and no. All content should be doable with all archetypes. Also, all content should be doable by casual players, meaning you should not miss stuff because you do not have the best of reflexes.
Than you can add difficulty levels to provide a challenge for more experienced players.
But if you simply refuse to block an attack, that has a long clear animation, if you just run in and aggro everything on your very squishy char, if you refuse to use anything other than your energy builder... it is ok if you fail.
Also regarding freeforms. The ff system is more than an extension of the tailor. There is a whole game mechanic behind it. So not every random combination of powers should work. If you only take attacks without even a passive you should not be able to do all content. If (pre aura patch) you wanted an ego blades char, pretend they are fire blades and use fiery form as passive for the visuals, you might be able to create a cool theme. That does not mean a decision that defies game mechanics should be viable.
I like choice, I like all the cool builds you can have. But in the end there is still a game. And your powers are more than just visuals. A cool aspect of the ff system is that you can combine powers, go for synergies and try to create a very effective character within a certain theme.
If you want some sort of balance, if you want exciting fights, not everything can work. If everything works there is no reason to have synergies or any kind of game mechanic in the first place.
May they NEVER raise the level cap in CO(or any other Cryptic MMO for that matter). Raising the cap only serves to further trivialize mostly trivial content that we do have and requires a larger than is likely possible infusion of content to make up for that. Now Cryptic North have proven to be, IMO, MUCH better than Cryptic so far but it's still alot of content just to add 10 little numbers to your toon when an Alternate Advancement System(or Boons if you prefer) would both allow players to further progress their toons while, at the same time, not raise their level.
Not to mention that if you use an AA System and remain at lvl 40 then you still have lvl 40 gear. In an alt-intensive game like CO where I'd wager the average Gold/LTS (and some froobs too probably) have considerably more than 2 toons this also translates into getting the benefits of further character advancement without all the "joy" of completely regearing an army.
Also...STO and NW already have this system. CO just needs it's Campaign Zone and we're off to the races.
Actually even those "effective" Offensive builds will run out of steam if the current idea of "challenge" is higher and higher HP/DMG or gimmick mechanics. Furthermore, Defensive Passives allow for more flexibility in terms of build than an offensive one. Take for example the lack of Defensive Forms. A Defensive Passive user has the option to buff his dmg by simply taking a Form, such an option is not available to Offensive Toons (to take a form and buff defense). I could also go on and say that the % dmg an offensive toon takes from the Offensive Passive is hit really hard by DR because the %dmg from a Form itself brings you to DR.
I could go on and on to show the discrepancy in terms of Offensive vs Defensive passives. As I mentioned before Defensive Passives actually "scale" with the higher difficulty while Offensive Passives don't. % mitigation will affect dmg no matter how much you are hit by but % dmg boost (in case of an offensive toon) will always boost the base atk of a power independent of whether you fight someone with 5k HP and 500dps OR you fight someone with 5 milion HP and 5-10k dps (you deal the same amount of dmg to both even though you would need to do far more in the second case in order to "kill before being killed").
And defense passives don't scale in any important way on fights where incoming damage is easily manageable, what is the problem here?
This is where the problem occurs, since this game relies on higher dmg and HP for "challange" Offensive Passives will die out eventually because you won't be able to "kill before being killed". Once you reach that point content becomes impossible to complete since you just die.
I am not seeing this trend, Gravitar is the only fight where you have a significant chance at dying when using a DPS build without stacking on heals and defensive buffs or constitution.
The last two new alerts have been en dps race, and a fight that uses a simple color matching mechanic that you just need to use. I can very easily tank cybermind with any of my dps builds.
And what we saw so far of the new rampage alert, it uses instant kill/whipe mechanics you need to avoid. Other than that it needs one or two tanks, one healer and the rest might just as well be dps. It doesn't have things like the random cascades we have on Gravitar, so apart from on the people who tank the two bosses, all other defense is wasted.
The only problem I am seeing when comparing 'tank builds' to 'dps builds' is that power choices have a much higher impact on performance then roles/passives.
A dps build spamming elbow slam will do much much lower damage then a tank build spamming haymaker, or in ranged terms snapshot compared to TGM.
Or when fighting large cosmics, a tank build using TGM (with minigun if don't have problems using exploits), smoke pellets and straving run will do more damage than pretty much any other build not using those.
Wrong, Defensive passives do "scale" and I already explained what I mean by that which you obviously did not read or you would understand. Of course you could intentionally not get it. If odds are good you faceplant as a Defensive toon on a 100k hit then what are the odds again for an Offensive toon? Eh? Though so....:rolleyes:
MD does not prevent you from dying and is a quick way to survive temporarily. If incoming DMG is beyond your capability of handling as an Offensive toon then "kill before being killed" is impossible.
You are completely missing my point, have you even read what I wrote? No you did not, not everything at least because if you did you would understand what I'm talking about. I'm not going to repeat everything I said again just because you choose to jump into the discussion ad-hock.
When you say I choose to ignore AoRP are you delusional or can you quote me exactly where I am talking about Support Passives? I did not talk about them (would take too long to cover and write about every damned aspect possible so, get over it!)
The Gravitar example is just nonsense, what's the one thing EVERYONE tries to do when they fight Gravitar? Yeah stack as much defense as possible because once you die well....no guarantee that anyone will rez you and then you just sit there and do nothing. Killing her in 30s even if you all die is PURE FANTASY and not even remotely realistic. If that was made as an example then I tell you now that it's wrong because it's a hyperbole of an unrealistic scenario.
As I said PvP is a good example of what happens if "challange" is going to be based on higher and higher HP/DPS of mobs, namely there will be a migration towards more defense stacking. I was discusssing a couple of things in conjunction which you did not get.
I read the explanation and I'm saying 50% is 50%. It doesn't suddenly become more then 50% simply because of reasons. We're even ignoring the fact that getting a boatload of defense isn't all that hard, as PFF and Regen players can get, nevermind that defensive passives scale worth absolute squat if you're not taking any damage.
The assumption here has always been that somehow DPS players have bugger all defense and survivability which is a problem with the player or the build, not necessarily the role. With even just the TBD/AS loop, you can EASILY push defense of one of the lesser defense passives while still maintaining your offensive passive/role, you just have to make sacrifices.
MD gives you guaranteed dodge and avoidance. Guaranteed -capped- dodge. If you are getting spam attacked or about to take a big hit (Gravitar bubbles, near death) then MD is going to singlehandedly go a long way in keeping you alive. If you're not holding hate and taking no auxiliary damage (which is the case in almost every encounter except Gravitar and some Resistance fights) then your defensive passive is actually hurting you because it's contributing approximately diddly and squat.
Please stop describing combat and encounters as some sort of nebulous "X will always happen and DPS will always get throttled" because very few, if any, encounters show up with anything remotely like that. DPS can spec for heals, they can spec for HP (through gear/stats), they can even run devices/powers for survivability (Demonic Flesh Graft, Nimbus of Force, or double active defenses) explicitly to survive while STILL maintaining an offensive passive.
Furthermore, PVP will not be the ideal of the future because PVP 1) Assumes you will be constantly taking damage and 2) Block is sought to be a non factor because of Challenging Strikes. Neither of these things is true to any capacity in PVE content, save for perhaps something like Gravitar (and even then, not really).
Hinky: PvP is only, IMO, an euphamism for Masochistic at this point really. It's the system of playing with the corpse of an intentionally murdered victim. In a nutshell, PvP = Weekend at Bernies. :biggrin:
... why is it that pvpers have such a bed rep... yet when I actually talk to pvpers they seem like rather normal, sometimes even likable people..
on the other hand, when I talk to people who hate pvp... they always end up saying some weird creepy serial killer stuff? n_n
no. all content MUST be doable for ALL types of players. Difficulty options are how we address
different levels of effectiveness.
I agree. That is why, of course, they have to even out all the powers so that all types of players, no matter what set of powers they have chosen (within reason) can do all content, given a reasonable level of effort. And of course it has to be nerfs, because if they went with buffs they would have so much more work on their hands.
I also support 100% the idea of difficulty options. Gravitar is a good example of this; that fight is a higher level difficulty option for players who want something a bit more demanding. It is an option because there's really no reason that anyone has to do the fight... you can get questionite elsewhere, and you can get the costume pieces off the auction exchange.
There's no reason that difficulty options have to be restricted to instanced missions and adventure packs/comic series. The higher difficulty content can be out in the open, with certain encounters always being higher difficulty, and other encounters always being lower difficulty; players have a choice to do those encounters or not, and the only thing that they would be missing out on is an encounter that they wouldn't likely enjoy anyway.
Comments
Agreed. What would be the point of introducing any new gear if they don't intend to release any new content?
And I don't believe that we will see any new SIGNIFICANT content any time soon. I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm predicting now we see nothing but new alerts. I don't consider something that can be finished in 30 minutes or less to be significant.
I'm also predicting we'll see plenty of additional nerfs but no SIGNIFICANT content anytime soon. One has NOTHING to do with the other.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
NO to that, COMPLETELY and UTTERLY NO. Buffing up damage only does 1 thing and that is make toons that don't take a Defensive Passive strugle. We allready have an extreme bias towards Defensive Passives in that they provide more bang for your buck than Offensive Passives.
I this happens nobody will run a Passive Offense because you would just be dead, all the time.
I laughed, really. You must not play with Personal Force Field.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Because somehow you think I was talking about PFF or because somehow you think I have to list every damned Defensive Passive. PFF is an exception, not the rule here.
Because you generalized Defense Passives. Personal Force Field is a Defense Passive.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
On the subject of PFF, at least it provides some defensive benefit. Yes, it's the redheaded step child of the defensive passives but it still gives more survivability than AoED, AoAC or the energy form offensive passives outside of their defensive niche. And I am aware AoED and AoAC are support passives, which really just makes those characters even more reliant on active abilities to stay alive through spike due to them likely being in support role which cuts max hp.
Give me a break, what am I supposed to do write paragraphs explaining every single thing just because the likes of you lack common sense to understand what I'm saying. PFF is the exception, but the rule still stands. Defense is more valuable than Offense in this game and this bias has always existed.
It certainly would be more helpful to get your point across if you detailed what you were trying to say instead of generalizing everything. :biggrin:
Edit:
But to clarify. If Defense passives are oh so much better than Offense Passives...why then do I see more Offense Passive players than Defense Passive?
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
That is a generalization, what I did was to mention that there is a skew/bias towards Defense which holds even for PFF. While it might not be on par with the other Defensive Passives it still provides defense.
Seriously, you are just being pedantic about something which is completely besides the point. I was not arguing about PFF, I was talking about Defensive Passives in GENERAL. The point was not to talk about each defensive passive but about the DEFENSE they provide in comparison to the OFFENSE boost an Offensive Passive gives.
You are just trolling at this point. You know what I meant and for some reason you got all QQ about me including PFF in the Defensive Passive comment. PFF is a Defensive Passive and it does provide defense if we really get down to it.
No idea why you are seeing that because I see the exact opposite.
I QQ'd (as you so aptly put it) over nothing. I merely made a comment about your mindset of the game being biased towards Defense Passives. Yes, PFF is a Defense Passive. And *NO* you do *not* get more bang for your buck with it. Every Offense Passive outshines PFF by a long shot. I don't see the game as being biased towards any play style, except crowd control. I can do all the same content with an Offense Passive that I can with a Defense Passive, sometimes better. Take your bias elsewhere.
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Quoted for reiteration that this is completely opinion.
Yeah I can do this to you know. How about you stop getting all flustered and get it through your skull that I was not talking about PFF. I did not mention it because I did not feel like mentioning something that was obvious. It's not obvious to YOU? Well too bad:rolleyes:
How about you make a useful comment, the last ones are just trolling. Nothing you said was anything but you being pedantic.
Ooooh!
It's "Being Pedantic" vs. "Pages of Rage" in an epic showdown to see which one is actually less profitable!
There was a useful comment in my last post, you just happened to overlook it because you saw me mention a particular power again and decided to flip. I'll quote it here so you can see it completely.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
The problem is that if you buff offense too much you have people crying because of duels.
In PvE you would need a lot more %dmg to be able to mitigate as much dmg (by sheer kill power) as a Defensive Passive user can. The issues become more evident when facing extreme dmg content like Gravitar.
Think about it:
20% base dmg boost on a power that does 1000 dmg -> 1200
20% mitigation (actual mitigation not Cryptic) out of 1000 -> 800 ( 200 difference) but out of something like 10 000 -> 8000 (2000 difference)
Basically the issue is that mitigation scales alongside dmg taken (the more incoming dmg the more you mitigate) while the damage output of the toon is the same whether you fight a Hencmen or a Legendary/Cosmic. (actually it would be less for Legendarily/Cosmics due to their innate higher %mitigation)
Most of the people that PvP nowadays build on the tanky side anyway. Offense can use some help in its current state.
I think thats why he thinks that there is a bias towards defensive passives, because he either watches to much pvp, or pvps himself, or both. But in the world of pve I tend to see a little more offensive based passives than defensive based passives, but thats how I typically end up in things. It might differ per person though due to luck and/or the randomness that comes with groups in alerts.
Oh did your crystal ball tell you all that? And no I don't PvP except for the occasional duel.
The bias towards Defensive Passives is obvious but you must not be good with numbers that's why you don't see it.
Let me break it down for you:
- defense scales with incoming damage
- offense does not scale based on the type of enemies you fight
Not sure why you are telling me this. I wasn't arguing with you to begin with. Or do you want to get into another argument, for thats what your past few posts have been looking like, you trying to provoke people into arguing with you.
I honestly don't understand what your gripe is. Defense scales with incoming damage? Oh please teach us your mystical ways. As far as I knew, Defense was given by gear and/or passives to mitigate incoming damage. Of course you're going to see lower incoming damage numbers with a defense passive. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. And you're going to see higher damage output numbers with, *gasp*, an Offense passive. Why? THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. You're badgering a moot point and quite frankly, starting to not make any sense what-so-ever.
Where you're coming up with "defense scales to incoming damage" is beyond me. As for "offense does not scale based on type of enemies"...no. If you want more offense, gear/spec/stat/power pick for it. Same for defense.
"I swear some people can't pour water from a bucket even if it has instructions printed on the bottom." -EVE Online pilot
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
You were the one who accused me of being a PvPer and dismissed my statement on such basis so yeah:rolleyes:
The fact that you don't get what I'm saying does not invalidate anything I say.
Spare me your condescending nonsense will you, I'm not saying that Defense gives protection and Offense gives damage OK.
I'll try to point it out again, if you don't get it then I would suggest to stop replying because it's YOU who does not get what I'm trying to say and there's not point in having a discussion.
What I was talking about was regarding the statement to buff Offensive Passives in conjunction with the statement saying that NPC dmg should be buffed. I was saying that it won't be possible because people will complain. I also said that in order to mitigate as much damage and a Defensive Passive user, and Offensive Passive user would need to do a LOT more dmg.
The problem here is that defense is always a %mitigation so you will always take a certain % amount of dmg less from an incoming attack (I'm not talking about PFF which works differently). Now, since no matter the attack you only take % dmg of it, it automatically "scales" with the NPC you fight. As such, the more dmg and NPC does to you the more dmg your defense will protect you for. By this I don't mean % wise but number wise. IE: with 20% mitigation a 1000 dmg atk deals 800 but a 10 000 atk deals 8000. The point of this is to noticed that in the first case you get hit with 200 dmg less while in the second with 2000. This is pretty obvious and nothing new, the point is to notice that dmg does not work the same way!
With % dmg buffs no matter what NPC you fight you will still do the same amount of dmg to them. As such, at some point the NPC you fight will be so strong (HP/dmg wise) that you won't be able to "kill them before they kill you" because your dmg is not a % of their health (like defense gives you a % of an enemy's attack) to be able to kill them faster.
The point I'm trying to make is both obvious (to me) and subtle. Offensive Passives need a boost to compensate for the amount of Defense that is lost. The issue here is that you can't boost their dmg too much because then in PvP/Duels people will start complaining.
If Offense would work like Defense then you would do a % ammount of damage out of an NPC HP with powers. This % would change based on the NPC rank and lvl so to a low lvl Henchmen for example you would deal 100% dmg with an attack (so one shot it) but to a lvl 40 MV you would to 20-30%dmg (just throwing numbers here) per tick/charge whatever.
This would mean that when you get %dmg buff, you buff yourself proportionally to the enemies you fight and not buff a base number like it currently is.
This of course is not possible since it would require absurd amount of work but the point still remains. Defense will always be better than Offense and if you are in an environment with HIGH dmg being dealt to you then the Offensive Passive toon will simply not be able to do that much dmg to be able to kill thing around him to follow the "kill be fore being killed" principle.
That is why I was against simply increase NPC dmg to increase "difficulty". This won't work and it will simply make Defensive Passives more and more desirable.
If you still do not get what I'm trying to say then just move on because we don't have anything to discuss then. You would be arguing with me, based on something I said that you don't actually understand, which would be absurd.
No I said I duel, it's different than joining BASH or any other PvP thing out there. Duno if 1 duel every couple of month counts. It's like saying you drink because you have a beer once every half a year. Anyways, not like it matters anymore.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Dueling is still pvp. XD
Whoa whoa whoa there! Dueling is PVP? NO WAY! Cause PVP stands to Player verse Player and dueling does not go through BASH! It only happens when a player challenges me or I challenge another play...er...
O. . .M. . .G!
Or Water Powerset.
Thats also been a popular request in the past.
How about compelling content? New costumes and powersets are nice but without new things to do it all feels hollow to me. I'm talking new zone with a real storyline (or several), not just a new alert.
And no, I do not want a pony while I'm dreaming.
True, we do need more content, especially late game content.
What I would be happy with is new APs or Comic series. Also, Elite difficulty desperately needs addressing. Those of us who opt for practical, effective builds already outperform Elite difficulty. It needs to be bumped up a whole lot to keep that portion of players at the edge of their seats and really fight to win.
Well thing is, to me that is quite obvious so it's not really easy to know what to point out. That's why I just explained everything. But in all honesty, it's not something new or groundbreaking it's simply an obvious but somehow omitted issue when it comes to Offensive vs Defensive Passives.
I could further add the fact that an Offensive Passive + Form gets you into sever DR, in fact taking a Form brings you to the limit of DR so the Offensive Passive bonus is entirely affected by DR.
This is why I am against just blindly buffing dmg of NPC, it will obliterate Offensive Passives since they can't "scale" the way Defensive Passives do (except PFF ).
This is why the dodge nerf was uncalled for. If Cryptic adds now more content that is "challenging" (more HP & dmg) then Offensive Passives will be simply left behind. There is no way an Offensive toon can compensate for where "challenge" is heading in this game namely, more HP and higher DMG of NPCs.
In fact PvP is a good example of this future scenario. The extreme amount of dmg that is going around in BASH for example would kill anyone there with an Offensive Passive. If we consider BASH as an example of how future content will look like (and let's be honest that's what will happen, Cryptic will boost DMG and HP or add a gimmick one shot kill mechanics) then we can see why PvPers switch to Defensive Passives. While you might do less dmg the sheer survivability gained is more than worth it since again, you can't DPS while you are dead lol.
I've been trying to explain this for months to people and they don't get it even though it's so obvious. It's like Defensive Passives is an exponential function while Offensive Passives are like a ln (logarithm). Defensive Passive's benefit adjusts itself to higher dmg of NPC while for Offensive Passives there is a limit and once that is hit you are dead and you will be dead for any content which exceeds this limit.
The core design behind offensive passives seems to be "higher damage, weaker survivability". That means that the offensive build player has to limit flexibility and go for powers to cover for lower survivability compared to defensive build player who doesn't. I get nightrod's concern when it comes to buffing enemy damage in this case. Increasing difficulty across the board can be unfair for players who don't go the "effectively practical" route of building, which is why there has to be a segregation between content that anyone regardless of build can excel in and content that tests the limits of those players built for efficiency, to cater for both types of players.
You realise the content in question is 5 man content right? I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be able to solo this with any power choice and green gear.
Also who was it who took being called a PvP'er as an insult? I'm sort of insulted by that I must say... <.< FYI PvP wise I haven't used a defensive passive for ages not that I'm saying that atleast half or more of people who PvP use a defensive passive or AOPM.
Too be honest pretty much anything is viable, in PvE you wont really be killed that easy no matter what you use as long as you use whatever it is correctly. In PvP you will pretty much always have to have 1 or 2 atleast powers selected from the 'cheese cookie cut' 5% of powers in CO.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Ooooh no, please....let's not start the hashtag nonsense again...please. :eek:
<looks at other two games, then looks at CO>
I'm for a Campaign Zone with an Alternate Advancement System(Boons if you will), no LvL Cap increases(too much problems and AA Systems are, IMO, vastly superior and less damaging to the game itself), and......Champions Online Episode 1: <Space Reserved for Snazzy Title>. Course, that's just me.
Cute sentiment but, in case you haven't noticed, a large portion of the playerbase(FF and AT alike) suck rocks through a paper straw. They would find a way to die in a game of Pong. Content cannot be doable for all types of players....but functioning difficulty sliders with Elite simply upping drop changes for rares on the same tables that "normal"(or people who suck rocks through a paper straw) can obtain is somewhat more realistic IMO.
Hinky: PvP is only, IMO, an euphamism for Masochistic at this point really. It's the system of playing with the corpse of an intentionally murdered victim. In a nutshell, PvP = Weekend at Bernies. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Actually even those "effective" Offensive builds will run out of steam if the current idea of "challenge" is higher and higher HP/DMG or gimmick mechanics. Furthermore, Defensive Passives allow for more flexibility in terms of build than an offensive one. Take for example the lack of Defensive Forms. A Defensive Passive user has the option to buff his dmg by simply taking a Form, such an option is not available to Offensive Toons (to take a form and buff defense). I could also go on and say that the % dmg an offensive toon takes from the Offensive Passive is hit really hard by DR because the %dmg from a Form itself brings you to DR.
I could go on and on to show the discrepancy in terms of Offensive vs Defensive passives. As I mentioned before Defensive Passives actually "scale" with the higher difficulty while Offensive Passives don't. % mitigation will affect dmg no matter how much you are hit by but % dmg boost (in case of an offensive toon) will always boost the base atk of a power independent of whether you fight someone with 5k HP and 500dps OR you fight someone with 5 milion HP and 5-10k dps (you deal the same amount of dmg to both even though you would need to do far more in the second case in order to "kill before being killed").
This is where the problem occurs, since this game relies on higher dmg and HP for "challange" Offensive Passives will die out eventually because you won't be able to "kill before being killed". Once you reach that point content becomes impossible to complete since you just die.
Okay, this is really starting to bug me because I really want to mention: Defense passives do NOT scale with higher forms of damage. While you reduce the damage you take by a flat %, you still take that much damage. If you get hit for 100k+ damage it doesn't matter how much realistic damage reduction you have short of immunity, odds are pretty good you're gonna faceplant hard.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that literally every single Freeform has access to an on demand defensive passive called Masterful Dodge (yes I know it's not a passive) that guarantees a huge reduction of damage plus blocking. Odds are pretty good that, in CO, if you die it's usually either because you ripped hate and couldn't handle it, were melee on Gravitar without some serious survivability, or got killed by attrition.
In a PVE game, offense is ALWAYS going to be superior simply because the ultimate CC is death. If you can kill Gravitar inside of 30 seconds (theoretically) versus killing Gravitar inside of five minutes, even if six people die in the first one, it's going to be the preferred way every time. I mean, you're even choosing to ignore that AoRP is a significant boost to resistance for DPSers (who still maintain their passives) or a DPSer with a matching passive will have significantly more resist then Regen, PFF, and potentially Invuln.
Offense, and offensive passives, will never go away simply because they provide too much strength and ease to the game. A defensive passive goes up against a viper squad with a brickbuster and they're dead, Damage or CC is going to save them and that's the job of the DPS. Likewise with the new gear, it's much easier to boost survivability to a level that means you're not getting one/two shot, as long as you're blocking and doing things properly. It just turns out that most people would rather not.
Wrong, Defensive passives do "scale" and I already explained what I mean by that which you obviously did not read or you would understand. Of course you could intentionally not get it. If odds are good you faceplant as a Defensive toon on a 100k hit then what are the odds again for an Offensive toon? Eh? Though so....:rolleyes:
MD does not prevent you from dying and is a quick way to survive temporarily. If incoming DMG is beyond your capability of handling as an Offensive toon then "kill before being killed" is impossible.
You are completely missing my point, have you even read what I wrote? No you did not, not everything at least because if you did you would understand what I'm talking about. I'm not going to repeat everything I said again just because you choose to jump into the discussion ad-hock.
When you say I choose to ignore AoRP are you delusional or can you quote me exactly where I am talking about Support Passives? I did not talk about them (would take too long to cover and write about every damned aspect possible so, get over it!)
The Gravitar example is just nonsense, what's the one thing EVERYONE tries to do when they fight Gravitar? Yeah stack as much defense as possible because once you die well....no guarantee that anyone will rez you and then you just sit there and do nothing. Killing her in 30s even if you all die is PURE FANTASY and not even remotely realistic. If that was made as an example then I tell you now that it's wrong because it's a hyperbole of an unrealistic scenario.
As I said PvP is a good example of what happens if "challange" is going to be based on higher and higher HP/DPS of mobs, namely there will be a migration towards more defense stacking. I was discusssing a couple of things in conjunction which you did not get.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Yes and no. All content should be doable with all archetypes. Also, all content should be doable by casual players, meaning you should not miss stuff because you do not have the best of reflexes.
Than you can add difficulty levels to provide a challenge for more experienced players.
But if you simply refuse to block an attack, that has a long clear animation, if you just run in and aggro everything on your very squishy char, if you refuse to use anything other than your energy builder... it is ok if you fail.
Also regarding freeforms. The ff system is more than an extension of the tailor. There is a whole game mechanic behind it. So not every random combination of powers should work. If you only take attacks without even a passive you should not be able to do all content. If (pre aura patch) you wanted an ego blades char, pretend they are fire blades and use fiery form as passive for the visuals, you might be able to create a cool theme. That does not mean a decision that defies game mechanics should be viable.
I like choice, I like all the cool builds you can have. But in the end there is still a game. And your powers are more than just visuals. A cool aspect of the ff system is that you can combine powers, go for synergies and try to create a very effective character within a certain theme.
If you want some sort of balance, if you want exciting fights, not everything can work. If everything works there is no reason to have synergies or any kind of game mechanic in the first place.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
May they NEVER raise the level cap in CO(or any other Cryptic MMO for that matter). Raising the cap only serves to further trivialize mostly trivial content that we do have and requires a larger than is likely possible infusion of content to make up for that. Now Cryptic North have proven to be, IMO, MUCH better than Cryptic so far but it's still alot of content just to add 10 little numbers to your toon when an Alternate Advancement System(or Boons if you prefer) would both allow players to further progress their toons while, at the same time, not raise their level.
Not to mention that if you use an AA System and remain at lvl 40 then you still have lvl 40 gear. In an alt-intensive game like CO where I'd wager the average Gold/LTS (and some froobs too probably) have considerably more than 2 toons this also translates into getting the benefits of further character advancement without all the "joy" of completely regearing an army.
Also...STO and NW already have this system. CO just needs it's Campaign Zone and we're off to the races.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
And defense passives don't scale in any important way on fights where incoming damage is easily manageable, what is the problem here?
I am not seeing this trend, Gravitar is the only fight where you have a significant chance at dying when using a DPS build without stacking on heals and defensive buffs or constitution.
The last two new alerts have been en dps race, and a fight that uses a simple color matching mechanic that you just need to use. I can very easily tank cybermind with any of my dps builds.
And what we saw so far of the new rampage alert, it uses instant kill/whipe mechanics you need to avoid. Other than that it needs one or two tanks, one healer and the rest might just as well be dps. It doesn't have things like the random cascades we have on Gravitar, so apart from on the people who tank the two bosses, all other defense is wasted.
The only problem I am seeing when comparing 'tank builds' to 'dps builds' is that power choices have a much higher impact on performance then roles/passives.
A dps build spamming elbow slam will do much much lower damage then a tank build spamming haymaker, or in ranged terms snapshot compared to TGM.
Or when fighting large cosmics, a tank build using TGM (with minigun if don't have problems using exploits), smoke pellets and straving run will do more damage than pretty much any other build not using those.
I read the explanation and I'm saying 50% is 50%. It doesn't suddenly become more then 50% simply because of reasons. We're even ignoring the fact that getting a boatload of defense isn't all that hard, as PFF and Regen players can get, nevermind that defensive passives scale worth absolute squat if you're not taking any damage.
The assumption here has always been that somehow DPS players have bugger all defense and survivability which is a problem with the player or the build, not necessarily the role. With even just the TBD/AS loop, you can EASILY push defense of one of the lesser defense passives while still maintaining your offensive passive/role, you just have to make sacrifices.
MD gives you guaranteed dodge and avoidance. Guaranteed -capped- dodge. If you are getting spam attacked or about to take a big hit (Gravitar bubbles, near death) then MD is going to singlehandedly go a long way in keeping you alive. If you're not holding hate and taking no auxiliary damage (which is the case in almost every encounter except Gravitar and some Resistance fights) then your defensive passive is actually hurting you because it's contributing approximately diddly and squat.
Please stop describing combat and encounters as some sort of nebulous "X will always happen and DPS will always get throttled" because very few, if any, encounters show up with anything remotely like that. DPS can spec for heals, they can spec for HP (through gear/stats), they can even run devices/powers for survivability (Demonic Flesh Graft, Nimbus of Force, or double active defenses) explicitly to survive while STILL maintaining an offensive passive.
Furthermore, PVP will not be the ideal of the future because PVP 1) Assumes you will be constantly taking damage and 2) Block is sought to be a non factor because of Challenging Strikes. Neither of these things is true to any capacity in PVE content, save for perhaps something like Gravitar (and even then, not really).
... why is it that pvpers have such a bed rep... yet when I actually talk to pvpers they seem like rather normal, sometimes even likable people..
on the other hand, when I talk to people who hate pvp... they always end up saying some weird creepy serial killer stuff? n_n
I agree. That is why, of course, they have to even out all the powers so that all types of players, no matter what set of powers they have chosen (within reason) can do all content, given a reasonable level of effort. And of course it has to be nerfs, because if they went with buffs they would have so much more work on their hands.
I also support 100% the idea of difficulty options. Gravitar is a good example of this; that fight is a higher level difficulty option for players who want something a bit more demanding. It is an option because there's really no reason that anyone has to do the fight... you can get questionite elsewhere, and you can get the costume pieces off the auction exchange.
There's no reason that difficulty options have to be restricted to instanced missions and adventure packs/comic series. The higher difficulty content can be out in the open, with certain encounters always being higher difficulty, and other encounters always being lower difficulty; players have a choice to do those encounters or not, and the only thing that they would be missing out on is an encounter that they wouldn't likely enjoy anyway.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.