Can anyone else look into this issue please.

theravenforce · November 2013

Hi guys,

It seems that a few things have been VERY different since the introduction of the LTS Rewards patch, both for the better and for worse.

I have noticed a few things which have been changed/bugged themselves since that patch.

Disorient Values
Shadow of Doubt Value
Ebon Sigils

First of all:

DISORIENT - Used to be:

◾10% damage reduction
◾20% movement speed reduction

It is currently:

◾9.1% damage reduction
◾13% movement speed reduction

Shadow of Doubt - Used to be:

◾-6% all damage strength to affected targets

It is currently:

◾-5.7% all damage strength to affected targets

(And yes tooltip is still half wrong for this power, and it has no SFX.)

EBON SIGILS: - For this power, the wiki states that it should be the following:

◾12% damage reduction
◾80% movement speed reduction

At Rank 3 with NO PRE, specs or gear, just a level 40 at base level, no talents or anything.

The current values at Rank 3 for a level 40 with 208 PRE:

◾24% damage reduction
◾45% movement speed reduction

Rank 3 @ level 40 with 324 PRE:

◾30% damage reduction
◾45% movement speed reduction

It seems like the movement speed has been capped and possibly the dmg reduction has been reduced in scaling.

I distinctly remember these effects working better than they currently do.

To my knowledge, Disorient and the debuff on Shadow of Doubt are set in stone as in they are not affected (or meant to be affected) by outside powers or values.

I'd appreciate some response as to why this has happened, whether it was intended or not.

I'd also be grateful to those who could have a look at other debuffs and see if their values are higher or lower than previously remembered or thought, especially those which are meant to be unchanging.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT:

Mental Storm's Stress Debuff does not have this issue.

Fear - across all powers is now 9.1% damage debuff. Down from 10%

Ego Placate - now 9.1% damage debuff. Down from 10%

Seems to be a damage debuffing issue that has suffered these nerfs.

EDIT 2:

Bountiful Chi Resurgence's debuff to all damage upon activation is DOWN from 10% to 9.1%

EDIT 3:

All Forms seem to have this issue as well, 9.1% cost increase instead of 10% on all of the forms and IDF

EDIT 4:

Personal Force Field Passive has re-acquired it's in combat regen debuff to shield regeneration per 3 seconds. This was removed a while ago. This reversion coincided with the dodge change and the fix to PFF taking damage when holds were applied and you tried to break out.

EDIT 5:

Smoke Grenade has been severely altered to such a degree it is effectively a nerf. Details are:

Rank 1 - Is now 83% down from 500%

EDIT 6:

Shamballah Vampires (Master Villains, level 39, Vibora Bay) are HIGHLY resistant to Crowd Control effects. (Try Ego Sleep on them). Similar to what was wrong with Fatal Err0r processes.

theravenforce · November 2013

So, does anyone know if this is intended or not?

aetam1 · November 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

So, does anyone know if this is intended or not?

No idea if that is intended or not but you should probably bump this after the weekend. Don't think your chances of a dev response are high before monday.

championshewolf · November 2013

It's called diminishing returns. there is no point it just magically starts, ti starts as soon as you apply to stats, and any stat increase it applies to. Damage is especially effected by this, though I have no idea how you are actually able to tell how much movement speed is really being affected.

crypticbuxom · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

It's called diminishing returns.

Its called numbers being changed in the patch that weren't announced.

theravenforce · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

It's called diminishing returns. there is no point it just magically starts, ti starts as soon as you apply to stats, and any stat increase it applies to. Damage is especially effected by this, though I have no idea how you are actually able to tell how much movement speed is really being affected.

I am inclined to tell you this view is incorrect. Why?

Nothing I am aware of scales or increases the effects of DISORIENT. It is not a debuff which scales with Presence or any other stat and cannot be ranked up at all, so the actual base numbers have been altered.

The same applies for Shadow Of Doubt's Regret Debuff. That value is a STATIC value and specifically does not change as it was made that way, the stacking debuff it provides works on a 6% per stack basis = a total of -24% damage strength to target debuff which CANNOT stack on a target past 4 regardless of the amount of people using it.

The fact that this percentage in particular has been nerfed, intentionally or otherwise, is a large issue.

I actually ran the numbers for Shadow of Doubt at level 6 with no gear or SS or anything and the value was still -5.7%. This proves that the value does not change and is meant to be static, the same goes for Disorient's values.

Please be aware that NOTHING increases or decreases the % reduction to damage strength that Shadow of Doubt's Regret Debuff does, so the values MUST have been changed on an internal level.

This also applies to Disorient Debuff.

Before the patch everyone's values were -6% to all dmg strength regardless of build, role or spec choices or form usage, now it has decreased, therefore it is an issue.

(6% is said to operate outside DR so it becomes a real 24% (when stacked) which is why it is fairly useful in combat, lowering this number makes it less helpful. If for some crazy reason DR has been applied to SoD's Regret Debuff then the percentage is debuffs by would need to be increased by a sizeable amount to make it anywhere near as effective.)

As for Ebon Sigils, I am very aware of the values my builds contain and I am able to see if something has changed significantly or not for my own build.

I ran into BASH with my healer/debuffer who uses Ebon Sigils and players were able to move significantly faster through the sigil's AoE than before, also the massive reduction in the % movement speed was noticeable.

jonsills · November 2013

In at least the case of the "error" of 0.3%, and possibly some others - perhaps it's a rounding issue?

kaiserin · November 2013

Shadow of Doubt reads out as 6% on live.

Ebon Sigil isn't capping, it's going up in ranks appropriately (R1 is 36, R2 40, R3 45). The values are lower then the wiki states, yes.

Presence scaling for -damage seems fine? You would need evidence from a prior patch showing it had better values.

mrhinkypunk · November 2013

Impact from overseer also has something like this where it's a lower number that has a decimal place, it seems rather odd.

Also smoke grenade seems to have lost a 0 off it's number in the tooltip atleast, no idea if it's still working the same or not.

theravenforce · November 2013

kaizerin wrote: »

Shadow of Doubt reads out as 6% on live.

Ebon Sigil isn't capping, it's going up in ranks appropriately (R1 is 36, R2 40, R3 45). The values are lower then the wiki states, yes.

Presence scaling for -damage seems fine? You would need evidence from a prior patch showing it had better values.

Shadow of Doubt, Regret Debuff:

Hmm, I'd have to go on today and check in case something has changed.

I only posted the SoD as an issue because I was getting -5.7% both on my level 40 who is fully geared and a level 6 toon.

I don't know many people who use New Telepathy, who'd be able to report numbers. But I really hope it is not an internal thing.

Since the powers were made (to be debuffs with static values) there have only been two changes.

- First change never made it to LIVE cause it was a mistake (60% instead of 6% per stack)

- Second change is the loss of 0.3% which is (as of when I posted this) 5.7% instead of 6%.

Ebon Sigils:

As for the damage debuff on Ebon Sigils, sadly I have no data on Pre patch values, but I am inclined to believe it may have changed slightly.

Update for Ebon Sigils:

EDIT: A build with over 700 PRE which used to get 80% debuff to dmg and 100% slow is now getting 45/45% in both, which seems to line up with the movement speed debuff being capped at some level.

Hmm, Kaizerin, I am not sure what SoD you are seeing, but on both accounts I am seeing -5.7% on a new character and Mentella (lvl 40 CC focused toon), I'll screen and post it here in a sec.

Here is what I am seeing on LIVE right now (as of 4:50 AM Server Time):

Mentella:

And on a level 6 newly made toon (as of 4:56 AM Server Time):

Notice: Please note that even though it says "Mental Storm" it is actually meant to be Shadow of Doubt. Mental Storm applies the debuff STRESS not Regret. This half of the tooltip is incorrect on SoD.

SoD = Regret, Mental Storm = Stress and Mental Leech = Dependency.

theravenforce · November 2013

aetam1 wrote: »

No idea if that is intended or not but you should probably bump this after the weekend. Don't think your chances of a dev response are high before monday.

Yeah, I'll be bumping this thread on Monday

theravenforce · November 2013

Aforementioned Thread BUMP has arrived!

I'd really appreciate a response from the Devs to at least acknowledge there is an issue OR this has just been changed.

(If it has been changed, particularly SoD, I'd love to know why.)

avianos · November 2013

I noticed the same as well! There is another thread mentioning the Smoke Grenade, Sigils of Ebon Weakness nerf!

But NOT Disorient and Impact (Overseer)

I don't understand why! Is this Ninja Nerf intented? or did someone made a mistake on the Code with the last Patch Update like they did with the PFF regen?

taking Disoriented Debuff from 10% to 9.1% hurts my OCD

championshewolf · November 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

I am inclined to tell you this view is incorrect. Why?

Actually, all stats are affected by diminishing returns, hence why dodge on powers like LR had to be made flat numbers instead of part of the power scaling to make them more effective. Furthermore, mobs have always had a type of resistance to debuffing, this is not an effect that just started happening it's been there pretty much since launch, since big critters reduce the effectiveness of debuffs quite a bit. If you play on elite the resistance to debuff is actually much greater for mobs and level variance plays quite a bit into this as well.

aetam1 · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Actually, all stats are affected by diminishing returns, hence why dodge on powers like LR had to be made flat numbers instead of part of the power scaling to make them more effective. Furthermore, mobs have always had a type of resistance to debuffing, this is not an effect that just started happening it's been there pretty much since launch, since big critters reduce the effectiveness of debuffs quite a bit. If you play on elite the resistance to debuff is actually much greater for mobs and level variance plays quite a bit into this as well.

But she did post a screenshot of a tooltip reading 5.7%. How can the tooltip of a debuff have diminishing returns? It can't interact with any resists before being cast.

theravenforce · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Actually, all stats are affected by diminishing returns, hence why dodge on powers like LR had to be made flat numbers instead of part of the power scaling to make them more effective. Furthermore, mobs have always had a type of resistance to debuffing, this is not an effect that just started happening it's been there pretty much since launch, since big critters reduce the effectiveness of debuffs quite a bit. If you play on elite the resistance to debuff is actually much greater for mobs and level variance plays quite a bit into this as well.

Perhaps I was not clear. I am not refuting the fact that stats are subject to DR, I am asking why values which..DO NOT SCALE ON STATS OR RANK, have been lowered, I am inclined to think Ebon Sigils is intended, Disorient is not and SoD was definitely not intended.

As it has already been pointed out, you cannot resist something which hasn't hit you. The screens of the powers tool tip. The value I am concerned about is meant to be static, an example of a static value would be the level 40 number, you cannot become level 40 then progress to higher levels or revert yourself to level 39 or lower (unless you re do the entire character). The same logic applies here, SoD's value is meant to be a static -6%, this does not change regardless of rank, level, stats, specs or anything, not even BCR lowers this value, since it is a debuff value and not a damage value.

That is my concern.

championshewolf · November 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

Perhaps I was not clear. I am not refuting the fact that stats are subject to DR, I am asking why values which..DO NOT SCALE ON STATS OR RANK, have been lowered, I am inclined to think Ebon Sigils is intended, Disorient is not and SoD was definitely not intended.

As it has already been pointed out, you cannot resist something which hasn't hit you. The screens of the powers tool tip. The value I am concerned about is meant to be static, an example of a static value would be the level 40 number, you cannot become level 40 then progress to higher levels or revert yourself to level 39 or lower (unless you re do the entire character). The same logic applies here, SoD's value is meant to be a static -6%, this does not change regardless of rank, level, stats, specs or anything, not even BCR lowers this value, since it is a debuff value and not a damage value.

That is my concern.

Well let's ignore DR and proclaim you are right since you ignored pretty much anything else I said and completely ignored what I meant about level variance to. Now pretending the numbers are static, like you claim, you forget mobs have resistance to debuffing. This was put in place a long time ago when people would abuse debuff stacking and make mobs so vulnerable they were getting damage multipliers. In short, even if you get a flat number your number is not going to be 100% due to target resistance. This is not new either it's been in for a long time.

Secondly, level variance, is not your level. It's your level versus their's. If they are higher level, the more resistant they are to your attacks. Plain and simple.

aiqa · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Well let's ignore DR and proclaim you are right since you ignored pretty much anything else I said and completely ignored what I meant about level variance to. Now pretending the numbers are static, like you claim, you forget mobs have resistance to debuffing. This was put in place a long time ago when people would abuse debuff stacking and make mobs so vulnerable they were getting damage multipliers. In short, even if you get a flat number your number is not going to be 100% due to target resistance. This is not new either it's been in for a long time.

Secondly, level variance, is not your level. It's your level versus their's. If they are higher level, the more resistant they are to your attacks. Plain and simple.

I am curious how this would effect numbers showing up in the description of the powers applying disorient. When I am attacking someone with resistance to my damage, the tooltips still show the unmitigated damage.

If the description of disorient really showed the numbers on the wiki before the last few patches, 'something' changed. It doesn't actually matter if it is the debuff itself or only the description, it would be nice if such changes were added to the release notes.

Or if they were unintended, be looked over and fixed.

theravenforce · November 2013

championshewolf wrote: »

Well let's ignore DR and proclaim you are right since you ignored pretty much anything else I said and completely ignored what I meant about level variance to. Now pretending the numbers are static, like you claim, you forget mobs have resistance to debuffing. This was put in place a long time ago when people would abuse debuff stacking and make mobs so vulnerable they were getting damage multipliers. In short, even if you get a flat number your number is not going to be 100% due to target resistance. This is not new either it's been in for a long time.

Secondly, level variance, is not your level. It's your level versus their's. If they are higher level, the more resistant they are to your attacks. Plain and simple.

Wow. I am honestly not sure if you are not fully grasping what I mean or if you are just not reading what I am concerned about correctly.

Before this patch, on Shadow of Doubt, the value was "-6% to all damage strength." I know this because:

1) I've used the various versions of this power since it first hit PTS

2) I tested it for build purposes and to contribute to the wiki. Here along with the five other additions to New Telepathy. Trust me I know these powers well and I am well aware of what they SHOULD be doing and what they should NOT be doing.

This change in value is not something which has happened before nor is it meant to happen. Simply because this value is a given value, not subject to DR, which is why it is so small a value. Therefore an increase or a decrease would not be due to DR like you claim but would be the effect of internal manipulation of values, intended or unintended.

I know that variance occurs from tooltip to actual damage based on level of the foe. BUT this is a debuff, not a damage value, debuffs do not change based on targets at least not tooltip value wise.

Bosses have a 25% cap (or so) on them which means that they cannot be affected by debuffs past 25% cap. So Ebon Sigils's values would not lower in the presence of a boss automatically on tooltip, they would remain the same, only in combat when having an effect will they be capped vs boss resistance.

In a similar vein, New Telepathy Debuffs, Regret and Stress both have -6% values which stack to 4 so = -24% debuff to damage strength or resistance to ego damage. (Regret/Stress respectively), which is just below the 25% cap.

The issue which you seem to have ignored from my posts is that the base value which is meant to be "set in stone" not subject to change via stats, mobs, specs or gear....has changed.

Understand that the -6% operates outside DR, then you will understand what I am trying to show you. Because it operates outside DR (or is meant to, TMK, it has not changed) the value is incredibly small because of the impact it has.

My target can have 10k % resistance to all damage, this would not impact my debuff percentage on tooltip, and in the case of SoD it wouldn't affect it either, it would just affect my damage to target.

An example:

I am using Invulnerability Passive Rank 3, granting me 143 absorb and 68% resistance to all damage.

You are using Ice Blast Rank 3 which on your tooltip deals 2000 Cold Damage to target on full charge.

If everything was working on this value and there was no variance possible in my resistances (as they all came from Invuln, my defense is at 0) or from your damage (you consistently hit 2k on everything)

The incoming damage I would take thanks to Invuln would be 1217 (2000) Cold Damage from your Ice Blast.

My resistances would not automatically change the values you see on your tooltip, would it?

No, of course not. Just like your personal "base damage" shown on tooltip does not change based on enemy resistances when you scroll over the power.

That is what is happening here. My proof on the page beforehand does not show stills from being in combat, one is from a level 40 standing next to Major Bonilla at Argent HQ and the other is in the MC Powerhouse at level 6.

Even with the power UNSELECTED, I am still seeing an issue with the % on the debuff.

Therefore the issue is not the magical intervention of sudden DR which has taken at least 3 months (from SoD's arrival on LIVE) to where we are now.

If you haven't used these powers before then you may not fully understand what I mean, which is why you are talking about DR etc. I'd be surprised to find out you have used these powers before and cannot see any difference.

There is the issue.

theravenforce · November 2013

TT, Lordgar, radioscience if you can, could you shed some light on what is going on here? It would be much appreciated!

cyrone · November 2013

I've seen these and more.

Fear - across all powers is now 9.1% damage debuff. Down from 10%

Disorients - across all powers is now 9.1% damage debuff. Down from 10%

Ego Placate - now 9.1% damage debuff. Down from 10%

The only tooltip debuff that I've seen that hasn't changed is Stagger.

theravenforce · November 2013

Thanks for the additional information Cyrone!

deadman20 · November 2013

I'd like to add BCR to the list, since the Damage Debuff it gives has been lowered to 9.1% down from 10%. Although this would actually a buff to the power instead of a nerf like everything else that was mentioned.

avianos · November 2013

deadman20 wrote: »

I'd like to add BCR to the list, since the Damage Debuff it gives has been lowered to 9.1% down from 10%. Although this would actually a buff to the power instead of a nerf like everything else that was mentioned.

SWEET!

I wonder if this Applies on Energy Shield +Laser Knight ADV

But it's still harmful for the rest of Debuffs

blkjackwilliams · November 2013

So...They didn't just change dodge scaling, they changed ALL scaling?

Sounds legit.

kenpojujitsu3 · November 2013

Sounds like a simple error since all the 10's seem to be changing to 9.1s regardless of it results in a net nerf or a net buff. Time to submit a ticket...or several.

sakuratamaki · November 2013

Wait a moment.... It also says 9.1% cost increase instead of 10% on all of the forms and IDF

theravenforce · November 2013

sakuratamaki wrote: »

Wait a moment.... It also says 9.1% cost increase instead of 10% on all of the forms and IDF

Well then. This is awkward..

Oh well, at least this proves it isn't due to DR's after all, like I said at the outset

tau41 · November 2013

I'm not sure it's a bug, but I'm also not sure it's an intentional change.

I think this is related to something about how the game is calculating DR, just now its either applying that calculation prematurely, or it's SHOWING the end result.

In any event, in terms of practical results, I rarely notice anything smaller than a 30% swing in this game due to how much noise is in the range of attacks. A 1% change is pretty much statistical noise to any ability.

theravenforce · November 2013

tau41 wrote: »

I'm not sure it's a bug, but I'm also not sure it's an intentional change.

I think this is related to something about how the game is calculating DR, just now its either applying that calculation prematurely, or it's SHOWING the end result.

In any event, in terms of practical results, I rarely notice anything smaller than a 30% swing in this game due to how much noise is in the range of attacks. A 1% change is pretty much statistical noise to any ability.

Not in the case of Shadow of Doubt, the debuff it grants to damage strength is supposed to be outside of DR, which is why the value of 6% is so small because it is meant to be very potent. Such a change would either mean:

- It has been changed internally for no reason.

- It has been shoved inside DR and is now totally useless because the value is impossibly small.

Either way, I'd love an explanation as to why this has happened.

theravenforce · November 2013

Devs are aware so yay!

They are Investigating

blademaster5121 · November 2013

You should add that Smoke Grenade has been severely nerfed.

Rank 1 is now 83%, it used to be 500%

theravenforce · November 2013

blademaster5121 wrote: »

You should add that Smoke Grenade has been severely nerfed.

Rank 1 is now 83%, it used to be 500%

Thank you, I will update the OP accordingly!

blademaster5121 · November 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

Thank you, I will update the OP accordingly!

I don't know the new ranks, but I recall it originally as 500/800/1300, my numbers could be a little off, but they were definitely that high.

aiqa · November 2013

blademaster5121 wrote: »

I don't know the new ranks, but I recall it originally as 500/800/1300, my numbers could be a little off, but they were definitely that high.

Pretty close

http://www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Smoke_Grenade

theravenforce · November 2013

Just as extra proof of what the values for Shadow of Doubt should be:

HERE

Based on the information I provided for Wiki updating:

HERE

theravenforce · December 2013

Bump!

Wondering if there has been any progression on this front.

Currently unable to be in game due to circumstances out of my control, so I haven't been able to check.

chalupaoffury · December 2013

Think we can get ao'q's psychotic regen looked at again, as well? Blocking all of his life drains, using toxic to debuff his heals, he was still outhealing the entire team *while charging up his non-heal attacks*. isht is broke again.

theravenforce · December 2013

Thread Bump.

Apparently critical severity has changed slightly/is no longer correct...can anyone confirm this?

theravenforce · December 2013

Thread Bump!

heilkitty · December 2013

Bumping as well.
If the changes to severity are working the way that was described in another thread (http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=253961. Sorry, don't know how to post it in a more elegant way), then it's a pretty significant change I found no mention of: the dodge/crit preview blog only mentions changes to critical chance, and the release notes for the 11/14 patch don't mention criticals at all.

theravenforce · December 2013

It seems that a large portion of these changes were in fact intended, I'm going to assume this is the case, since we haven't had any official reply. (That and I spoke to someone)

I do know however that Personal Force Field and Shadow of Doubt are un intended and are therefore bugs.

Hoping for a fix soon.

monsterdaddy · December 2013

I'm going to assume the devs changed a lot of mechanics/tooltip to cryptic math.

Here's why:

Smoke Grenade used to be 500% perception debuff, now it's 83%. Well, I believe nothing but the tooltip has changed. Because 1-1/(1+500%) = 83.3% rounded to 83%.

Disorient damage debuff used to be 10%. Now 1-1/(1+10%) = 9.1%. So say you stack Fear, Disorient, Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes for a total of 45% damage debuff. In game, that actually translates to 1-1/(1+45%) = 31% actual damage debuff. I don't know if this was a real nerf or just a tooltip change.

I do know damage resistance debuffs have changed. Scarab had a total of 59% in damage resist debuffs and vs. Gravitars presumed 25% damage resist. So 59% - 25% = 34% so actual increase to damage was 1-1/(1+34%) = 25.4% which is much less damage than he used to do. Try it with an Elemental toon who can get 10 stacks of Firesnake.

Can anyone else look into this issue please.

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