Advice for an "Ice+Fire" dps

heilkitty · November 2013

Hello there! I was planning a dps build using several powers from ice, fire and wind. I only have one FF slot, so I'd love to hear some advice since I've spent enough Gs on retcons already :P
Here's the core of the build, followed by my doubts.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1:
Level 6:
Level 9:
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Level 21:

Powers:
Level 1: Wind Lash
Level 1: Hurricane (Rank 2, Perfect Storm)
Level 6: Ice Blast (Rank 2, Hard Frost)
Level 8: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 14: Concentration
Level 17: Rimefire Burst (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Fire Snake
Level 23: Empathic Healing
Level 26: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 29: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 32: Stormbringer (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3, Versatility)
Level 35: Jet Boots

Specializations:
Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
Intelligence: Tactician (2/2)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (2/3)
Guardian: Locus (2/2)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (1/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Mastery: Intelligence Mastery (1/1)

The basic idea is the same as a Regen build I previously had in the same character slot. I plan on using Hurricane as a main AoE and Ice Blast w/ adv. for villains and bosses and so on, with Rimefire helping with the chill from range (and hitting like truck) and Fire Snake thrown in for the debuff. I'll pick Stormbringer because the damage from Hurricane is more important to me than the spikes from Rimefire, but the power is at the bottom of the list because I like to respec into a defensive passive from time to time :P
I figured primary INT would be useful since I use concentration and MSA and have several cooldowns on the build. Also with the new patch Offense should be more useful, so I was planning to stack some from the INT tree and the best defense+defense mods. I haven't had a chance to test it myself though. The INT tree also looks pretty good to me overall, although I'd like to hear an opinion on DEX vs. INT primary from a DPS.
The tow empty slots are for some more utility powers I still have to figure out. Force Shield w/ adv is useful if a bit out of theme, especially now that I can't stack dodge like crazy (:P), and maybe a second active defense would help as well since the shared cooldown is going to be very short with the CD mods. I was also thinking of an aggro dump- either smoke bomb or smoke grenade; which would be better for a ranged toon with short CDs?. And maybe things like bionic shielding or the healing drones. Or Nanobot Swarm, to play with Rimefire Burst's synergy with itself. There's lots of cool stuff I could pick for the last two slots and I'm open to suggestions!
I would love to hear some advice as well as an opinion on the build in general.
Rock&roll!

kenpojujitsu3 · November 2013

If you are going for damage INT is not the primary you want. You'll want Ego or Dex in a build like this. You don't need to make INT primary to get better cost reduction and cooldown, you can get that elsewhere such as through gear in the late game and/or through the Ego spec (regarding cost reduction).

Going primary INT you'll lose a fair bit of crit chance and crit severity that won't be entirely made up by focusing on +Offense so you're leaving a sizeable chunk of damage behind. Incidentally you'll be able to get +Offense on top of crit chance and severity if you go with the other trees as primary and use INT as a secondary that you can choose to gear for as much as you feel you need on top of the cost reduction and cooldown reduction gear.

heilkitty · November 2013

Thank you for the input! EGO was the stat I was originally planning to use as a primary: EGO/INT/CON was the basic idea. But I'm afraid the crit chance from mods alone would be much lower after the nerf and I don't want to ditch CON for DEX- Hurricane tends to draw aggro and I like not dying.
INT is the stat that has the most synergies with the build and using it as a primary would make my toon easier to stat, especially since I don't plan on using high-level mods or fancy gear. And while I definitely don't need a ton of energy to run this build, I still don't feel like keeping it too low since Concentration scales with it. So I figured that with Tactician boosting the now-hopefully-useful offense stat, Expertise raising the crit chance from DEX, and Detect Vulnerability, the INT tree wouldn't lose by a margin too wide when compared to DEX.
I'll definitely try out different trees since I'm respeccing from lv. 35, but I'll have to use nemesis gear which is definitely not ideal. Cryptic math and not being able to access the PTS make it very complicated for me to test things in a reliable way. This makes your suggestions even more valuable to me, so thanks again!

superalfgorn · November 2013

Keep in mind that if you ask what's BEST for DPS then EGO is better than INT. However, for a build less focused on extreme DPS and striving more for balance, I think INT is a good choice given that it synergizes with MSA and Concentration.

For an aggro Dump I like Evasive Manouvers with advantage on a ranged hero. The boost to dodge on top of it is still interesting despite the nerfs.

To play with Rimefire Burts a little bit more, I would add Flashfire to immediately apply Clinging Flames.

Finally, since you have already both Conviction and Resurgence on top of CON as a SSS I would definitely skip further healing (which would be low anyway due to the Ranged Damage Role + lack of PRE). At most add Masterful Dodge. You might just add Nanobot Swarm+Adv for an additional small source of healing.

kenpojujitsu3 · November 2013

heilkitty wrote: »

Thank you for the input! EGO was the stat I was originally planning to use as a primary: EGO/INT/CON was the basic idea. But I'm afraid the crit chance from mods alone would be much lower after the nerf and I don't want to ditch CON for DEX- Hurricane tends to draw aggro and I like not dying.
INT is the stat that has the most synergies with the build and using it as a primary would make my toon easier to stat, especially since I don't plan on using high-level mods or fancy gear. And while I definitely don't need a ton of energy to run this build, I still don't feel like keeping it too low since Concentration scales with it. So I figured that with Tactician boosting the now-hopefully-useful offense stat, Expertise raising the crit chance from DEX, and Detect Vulnerability, the INT tree wouldn't lose by a margin too wide when compared to DEX.
I'll definitely try out different trees since I'm respeccing from lv. 35, but I'll have to use nemesis gear which is definitely not ideal. Cryptic math and not being able to access the PTS make it very complicated for me to test things in a reliable way. This makes your suggestions even more valuable to me, so thanks again!

Something to consider is that you can hit in the high 20's for crit chance from gear alone and EGO has spec that adds flat numbers to your crit chance. Dex for crits you'll find will not be necessary. However, going this route means you're putting gear points into +Crit chance and not much into +offense.

Using Dex on the other hand will let you put on plenty of +offense gear in addition to having a nice crit rate.

There is nothing in the INT spec that looks like it would be overly helpful to that build to warrant making it a primary super stat. Keep in mind, you can adjust your stats any way you want even having your secondary stats higher than your primary. The total amount of your superstats is what tends to matter. The primary reason for making a stat primary is the specs, not the numbers. Some people pick a primary stat and invest next to nothing in it choosing to instead super boost one or both of their secondary stats. They just wanted the primary stats specs.

From the new curve on Dex's criticals, look to see if expertise spec is even helpful to your crit chance.

And the one thing that is being overlooked is critical severity. INT spec is simply nowhere close when it comes to severity (because it grants none) and Severity along with Offense make up the "multiplicative" damage buffs.

heilkitty · November 2013

I'm using INT to level as the extra energy really helps grinding those last few levels, and I've observed that Detect Vulnerability seems quite powerful. I didn't keep track of the exact figures, but my powers seem to deal about 15% more damage (maybe more) on test dummies compared to the same attack before buying the spec. Ignoring such a large portion of a target's defense seems like a significant advantage, even moreso for my toon: after all I built my toon for high single target damage output, and in team situations I usually go for the ranked enemies who have stronger defenses than henchmen. I don't know if the spec is enough to balance the loss in severity on its own, but it's definitely strong enough to be taken into account. Although to be fair, I have no idea how it compares to Expose Weakness from the DEX tree.

kenpojujitsu3 wrote: »

And the one thing that is being overlooked is critical severity

I know. The gap between 75% and 110+% critical severity is huge. I'll stick with INT until 40, then play around with my stats and gear and figure out what works best- if the gap in DPS is too wide I may switch to primary DEX in the end.

superalfgorn wrote: »

Since you have already both Conviction and Resurgence on top of CON as a SSS I would definitely skip further healing (which would be low anyway due to the Ranged Damage Role + lack of PRE). At most add Masterful Dodge. You might just add Nanobot Swarm+Adv for an additional small source of healing.

You are right, Empathic Healing does give a pretty crappy heal with this setup. But still, I just don't feel comfortable relying on Conviction alone, or on other cooldown based powers like BS. IDK, I'll have to try some more options.

superalfgorn wrote: »

For an aggro Dump I like Evasive Manouvers with advantage on a ranged hero. The boost to dodge on top of it is still interesting despite the nerfs.

The thing is, I'm planning to gear for DEF, so my avoidance is going to be stuck at base value (I don't remember the exact figure but it should be pretty low IRC). In the end I'd rather have an emergency button that just gets the aggro off of me 100% of the time.

superalfgorn wrote: »

I would add Flashfire to immediately apply Clinging Flames.

I tried it and the mechanic felt a little clunky. But I also found out that Nanobot Swarm's cooldown reduction is far lower than advertised (maybe it scales with my SS and level?), so much that it was impossible to fire RB again before the flames expired. I might give Flashfire another chance in the end.

On a side note, I was wondering about EGO. How does the tree compare to DEX after the crit nerf? I used to love it, but now that the crit chance from gear has been lowered, I'm afraid it may lose in damage unless it's supported by DEX secondary- and my toon is squishy enough as it is. Also, I have no idea how the bonus ranged damage from EGO is taken into account by the damage forumlas. Should I gear for the soft cap (70 IIRC) or just leave it alone?

superalfgorn · November 2013

AFAIK Ego bonus damageis addictive, and that means that you might see diminishing returns if you sum the damage from super stats, form, EGO and passive.

As Kenpo said the real boon of a SS is the spec tree and mastery. So the increased Severity from EGO and DEX are the selling points. The additional ranged damage is just icing

And yeah Nanobot Swarm is a bit underwhelming. I'm not sure how it works however, if it has some sort of diminishing returns... Revitalize is the go-to spec from INT for cooldown reduction, even after the nerf, and of course you can combine it with NSwarm.

joybuzzerx · November 2013

If you want to use Rimefire Burst a little more, why not try REC/INT/EGO?

My PFF uses Ice Blast and Fire Ball (aoe) and then releases RimeFire when it's up (pretty sure I got the names right on the two attacks...both are tap/charge attacks).

Why REC/INT/EGO? REC gives an ability that enhances Cooldown which is based on Secondary Stat, then I use INT Mods which also enhances Cooldown to fuel REC's Spec!

helbjorn · November 2013

Your initial instincts were correct - EGO/CON/INT is probably the most well-rounded choice for a ranged DPS build like this.

heilkitty · November 2013

Checked my Unleashed today, she's at 35% crit chance after the nerfs. Any idea what crit chance I would get out of EGO tree+r5 gems+heroic gloves? (I know, that's lots of questions :P)

jasinblaze · November 2013

why stormbringer?
it only buffs the cold damage not the fire damage
ice form, fire form or pestilence would work better

Unknown · November 2013

This content has been removed.

jasinblaze · November 2013

you are correct, havent been on regularly in awhile

heilkitty · December 2013

After finding out that some of the utility powers I was going for weren't that useful, I tried Circle of Arcane Power and Avalanche. Kaboom. I like using both my AoEs according to the situation- scattered enemies, proc MSA and hurricane away; mobs on one side, circle and Avalanche. It may not be ideal from a min/max point of view since two AoEs are redundant, but I love the playstyle and will probably stick with said powers (which pretty much rules Evasive Maneuvers out).

I hit 40 last night and played around with my stats some more. Observations are tentative since I'm still using nemesis gear and Cryptic is cryptic, but here's what I've found.
One: Defense-wise, EGO is not as beneficial as I thought, at least not if I gear for defense.
Two: If both Expose Weakness and deadly aim are maxed, DEX gives a higher damage output that INT, albeit by a slight margin- with Nem gear the difference was somewhere around 6%. This is, of course, assuming DEX is still used as a secondary with the INT setup.

I pretty much ruled EGO out, but INT vs. DEX is still an open match. INT is the way to go with Nemesis gear, but the stats distribution reflects the setup I would use with INT primary, not the one I'd use with DEX. As Kenpo said, I could pick DEX as a primary and keep it relatively low to invest in INT, which would give a very high crit severity without losing too much in terms of INT synergies (costs, CDs, MSA etc.).
I guessI'll have to get my heroic gear, slot it (possibly using some r4 mods so I don't throw away valuable r5 stuff in the process) and test some more. Yay.

jasinblaze wrote: »

why stormbringer?

Because it buffs all the damage components in Hurricane + adv. (ice+crushing+elec.), which is more important to me than the numbers from Rimefire (which hits hard anyway) and Firesnake (which I picked for the debuff only).

heilkitty · January 2014

After a month of little playtime, I got back to my toon and I'm still wondering which way to go. I've actually been considering EGO/INT/DEX.
Just to be clear, EGO primary with DEX secondary IS the best possible damage for this build, right?
Also, is there some sort of damage calculator around?

Advice for an "Ice+Fire" dps

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