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wrathsoul1
Posts: 674 Arc User
Not in the sense hero or villain, but how you, as a hero, would deal with a threat.
What you do in situations would be divided into two categories: the ''Ideal'' and the ''Final'' type of actions.
Let's take for example Gravitar. You know she's a spoiled womanchild who uses her gravity powers for mayhem and world domination. You just defeated her and now: what to do? You let the proper authorities take her in, knowing that she could just reverse-gravity her way out of jail (Ideal) or simply kill her on the spot, knowing you'd just implemented fear in the world's heart (Final)?
Here's how the whole morality bar would work:
-If you do a lot of ''Ideal'' actions, you're a Paragon;
-If you balance your acts, you're a Scale;
-If you do a lot of ''Final'' actions, you're a Vigilante.
Any thoughts?
What you do in situations would be divided into two categories: the ''Ideal'' and the ''Final'' type of actions.
Let's take for example Gravitar. You know she's a spoiled womanchild who uses her gravity powers for mayhem and world domination. You just defeated her and now: what to do? You let the proper authorities take her in, knowing that she could just reverse-gravity her way out of jail (Ideal) or simply kill her on the spot, knowing you'd just implemented fear in the world's heart (Final)?
Here's how the whole morality bar would work:
-If you do a lot of ''Ideal'' actions, you're a Paragon;
-If you balance your acts, you're a Scale;
-If you do a lot of ''Final'' actions, you're a Vigilante.
Any thoughts?
Personal ideas thread: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=276551
Post edited by wrathsoul1 on
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Considering it took experimental tech to contain her and it was struggling I don't think they'd waste any time breaking out power dampening technology on her ASAP.
For me personally, heroes try their very best/never kill, that's sort of where the line is really.
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Heads for spare and Tails for kill.
This is serious matter, it's not my duty to decide on anything that serious, so I surrender my choices to the Random Number God.
(And yes, I'm one of the most loyal followers of the almighty Random Number God.)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...the ultimate Contrast Moe (or not).
Scale? Wouldn't the middle ground be, Neutral?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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No wonder why I'm a bigger fan of people like the Punisher, Red Hood and teams like X-Force than the likes of Superman, Captain America and what not.
And now, you ask me why Bond villains fail at seeing the simple solution. Did the US in this universe forgot to give people the chair or what? Hot Sleep can be slipped out of, Menton is living proof of that. Superheroes is pretty much what happens if you give the signature stupidity of your typical James Bond villain and apply it to some random guy.
If they didn't, there would have only been 1 episode of James Bond. And most villains in JB aren't from US.
Wouldn't that be just a villain?
....
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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Murdering her while she lies on the ground unconscious is an act of villainy that merits punishment.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Nope: someone who applies honor before reason.
Handle: @Kurobasa
Having superpowers doesn't place your character above the law. During rampages you are working with MCPD and UNTIL.
Once Gravitar is unconscious, you can only approach and capture her. Killing her in this moment is a crime and authorities will know it.
You will be marked a criminal. Someone who had used excessive force. A villain.
Would you have chance killing her during fight, everything would be fine and dandy. But not when she's already defeated and UNTIL+MCPD is watching.
Besides, you can't kill a recurring major villain. They have plot immortality. You can try, but they will be back, always. :biggrin:
Also, killing downed and defenseless combatant is always an act of cowardice and murder.
There is nothing naive in having any semblance of honor. Not even my villain would strike a downed foe, and he's a pretty morbid guy.
Meh, I just tend to think that Heroes try their very best not to kill, even Batman, I think would rather not kill and would rather incapacitate etc.
As for Menton, something actually happened to break him out, something went wrong, he didn't physically or mentally free himself, he doesn't even know how he got out, but he doesn't care.
Killing a villain whilst trying to stop them as Ashen has rightly stated would be an unfortunate but socially acceptable outcome, in the name of "greater good" if you will.
My point was, in that cut scene she is unconscious, totally out of it. To the point she has a medic team assessing the damage done to her.
Shooting her in the head/shattering her mind with psychic powers etc would = Villain.
Villain = Not necessarily socially acceptable among heroes.
I could see the potential use of such a mechanic IF, the game had a more realistic slant towards Vigilante style missions, rather than the classic super hero missions you go on.
Currently there isn't any content which is directly affected by your choice, bar Early Bird Gets the Worm mission (which has a fantastic, "You Decide" part to it) and I think a few others, like Nemesis missions.
All in all, my personal feeling is that, unless that is the only thing you can do to stop them, you are either way in over your head or you didn't properly estimate the threat.
I know in comic villains have been killed by heroes, but I am thinking of just in CO's instance.
I cannot really think of an instance where it is necessary to kill the SV. If they are down for the count, my usual line of thinking is that some form of PRIMUS, UNTIL, Steelhead, MCPD, VBPD etc comes along and cleans up.
But that's just me.
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Its all subjective.
If a villain is taken in and repeatedly escapes or is acquitted, continues to commit murders and cause destruction, does not commit to rehabilitation, AND the government still doesn't do anything to sentence them to death DESPITE THE FACT that they cannot be rehabilitated or contained, then its someone's duty to finish it outside the law.
Like Dr. Destroyer (both Zerstoiten and the Shadow impostor) and Gravitar.
She is currently incarcerated in an artificial pocket dimension where superheroes can go to practice their combat skills and powers against one of the more potent paranormal combatants in the world.
The best part is that she doesn't even realize that her rampage is "fake."
As to Dr Destroyer....
Well, since he cannot be killed, nor truly defeated (thwarted at best) its kind of a moot point.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Vigilante means that you act outside the law. You carry out your own brand of justice without relying on what is perceived as the legally right way to approach things. It doesn't necessarily involve killing. Batman is considered a vigilante and yet he doesn't kill.
Most of the time, the game has made it so that the result of enemies' defeat is left ambiguous, and rightfully so. The subject of death isn't really addressed in this game and it should be left to the individual player's interpretation. A morality scale mechanic works against that.
Just remember: THAT kind of people exists. And if you got killed after getting reincarnated as a kid, you know you're just plain bad.
like
"Dark champions" ~ Hudson city / what have you?
Or is this a discussion on morality in superheroes in general?
I have plenty to say on either subject I'm just confused. ~ Thanks if you can help clarify!
Well, it's mostly a suggestion for some kind of morality system that operates on how you deal with a situation. Ranging from petty stuff (Give Foxbat a wedgie or flatout castrate him?) to life-threatening moments (kill Gravitar or let UNTIL get her jailed despite knowing she'll escape and resume her rampage).
And of course no more quests from UNTIL/Primus/Steelhead for such characters (including alerts and rampages). :biggrin:
Wanna play the Punisher? Do it like the Punisher. As an outcast.
You just have a one more bar to cloggin up the UI.
Since we know they wont be going thru every single mission to make an 'alternative end' to it.
Or make the meter have some sort of "Faction Influence".
And that's good, since it would most likely brake the whole friggin game.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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So far, the ''biggest'' choice that can impact everything is...
...oh, what am I saying, there's none.
I'm playing a superhero game called "Champions" ~ Seems to me that I'm gonna have a storyline derived from the Superman/Captain America/Boyscout morality archetype.
I would argue that the Punisher or Jason Todd would never qualify as anyone's 'Champion"
If I wanted to play a dark brooding vigilante type I'd either find a different game, or use my 'Roleplay Fu' to smudge the storyline a bit. I honestly do not think any 'morality' type choices would work with this game.
Having Factions, and a form of reputation as an end-game choice? That might work, but leave the dark-vigilante style out of the main game please.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Also, the concept of a so-called "anti-hero" is ridiculous. Breaking the law is breaking the law, which makes "anti-heroes" criminals themselves. Real heroes are a cut above, and that's kinda the idea with a superhero game. Being a larger than life, full-fledged hero. A champion for justice.
*facepalm*
When you're pushed, killing is as easy as breathing. As said in the fourth Rambo movie. Want some idealism? Go watch some propaganda. Besides, there are cases where violence really is the answer.
Think. A guy who murders people got his trial. For some reason, he got acquitted. Why? Is it because a policeman got evidence without a mandate? A relative of the killer corrupted or blackmailed the jury? Key witnesses ended up ''missing''? Regardless, he got away. And yet, someone who did some petty crime got what, 25 years? Tsk tsk.
The term ''Justice'' really is misused. You take a gun. You shoot someone and frame a war veteran for the crime. In practice, you sent someone to prison for some crap you commited. Is that ''Justice''? No. That's ''Scapegoating''.
Justice is simply a gladiatorial show with the bloody violence replaced by bureaucrats who can sue you because they want monopoly over, say, seed saving tech or can defend you for the right to liberalized seed rescue. Both sides are willing to end this quick, ranging from a agreement or hiring third-parties for underhanded strategies. Stalling the jury? Kidnapping? Assassination? Name it, chances are, it's in their repertoire.
And of course, there's the ''heroes'' themselves. If you spent your life fighting crime in real life, how would your body react? Being old? Having arthritis? Feeling slow? Even more prone to slip up, thus making you less dangerous to the underworld's eyes? And then there's the mind. Being superpowered will isolate you. It will disallow you from being current at school, you'll get a hard time keeping a job and with the stress of having to care about your relatives, they become targets for those who wants to take revenge on you. Revealing your secret identity to those you love? Have fun being painted out as a deciever by them. Besides, just because you got superpowers doesn't mean you know how to fight crime. Just because you do speeches doesn't mean the villain of the week will not attack you during said speech.
Of course, I would have included more, but I won't, since you desire to be all ''honor before reason''.
Rules and laws were introduced into societies for a reason. It works.
The alternative is the survival of the fittest and law of the jungle.
Wanna realy pragmatic environment? Go to Somalia or Afghanistan and tell how you'd like it.
Megatron would be pleased. After all, this is how Decepticons started. To impose payback on corrupted planetary government, because legal system wasn't working flawlessly.
Real hero is anyone who's saving innocent for altruist reason. Doesn't need to be all sunshines and rainbow.
Also, "criminal" is a legal division, not a moral one.
Technically any unregistered hero can be called a criminal when he's attacking people and destroying private property. Even if s/he's not killing people.
The Punisher can be both a hero for people saved by him, and a criminal for law enforcement agencies, it isn't mutually exclusive.
But I'd like, from any morality system, to reflect criminal status for a superhero breaking law by killing people when use of lethal force is not allowed. After all, that's the point with characters like the Punisher. They're outlaws and that's the price paid for their methods.
Otherwise, what's the point in playing anti-hero?
Everyone who's asking for realism for this one should also ask for realistic response for their characters actions.
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At one point, one of the villains has a hero dead to rights, and is about to kill him, when he's stopped by the lead villain.
"That's the worst thing you could do! It won't work, and then they'll just add attempted murder to the charges! Or worse, it will work, and then he'll just come back with a new name, a new costume, new powers, and looking for revenge!"
The same applies to villains, I would imagine, especially based on Laserfire's experience in a theater with the undead creature that used to be the Shrew...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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