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Is Heavy Weapons pvp viable?
breakneck17
Posts: 18 Arc User
So I was having trouble finding a build as I'm trying to cope with the crit/dodge changes as my previous build relied solely on that which I'm now trying to steer away from, and weirdly enough the idea of swinging a very large weapon and whacking people with it sounds pretty fun. So my question is can heavy weapons work? And if so, how would I go about building one? Any suggestions are welcomed. Thanks.
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You can build around heavy weapons and pvp - just don't be surprised at the disadvantages you'd come across.
If it was actually hard hitting it would have been a main choice amongst the attacks. With what happened to toggles its performance has been reduced below Might even with the great combos that Eruption and Brute Strike used to give.
Annihilation isn't in a great spot anymore as the fall damage has been dramatically reduced and tossing your target around is basicly giving him the respite he needed to heal up, the problem being 'defeat your target under 30 minutes'.
In all, the control moves are great, the damage... I don't think you should even count on it right now.
I've been searching the 'strange' builds that seem sort of random so to find a new combo or two or so attacks. The BIG problem I found with heavy weapons is it doesn't hit nearly enough damage. One of my favourite attacks in the game is skullcrusher but it's probably one of the worst heavy weapon attacks. <.< I would probably say heavy weapons is the slowest and there for lowest hitting power trees for a melee.
I don't know how many of you remember when Eve came back for a bit, they played melee with the eruption brute strike combo. I wonder if this combo will still work, only problem is I don't like loosing my int to get enough str so that I have a reliable knock. Annihilate is also one of the heavy weapon powers which could be viable for a build although it hits less than haymaker it has a much faster charge time.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Concerning the crit/dodge changes, crit chance isn't really a big problem in PvP since 90% of the time you will be relying on Ego Surge for a kill. As long as you're built for this, it shouldn't affect you too much. For dodging, if you pick Way of the Warrior or Night Warrior as your passive and keep your dodge gear, you will not be affected too badly. Heck, even Quarry's dodge after the nerf won't be useless. It just won't be completely broken with the right gear like it currently is.
As for the Heavy Weapons build, I'll talk to a few people in-game about one. It depends on "how viable" you'd like to be (duels, team duels, bash, all of the hero games?), but I'm sure those of us that are willing to try will be able to make a decent HW build.
I'd be very tempted to make a WotW Heavy Weapons/UR build since I find HW lacks in the damage department by itself. Though one can also go in the route of stunlocking or tankiness to just tag in Bash. There are options, so keep that in mind.
When you get on we could attempt a stunlock HW build. I have one of my toons in the PH although without and str cores we're going to have to stay away from the knock up route, lets just see how viable skull crusher is. ;D
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Eve.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Who use to complain as they could only farm squishys and couldn't do much against cheese. Although saying that they still did a good job with a theme build.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
It's exactly what is being wrong, the measures taken to get this set to be playable against the rest are nearly desperate, it's hard, AT hard, and relies on tagging.
These were very old times. The removal of aggressor aswell as the massive boost to the defense stacking stratagem left most of power frameworks in the corner.
High CC/hold resistance on average for ranged characters because of EGO, requiring repeated applications and immunity. Freedom and ascension almost permanent, evasive maneuvers exploits to circumvent cooldown, certain ranged powers being superior to melee powers in melee range. You will experience nothing but frustration as ranged runs circles around you, no matter how fine-tuned your movements and power build is.
The best you can hope for is a stalemate or an AT to wander in, but the ranged characters will usually reach the AT to farm them much faster than you will.
The dodge nerf might help just a little. Wait and see.
All I'll say is [Manipulator] there is a reason I use it on every build you know.
I personally think the dodge change will be very beneficial towards melee. WotW is hardly effected and so us WotW users will have only just less dodge than we currently have while still having a high avoidance. Just try not to attack people while MD is up, just run 100ft away from them and use props to cut off their line of site. Then as soon as MD is off jump out at them (manipulator helps for this with it's long lasting buff) as long as you rotate CC and knocks correctly you should be able to have nice damage chain.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
If you plan on going 10-0 every single time while using a melee build in Bash, then no, do not expect melee to meet your expectations. But the small number of people who actually take melee builds into Bash and the rest of the Hero Games can actually perform well (even though it is only ~2 of us who do this on a serious level).
The only people who currently give me trouble are those that take their ranged builds to such extreme levels that they give everyone else trouble as well, be it melee or ranged builds that they are fighting.
We've been bleeding people since On-Alert went live. Not being honest about the current state isn't going to make the experience less painful for newer folk.
I wouldn't say your melee performs well, but I wouldn't say it performs horribly either. With everyone's survival taking a hit, that still gives keeps the advantage in range's corner.
I remember when melee was the norm for the same reason ranged dominates now - melee had the clear advantage doing more damage.
You can still technically win a bash even as a heavy weapons user - but you're relying far more on your ADs and passive defenses to make you too much effort to kill while needing to tag those who go down.
I believe I am being honest about the current state in PvP. I am saying that melee is still viable, but it is also very hard to make it work.
The little survivability I have on my build is going nowhere. The hit WotW will take is minimal compared to both Quarry and all of the other passives that do not give dodge chance.
The norm always shifts to whatever works best. Most people just work that way, but some of us still want to PvP with what we like using.
Woah, woah, woah.
One, range DOESN'T do more damage. Instead what you should have said is that it is impossible to always be hitting with melee while ranged you can keep up the attacks.
People being less dodgy benefits melee more than it does ranged. The main reason is NW and WotW are the two least affected passives by the dodge nerf which makes melee more viable now.
I don't like to consider tagging a 'win.' This is actually one of the big reasons that ranged is much easier to win on, it is really hard to tag with melee, especially if you are squishy.
So anyway, lettuce all take everything we can use to win into BASH. Lets bring the tele's and use the eruptions. Lets use cry baby grenades too, yes.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
It's not viable if you have to go severely out of your way just to be competitive. The biggest issue is that the standard pvp framework takes over half of your power choices to begin with, leaving very little room for variation.
Sister Smash was well known for her Heavy Weapons setup, but the nerfing eventually kept her from being effective. She was still hard to kill, but no longer was a threat since her damage output couldn't keep up with the MD, Ascension and healing. The changes to CC powers and over-nerfing to fall damage turned her setup to nothing more than an annoyance versus the powerhouse it once was.
Range does more damage. All of melee's advantages were taken away.
Range got dedicated toggles. However, there were ranged enrage builds before, but we also didn't have the crit chance like we do now. Enrage builds revolved around str/con, leaving no room to stat dex for significant crit chance (if going enrage).
Range got ego scaling. While still a minor bonus, it further closed the gap.
Fall damage was excessively nerfed. While there are a number of ranged knocks, heavy fall damage made knocks a killer in their own right, allowing heavy weapons and might to be devastating.
The reason dodge benefits ranged over melee is because said ranged player can kill melee before they can close the gap. If you're nearly dead before you can close the gap, you either have to break off or end up getting killed in the pursuit.
I agree about the knocks, they are really unreliable as it is anyway. Geyser is still superior to any knock in the game. Saying this, knocks are in now way underpowered at all, it's just being able to knock someone in melee isn't that great as you could just be knocking them from 100ft away instantly.
This is a big reason I use the trees a lot. It allows me to close the gap of 50ft before I use ego sleep to start the combo. If you are a melee and you are finding that you need to be chasing after your opponent all the time while leaving yourself out in the open then you're either a tank or you're asking to get ganked in BASH or counter attacked in a duel.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Why do you think I use knocks until I can get in melee range, or Imp uses stealth and holds, or why we run out of the range of the person's main attack until we are ready to be in that range, or we break line of sight when things aren't our favor?
Yes, of course ranged builds can do all of this as well, but that's where each individual's use of their build comes in. Beating someone is simply outplaying them, and when I manage to beat ranged builds it feels all the better.
Imp was using the tree to break LoS.
I did it too just to spite him. Won it by mimicking the tactic.
Eve was still able to be deadly as a melee assassin, but spent far more time evading or waiting for an opportunity to strike than actually fighting.
Most melee relied on ranged holds and stuns to lock a target down to land their hits.
Winning as a melee is more rewarding, but because its an uphill battle, not a fair one.
No one said it was fair. If melee needs to rely on holds and stuns and spend more time running or evading than fighting then so be it - it is still viable, and that is what I am trying to say.
Some people have problems with that, and that's fine. But just because someone does not like a challenge does not mean they should give up on it and call it unviable. Sure it's not fair that ranged builds are at a clear advantage. It simply should not be that way, but it currently is. We can only do what we can with what we've got.
Annihilate is easily one of the hardest hitting powers in the game. It also has 50% bonus base damage vs targets that are knock immune. Works really well with Eruption - which helps maintain Enrage, does serious damage, knockup, and short CD for feeding MSA.
Brute Strike is a great stun and has Trauma which turns off heal over time effects and debuffs further heals. Alternating Brute Strike with Eruption or even Roomsweeper (for the bigger knockup on stun) works well.
Skewer also has good damage and is an aoe - it's the Heavy Weapons version of the Chainsaw basically. It has a 1 point advantage that raises tap damage by 15% base - almost an extra rank's worth.
HW in general is a slow activation, hard hitting set so it's best suited for tough builds. The synergies with Enrage and the fact that activation times are longer than usual means you likely want to stat for STR. This is to minimize knocks that can interrupt you, for you to knock other people, and buff Enrage.
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No it's not.
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For some, viable simply means usable in pvp.
For others like myself, viable means generally effective.
Let's take running ATs in unrestricted bash for example. On my cursed, I've even managed to win a few unrestricted bashes. However, I still accept that she's not viable for unrestricted use. She's far too much a liability and easily killed even in the best gear available.
Now, let's take my FF Charlize. She relies on FC as her main burst. Even though I recently added FC back, its hardly a viable option. I basically may get one fully charged FC off with ego surge if I'm lucky. The energy cost and charge time required basically require building around it, and ultimately not make it worthwhile. The two reasons I use it on Char is for thematic use (was a lot more effective with old imbue) and because i have way too much difficulty getting a decent SR off in general pvp.
Even though I see FC as a not being a viable choice, I still use it. Melee is in the same boat, it's a poor choice as far as general effectiveness goes but that doesn't mean it can't be used to some degree of success.
Most melee powers can hit pretty high.
My demolish + rising knee combo hits high with int primary and uranium core simply because I decrease defense so much while using single target attacks so warden doesn't affect it.
Purin plays with bleeds that devastate dodgey squishies such as myself and then comes in for a hit that can hit around or over 20k overall which is very close to my SR's damage other than he can them pull you back in to do it over again.
MC is currently using dragons uppercut to hit most on me, his UR and NPG combo is good but it's very predictable and isn't technically the 'melee' we are talking about. But in a duel against him his DU hits crazy amounts on me.
Of course you have all the NW's if you wanna count them.
Also you still have DW and DC combo's that are viable.
I see one person (I think it's alphas alt) using the new PA melee powers which is pretty cool. He hits pretty damn high damage on me with them.
My old one shot haymaker would be perfectly viable now with the dodge fix.
I was trying the melee knockup from rock, it's not only extremely cool looking and fun but it also doesn't do that bad damage wise.
And as vixy said, those powers from HW are viable options.
There are many options for melee, don't write it off. You just have to be clever with the build and playstyle instead of just putting 4 randomly selected slices of cheese in one sandwich.
Yeah you did win that duel secksegai I shouldn't have been so naive to run out into the open like that with your 2gm and FG on the ready.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Thank you for this short answer. I really mean it.
A major problem to all these debates is that it mostly resorts to one thing: Bursting, bursting, AND BURSTING. The effortless healing and CDR you can acquire in here makes all forms of chasing tedious, boring and nearly hopeless. Part of melee gameplay used to be about hurting bad mixed with control and chasing.
The chasing part changed because the healing process for players got boosted to oblivion. Before you'd take quite alot of time to heal yourself up when not using Ressurgence if you didn't spec at all into healing, even the 10s offered by Smoke Grenade could sometimes not be enough for you to recover all your hps in combat.
The CDR reduces the opportunities to attack by such a large amount that it became nearly hopeless to deal with when combined with the healing above.
Then dodge was the nail on the coffin. With it reduced it will only increase the probabilities for melee bursters to land the needed attacks to defeat an opponent outright during the few times he'll be vulnerable.
So yes, melee bursters are viable, but they're only one part of the general case. No melee stalkers, no melee fighters. It will bring melees like Rhino as everyone knows him right back, but not all the other melees.
PS: Thank you Imp for enumerating these 3 - 4 powers.
I believe I named more than 3 - 4 powers and these aren't even the only combo's that work.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The only reason my set up was like that? Bleeds fell off too quickly .-.
Yeah well, the attacks are ranged, meaning that you get to hit your target if you feel like it, mostly. You'll have a much easier time throwing shurikens until your hands bleed than spamming massacre efficiently.
And you will spam them until your hands bleed. And then the match will time out.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In Champions Online PvP, it's not what you know, it's who you know.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Behemoth
Level 6: Covert Ops Training
Level 9: Enduring
Level 12: Brilliant
Level 15: Physical Conditioning
Level 18: Healthy Mind
Level 21: Body and Mind
Powers:
Level 1: Bludgeon
Level 1: Unstoppable
Level 6: Brute Strike (Rank 2, Concussion)
Level 8: Skewer (Rank 2, Follow Through)
Level 11: Bionic Shielding (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 17: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 20: Masterful Dodge
Level 23: Resurgence
Level 26: Mighty Leap (Crippling Challenge, Nailed to the Ground)
Level 29: Inertial Dampening Field (Rank 2)
Level 32: Force Detonation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Miniaturization Drive (Rank 2)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation
Level 35: Superjump (Rank 2, Rank 3, Rebounding Resilience)
Specializations:
Strength: Swole (3/3)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
EDIT:
So basically, it has survivability and offense, with a simple combo: Lunge > Ego Surge/Force Detonation > Lunge (again for stun & if the FD KB'd your opponent) > Charge Skewer > Brute Strike > Charge Skewer, then for fun Force Det them again at the end.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: Superhuman
Level 6: Covert Ops Training
Level 9: Enduring
Level 12: Brilliant
Level 15: Physical Conditioning
Level 18: Healthy Mind
Level 21: Body and Mind
Powers:
Level 1: Righteous Fists
Level 1: Thunderbolt Lunge (Crippling Challenge, Nailed to the Ground)
Level 6: Way of the Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Iron Chain (Meteor Hammer, Accelerated Metabolism)
Level 11: Ego Sleep
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
Level 20: Masterful Dodge
Level 23: Unbreakable
Level 26: Ascension (Rank 2)
Level 29: Enrage
Level 32: Smoke Grenade (Escape Artist)
Level 35: Evasive Maneuvers (Sleight of Mind)
Level 38: Annihilate (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3, Versatility)
Specializations:
Strength: Swole (3/3)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)
How about something just like that? Use that very in theme chain <.< to put them to 3 stacks of knock resist. Then lunge in to root them and hit them with that epic Annihilate, if you don't one shot them (you probably wont, depends on gear and who you are against) then use ego sleep right after hitting them (very in theme, you are so boring and take so long to hit people that they fall asleep >.>) so you can follow up with a second knock resisted Annihilate. If needs be escape with smoke grenade. Basically with one heavy weapons power as the attack I would count this as a heavy weapons build, yes!
After managing to kill some people with my mighty kick theme build (rather squishy people though) I have come to the conclusion you can use most powers to kill people now if you sacrifice enough defence and know how to stack offense / resistance / crit / base damage / random extra buff stuff correctly while using the correct rotations.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
You can use any charge attack you fancy if you combine the same cocktail of moves and controls, with a different efficiency, Ego Sleep will go just about everywhere as example. One tedious challenge was to remain with the said generic attacks, but change the whole control and attack schematics.
Sure you could go melee knock, and even use Enrage instead of IDF, and somehow throw UR into the mix.
FD is more of a personal preference. It's a clickie, has a relatively short CD (but not short enough to stack knock resistance), It does pretty good spike damage if used with Ego Surge, and the ego boost that ES gives adds an extra oomph to the FD's KB range. Plus, clapping your hands and exploding someone away from you looks pretty damn cool. It's also good for controlling an opponent. knock them back, then lunge at them. They can't do anything while being knocked, nor can they do anything while lunge-stunned.
FD is admittedly counter-productive in most melee builds.