For soloable content the hardest mobs in general a simply Might Mobs, and most of them you find in Nemesis Missions at 40.
At least for me the most dangerous mobs are those like Mutated Mayor Biselle or Corrupted Amphibian in VB Crisis.
However they are mostly a danger if you need to go into melee .. if you can fly and use ranged powers its not that big problem.
The two things you quoted are essentially saying the same thing.
The first says she believes with that set-up she will do better than a character with a defensive passive, "with a potent mix of survivability and DPS output"
The second quote claims she can get an absolute equal or better ammount of both damage and mitigation on an offensive passive user over a defensive passive user. Changing the level of scrutiny from doing everything better or equal in every way to Better enough in one aspect and not as good in another, but still good.
I like you. You may not notice me around ingame, but I pay a lot of attention to the community. People like Nepht, Caliga, Thundrax, yourself, you're good people. You do good things to help new players, and help make it a community rather than a bunch of people all occupying the same digital space, report spaming Lucy.
I say what I say and argue against popular opinion, not because I'm a bastard that want's to troll you people (If I wanted to troll you I'd make about three different threads on the subject, not taking it seriously while at the same time mocking people who don't agree with me), but rather because it's just what I see of the gameplay-side. If I play your characters, I'll just see it with your characters.
I can't see a gap in damage when a support role character, who's 35% (base) lower damage than my offense role archer, rocks epidemic or avalanche or a big hitter they get access to because: Freeform and kills a group in basically the same time it takes me to.
It really is going to take something akin to God moving the moon to convince me that there's a real damage gap gained for taking a damage passive that demands such a mitigation gap. Both because of the breakdowns I've done and my own experience in-game.
I can't see a gap in damage when a support role character, who's 35% (base) lower damage than my offense role archer, rocks epidemic or avalanche or a big hitter they get access to because: Freeform and kills a group in basically the same time it takes me to.
And that is more or less the point. The offensive char does more dmg, you can look ath the tooltips and compare them. But that does not matter against normal mobs because they are so weak.
The same can be said for defense. If you rush in with your offensive char or your defensive char does not matter. You see different stats on you screen but in reality it just does not matter.
The only point were it matters might be big bosses, like gravitar. You will notice the lack of dmg in a prolonged fight because it takes longer. You might notice the lack of defense because you have to be more aware but the offensive character will be able to tank just the same.
There is no use in the game for the extreme defense of a tank since an offensive char can fill the same role and do more dmg.
In other words: the more dmg the faster the boss falls, there is no cap in usefulness.
BUT you only need enough defense to survive. You cannot do more than survive. If I get 500 dmg and can heal 600 I am fine. If I take 250 dmg and can heal 600 I am in theory the better tank but in reality I do not perform better in any way.
If character A can mitigate/heal 100,000 damage per second, and deals 100,000 damage per second
and character B can mitigate/heal 200,000 damage per seccond, and deals 50,000 damage per second
BUT no group of NPCs, nor any boss NPC, in the game even does more than 80,000 damage per second...
That means that Character A is outperforming Character B offensively and matching their ability defensively, even though technically Character B has more defense... because the majority of Character B's defense is overkill and isn't even coming into effect. The fact that Character B technically has more defense, is irrelevant.
In other words: the more dmg the faster the boss falls, there is no cap in usefulness.
BUT you only need enough defense to survive. You cannot do more than survive. If I get 500 dmg and can heal 600 I am fine. If I take 250 dmg and can heal 600 I am in theory the better tank but in reality I do not perform better in any way.
Thats the point.
The game isn't just team content though. And there's so much caveat in that example. The first character's 2 hits per heal to kill, the second three. Defense has to heal ever other attack it takes (Hit->Hit->Heal) to survive, whereas the offensive user has to heal every hit it takes (Hit->Heal) if it wants to stay standing.
Actions take time. It's an opportunity cost. You lose room to move and take other action when you start with a lower base mitigation. Assume they're Damage and tank roles. The tank player has twice as much time to respond with an attack as the offense user. Even if I assume offense has a much higher damage level (which I don't really believe), twice as much room to attack allows for 2x as many hits at 1 base damage meaning the defense user has an easier time, and can match the damage rate of an offense user with up to 2x as much base damage.
The act of surviving is gradient, and has many working parts. Go block against a bunch of level 35s using a level 40 regen with a shield that does damage as it's hit. You'll survive, you'll kill, but you won't tell me you could do no better.
If character A can mitigate/heal 100,000 damage per second, and deals 100,000 damage per second
and character B can mitigate/heal 200,000 damage per seccond, and deals 50,000 damage per second
BUT no group of NPCs, nor any boss NPC, in the game even does more than 80,000 damage per second...
That means that Character A is outperforming Character B offensively and matching their ability defensively, even though technically Character B has more defense... because the majority of Character B's defense is overkill and isn't even coming into effect. The fact that Character B technically has more defense, is irrelevant.
That's not how the game works though, so it's irrelevent. Look to my response to aetam for how things actually work, and how differences in mitigation can create gray areas that you ignore.
The game isn't just team content though. And there's so much caveat in that example. The first character's 2 hits per heal to kill, the second three. Defense has to heal ever other attack it takes (Hit->Hit->Heal) to survive, whereas the offensive user has to heal every hit it takes (Hit->Heal) if it wants to stay standing.
Actions take time. It's an opportunity cost. You lose room to move and take other action when you start with a lower base mitigation. Assume they're Damage and tank roles. The tank player has twice as much time to respond with an attack as the offense user. Even if I assume offense has a much higher damage level (which I don't really believe), twice as much room to attack allows for 2x as many hits at 1 base damage meaning the defense user has an easier time, and can match the damage rate of an offense user with up to 2x as much base damage.
The act of surviving is gradient, and has many working parts. Go block against a bunch of level 35s using a level 40 regen with a shield that does damage as it's hit. You'll survive, you'll kill, but you won't tell me you could do no better.
How it works depends on your build. If your build is meant to channel something -conviction - channel etc and use conviction with mca as energy creator you can not really skip your heal (of course on can now debate if such a build would be flawed). If you use BCR and the tank only needs it half of the time the opportunity cost is not that high due to the long duration. If your heal comes from devour essence you do dmg at the same time.
There might also be outside healing from auras without the cost of any action or healing from a healer who could only offer minimal dmg if he was not healing. There could also be healing through crits from con primary spec.
Also do not underestimate the bonus from a dmg role. And the bonus from an offensive passive. Despite possible opportunity costs my offensive chars outdmg my defensive ones while being able to tank the same bosses.
How it works depends on your build. If your build is meant to channel something -conviction - channel etc and use conviction with mca as energy creator you can not really skip your heal (of course on can now debate if such a build would be flawed). If you use BCR and the tank only needs it half of the time the opportunity cost is not that high due to the long duration. If your heal comes from devour essence you do dmg at the same time.
There might also be outside healing from auras without the cost of any action or healing from a healer who could only offer minimal dmg if he was not healing. There could also be healing through crits from con primary spec.
Also do not underestimate the bonus from a dmg role. And the bonus from an offensive passive. Despite possible opportunity costs my offensive chars outdmg my defensive ones while being able to tank the same bosses.
Damage role is 1.25x vs hybrid and tank with various shenanegins to the additive damage boosts. It has been demonstrated by build-fu greater than my own, as I would not have guessed it, that Defiance can match WoTW on damage thanks to DR sillyness. Generally speaking (Meaning ignoring wierd builders such as myself who take between 5-7 attacks and other strange build decisions) the difference in damage will be that 1.25x, and incredibly unlikely to ever exceed 1.58x.
As to the rest, can you start to see how it's not as cut and dry as surviving = matching the passive's performance? There is a ton of gray area that is being ignored.
Powers and teamates have advantages, you heal the whole time with DE against that big boss, I use Massacre and abuse the bonus damage because the boss can't be knocked, and do 4-5k taps. The system allows for this up and down depending on choices, but a similarly invested offense role character and defensive passive character, pushing the limits of the roles, will remain close in performance (regardless of which is ahead at the time) and each will have their own advantages and disadvantages to playstyle.
As to the rest, can you start to see how it's not as cut and dry as surviving = matching the passive's performance? There is a ton of gray area that is being ignored.
I see that but you are ignoring a part as well. You claim the difference in offense does not matter only the difference in defense does.
I am no master builder and I do certainly lack experience. Still I can tell you my offensive chars have a higher dmg output than my defensive ones while still being able to tank everything.
I do not discount the possibility that my defensive char are underperforming due to my errors BUT I can tell you that my offensive chars are to tanky to justify being offensive chars. And I might add the defensive is not even hurt that bad with the dodge rework.
There's a lot of what ifs, theorycrafting and sample numbers here but not a lot of putting the nose to the grindstone.
Suffice it to say, I'm more interested in real world performance as opposed to playing the numbers game. It's why I'm nearly never caught posting numbers despite doing a fair bit of number crunching myself because numbers never tell the whole story and are often used more to obfuscate matters rather than clarify them. Raw numbers don't factor in a number of intangibles such as player skill, reaction time, situational variances, playstyle, build variances in accordance with playstyle, etc.
That said, these things could change the discussion I feel:
A) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can complete and an offensive passive user can't complete at all.
An example of solo content an offensive passive user can complete faster than a defensive passive user.
C) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can't complete that an offensive passive user can.
D) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can complete faster than an offensive passive user.
Edit: The corresponding variants for support passives can be mixed in as well but K.I.S.S. is what I was going for.
a community rather than a bunch of people all occupying the same digital space, report spaming Lucy.
I prolly shouldn't poke this bear, but this just almost made me absolutely lose it laughing (while my prof was talking about a child murdering another child).
During the blood moon event I could easily solo the crypts with my quarry+2gm character but could not manage to do it with my LR+martial arts & might build.
During the blood moon event I could easily solo the crypts with my quarry+2gm character but could not manage to do it with my LR+martial arts & might build.
...why?
That could be a build problem instead of anything else. We need specifics, dammit!
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I prolly shouldn't poke this bear, but this just almost made me absolutely lose it laughing (while my prof was talking about a child murdering another child).
I probably shouldn't laugh at this, but damn that's terrible timing. I hope he didn't get too pissed.
I see that but you are ignoring a part as well. You claim the difference in offense does not matter only the difference in defense does.
I am no master builder and I do certainly lack experience. Still I can tell you my offensive chars have a higher dmg output than my defensive ones while still being able to tank everything.
I do not discount the possibility that my defensive char are underperforming due to my errors BUT I can tell you that my offensive chars are to tanky to justify being offensive chars. And I might add the defensive is not even hurt that bad with the dodge rework.
If you believe I'm saying that the difference in offense doesn't matter, then I must not be communicating effectively, and I'm sorry.
I am saying, that the difference in offense is worth what is lost in mitigation. I believe that the difference in each roughly pay for each other. The difference in both are incredibly important and, I believe, it is a reasonable trade off.
Also, not saying the world is going to end and everyone is going to die. I belive, have experienced, and have said that defensive passive users and some support passive users will continue on unabated. That's the problem. One type of passive will not have the same potential for growth as the others.
I give zero craps about team content and solo content, I'm purly interested in inter-power balance. If I take a defensive passive or an offensive passive, in a balanced system, I should expect a similar level of growth in each, varying in the details, as well as, a similar ability to acomplish tasks. At this level, it's soloing cosmics and Elite lair runs, but that's the point we're at. Difficulty isn't balance. Difficulty is a tool to increase engagement into a task. More difficulty more focus, but no system has a requirement to be fair to NPCs, they are there to get killed or rescued by cruel whim of devgods. Difficulty is a means to entertain not a way to be fair to enemy NPCs
This change will modify difficulty for some, but not all, making it even harder to balance, unless even more drastic changes are applied as well.
What you're asking for is reasonable to the argument that this change will kill offense as a matter of standard.
The standard game is easy enough that this will not be the case.
I am simply arguing for the ability for offensive passive to maintain a high level performance similar to other passives. That falls outside the realm of the "Solo Content" category.
Again, if they made it so that no role or passive could solo team content, I'd have nothing to complain about on the balance side of things. That doesn't seem likely however.
I'll admit that saying in my original statement implying that dodge gear automatically gives better damage mitigation isn't entirely true.
However, it's indisputable, in Spinny's and my examples, that dodge gear provides such a huge handicap to an offense build that a defensive passive clearly is not needed for survivability. In fact in most cases a defensive passive giving heaps of damage mitigation would be redundant. The fact is that the offense build can maintain comparable survivability and still dish out high damage makes it superior to a build using a defensive passive. That is the issue and dodge gear is the one major thing creating that issue.
Look at my numbers again. Anything above 50% dodge means that I'll be dodging very often. I've played long enough with builds with above 50% dodge to know that for a fact. 30% avoidance means that I'm already mitigating 30% damage from every incoming attack that I'm dodging so every often, disregarding any other forms of damage mitigation that I'd naturally take, like an active defense and heals that I'm pretty sure are the bread and butter of most effective builds.
Heck, if I felt that I'm not getting enough avoidance, I could simply just get a Breastplate of Agility, slap a similar-ranked Gamblers Gem on it and I'd still get a very decent 40% dodge and 40+% avoidance from gear alone and I'd still be dodging often enough for me to even consider making that swap.
I could even go further and increase my Defense to give at least 30% damage resistance layered beneath the mitigation from avoidance simply from gear and the right spec selections.
At this point I'm not sure what else to tell you since I'm just repeating myself. The numbers back up what I'm saying. My experience with these numbers in practice back up what I'm saying. If even faced with those dodge and avoidance numbers you continue to argue that they don't significantly help boost survivability for an offense build enough so that defensive passives can be chucked aside, then there's either something craptastically wrong with the build / player, or you're just plain in denial.
And if the change isn't game breaking... that means all that dodge-based Legion gear people bought is still worth using... so what are they really complaining about?
Lets see, some people are complaining because a few numbers are/will be lower than they were/are, the rest are complaining because nothing Cryptic ever does is right/good enough.
As I've said before, both on this forum and the STO one, if Cryptic gave $10 of Zen to everyone tomorrow for free with no strings attached, some people would complain that it wasn't $20 worth.
Uh huh, you mean the one gear that gives a significant boost to dodge or the other to avoidance, either one gear that looks to specifically compliment a toon that is specifically built for dodge, would no longer be universally powerful to everyone else whose build focuses on other things like defense and what not?
Seems legit to me. Looks like dodge and avoidance are no longer going to be the king of damage mitigation mechanics and are being further brought in line with other forms of damage mitigation.
ATs, I have little experience with them so I can't comment much.
As for Offensive passive (FF) users? Oh you mean the ones who no longer have the easy way out by slapping dodge gear on themselves and then performing just as good or even better than defensive passive ones in terms of both DPS and damage mitigation, and actually have to get resourceful in sourcing for all available avenues to increase their survivability?
Oh the inhumanity.
I go offensive without dodge, I learnt to pay attention to my opponents and block/get out the way when necessary in order to survive.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
But seriously, how close to these numbers would a DEX LR toon get on PTS with the new Elusive Monk and an Heroic Breastplate of Elusiveness? I'm thinking of doing a DEX/REC/CON LR + FotS Bestial Tank just to spite the "LR can't tank with only +40% dodge!!!1" crowd, and it'd be nice to know whether I'd need to take Evasive Maneuvers.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
But seriously, how close to these numbers would a DEX LR toon get on PTS with the new Elusive Monk and an Heroic Breastplate of Elusiveness? I'm thinking of doing a DEX/REC/CON LR + FotS Bestial Tank just to spite the "LR can't tank with only +40% dodge!!!1" crowd, and it'd be nice to know whether I'd need to take Evasive Maneuvers.
Identical build to my PFF, save for the passive. Which is Lightning Reflexes
Yes, that says 120% Dodge.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Identical build to my PFF, save for the passive. Which is Lightning Reflexes
Yes, that says 120% Dodge.
Nice. Since you've double stacked EM and EM grants 19% dodge on PTS, that means you have 82% passive dodge rate, and that's assuming EM is R3. Why was anyone complaining about LR on PTS?
Thanks again, Cyrone.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Nice. Since you've double stacked EM and EM grants 19% dodge on PTS, that means you have 82% passive dodge rate, and that's assuming EM is R3. Why was anyone complaining about LR on PTS?
Thanks again, Cyrone.
To be fair, in both of those screens I'm using Lead Tempest with the Tread Softly advantage. 15% dodge if you have a stack of Concentration. Also, the Legion's gear that grants avoidance with two R7 Gambler's slotted.
Passive dodge, no buffs, was closer to 66% for me.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Oh, okay. So LR would only have 67.4% dodge before buffs. That's still good but not the OMGOPHAXXORZ!!111!! that it looked like. That's still 71% with Elusive Monk even if that 4% didn't scale (which the devs said it will). So, I should still be good to go without Evasive Maneuvers.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
You're not doing the community any favors here yourself.
Multiple people, fine with the change, are aware of the AT factor, they just feel it doesn't play as important a role, or that it will set freeforms to a level that's more managable allowing for some level of sanity when improving ATs. I personally don't share that opinion.
Also, just because a person doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that they are just here to help a competitor. I disagree with the changes, and as a CoX fanatic am very interested in the progress of CoT.
I don't know if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something, but I'd suggest drinking your coffee, reflect on yourself very hard, decide "Do I want to be a D-bag today?" and edit your post accordingly.
It's tragic that stuff like this makes people lose all sense. It's not difficult to agreeably disagree.
I don't believe for one second you are a power player with your last statement. I don't think you know what you are talking about. At all.
I don't think think you are familiar with the game, or the fact that there is an at factor being forgotten.
When the shills at cotitan don't pay you anything for your worthless post, go ahead and ask for $20 worth.
You missed the discussion ages back when your assertion was crushed. Sad you didn't get the memo.
Piss off.
They weren't claiming to be a "power player", they're right about the community complaining (where have you been?) and ATs aren't going to be affected by this as much as people are claiming. That assertion has been crushed repeatedly by in game practice, which crushes forum theory.
You tried to be a cool cynical guy... but all you did was look like
When the shills at cotitan don't pay you anything for your worthless post, go ahead and ask for $20 worth.
This part is my favorite. Didn't even say he/she was with CoT and BOOM, you make assumptions that they are because they mentioned the unholy phrase of "Cryptic Doesn't Do Anything Right". Wasn't even bagging on Cryptic, just the player's view of them.
So I must say this. Before you try to sound "wite knightxors", don't throw blame at a party not even involved in this.
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because not everyone can fit EM into their concept. LR should be accessible to everyone like any passive.
Really? But with all the supah ultra ninjas running around, I'd have thought it'd be required for concept.
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Edit- I lost control of myself, and I apologize. Rl issues seem to be causing a serious lack of impulse control. No excuse however. TT please cut my mike.
Villain-Mart, the only shopping franchise that caters to that diabolic need. This week at Villain-Mart, save 2 dollars on smoke machines when you shop with your CrimeCard and get buy-one-get-one-free on henchmen and scientists. Villain-Mart! You might be criminal, but our prices aren't!
on LIVE or PTS? what gear you using? what's your dodge chance?
Live and PTS. Live has blue level 40 primaries and secondaries with a green utility primary. Rank 4 or 5 mods. Went through the whole game with barely a struggle before having any decent gear, pre alerts. Currently Guardian/Sentry spec with Ego primary (as a primary melee character).
Tested on PTS with that cheapo gear and did fine in the powerhouse (set for team of five, hard, of course). The character was pretty much as effective on live as on pts. Switched to the shiny new gear to see how it runs and it was a little faster I guess, nothing that would make me want to buy it when all this hits live. I use thundering and dragon kicks, elusive monk and BCR with masterful dodge. Most of the time though, I'm using vicious cyclone for AoE though in groups, so I don't have monk or thundering kicks buff up all the time.
Don't know the dodge chances/changes, and I don't really care. I just care how the character plays and oddly enough, I don't keep detailed notes on my characters stats.
Is that all, detective?
-Campaign: Spells and Coin
--Part 1: Spells and Coin (NW-DHM3XQVQK)
--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
because not everyone can fit EM into their concept. LR should be accessible to everyone like any passive.
I have a good idea .. what if Defiance would only give 3 Stacks of Defiant, but we get a new skill called : "Jump back to get Defiance", that would give you the other stacks if you just jump around instead of fighting ? :biggrin:
For best defiance you should jump back 100% of the time. The good thing is, you don't have to think much about your build, since you are actually never really fighting
I have a good idea .. what if Defiance would only give 3 Stacks of Defiant, but we get a new skill called : "Jump back to get Defiance", that would give you the other stacks if you just jump around instead of fighting ? :biggrin:
For best defiance you should jump back 100% of the time. The good thing is, you don't have to think much about your build, since you are actually never really fighting
As long as Defiance gets buffed to be on the mitigation level that LR can provide, sure. Personally I'm all for more active playstyles in as many places as possible.
I have a good idea .. what if Defiance would only give 3 Stacks of Defiant, but we get a new skill called : "Jump back to get Defiance", that would give you the other stacks if you just jump around instead of fighting ? :biggrin:
For best defiance you should jump back 100% of the time. The good thing is, you don't have to think much about your build, since you are actually never really fighting
Why do I get the feeling people will take this post seriously and not realize it was being sarcastic, in saying the only way a person using defiance without dodge can survive is to run away?
I have a good idea .. what if Defiance would only give 3 Stacks of Defiant, but we get a new skill called : "Jump back to get Defiance", that would give you the other stacks if you just jump around instead of fighting ? :biggrin:
For best defiance you should jump back 100% of the time. The good thing is, you don't have to think much about your build, since you are actually never really fighting
There's a power for that - Breakaway Shot.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
To the OP's question (and taking it far more seriously than Finn intends.)
If I could survive the Gadroon in Canada post-launch, I don't think I'll have problems surviving this nerf. I'll die a few more times and adjust. and maybe scream at the screen a little more often. But I've never sweated the numbers too much. It won't affect my playstyle.
In some ways I support the dodge nerf, in others I don't, but I think its for the better.
It may weakened the survivability of certain archtypes, but I think a character can be built to compensate for that.
You just have to work more towards dodge building.
In some ways I support the dodge nerf, in others I don't, but I think its for the better.
It may weakened the survivability of certain archtypes, but I think a character can be built to compensate for that.
You just have to work more towards dodge building.
Finn wasn't actually the OP.... this post was started during the switch to daylight savings time, so post #8 is actually the OP.
I'm sure this will change your response in some way*.
*- Actually, I just don't think Finn wants credit for starting this thread :P
Comments
At least for me the most dangerous mobs are those like Mutated Mayor Biselle or Corrupted Amphibian in VB Crisis.
However they are mostly a danger if you need to go into melee .. if you can fly and use ranged powers its not that big problem.
And of course too much Brickbusters :biggrin:
The first says she believes with that set-up she will do better than a character with a defensive passive, "with a potent mix of survivability and DPS output"
The second quote claims she can get an absolute equal or better ammount of both damage and mitigation on an offensive passive user over a defensive passive user. Changing the level of scrutiny from doing everything better or equal in every way to Better enough in one aspect and not as good in another, but still good.
Theres a difference.
Now, @Kenpo
I like you. You may not notice me around ingame, but I pay a lot of attention to the community. People like Nepht, Caliga, Thundrax, yourself, you're good people. You do good things to help new players, and help make it a community rather than a bunch of people all occupying the same digital space, report spaming Lucy.
I say what I say and argue against popular opinion, not because I'm a bastard that want's to troll you people (If I wanted to troll you I'd make about three different threads on the subject, not taking it seriously while at the same time mocking people who don't agree with me), but rather because it's just what I see of the gameplay-side. If I play your characters, I'll just see it with your characters.
I can't see a gap in damage when a support role character, who's 35% (base) lower damage than my offense role archer, rocks epidemic or avalanche or a big hitter they get access to because: Freeform and kills a group in basically the same time it takes me to.
It really is going to take something akin to God moving the moon to convince me that there's a real damage gap gained for taking a damage passive that demands such a mitigation gap. Both because of the breakdowns I've done and my own experience in-game.
And that is more or less the point. The offensive char does more dmg, you can look ath the tooltips and compare them. But that does not matter against normal mobs because they are so weak.
The same can be said for defense. If you rush in with your offensive char or your defensive char does not matter. You see different stats on you screen but in reality it just does not matter.
The only point were it matters might be big bosses, like gravitar. You will notice the lack of dmg in a prolonged fight because it takes longer. You might notice the lack of defense because you have to be more aware but the offensive character will be able to tank just the same.
There is no use in the game for the extreme defense of a tank since an offensive char can fill the same role and do more dmg.
In other words: the more dmg the faster the boss falls, there is no cap in usefulness.
BUT you only need enough defense to survive. You cannot do more than survive. If I get 500 dmg and can heal 600 I am fine. If I take 250 dmg and can heal 600 I am in theory the better tank but in reality I do not perform better in any way.
Thats the point.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
If character A can mitigate/heal 100,000 damage per second, and deals 100,000 damage per second
and character B can mitigate/heal 200,000 damage per seccond, and deals 50,000 damage per second
BUT no group of NPCs, nor any boss NPC, in the game even does more than 80,000 damage per second...
That means that Character A is outperforming Character B offensively and matching their ability defensively, even though technically Character B has more defense... because the majority of Character B's defense is overkill and isn't even coming into effect. The fact that Character B technically has more defense, is irrelevant.
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The game isn't just team content though. And there's so much caveat in that example. The first character's 2 hits per heal to kill, the second three. Defense has to heal ever other attack it takes (Hit->Hit->Heal) to survive, whereas the offensive user has to heal every hit it takes (Hit->Heal) if it wants to stay standing.
Actions take time. It's an opportunity cost. You lose room to move and take other action when you start with a lower base mitigation. Assume they're Damage and tank roles. The tank player has twice as much time to respond with an attack as the offense user. Even if I assume offense has a much higher damage level (which I don't really believe), twice as much room to attack allows for 2x as many hits at 1 base damage meaning the defense user has an easier time, and can match the damage rate of an offense user with up to 2x as much base damage.
The act of surviving is gradient, and has many working parts. Go block against a bunch of level 35s using a level 40 regen with a shield that does damage as it's hit. You'll survive, you'll kill, but you won't tell me you could do no better.
That's not how the game works though, so it's irrelevent. Look to my response to aetam for how things actually work, and how differences in mitigation can create gray areas that you ignore.
How it works depends on your build. If your build is meant to channel something -conviction - channel etc and use conviction with mca as energy creator you can not really skip your heal (of course on can now debate if such a build would be flawed). If you use BCR and the tank only needs it half of the time the opportunity cost is not that high due to the long duration. If your heal comes from devour essence you do dmg at the same time.
There might also be outside healing from auras without the cost of any action or healing from a healer who could only offer minimal dmg if he was not healing. There could also be healing through crits from con primary spec.
Also do not underestimate the bonus from a dmg role. And the bonus from an offensive passive. Despite possible opportunity costs my offensive chars outdmg my defensive ones while being able to tank the same bosses.
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Damage role is 1.25x vs hybrid and tank with various shenanegins to the additive damage boosts. It has been demonstrated by build-fu greater than my own, as I would not have guessed it, that Defiance can match WoTW on damage thanks to DR sillyness. Generally speaking (Meaning ignoring wierd builders such as myself who take between 5-7 attacks and other strange build decisions) the difference in damage will be that 1.25x, and incredibly unlikely to ever exceed 1.58x.
As to the rest, can you start to see how it's not as cut and dry as surviving = matching the passive's performance? There is a ton of gray area that is being ignored.
Powers and teamates have advantages, you heal the whole time with DE against that big boss, I use Massacre and abuse the bonus damage because the boss can't be knocked, and do 4-5k taps. The system allows for this up and down depending on choices, but a similarly invested offense role character and defensive passive character, pushing the limits of the roles, will remain close in performance (regardless of which is ahead at the time) and each will have their own advantages and disadvantages to playstyle.
If character A gets 100,001 damage he is death, Character B stil has 99,999 life and can heal up.
I see that but you are ignoring a part as well. You claim the difference in offense does not matter only the difference in defense does.
I am no master builder and I do certainly lack experience. Still I can tell you my offensive chars have a higher dmg output than my defensive ones while still being able to tank everything.
I do not discount the possibility that my defensive char are underperforming due to my errors BUT I can tell you that my offensive chars are to tanky to justify being offensive chars. And I might add the defensive is not even hurt that bad with the dodge rework.
That is true but the enemy that does 100,001 damage does not exist in this game. That was the whole point.
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Suffice it to say, I'm more interested in real world performance as opposed to playing the numbers game. It's why I'm nearly never caught posting numbers despite doing a fair bit of number crunching myself because numbers never tell the whole story and are often used more to obfuscate matters rather than clarify them. Raw numbers don't factor in a number of intangibles such as player skill, reaction time, situational variances, playstyle, build variances in accordance with playstyle, etc.
That said, these things could change the discussion I feel:
A) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can complete and an offensive passive user can't complete at all.
C) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can't complete that an offensive passive user can.
D) An example of solo content that a defensive passive user can complete faster than an offensive passive user.
Edit: The corresponding variants for support passives can be mixed in as well but K.I.S.S. is what I was going for.
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I prolly shouldn't poke this bear, but this just almost made me absolutely lose it laughing (while my prof was talking about a child murdering another child).
...why?
That could be a build problem instead of anything else. We need specifics, dammit!
I probably shouldn't laugh at this, but damn that's terrible timing. I hope he didn't get too pissed.
But there is no scenario where that would actually happen.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If you believe I'm saying that the difference in offense doesn't matter, then I must not be communicating effectively, and I'm sorry.
I am saying, that the difference in offense is worth what is lost in mitigation. I believe that the difference in each roughly pay for each other. The difference in both are incredibly important and, I believe, it is a reasonable trade off.
Also, not saying the world is going to end and everyone is going to die. I belive, have experienced, and have said that defensive passive users and some support passive users will continue on unabated. That's the problem. One type of passive will not have the same potential for growth as the others.
I give zero craps about team content and solo content, I'm purly interested in inter-power balance. If I take a defensive passive or an offensive passive, in a balanced system, I should expect a similar level of growth in each, varying in the details, as well as, a similar ability to acomplish tasks. At this level, it's soloing cosmics and Elite lair runs, but that's the point we're at. Difficulty isn't balance. Difficulty is a tool to increase engagement into a task. More difficulty more focus, but no system has a requirement to be fair to NPCs, they are there to get killed or rescued by cruel whim of devgods. Difficulty is a means to entertain not a way to be fair to enemy NPCs
This change will modify difficulty for some, but not all, making it even harder to balance, unless even more drastic changes are applied as well.
What you're asking for is reasonable to the argument that this change will kill offense as a matter of standard.
The standard game is easy enough that this will not be the case.
I am simply arguing for the ability for offensive passive to maintain a high level performance similar to other passives. That falls outside the realm of the "Solo Content" category.
Again, if they made it so that no role or passive could solo team content, I'd have nothing to complain about on the balance side of things. That doesn't seem likely however.
Also, @Pion01 lol sorry about that :redface:
However, it's indisputable, in Spinny's and my examples, that dodge gear provides such a huge handicap to an offense build that a defensive passive clearly is not needed for survivability. In fact in most cases a defensive passive giving heaps of damage mitigation would be redundant. The fact is that the offense build can maintain comparable survivability and still dish out high damage makes it superior to a build using a defensive passive. That is the issue and dodge gear is the one major thing creating that issue.
Look at my numbers again. Anything above 50% dodge means that I'll be dodging very often. I've played long enough with builds with above 50% dodge to know that for a fact. 30% avoidance means that I'm already mitigating 30% damage from every incoming attack that I'm dodging so every often, disregarding any other forms of damage mitigation that I'd naturally take, like an active defense and heals that I'm pretty sure are the bread and butter of most effective builds.
Heck, if I felt that I'm not getting enough avoidance, I could simply just get a Breastplate of Agility, slap a similar-ranked Gamblers Gem on it and I'd still get a very decent 40% dodge and 40+% avoidance from gear alone and I'd still be dodging often enough for me to even consider making that swap.
I could even go further and increase my Defense to give at least 30% damage resistance layered beneath the mitigation from avoidance simply from gear and the right spec selections.
At this point I'm not sure what else to tell you since I'm just repeating myself. The numbers back up what I'm saying. My experience with these numbers in practice back up what I'm saying. If even faced with those dodge and avoidance numbers you continue to argue that they don't significantly help boost survivability for an offense build enough so that defensive passives can be chucked aside, then there's either something craptastically wrong with the build / player, or you're just plain in denial.
Just reminding everyone that a piece of easily obtainable gear almost gives you an entire Rank 3 defensive passive, in case anyone forgot that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=145616
same old, same old
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Lets see, some people are complaining because a few numbers are/will be lower than they were/are, the rest are complaining because nothing Cryptic ever does is right/good enough.
As I've said before, both on this forum and the STO one, if Cryptic gave $10 of Zen to everyone tomorrow for free with no strings attached, some people would complain that it wasn't $20 worth.
I go offensive without dodge, I learnt to pay attention to my opponents and block/get out the way when necessary in order to survive.
Nothing to see here.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
lol Cyrone. Like you count. :P
But seriously, how close to these numbers would a DEX LR toon get on PTS with the new Elusive Monk and an Heroic Breastplate of Elusiveness? I'm thinking of doing a DEX/REC/CON LR + FotS Bestial Tank just to spite the "LR can't tank with only +40% dodge!!!1" crowd, and it'd be nice to know whether I'd need to take Evasive Maneuvers.
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Identical build to my PFF, save for the passive. Which is Lightning Reflexes
Yes, that says 120% Dodge.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Nice. Since you've double stacked EM and EM grants 19% dodge on PTS, that means you have 82% passive dodge rate, and that's assuming EM is R3. Why was anyone complaining about LR on PTS?
Thanks again, Cyrone.
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To be fair, in both of those screens I'm using Lead Tempest with the Tread Softly advantage. 15% dodge if you have a stack of Concentration. Also, the Legion's gear that grants avoidance with two R7 Gambler's slotted.
Passive dodge, no buffs, was closer to 66% for me.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
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You're not doing the community any favors here yourself.
Multiple people, fine with the change, are aware of the AT factor, they just feel it doesn't play as important a role, or that it will set freeforms to a level that's more managable allowing for some level of sanity when improving ATs. I personally don't share that opinion.
Also, just because a person doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that they are just here to help a competitor. I disagree with the changes, and as a CoX fanatic am very interested in the progress of CoT.
I don't know if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something, but I'd suggest drinking your coffee, reflect on yourself very hard, decide "Do I want to be a D-bag today?" and edit your post accordingly.
It's tragic that stuff like this makes people lose all sense. It's not difficult to agreeably disagree.
Some good information LR from the PTS forum.
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They weren't claiming to be a "power player", they're right about the community complaining (where have you been?) and ATs aren't going to be affected by this as much as people are claiming. That assertion has been crushed repeatedly by in game practice, which crushes forum theory.
You tried to be a cool cynical guy... but all you did was look like
:< ya blew it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This part is my favorite. Didn't even say he/she was with CoT and BOOM, you make assumptions that they are because they mentioned the unholy phrase of "Cryptic Doesn't Do Anything Right". Wasn't even bagging on Cryptic, just the player's view of them.
So I must say this. Before you try to sound "wite knightxors", don't throw blame at a party not even involved in this.
Really? But with all the supah ultra ninjas running around, I'd have thought it'd be required for concept.
It is.
I don't use EM on any of my LR characters and I do just fine. Weird, right?
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Aaaaawww snap!
Live and PTS. Live has blue level 40 primaries and secondaries with a green utility primary. Rank 4 or 5 mods. Went through the whole game with barely a struggle before having any decent gear, pre alerts. Currently Guardian/Sentry spec with Ego primary (as a primary melee character).
Tested on PTS with that cheapo gear and did fine in the powerhouse (set for team of five, hard, of course). The character was pretty much as effective on live as on pts. Switched to the shiny new gear to see how it runs and it was a little faster I guess, nothing that would make me want to buy it when all this hits live. I use thundering and dragon kicks, elusive monk and BCR with masterful dodge. Most of the time though, I'm using vicious cyclone for AoE though in groups, so I don't have monk or thundering kicks buff up all the time.
Don't know the dodge chances/changes, and I don't really care. I just care how the character plays and oddly enough, I don't keep detailed notes on my characters stats.
Is that all, detective?
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--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
-One Shots
--The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)
I have a good idea .. what if Defiance would only give 3 Stacks of Defiant, but we get a new skill called : "Jump back to get Defiance", that would give you the other stacks if you just jump around instead of fighting ? :biggrin:
For best defiance you should jump back 100% of the time. The good thing is, you don't have to think much about your build, since you are actually never really fighting
As long as Defiance gets buffed to be on the mitigation level that LR can provide, sure. Personally I'm all for more active playstyles in as many places as possible.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Why do I get the feeling people will take this post seriously and not realize it was being sarcastic, in saying the only way a person using defiance without dodge can survive is to run away?
There's a power for that - Breakaway Shot.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
If I could survive the Gadroon in Canada post-launch, I don't think I'll have problems surviving this nerf. I'll die a few more times and adjust. and maybe scream at the screen a little more often. But I've never sweated the numbers too much. It won't affect my playstyle.
It may weakened the survivability of certain archtypes, but I think a character can be built to compensate for that.
You just have to work more towards dodge building.
Finn wasn't actually the OP.... this post was started during the switch to daylight savings time, so post #8 is actually the OP.
I'm sure this will change your response in some way*.
*- Actually, I just don't think Finn wants credit for starting this thread :P
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And, what kind of power is it ? Is it a block, and active defense or what exactly ?
Sorry for the stupid question, but i have seen some numbers for that skill in many threads, but never read what it really is