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Buff Defiance
rugrothrumbor
Posts: 534 Arc User
So far Invulnerability grants both damage absorption and resistance. Regeneration grants the best self-healing possibly imagined plus some resistances. How about Defiance gets something extra too? It serves only one purpose and that's mitigating burst damage. Sure it has the energy gain every time you take damage but that doesn't help with the survivability of the power. Few ideas to update on Defiance.
1. Critical Resist: Critical resist works like critical strikes in that they have a chance to happen instead of being consistent. Except on the defense. Critical resist would enable you to reduce more damage when it happens by chance when you're hit (it's chance happening is based on your super stats).
2. Minor Regeneration: Like Regeneration got some damage resistance, it would be fair that Defiance gets a little self-healing of it's own.
3. Critical Regeneration: This takes the ideas of both 1 and 2. In that there is a chance that when you're hit you gain health back. This would grant more health than minor regeneration would because it's not consistent.
1. Critical Resist: Critical resist works like critical strikes in that they have a chance to happen instead of being consistent. Except on the defense. Critical resist would enable you to reduce more damage when it happens by chance when you're hit (it's chance happening is based on your super stats).
2. Minor Regeneration: Like Regeneration got some damage resistance, it would be fair that Defiance gets a little self-healing of it's own.
3. Critical Regeneration: This takes the ideas of both 1 and 2. In that there is a chance that when you're hit you gain health back. This would grant more health than minor regeneration would because it's not consistent.
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The nice thing about it scaling with Con is that Endorphin Rush does too, so if you can keep stacking Enrage, you can keep a steady stream of incoming HP.
However, it could still use something more - it's very vulnerable to attrition in large groups, and against singl big hitters, there isn't a huge difference between Invulnerability's 70% Resist + Damage Reduction and Defiance's 114% Resists.
The name "Defiance" implies more than just defense to me; I feel that it should add in some way to offensive ability, just like some Offensive Passives add defensive measures; I'd suggest either a +damage added to each stack of Defiance, or a small amount of reflected damage when taking a hit.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Add either a built-in effect or a 1- or 2-point advantage to Defiant that gives it a 10% chance to add a stack of Enraged every time you take damage. It would max at one stack unless you had an Enrage granting form. The normal internal cooldown on stacking Enrage would apply; even if you had a lucky streak, you couldn't get multiple stacks at once, or in a really short period of time.
By taking Enrage and selecting Endorphin Rush, it becomes possible to get a constant Heal over Time, without resorting to powers that scatter everything all over the map. It would also benefit the Behemoth overall; I feel thst it's one of the most unpleasant ATs to level, and I know I'm not the only one.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
A. Grant more healing from Endorphin Rush
B. Increase Crit Severity by 3% per Rank
Namely damage source adaptation, those massive brutes in Aftershock seem to have access to it, allowing them to adapt to a damage type for a time, making it less effective.
- Adaptation Innate - You carefully adapt to the most prevalent incoming damage type granting you extra resistance to that particular damage type for a time. This allows you to absorb a small portion of the incoming damage type to stay in the fight longer.
When I think about Defiance, due to it's stacking mechanic, I tend to think of things like Alex Mercer's bio armor? Being able to adapt over a short space of time to a damage type.
I think also Defiance stacks and how they are gained (time lag from one stack to another) should be looked into, perhaps reducing the time between stacks gained?
Blood Gorgers in VB (those massive fugly vamps with muscles) their defiance stacks build up to max in just six ticks, of course that is way too fast but perhaps like every 3 ticks of damage you gain a stack? (I am not too sure in what time lag they now operate, last time I used Defiance I was a behemoth AT)
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Wait what? Since when is Regeneration that good?! Actually it's not, Conviction itself out heals Regeneration + Conviction scales off everything that buffs healing.
No offense but you are biased here. Not saying that Defiance does not need some help but Regeneration and PFF are by far more vulnerable and difficult to deal with than Defiance.
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What's this awful visual effect? This is now making me wonder if Endorphin Rush was even working for me, since I didn't have any defiant buff.
A short lived, not very obtrusive green 'wave' that moves across your character. That's about it.
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Well it's better to have a bonus like 25% damage resistance than none at all. Defiance has no self-heal. Regeneration needs help? What's stopping you from using Conviction and Regeneration at the same time? Also Regeneration doesn't scale off of Presence and %healing it scales off of super stats. Without taking other self-healing powers to back up Defiance it is lackluster compared to Invulnerability and Regeneration. I'm just saying Defiance needs a bonus that helps with defense like Regen and Invuln have.
Also I'm not sure if it's just a tooltip issue, but the description of Endorphin Rush scaling off of Defiant stacks isn't there anymore. And I heard from others that ER doesn't scale off Defiant! anymore. What's going on there?
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What's stopping you from using Defiance + Conviction? Regen has % res only at full HP and as it gets lower so does the mitigation. Neither LR, Invu, PFF etc. have a self heal in them so what's your point? You complain Defiance is not the uber passive? :rolleyes:
Show me where I said Regen scales off Presence !:eek: I said Conviction scales off healing buffs.
Without mitigation and investing a ton in HP Regen is useless. You get worn down really fast since mitigation is a joke on Regen so spikes of any kind can one shot you. Please spare me the nonsense. Defiance is by far superior to Regen. You seem to forget that it's easier to self heal than to get % dmg mitigation + the more you mitigate the less you have to heal.
No idea, did not talk about that.
If you want to make a point then don't drag passives like Regen or Invu in it. Each has it's pro's and con's and as it stands Regen is not even close to Defiance or Invu. Take Defiance + R3 IDF, the overall dmg you will mitigate will by far exceed INVU since Defiance has a higher % mitigation. You will have to sacrifice a form but lol, what do you expect Defiance to be the new FOTM.
Yeah, it's kind of a weird, green mesh that starts at your head and flows down your body. I think it inherits its color from Enrage, because it's yellow on one of my characters that I used the change all option on.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Defiance is more then fine is it is, it has the highest damage resistance out of any passive, it gives tons of energy and doesn't require any adv points. The only weakness are the first few hits you get in a fight, and masterful dodge (which almost everyone seems to have anyway) takes care of that.
There are a lot of powers that are actually quite bad and do need some love. How about all the ice attack powers besides avalanche and ice blast, vapor form, or all the celestial attacks, or the earth set, personal force field, crushing wave, iron lariat, iron chain, vile lariat, lash, vala's light, aoe attacks on bestial and claws and darkness, single target attacks on heavy weapons.
I've got characters that use both passives. Both seem to work pretty well, if you ask me.
I've yet to try Regeneration. Maybe my next toon...
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Invulnerability, Regeneration and Lightning Reflexes have all been buffed. PFF also got a minor buff. Defiance is still kept the way it was and is performing poorly compared to the first three I mentioned.
It's easier to get self-heal than damage mitigation? Have you ever tried out all the powers, specializations and other combinations? Try Strength's Juggernaut specialization. And have you tried blocking sometime?
I can make any build using Regeneration, note these are ranged toons with no Juggernaut specializations. But with Defiance I have to get two to three self-healing powers and also stack some specializations to help it. I don't need to do much with Regeneration.
Also sacrifice a form by getting IDF with Defiance. This is just another example, this is a large cut on your damage. Taking Defiance means you have to grab several other powers to stand with Invulnerability and Regeneration. I'm not asking for Defiance gaining a self-heal that's even 50% of what Regeneration is, I'm talking about one that would make it worth it as much as Invuln and Regen in which I don't have to grab several other powers to make it worthwhile.
And why shouldn't I make comparisons with Regen and Invuln? The main point is that they have special bonuses that help them manage the weaknesses they had while Defiance has nothing to fight back it's weaknesses. This isn't a post to nerf Regen and Invuln so where's the harm?
That was back when Invulnerability had only 30% damage resistance and there was no defense boosting specializations.. Invulnerability was still superior in terms of fighting multiple weak enemies, Defiance was the master of taking on a single big bad boss. Invulnerability's weakness was it couldn't take a hit from a big bad boss, Defiance's weakness is that it can't take on multiple enemies very well.
Invulnerability gets a boost to that damage resistance to 60%ish and you can also boost your damage resistance further via different powers/advantages and specializations.
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You know if you think Defiance is that bad then why not use Regen or Invu instead. You are pretty much the only one I've heard say that Defiance underperformes.
Even with all the specialization Healing is still much simpler. You disregard many benefits Defiance has over other passives that it's borderline absurd.
1. You get energy (no other defensive passive gives you energy)
2. You don't need to rank it up to get full benefit (can practically save 4 adv points)
Those are things NO other passives have. All others need to be ranked up to get the full benefit + you get energy which again no other Defensive Passive gives you.
Sry but NO, you are cherry picking things and comparing them without taking into consideration all the benefits of Defiance. There is not BEST passive (if that were the case everyone would use it) and each has it's own + and -. Every passive requires you to BUILD UPON IT, you seem to disregard that fact and demand that Defiance gets something just because.
Also, Regen heals you passively.. meaning I don't have to devote any power activations to it, I can spend all my time spamming attacks.
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I guess that's enough for me to say. OK you're a troll good show. Because I don't see what you're getting out of this argument. I see Defiance needing some kind of bonus to cover a part of it's weakness against multiple enemies which all the other passives have gotten. If Defiance gets a buff so what? Is this a PvP issue for you?
And before you tell me, "Oh I'm a troll because I disagree with you." It's more like I identify you as a troll because you're arguing over something that doesn't impact your favorite powers. You just want to give me grief.
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Don't patronize me and tell me what I can and cannot do + you are the troll here. Instead of evaluating and looking at all the aspects and bonuses Defiance offers you instead decide do cry foul. I brought valid arguments and points whereas you only complain about Defiance no being the uber passive. All passives require outside help whether it's powers or specializations etc... YOU don't want to bother with that and for NO REASON state that Defiance is worse that Regen or INVU. I'm not trolling you, it's you who can't accept the truth that's the problem. Who except you argued that Defiance needs a buff? I'd understand PFF or Regen but Defiance?
What exactly are you going up against that makes you feel weak running Defiance? Obviously against trash mobs INVU is better due to absorbtion and Regen is good as long as the outside dmg does not exceed the healing. No matter how much you block if you can't out heal the dmg you just prolog your own death. Again, what exactly are you going up against that makes you think Regen or INVU would be superior.
OH and again, WHY don't you use INVU or REGEN if you think they are so much more superior?
Face it, you are the troll here who's so narrow minded and focused on his biased goal that nothing else gets to you. Don't go calling people trolls just because they don't agree with you. (<== That's what you are doing)
I think the energy return is good enough. It provides you with the means to either pound things faster (thus ending a source of incoming damage) or activate a healing power, whichever would be more optimal according to the situation.
Defense-wise, isn't Defiance already very competitive with Invulnerability and Lightning Reflexes? And don't all three surpass Regeneration and Personal Force Field? If I remember correctly, exactly which one preforms better is conditional; Invul defends better against small hits (most attacks from henchmen) while Defiance defends better against large hits (charged attacks from bosses and Gravitar in general). It's true that there's a ramp-up period to build stacks (short period if taking hits from a maintain attack or multiple enemies, which are usually minor hits), small hits are far more common (which don't really need much defending against), and you require CON (which is one of the best stats considering more health is always useful and the innate CON bonus is UNAFFECTED BY DIMINISHING RETURNS) but I think the energy return and not needing to rank it up (it only shortens the ramp up time needed to hit maximum stacks) for maximum benefit more than makes up for it. Even the advantage is somewhat useful. To me, Defiance has been the one of the, if not the, most powerful defensive passive; it's been my go-to passive for general toughness (Invul sparkles and the other three do not always fit thematically) and when advantage points are short.
So yeah... I'd never thought I'd see such a thread. I had honestly thought this was a troll thread created by a blithe forum poster like spinnytop or a misunderstood rant from a newbie like m1ndfr1k. But you, rugrothrumbor, have been here for quite sometime (dating back to the Atari days, if I recall correctly) and I consider you to be one of the more level forum posters. Now I guess I'll wait for someone to make a thread asking for a buff to Aura of Primal Majesty.
You're both trolling each other and yourselves.
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OH like your comment just now had anything to do with this thread. If you have anything to say to the topic then do it otherwise your just derailing and not helping at all. Who's trolling here eh?:rolleyes:
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Aside from the fact that the amount of resist from Defiance soft caps earlier than AoRPs resists, there's really nothing wrong with Defiance itself. Yes, it does require at least one healing power/spec, but most passives do. The only ones that don't absolutely need one are Quarry (which has a healing advantage), Regen, and Medical Nanites. And each of those passives still work noticeably better with at least Resurgence as a backup heal.
There is definitely a problem with Endorphin Rush though. The healing scales poorly at low CON and very well at high CON. It should be adjusted so that characters can still get a usable heal out of it at low levels. Right now it's practically useless on low level characters, especially Behemoths who rely on it more than most freeforms since it's, more or less, their only heal.
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There's also the issue where you can't select it at all if you get your Enrage stacks from Aspect of the Bestial.
Yes, I know it isn't relevant to Behemoths, but it still affects some players.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
However, since right now its advantage, Force of Will, is useless, why not change it to something that works even if you are not dead? :biggrin:
Like providing some low Stun/Knock resist at full health that scales to moderate values as the health gets lower?
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For me Defiance was much better in the days when Invuln was scaling with STR since is seldom used STR on my characters. After they changed all passives beside Defiance to scale with Superstats however i switched more and more to Invuln.
Quite a bit changed with defiance. Back in the day it was the one reliable way to stack Enrage quickly as you gained stacks per stack of defiant (your other option was to tediously maintain it one stack at a time with the click buff, or use Might attacks). Now forms exist for enrage.
You could run IDF + Enrage/Focus back then, which is why it was considered superior over Invuln.
Invuln got a hefty buff when the three superstat system came out, giving it more resistance. Defiance however is stuck on an archaic system where it can only benefit from Con, and that scaling was not increased. The damage resistance between Defiance and Invuln isn't too far apart now.
Force of Will has always sucked.
Dear sweet mother of God, YES. Behemoth is SUCH a pain to handle because of exactly the stuff you're describing. Cryptic, DO THIS.
But on the other hand, its circumstances also make it the least flexible. Con has to be involved somewhere, or else it severely underperforms compared to other defense passives. I guess Quarry is in a similar boat, but those two really are outliers for completely opposite reasons (not to mention it likes forming Ego/Int feedback loops). It also has an annoying ramp-up period, and much more key, doesn't gain anything for its maximum potential when ranked up.
Some musings I had on the passive in the past:
I will agree that when they changed Enrage into a Form, it broke a very nice synergy with Defiance and Might toons have suffered for it.
Though my noticing of hearing "Defiance is the best" to "Defiance sucks" was more recent than that, like in the past year. Maybe it just caught up to people?
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It's fine.
With the exception of PFF all other Defensive Passives have 2 defensive aspects to them.
Invulnerability:
Flat damage reduction based off Super Stats
27/33/40% damage resistance
Lightning Reflexes:
Increased Dodge and Avoid based off Super Stats
+ dodge change every attack until successful dodge
50/55% DoT resistance
Regeneration:
Constant Regen Health scales with Super Stats
Up to 250% temporary boost to Regen upon taking damage
Small boost to Damage Resistance
On top of that none of these options have a reliance on any specific stat, nor do they require you to take any specific skills to make them functional... all of them are functional on their own.
Personal Force Field offers it's own advantages and like the other passives isn't heavily reliant on outside sources to function. While it's highly recommended to include IDF with it, this is not absolutely necessary for the passive to function. Nor does it require you to take a specific stat.
At one point I was able to counter Defiance's flaw on one of my heroes by taking IDF and sacrificing a little damage, but since she hit like a truck anyway it didn't matter as much, running Defiance, Enrage, Aggressor(Form), IDF... it worked out great back then... but with the Form changes and buffs to other defensive passives this build was not only broken but gimped. Can no longer take IDF to counter Defiance's lack of defense against small attacks and still build Enraged since Aggressor is now an Active Offence not a Form, and Enrage is a Form, as well as IDF becoming a Form... so it became "Keep your damage, or keep your defense" I've come to terms with that change... however... this still leaves a glaring hole in Defiance's defensive capabilities.
Some changes I'd think would work well would be the following
Give Defiance a base damage reduction value that scales with Rank (something small but functional)
Make Defiance scale off Super Stats, remove it's requirement of Con (advantages of high Con do not outweigh disadvantages of not scaling with Super Stats)
Small Offense boost with Defiance stacks (very small...)
Chance heal on hit effect, scales off Super Stats
Doing this creates the following functionality out of Defiance
Builds up stacks upon being damaged, each stack grants Damage Resist, Energy, and a small Offense bonus, these benefits scale with Super Stats allowing you to build the stats you desire most.
Small hits against you are reduced by a small amount based off your Rank, this creates a reason to rank up, yet provides a small enough benefit that you may still opt to remain at rank 1 with minimal impact.
Random chance to gain a healing benefit upon receiving damage, this scales with Super Stats and is independent of Rank, reducing reliance on outside heals yet not replacing them entirely.
These changes would make the skill feel like it is "Defiance". "The harder you hit me the stronger I become, I defy pain."
Take damage, become stronger not only defensively but offensively too (by a small amount), restore energy, slight reduction to all incoming damage, and a chance to heal back some of the damage that's been dealt to you.
The perception of defiance may very well changed when dodge became so very easy to stack without a dodge passive. If I recall correctly dodge reduces damage before the flat damage reduction of invulnerability is applied. I may be mistaken here but I believe that you will find that dodge/avoidance plus the flat damage reduction and +resistance of invulnerability provides more survivability than dodge/avoidance plus the +resistance of defiance.
Also consider that some builds do not need defiance's bonus energy gain and so it may not seem up to par with a passive that does not make trade offs in defense in order to gain energy.
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