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How tanks have been feeling about dps/tank hybrids
spinnytop
Posts: 16,450 Arc User
dey tik ar gerbs
wait... I mean... I took their jobs...
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And with the dodge nerf, they'll get it back.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Neva lost my job.
>_> Have any Glacier tips?
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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I wonder how many people will take that as a challenge.
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Most of CO, that's for sure.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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I think the dodge nerf is enough to deal with this issue. Tanks and Healers will definitely be more valuable now.
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Excuse me? You are going to tell me that there is something wrong with diversity within the player base? Why the hell should everyone go Hybrid because you want a non trinity game?
Making Healers and Tanks more USEFUL/VALUABLE doesn't mean #AutoHolyTrinityInCO.
CO has a FREE FORM system for a reason, if someone wants to play as a tank or healer they have as much right as the next person to feel valued in a team and do their job.
Please read before you comment, it saves lives and brain cells.
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Ahem...
Why are roles any different?
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
So people shouldn't be able to build their characters to heal or to take a lot of damage because... you said so? Those types of characters are just fine. The content doesn't need it, but people should be able to play however they want.
Edit: Oops, didn't see the other posts above mine responding to the same thing.
Until I ran a well-geared character in tank role.
I also have a DPS Role on one, and a Regen Hybrid/DPS. She also does well and keeps DPS because of Raw Damage. This one uses crit and dodge gear.
I dunno...this is going to be trinity. I see it happening. It's how the achetypes were introduced just before I left, and then returned as a FF Gold member.
The issue is that the Archetypes for healing need love to be honest. They are rather boring in general. Grimoir at least has something interesting. Celestial to me is only good for picking and choosing if you are FF, and Telepathy...well meh. Pets have never been my thing.
So overall, it will be trinity to a sense, but I would never play anything but DPS if I was not a FF toon. They are just way to dull but with little gems poking through here and there.
Old time member. I miss NERF :eek:
Old time member. I miss NERF :eek:
Probably because of how they are phrased:
Telling people that tanks and healers should be stopped....
Telling people that healers and tanks should not be (in CO)...
CO is a trinity game.
Co is also a trinity free game with hybrid characters and wolf-pack tactics.
CO is the game you make of it based on how you choose to play.
To be honest I rather dislike the whole concept/mechanic of tanking (I remain more than a little annoyed that Cryptic reduced the threat generated while in DPS role) and don't find all that much true to the genre in a pure healing build. But if someone wants to put together a group using traditional fantasy MMO roles...more power to them.
All of that said, I understand your desire to ensure that CO does not evolve into a forced trinity game. I just don't think you really have to worry about it.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
There's a mental issue with people that think when they're playing a tank nobody else should in hell be able to take as much punishment as themselves to the point that they want to see the others weakened. I don't know how people with high survivability that are not tanking are breaking your tanking in anyway.
Also being a tank doesn't mean you have to have every enemy attacking you. That's WoW raid ****. Dividing up the damage between multiple tank-worthy teammates is another strategy, one that would actually hold more water against 1 tank holding all aggro and 1 healer healing him. Because there is almost no healers in this game just "support" as I heard which are basically people that do whatever the hell they feel like doing (and heck rare to find a support toon that heals).
Hence this game can't be a trinity anyway because there is no healer class which would make up part of the trinity. Did I forget to mention support is not a healer?
To people that want to be tanks, if you think you feel worthless that's your own psychological issue, because I have not seen anyone talk down on tanks before, it's usually people like YOU that are the ones saying tanks are useless just because YOU feel useless. Just keep doing the job you like doing.
Also need to add when you actually got a real tank or a real healer runs did go more smoothly than before, so how would you feel useless? You're probably feeling useless because you're just really bad at the job.
And healers, very few for a reason.
Having to rely on a TANK/HEALER because one decided they wanted to be a comic book superhero type, just seems...meh.
Actually I'm pretty sure I've done that to you in the past... But I'm teasing you, I wouldn't want you to actually leave Caliga, you're an integral part of the community's diversity.
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While this viewpoint is often quoted, it is also quite wrong. You see them regularly, just people never associate them as tanking because in most comics they tend to dodge around and avoid direct blasts as best they can, something the mechanics of CO doesn't allow for outside of using the block key. And people that provide morale support and such can be considered the healers, so really, I never get this line of thinking they never exist in comics, when they are plain as day if you actually pay attention.
Yea, I've never exactly lost aggro to DPS either, and I've known a few situations where people got upset that I actually held threat better than those people.
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You can nerf dodge, but you can't nerf flavor of the month.
This is one thing I don't get...It's like, okay, they aren't dying, and they are maintaining threat.
So...Doesn't that give you full right to whip out the big guns and have at it without caring much?
This is probably the only game I've seen where people complain about supports and tanks.
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I've only ever played with you once, but there was some very very good DPS in the Kiga group, and you never lost aggro for even a split second. From that point on I measured any other tank I teamed with against the memory of that fight. It was an eye opener as I had never experienced a tank able to hold aggro against that level of DPS.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Example say I lose a duel in ren cen, I am sick to death of players running over and rezing me without asking, I may want to rez myself , my rez makes zombehs occur.
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If overhealing was possible...
Will have to disagree on that tank aspect. In comics, when you have one character fighting a team, the one character doesn't lock onto a tank and avoid all the hits coming in from the rest of the team.
Unless your idea of tanking in comics is those scenes where Big Bad is beating on the weakest member of the team and another member of the team says some nasty insult to turn the Big Bad's attention away.
I didn't say there wasn't support. I said healers. Jean Grey, Invisible Woman, support type characters, but saying "Hang in there Captain America! You can do it!" is not support and for sure not a healer.
Now this isn't to say pure tankers/pure healers aren't valid builds, the problem is, people want to cater to them.
"My holy trinity built Tanker and Healer aren't NEEDED! So make content where they are or nerf the others so they're needed!" is not a good reason to do it.
People can build their dedicated Tanker or Healer, play their dedicated Tanker and Healer, and they don't need anyone to need them to do so.
This is true...and I'll admit...my main reason for wanting to "tank" in CO is because it's much more iconic looking to be going toe to toe with the big bad instead of punching them in the back.
Besides...most players in this game, or at least the ones I team with, simply do not need a "tank" to help them stay alive.
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True. But it's more iconic looking to actually beable to DPS them at the same time, instead of love tapping them.
You basically have to also be dps as a tank in order to hold threat in this game.
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I didn't say Vitality didn't have that strength. What I'm saying, is to have a tanker type character in the general term of Tankers, it means your damage is suckie, you just keep aggro, you rely on others to do the actual damage.
If you're relying on others to do the damage for you, as you hold their attention, because you can't do that much damage, as you're a classic Tanker, that's not very iconic.
Yeah. It's a good thing that Champions Online is the kind of game where tanks (the ones actually using defensive passives) can one-shot NPCs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yes, because most of the time when a big bad is beating on the weakest member it is usually because the weakest member threw out some sort of distractions or insults (aka Taunting) to get the big bad's attention purposefully. It's almost always the same scenario, person needs to activate Deus Ex scenario, small, weak guy volunteers to distract (aka tank), guy usually hurls insults, shoots powers, whatever gets big bad attention, while guy needed to activate Deus Ex mechanic goes into effect.
It's not hard to see if you stop believing that roles don't exist in any medium when they are plain as day. Games just put them down to their most basic because recreating those specific mechanics, given players not wanting to do specific things or how the developers intend for them, would be rather difficult to impossible.
Wholeheartedly disagree. While not all scenarios should require it, the toughest scenarios should require team effort. In the grand scheme of a game like this that means roles. It isn't hard to see that the weakest link Champions has right now is teaming, and making it even less of a variable might as well stop calling Champions an MMO. It is not evil nor is it bad to actually encourage teaming, and teaming that requires coordination and effort isn't bad either.
Being a tank doesn't mean your damage is sucky. However, pouring all your super stat points into one super stat hurts your over all damage in the end. it's viable but still hurts you in the long run of character building.
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They distract, for a second or two, they don't keep the enemies attention like TANKERS in games are meant/wanted to do.
Spidey, ultimate taunter, might get a taunt in that turns the enemies attention away long enough for Wolverine to stab them, but it's not long enough for Wolverine to continuously stab him.
And those saying they want real tanks, are usually saying they want full undivided attention.
You are trying to throw game mechanics in too much. Again the game can't simulate the fact that they do tank it, by either dodging or getting out of the way or just leading the big bad down the corridor. In short, you are kind of being narrow minded in the whole idea what constitutes tanking. There is more to tanking than being a damage sponge, and if CO actually had an engine for it, there would undoubtedly be dodging and actually avoiding big hits instead of what we have currently as just being a damage sponge. Frankly, if I were to redesign the system sitting there and taking it like a huge portion of the player base thinks we should do would actually be a bad idea.
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That's because this is a discussion about game mechanics. To make it possible to keep an enemies attention more.
I'd say what we have now is closer to comics, as it's much more possible for the enemy to turn their attention back and forth, instead of on one character the whole time.
People are wanting the damage sponge play style. That's what they're asking for when they ask for no more Tank/Dps combos.
Funny, I did it just fine on my Defiance tank toon simply with a single CC power and a single CS PBAoE power without any real focus on DPS, in almost every alert and team-based mission I've ever been in.
EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention that I was also using the Bulwark spec in Hybrid role.
I've found that I actually hold threat easier in Hybrid using Bulwark than in the Tank role.
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