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So Cryptic, how are we going to survive after the dodge nerf?

flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
edited November 2013 in Champions Online Discussion
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'NUFF SAID.
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  • wrathsoul1wrathsoul1 Posts: 677 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    No, CO is not a trinity game. All players have access to mitigation, damage, and healing to effective levels. A "Healer" can get enough survivability to stand up to cosmic level enemies, and a "Tank" can get heals, both self and targeted, that heal for thousands of effective HPS.

    Survival is the only requirement for completing content, the only DPS throttles are avoidable by any role equally. A trinity game segragates each mechanic, heal, damage, and mitigation, to create a team dynamic. If you have mitigation, you need to find someone with damage, or you're not going to pass the DPS check. If you don't have heals, mitigation is going to fall, and you're going to have a party wipe. Such a thing doesn't exist here.

    As to the OP, "How are we going to survive after the dodge nerf?" easy, pick a defensive passive and pretend the change never happened. You wont notice a diminished ability to complete content unless you're PFF or regen, and maybe not even then.

    Or you get Lifedrain as one of your powers.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Did i break interwebs?
    ....
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    It seems i can hijack all the top posts from this thread!!!!
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  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited November 2013
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    Use [Eruption] then. :3
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    There are tank, support, and dps roles. There are tank, support, and dps passives. Just because you can make a tanky dps or a tank with group healing doesn't mean it isn't based on trinity. Under it all is still the trinity system based on dps, tanks, and support.

    Bosses are still attracted to those who generate the most threat or have a high threat spike. There are builds for making tanks that use offensive passives, but it's still a tank. The point is to be the aggro hog so that those squish dpsers don't die.

    The lines may be blurred, but trinity is what CO is based on.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Cause as far as I can tell, the dodge nerf is also removing all defensive passives from the game, so how are we supposed to make a high survivability character if having high survivability is more important to us than doing high damage?

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

    >:|

    /angrycustomerwhoisleavingyou4evar
  • secksegaisecksegai Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    I sit back and laugh. It's not like there was ever a point in time that dodge gear didn't exist and people didn't go crazy for dodge. Oh wait....

    Also, CO is actually a trinity game. It pushes the boundaries of a traditional trinity, but it's still there.

    Remember when Tak first started dropping dodge/avoid gear and it became all the rage?
    You know, something worthwhile other than the DA?

    Remember when we didn't have bosses who could hit you for over 80k? Grav isn't the only one ;).


    Remember when people spent plenty of time farming freon elite for blues or blasting colossi endlessly in a mega destroid?


    Remember when we actually had a crafting system where you could create different items of actual value?

    Remember when people didn't have to gamble to get the top end gear?


    You can sit back and laugh, but you're only deluding yourself if you think the changes aren't going to have a significant impact. Whenever you make changes that revolve around money, a gaming company has to be very weary of what it may entail. Legion gear and lockbox supply/demand dropped a ton just by showcasing the justice gear and initial dodge/avoid numbers on pts.

    We don't know what will happen when it hits live, but you will notice a change after.
  • gfnotaku1gfnotaku1 Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    *Passive aggressive response on how you're overreacting*
    This post is brought to you by:
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Gross oversimplification.

    The dodge nerf is gonna hurt quarry, which is designed as a hybrid. The dodge nerf is also seemingly by design going to do a lot to hurt the hybrid concept which has been a strong point for the game since launch. There are defensive passives, yeah. And I like that they're gonna be more useful. I'm happy we might even see a healer in the wild that actually serves a purpose. However, it's fallacious to say that a chunk of the player base isn't gonna take a huge hit and a few concepts are going to be flat out ruined. And most of them are middle of the road hybrids. In my case, it's the specific niche I have always built for, and my specific style. I *hate* tanking. I get bored with healing. But glass cannons are freaking lame, too.

    Make no mistake, I don't have issue with a small dodge nerf. I take issue with a large one, though, if it makes my specific play style completely invalid.

    I'm not concerned about survival. I'm concerned about taking not just a hit to my survivability that makes me a bit more fragile, but in fact such a hit that my favorite style of play is made completely invalid. Will I adapt for a while? Sure, I don't need dodge to build. Will it keep me playing in the long run? I'm hesitant to say yes, because with how things are right now? I've made my last alt. There are only so many non-dodge tricks you can use to make a survivable hybrid.

    If we're being forced into trinity style play, I'll get just as bored here as I did in every other game that forced me to trinity. I came to CO and stayed *specifically* because of the strength of the hybrid game here. And I'm not saying I want to be a god. But it's *always* been possible to off tank with an offensive passive. If that stops, I will too.

    edit: sidenote. If we don't get a gear unbind, there will be chaos. Guaranteed. But that's known. I'm gonna take this a step further and mention that I've got devices specifically to draw aggro and nail things to the ground, on my main. A pestilence toon, that will always stay pestilence. So... Do I get an unbind of those because she's taking a nerf that makes her now incapable of tanking? Because part of what makes her function right now is dodge/bcr. Not all, but part.

    Or, is this a nerf that rendered my devices useless without compensation, when I *just* reequipped them a month or 2 ago?
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I sit back and laugh. It's not like there was ever a point in time that dodge gear didn't exist and people didn't go crazy for dodge. Oh wait....

    Also, CO is actually a trinity game. It pushes the boundaries of a traditional trinity, but it's still there.
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  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    I sit back and laugh. It's not like there was ever a point in time that dodge gear didn't exist and people didn't go crazy for dodge. Oh wait....

    Also, CO is actually a trinity game. It pushes the boundaries of a traditional trinity, but it's still there.

    No, CO is not a trinity game. All players have access to mitigation, damage, and healing to effective levels. A "Healer" can get enough survivability to stand up to cosmic level enemies, and a "Tank" can get heals, both self and targeted, that heal for thousands of effective HPS.

    Survival is the only requirement for completing content, the only DPS throttles are avoidable by any role equally. A trinity game segragates each mechanic, heal, damage, and mitigation, to create a team dynamic. If you have mitigation, you need to find someone with damage, or you're not going to pass the DPS check. If you don't have heals, mitigation is going to fall, and you're going to have a party wipe. Such a thing doesn't exist here.

    As to the OP, "How are we going to survive after the dodge nerf?" easy, pick a defensive passive and pretend the change never happened. You wont notice a diminished ability to complete content unless you're PFF or regen, and maybe not even then.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    secksegai wrote: »
    You can sit back and laugh, but you're only deluding yourself if you think the changes aren't going to have a significant impact. Whenever you make changes that revolve around money, a gaming company has to be very weary of what it may entail. Legion gear and lockbox supply/demand dropped a ton just by showcasing the justice gear and initial dodge/avoid numbers on pts.

    We don't know what will happen when it hits live, but you will notice a change after.

    CO is extremely easy and there is no reason what-so-ever to get legion gear. People are getting it because it's the cool thing to do, not because there is any need for it. Yes, I am going to laugh at people flipping out over a needed nerf that probably won't have much impact on being able to breeze through content.

    You don't have to gamble to get top end gear, you can simple not bother. There is no reason to get it other than being able to tell everyone how awesome you are.

    I'm not deluding myself, I have a different perspective on the issue.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I'd call the game a trinity hybrid. If each player in the team is built with an ideal mix of damage mitigation, DPS and aggro mangement for example, then the trinity isn't obvious. If there are players in the team who build with a focus on certain role specialties while compromising on certain build aspects like survivability and DPS, then the trinity applies.

    The most glaring issue with Dodge seems to be that anyone with an offensive passive can rely on dodge for superior damage mitigation if built, stat'ed and geared right. I don't think the design intent for offensive passives was ever meant for a player to maintain survivability comparable to what a defensive passive allows for and yet still benefit from a huge DPS buff. It's so stupidly easy to get your dodge up to the mid 40's to 50% and your avoidance to the mid 60's to 70 or almost 70% while using the right offensive passive. 40 - 50% Dodge already allows you to dodge pretty often. I know I'm able to do that easily with Way of the Warrior. That's like having Lightning Reflexes but taking a minor cut to Dodge and Avoidance for the damage buff that more than makes up for the cut. I'm able to do that with Quarry, but with just slightly lower avoidance base percentages, excluding the buff from Audacity stacks.

    Even without using an offensive passive, when I was using Defiance it was so easy to get my Dodge to 40% and Avoidance at around 53%. By the way, I'm getting all these percentages at level 40 so diminishing returns apply.

    Add to the fact that Masterful Dodge's cooldown is so stupidly easy to cut down to a below a minute (I've gotten it down to 40s) with just Heroic utility gear and a level 4 or 5 Impact Prism mod, not counting the 15s of active time (making my actual cooldown 25s), Dodge is made so powerful that it's not even funny. Hands up how many of you out there are relying on nothing but Masterful Dodge + Bountiful Chi Resurgence + Resurgent Reiki as the only mitigation powers to support your Dodge builds?

    Is it really any surprise that they decided to nerf Dodge?

    As for working against build diversity and pigeon-hole'ing people into more trinity-centric builds, I have no idea, we'll have to see when the changes hit live.
  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    CO is extremely easy and there is no reason what-so-ever to get legion gear. People are getting it because it's the cool thing to do, not because there is any need for it. Yes, I am going to laugh at people flipping out over a needed nerf that probably won't have much impact on being able to breeze through content.

    You don't have to gamble to get top end gear, you can simple not bother. There is no reason to get it other than being able to tell everyone how awesome you are.

    I'm not deluding myself, I have a different perspective on the issue.

    I kind of have the same attitude.

    Legion's not necessary, but it does help a bit. Sure, some of my toons will take a bit of a hit from the nerf, but that's life isn't it? Stuff changes and those who fail to adapt get swept away with the time. However, unlike most changes, we do have a say in what happens here. Make your voice heard in the PTS forums if you can because howling in zone chat or custom channels is going to do jack all.
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    secksegai wrote: »
    Remember when Tak first started dropping dodge/avoid gear and it became all the rage?
    You know, something worthwhile other than the DA?

    Remember when we didn't have bosses who could hit you for over 80k? Grav isn't the only one ;).


    Remember when people spent plenty of time farming freon elite for blues or blasting colossi endlessly in a mega destroid?


    Remember when we actually had a crafting system where you could create different items of actual value?

    Remember when people didn't have to gamble to get the top end gear?
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    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • agentnx5agentnx5 Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    No, CO is not a trinity game. All players have access to mitigation, damage, and healing to effective levels.

    False. "Effective levels" is subjective in this sense.

    I for one aspire to maximize my characters' powers whilst staying in a visual theme consistent with their lore (aka. theme building with synergies).

    Also, I dislike nerfing of things that have come to be assumed as axiomatic because it's taken Cryptic OVER A FREAKING YEAR to address. That's very underhanded from a developer consistency standpoint, and something I really do not like about Cryptic as a company (there are things I do like about them, but that's my most hated thing they do by far).
    A "Healer" can get enough survivability to stand up to cosmic level enemies, and a "Tank" can get heals, both self and targeted, that heal for thousands of effective HPS.

    Meh... Irrelevant. Time and situational context dependent.

    For example, I can say I have hit over a billion damage in this game on a single character, but that's not all at once. You speak as if these thing can be assumed, but the truth is that different builds are better at different things and the results show.

    More importantly, it's about fun first & foremost.

    Yes, there should be a balance. I have already expressed my thoughts on the balance and where gear fits in that here. I suggest/recommend you read that post in it's entirety for comprehension (don't skim).

    As to the OP, "How are we going to survive after the dodge nerf?" easy, pick a defensive passive and pretend the change never happened. You wont notice a diminished ability to complete content unless you're PFF or regen, and maybe not even then.

    Mostly true.

    PFF + IDF = very strong when you rank up your superstats high enough. Justice gear + Vigilante gear should really help make some super-amazing PFF tanks viable, regardless of which superstat you choose.

    The biggest change for defense will be an increased emphasis on HP, self-healing, and damage mitigation/subtraction (Invuln or IDF).

    sterga wrote: »
    I sit back and laugh. It's not like there was ever a point in time that dodge gear didn't exist and people didn't go crazy for dodge. Oh wait....

    Also, CO is actually a trinity game. It pushes the boundaries of a traditional trinity, but it's still there.

    Sterga makes some good points here.

    That said, two things:
    • This game may have healer, tank, and DPS roles and structuring but you can and should be able to make anything you want in-between with freeform. Not all builds are as strong as others, depends on the synergies and what's overpowered/underpowered. You're fundamentally correct Sterga but you're oversimplifying it by not elaborating on the flexibility available.

    • Archetypes are not going to be able to adapt to the changes the way Freeforms can. As such, I kind of wish we didn't have premium archetypes (instead all archetypes are "free trials" and if you want to be freeform you HAVE TO pay). My wish was kind of messed up the day they released the Freeform slot, now matters are confusing. I cannot predict all the unforseen consequences to archetypes from these dodge/avoid gear changes.

    • People who are saying they can't or won't adapt (SeCKSEgai, Gradii, etc.) are honestly beginning to grate on my nerves with the amount of QQ-ing going on. We've had more catastrophic changes going on than this people... and the game is still ticking along every day. Saying we (by peer competition) have to focus on dodge/avoid gear to be effective in combat defensively doesn't promote build diversity either... In that Sterga makes a good point -- for at one time before On Alert we didn't focus on dodge/avoid nearly as much as we do now, and we still got by (both in PvE and PvP).
    sterga wrote: »
    CO is extremely easy and there is no reason what-so-ever to get legion gear. People are getting it because it's the cool thing to do, not because there is any need for it.


    False.

    Case 1: PvP. If you are behind your competition, you are inferior.

    Case 2: PvE farming. Appropriately min/maxed builds will mean more efficient farming. Waste less time --> get wealthier easier --> have more power in the game's economy and get what you want while the have-not's scrounge for scraps. Yes, wealth is a factor to consider in MMOs, and has an impact on fun.

    Case 3: Build synergies. Sometimes you DO need that extra few points to make that power work correctly. That extra second of cooldown reduction. That extra 10% of cost reduction. That extra 500 HP. Something. It DOES matter when you're trying to get a build to work in a fun and effective way. Keyword being fun!

    sterga wrote: »
    Yes, I am going to laugh at people flipping out over a needed nerf that probably won't have much impact on being able to breeze through content.

    A callous statement combined with "probably won't" seems to indicate you are not fully thinking through all the effects this might have... There are some unforeseen consequences, even in addition to the ones I can forsee. And even though some of the forseen consequences are a "needed nerf" and justifable, that doesn't mean the unforseen ones are not negligible.

    I don't agree with the doom hysteria either, but that doesn't mean I'm dismissing the concerns raised by SeCKSEgai and others.

    Gross oversimplification.

    The dodge nerf is gonna hurt quarry, which is designed as a hybrid. The dodge nerf is also seemingly by design going to do a lot to hurt the hybrid concept which has been a strong point for the game since launch. There are defensive passives, yeah. And I like that they're gonna be more useful. I'm happy we might even see a healer in the wild that actually serves a purpose. However, it's fallacious to say that a chunk of the player base isn't gonna take a huge hit and a few concepts are going to be flat out ruined. And most of them are middle of the road hybrids. In my case, it's the specific niche I have always built for, and my specific style. I *hate* tanking. I get bored with healing. But glass cannons are freaking lame, too.

    Make no mistake, I don't have issue with a small dodge nerf. I take issue with a large one, though, if it makes my specific play style completely invalid.

    I'm not concerned about survival. I'm concerned about taking not just a hit to my survivability that makes me a bit more fragile, but in fact such a hit that my favorite style of play is made completely invalid. Will I adapt for a while? Sure, I don't need dodge to build. Will it keep me playing in the long run? I'm hesitant to say yes, because with how things are right now? I've made my last alt. There are only so many non-dodge tricks you can use to make a survivable hybrid.

    If we're being forced into trinity style play, I'll get just as bored here as I did in every other game that forced me to trinity. I came to CO and stayed *specifically* because of the strength of the hybrid game here. And I'm not saying I want to be a god. But it's *always* been possible to off tank with an offensive passive. If that stops, I will too.

    I'm in strong agreement with this post. QFT indeed!

    A strong point of this game is about being the hero YOU want to be. Customization. Powers, appearance, gear, nemesis, etc.

    There are areas this could be improved, but making the game

    edit: sidenote. If we don't get a gear unbind, there will be chaos. Guaranteed.

    Highlighted, bolded, and font size increased for emphasis. Are you listening Cryptic? You could mitigate a lot of angst over this change if you did that, a ton.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Allowing players with Legion gear to unbind them sounds reasonable. On top of that a one-time opportunity to unslot all mods for free also may be reasonable.

    Crying foul and murder due to Breastplates of Elusiveness taking a hit to dodge chance doesn't, considering that they're not cutting down on the total number of mod slots so they won't be entirely nerfed at least. I doubt that the decrease in dodge chance would break their builds.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Only people that will notice any difference is the PvPers. This isnt as major a nerf as people are making out.

    But will add this. Trinity players can kiss my butt.
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  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    Only people that will notice any difference is the PvPers. This isnt as major a nerf as people are making out.

    But will add this. Trinity players can kiss my butt.

    When I moved my Archer onto live, bumped him to 40, and swapped all his primary gear for the 4-slot justice stuff (used him to test fire and ice) and R7 Mods, I noticed I had about the same combined Dodge/avoid as on live. For reference, my live character was 35 and had random blue and green gear with 2 slots. Total, between all three primaries. So, Yay for grinding 4-slot gear to be about as strong as I am now with random crap gear!!!

    People with no other sources of dodge, but gear, will see their dodge rate cut in half or more. That will be noticable, and is major.
    agentnx5 wrote: »
    False. "Effective levels" is subjective in this sense.

    I for one aspire to maximize my characters' powers whilst staying in a visual theme consistent with their lore (aka. theme building with synergies).

    That's cool how you build and all, I'm the same way, but "Access to Effective levels" is -not- subjective. Build how you want, you still have access to everything, and it isn't neutered because of role. Just because you don't pick it, doesn't mean you didn't have access. A trinity game would simply not allow access.
    agentnx5 wrote: »
    Meh... Irrelevant. Time and situational context dependent.

    For example, I can say I have hit over a billion damage in this game on a single character, but that's not all at once. You speak as if these thing can be assumed, but the truth is that different builds are better at different things and the results show.

    What?

    What does someone using a character in the support or tank role to solo teleiosaurus/Qwyjibo/grond/kigatilik/mega-d have to do with you doing a billion damage over the life of a character?

    Of course builds are important, but when the top-end builds using Support and Defensive passives are quite capable of doing things that users Offensive passives cant, that's an issue. And I don't mean magnitude of numbers, I mean completing specific tasks. There are things that require a minimum level of survivability to do (or a freakish ability to break enemy AI, but that's cheating). This will cut the ability for the offensive passives that could reach that minimum, while still permitting many Support and Defense passives to reach that point. Which is why I consider it a dev enforced bias.

    If they started throwing DPS checks everywhere, and I mean everywhere, that couldn't be reached without an offensive passive, then I'd have a lot less to compalin about.
    agentnx5 wrote: »
    Yes, there should be a balance. I have already expressed my thoughts on the balance and where gear fits in that here. I suggest/recommend you read that post in it's entirety for comprehension (don't skim).

    A lot of that stuff I've said myself. Though I think I give gear a more important role.

    Put defense on it's own layer of mitigation, and up the defense gained from gear (or to avoid silly issues, increase the resistance per point of defense and reduce the defense gained from spec trees proportionally)

    Add a spendable ability point that you gain if you have a Growth offense primary or health defense primary item equipped

    Things like the above would go a long way toward ending the role dominance of crit and dodge gear.

    This change though, it isn't balance.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2013

    People with no other sources of dodge, but gear, will see their dodge rate cut in half or more. That will be noticable, and is major.

    Dodge rate is so high even when the dodge rate is halved its still viable. Unless your a serious PVPer going full wack at another PVPer this drop in dodge rate shouldn't really bork things that badly.

    No what this nerf is doing is making me less likely to ever team with anyone ever again. This is down to a few players cry crying that there is no way to force people to team in this game. Cryptic thinks by screwing with gear players will team more often. All it will do is cause players to tell trinity lovers to bugger off, which they should.
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    agentnx5 wrote: »
    Archetypes are not going to be able to adapt to the changes the way Freeforms can.

    I haven't had any problems levelling my ATs up to 40. I never felt challenged or overwhelmed. Heirloom gear doesn't have dodge last I checked.
    Case 1: PvP. If you are behind your competition, you are inferior.

    I doubt most of the people who buy legion gear PvP. And I will say nothing else.
    Case 2: PvE farming. Appropriately min/maxed builds will mean more efficient farming. Waste less time --> get wealthier easier --> have more power in the game's economy and get what you want while the have-not's scrounge for scraps. Yes, wealth is a factor to consider in MMOs, and has an impact on fun.

    I have no idea how anyone can't have or easily obtain money in this game no matter what crappy gear they use. I'm pretty lazy about farming but always manage to end up with plenty of Globals.
    Case 3: Build synergies. Sometimes you DO need that extra few points to make that power work correctly. That extra second of cooldown reduction. That extra 10% of cost reduction. That extra 500 HP. Something. It DOES matter when you're trying to get a build to work in a fun and effective way. Keyword being fun!

    I have some pretty messed up characters gear wise and I can still slaughter things with them. My main was so far into diminishing returns that some of the r5 to r7 upgrades did nothing. I mean not even a 1% or 1 second change. 40 points in secondary stats had almost no change. I was tanking Warlord on my melee WotW toon long before I had any legion gear, r7 mods, or devices.

    Changing my stats around did more for my toon than getting legion gear did.
    A callous statement combined with "probably won't" seems to indicate you are not fully thinking through all the effects this might have.

    Does that mean I haven't thought about things or does it mean I'm admitting the possibility of being wrong? And yes, I am callous. If people are going to cry about such nonsense on the forums, I'm going to share too.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    If people are going to cry about such nonsense on the forums, I'm going to share too.


    QFT

    The characters with really high-end dodge will have a reduction in power. They will no longer be able to continuously attack without using block or sometimes moving out of enemy range. They will no longer be able to solo the hardest enemies in the game.

    Good.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    People with no other sources of dodge, but gear, will see their dodge rate cut in half or more. That will be noticable, and is major.

    Which makes sense since gear isn't supposed to be a replacement for dodge gotten from powers or specs.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    QFT

    The characters with really high-end dodge will have a reduction in power. They will no longer be able to continuously attack without using block or sometimes moving out of enemy range. They will no longer be able to solo the hardest enemies in the game.

    Good.

    This is what I a talking about earlier . What does it matter if someone with high dodge solos Mega D or The Super Zombies how does that effect you or me or Mick down the road. It doesnt.

    I do not care if some random I do not know can solo Endbringer I also do not care if they CAN'T solo Endbringer and a lot of people are going to be less likely to help others if this nerf goes through. Just out of spite.

    The solo Free Formers will just build DPS Tanks and carry on as normal saying DEF is getting a buff. Its the AT players I feel bad for their only means of keeping up with FF's is being removed. AT players are going to be FORCED to team and thats a bad thing for CO.
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • pallihwtfpallihwtf Posts: 677 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    How confusing thread.

    these forums borked mang.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    @Pallih in game
  • wrathsoul1wrathsoul1 Posts: 677 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    This is what I a talking about earlier . What does it matter if someone with high dodge solos Mega D or The Super Zombies how does that effect you or me or Mick down the road. It doesnt.

    I do not care if some random I do not know can solo Endbringer I also do not care if they CAN'T solo Endbringer and a lot of people are going to be less likely to help others if this nerf goes through. Just out of spite.

    The solo Free Formers will just build DPS Tanks and carry on as normal saying DEF is getting a buff. Its the AT players I feel bad for their only means of keeping up with FF's is being removed. AT players are going to be FORCED to team and thats a bad thing for CO.

    And since the only 4 good ATs are behind a paywall...
  • twg042370twg042370 Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    I have no idea how anyone can't have or easily obtain money in this game no matter what crappy gear they use. I'm pretty lazy about farming but always manage to end up with plenty of Globals.

    And nothing worth spending them on.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    wrathsoul1 wrote: »
    And since the only 4 good ATs are behind a paywall...

    And there we have it people the real reason why Cryptic is breaking dodge gear.

    That and they most likely have a tank with ALL THE DODGE in the works and a lockbox to go with it......

    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    In the beginning, players depended on a single piece of gear to survive. They were all like this.

    Then, the devs said they would make some adjustments. The players scoffed. The player vs dev confrontation looked like this.

    These players tried to play after the adjustments, and it looked like this.

    But really, even with the adjustments, everything not named Gravitar, Kenina or *cough* Frosticus *cough* is still gonna get treated like this.

    Why? Because we're heroes. That's just what we do.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I'll just mention this again.

    I have been pvping and pveing with characters from whom I have removed all dodge gear. In most cases they also were not using dodge passives. These characters include freeforms as well as archetypes.

    I can assure you that while there was a noticeable difference (which, of course, there should be.. otherwise what would be the point of the dodge adjustment), it was not game breaking... far from it in fact. The only change I noticed was that on characters where I could previously just spam my attacks without worrying about taking damage, I now had to actually use stuff like heals or blocks. This was on freeforms.


    For archetypes, the change was practically nonexistent. My squishy archetypes were squishy before.. they were still squishy after I removed their dodge. I still had to actually do something to keep myself alive; luckily, there are many things I can do to keep myself alive (none of which involve devices or any weird tricks that aren't available to everyone).


    Most of my archetypes didn't have a basis for comparison, because the majority of my archetypes have never had a piece of dodge gear slotted because I simply didn't see the point. Yes... I have played archetypes without dodge and did just fine. In fact, all my characters (both AT and FF) leveled all the way to 40 without dodge gear, and they were just fine.

    Since someone will ask, I will go ahead and define what "doing just fine" means: It means I was able to complete the content, and the only times I died were when I screwed up and didn't react in time to save my butt. For my tankier toons, it meant wading into the enemy like a berzerker and thrashing them with wild abandon.


    Yeah, in Gravitar my squishy archetypes weren't doing so hot...but they werent doing so hot in there with dodge gear either. But hey, that shouldn't be a surprise... Gravitar was made for Freeforms looking for a challenge after all (my squishy FFs still did fine in Gravitar without their dodge gear).



    That's why all this panic over the dodge change doesn't make sense to me. When actually tested in game, a complete lack of dodge isn't game breaking... so how could a reduction of dodge be game breaking?

    And if the change isn't game breaking... that means all that dodge-based Legion gear people bought is still worth using... so what are they really complaining about?
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    everything [snip] is still gonna get treated like this.

    I wonder if it's possible to build a single character that has all those attacks.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • wrathsoul1wrathsoul1 Posts: 677 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    That and they most likely have a tank with ALL THE DODGE in the works and a lockbox to go with it......

    They already have a tank with all the Dodge.
  • cyronecyrone Posts: 1,028 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    But really, even with the adjustments, everything not named Gravitar, Kenina or *cough* Frosticus *cough* is still gonna get treated like this.

    Why? Because we're heroes. That's just what we do.

    That's me in a nutshell.
    download_zpsfcg5gnud.jpg
    "There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,443 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    How will I survive? I'll be dying and playing just as hard and as much as I did before, aka no changes, save for some of my toons who exploited the ever-loving out of dodge/avoidance. I'm just glad that when this comes to pass, I can hit someone who isn't using a tank passive and see their hp finally go down.
  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    That's why all this panic over the dodge change doesn't make sense to me. When actually tested in game, a complete lack of dodge isn't game breaking... so how could a reduction of dodge be game breaking?

    And if the change isn't game breaking... that means all that dodge-based Legion gear people bought is still worth using... so what are they really complaining about?

    Again, if you pay attention to what I'm saying, I'm not saying that the change is game breaking, I'm saying that the change:

    1. Doesn't fufil the intended goal of increasing build diversity

    2. Doesn't fufil the intended goal of making defense a more desireable stat to gear for (even nerfed 18%/55% dodge avoid from gear is better than 7% resist from defense)

    3. Says that if you pick a defensive passive, cool go aggro that double group of Tough rated alert mobs and kill them all, but offensive passive user...
    Mutombo.gif

    You said it yourself. Your tankier characters to act with wild abandon, enemies were NBD, but you actually dropped on your DPS characters. There shouldn't be that kind of gap between two characters, with similar investments in builds, facing enemies. If one says NBD and another is struggling and has to hit off powers perfectly, that demonstrates a -lack- of balance.

    I don't understand how you think that is balanced. I'm not saying that Offensive passives should be as nigh-unkillable as defensive passives, but they never were.. Quarry wasn't "slot this and tank Gravitar".

    Top end Offense builds should be able to perform at a level that matches the top end Support and Defense builds. There will be differences, Offense builds will take more damage, have to react faster, spend more power points on survival and in return see bigger yellow numbers, but they should be allowed a spot on the top tier.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I'm not saying that Offensive passives should be as nigh-unkillable as defensive passives, but they never were...

    They were/are actually. The game progressed to the point where using a defensive passive for anything other than theme was a complete waste of time and a detriment to any team. An offensive or support passive was always the better option. More benefits, higher DPS, same durability...yes, same durability. There was absolutely no reason to use a defensive passive which is why nearly all of the better tank players I've run with in game switched to things like WoTW because it made them a better tank. An offensive passive...made them a better tank for all of the aforementioned reasons. The only upside to the defensive passive currently is we get to pay less attention.
    ________________________________________________
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    They were/are actually. The game progressed to the point where using a defensive passive for anything other than theme was a complete waste of time and a detriment to any team. An offensive or support passive was always the better option. More benefits, higher DPS, same durability...yes, same durability. There was absolutely no reason to use a defensive passive which is why nearly all of the better tank players I've run with in game switched to things like WoTW because it made them a better tank. An offensive passive...made them a better tank for all of the aforementioned reasons. The only upside to the defensive passive currently is we get to pay less attention.


    This.

    Offensive passive toons in the DPS role should not be tough. They should do a lot of damage, and be squishy. If you don't want to be squishy . . . don't pick that combo.
    ___________________________________________________________

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  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    They were/are actually. The game progressed to the point where using a defensive passive for anything other than theme was a complete waste of time and a detriment to any team. An offensive or support passive was always the better option. More benefits, higher DPS, same durability...yes, same durability. There was absolutely no reason to use a defensive passive which is why nearly all of the better tank players I've run with in game switched to things like WoTW because it made them a better tank. An offensive passive...made them a better tank for all of the aforementioned reasons. The only upside to the defensive passive currently is we get to pay less attention.

    If they have the same durability how does taking a defensive passive allow a player to pay less attention?

    Correct Answer: It doesn't. Offensive passives do not have the same, again...not the same level of durability.

    The benefit of a defensive passive is space. Less space taken, in builds, on supplementary survival powers, more breathing room to respond to incoming DPS, and most importantly the ability to stand in the insta-gib space of cosmics and legendaries, allowing for melee attacks without three or four runs back to the champions building from that damn bookstore.

    I've heard multiple people on these forums claim defiance can get more DPS than WoTW in the same role. You even responded to one of those posts yourself without arguing that they were wrong and WotW is simply more damage and same survivability.

    It's a horribly missed opportunity. There's a dev looking at gear, right now, and instead of making bad gear good he's going hammer to hand on the good gear, and not even managing to break the gear's role dominance.
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    this is not the case kenpo. I know for a fact ALL my offensive passive toons are MUCH squishier than my defensive passive ones. even the ones using quarry. stop letting your Uber build skills make you lose sight of the larger picture.

    The problem with your argument is that it doesn't address the point itself - that the offensive passives are functioning in such a way as to outperform the defensive passives in their own element. I understand that you may not experience this, for whatever reason, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that when used to their full extent, a defensive passive can't compete with an offensive passive for the very purpose it was designed. What's more, each power does not exist in a vacuum, and when talking about maximizing potential, uber builds are how you test; you have to break to know the limitations, and the limitations of the defensive powers are such that in order to tank you need higher output on damage, which means offensive passive, because if not, the dedicated DPS will destroy any chance you have at keeping threat (just to use the tanks as an example).

    Uber builds slant the bell curve, but that doesn't change the effectiveness of a power in and of itself, especially not in a system that is specifically designed to let players mix and match whatever they want.

    The next point is this - Let's you're correct, and all offensive passive toons are squishier that defensive passive toons. What is the practical impact of this?

    If D passives can absorb 1 million points of damage every second, and O passives can only take 800k, but nothing in the game can surpass 500k, does it really matter anymore? They've both surpassed the threshold where the amount doesn't change the effectiveness, and other factors are taken into account. Using the tank example again, this means DPS becomes more important in terms of retaining threat, and for a tank squishy-ness becomes a non-issue.
  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    pion01 wrote: »

    If D passives can absorb 1 million points of damage every second, and O passives can only take 800k, but nothing in the game can surpass 500k, does it really matter anymore? They've both surpassed the threshold where the amount doesn't change the effectiveness, and other factors are taken into account. Using the tank example again, this means DPS becomes more important in terms of retaining threat, and for a tank squishy-ness becomes a non-issue.

    The problem is, passives don't work like this. Quarry didn't absorb a hypothetical 800k, rather it adds 18% points to your chance to dodge. If you say a quarry user got to 100% chance to dodge with high 70% avoidance, then that was gear + EM doing most of the work, and available to any other build as well.

    Any time spent healing, or hitting EM, or refreshing whatever other buffs were needed to reach stated survivability levels, would be time not dealing damage, and time a defensive passive user could spend attacking.

    The practical impact is experience. One character will spend time using defensive buffs, and rocking some serious damage when they do attack, while the other will wade in, hulk smash, and give zero ***** that day.

    Also, damage is not absorbed by powers like Quarry. If you don't respond to incoming damage with healing, you will pull off an epic faceplant. The point and frequency in which you have to heal is effected drastically by passive selection, and defensive passives (generally) have to heal a great deal less than offensive passives. Meaning their time is free for other activities, like putting boot to face.
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I was being general because of the myriad ways to mitigate and etc., but given you're quarry example (depending on power set and whatever) the amount of time required to heal back is almost minimal when compared to the damage output increase provided by quarry stacks (and whatever else). That was my point about powers not existing in a vacuum.

    There's no D passive that is set and forget to such an extent that your damage output boost from an O passive is outdone by consistent damage provided by "giving no *****" and "putting boot to face." Especially when coupled with stance and gear.
  • zedbrightlander1zedbrightlander1 Posts: 3,797 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    11_11_09_EAS_test_03.jpg
    5357442538_OMFG_answer_4_xlarge.jpeg
    image1.jpg
    we_182cc1_1273038.jpg

    'NUFF SAID.
    Are you the only one who can do that, FF?
    ZedBlock-200.jpg
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited November 2013
    gradii wrote: »
    lets put it this way. my non quarry offensive passive toons? they faceplant alot. in general, some exceptions.

    I have so many characters that have offensive passives that are not quarry, and I never build characters to their maximum potential, and I have never gone past heroic gear. They do not "faceplant a lot."

    Honestly if you're going to go to these extremes, I'm going to flat out say it. Maybe the problem exists between the chair and the keyboard.

    I'm currently playing a character that uses Unstoppable as his passive, has 50% dodge chance with 20% avoidance, and I don't faceplant a lot. I can hold my own against alert bosses, do UNITY without batting an eyelash, I don't even have Roomsweeper, I chose to take Havoc Stomp because I dislike punching left-handed (see, this is the kind of decisions I make in the game; BAD ONES), and I have not found any content that is "too hard" or that makes me "faceplant a lot."

    Furthermore, I've done UNITY dailies on characters with NO GEAR AT ALL. Right, not just "No dodge gear" but none at all. It sucks, it's hard, but it's doable. Even then I don't faceplant a lot. (In case you're wondering, characters who were using Heirlooms, stripped them to go to an alt, so they were left with no gear).

    To top it off, none of these characters were built as tanks in any way. Only last month did I ever start statting for Con (yes, really). I've never stacked dodge and avoidance like it was going out of style (hey, now it is!), and like I said before, I've never made a totally maximized build. Rank 5 mods or lower, all the time.

    I dunno, maybe buy some potions if you're faceplanting that much.
    biffsig.jpg
  • forrksakesexcoforrksakesexco Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Hmm I already have a squishy DPS with no dodge to speak of... I made an electric form Dex/End/Ego build a while back and when it came to level 40 I decided to not bother trying to make it a dodge build. Instead I went for Breastplate of Defense and a green gem, greater defence = greater offence with best defence skill. This may start paying off a bit better with the changes!
    As to performance it does very nicely, having come first in several Clarence fests and number 5 in the recent Destroid fest, not bad for Heroic gear and level 5 mods. How well I do in fests depends a lot on whether I stay alive for the event - you waste a lot of time respawning.. Shrugs it's kinda exciting really!

    The only thing that really irritates me about the coming changes is that I have just finally converted one of my LR toons to a Quarry build...
    The phrase you are looking for is this...
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Again, if you pay attention to what I'm saying, I'm not saying that the change is game breaking, I'm saying that the change:

    1. Doesn't fufil the intended goal of increasing build diversity

    2. Doesn't fufil the intended goal of making defense a more desireable stat to gear for (even nerfed 18%/55% dodge avoid from gear is better than 7% resist from defense)

    3. Says that if you pick a defensive passive, cool go aggro that double group of Tough rated alert mobs and kill them all, but offensive passive user...

    1. It does, because right now there's no reason to pick a defensive passive except for giggles. Why gimp your damage output for survivability when you can just have high damage and survivability?

    2. I agree with this. In fact, this is one of the reasons I don't get why people are talking about their dodge gear being useless...so thanks for helping the point I'm making.

    3. No... it doesn't say that at all... and my tests without dodge gear prove that it doesn't.

    You said it yourself. Your tankier characters to act with wild abandon, enemies were NBD, but you actually dropped on your DPS characters. There shouldn't be that kind of gap between two characters, with similar investments in builds, facing enemies. If one says NBD and another is struggling and has to hit off powers perfectly, that demonstrates a -lack- of balance.

    I don't understand how you think that is balanced. I'm not saying that Offensive passives should be as nigh-unkillable as defensive passives, but they never were.. Quarry wasn't "slot this and tank Gravitar".

    Woah woah woah, how much selective reading did you have to engage in to come to the conclusion that I said that I dropped on my DPS characters? I didn't drop on my dps characters so long as I paid attention and used my powers. Yes, on my tank passive characters I didn't really have to pay attention, but the payoff was that my squishy characters could quickly nuke targets down like nothing; I only had to survive long enough for my damage to kill the targets, and because I had gone completely for offensive power that time was very short.
    Top end Offense builds should be able to perform at a level that matches the top end Support and Defense builds. There will be differences, Offense builds will take more damage, have to react faster, spend more power points on survival and in return see bigger yellow numbers, but they should be allowed a spot on the top tier.

    You don't seem to understand that this is going to be the case. My tests proved it. Go test for yourself... take your characters, remove their dodge gear, switch to offensive passives that don't use dodge, then go run some content. The trick here is don't just stand there and let them kill you and then come running back here saying "I DIED!", use everything you have available to survive and you'll find that it's going to be a lot more interesting and fun than it is now.

    If you do all that and you still die constantly... then... well... I'm a noob... and what would that make you? :/
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I just think we may have to fight a little "smarter" in some aspects, if dodge/avoid is not going to be especially fruitful for non dodge passive users anymore, offensive passive users will have to invest in some form of defense to keep themselves "up and running" if needed.

    Or simply use their Active Defensives and block more often.

    Not much in game can negate the effects of Ye Olde Block, this then may lead to the question should I have to block lots and still be able to call myself a DPS? Maybe not, but then it does give rise to a useful place for tanks and healers in challenging content.

    And before people jump at the ZOMGENFORCINGHOLITRINITI!! No. It's not, team content is meant to be...team content. A tank should be able to survive and tank, the healer shouldn't feel useless and the DPS should fully benefit and appreciate having the healer there for non rez purposes, not to say this isn't the case in some instances, but sometimes it can be a little disheartening going into alerts as a healer.

    As for normal content, trash mobs and alerts...they don't pose much of a threat. I don't like this nerf/fix at all, but I am just trying to see it from another perspective really.
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