While I don't agree with this round of further reductions (I think the last PTS iteration was just about perfect), I don't think this is the death knell to offensive passives (in general) that you (and others) seem to think it is.
Enemies haven't been buffed substantially since On Alert, except for the new bosses and the prevalence of Tough enemies in some types of Alerts.
Against that, you have higher stats, innate offense (now buffed), defense from gear and spec trees.
Offensive passives were usable before On Alert, and are still going to be usable after this. I would suggest they get reworked to make them more attractive than just "lets you use the Offensive Roles". But that's an ease of use/attractiveness change, not a "these have to be buffed or the average player can never survive using them" thing.
The main problem here is ATs. And again, my proposed solution to that is to open up Freeform to everyone, even non-subscribers, and leave ATs as "template" starting points.
The AT concept is too far in power from the Freeform concept to be able to exist and have things be balanced.
And preventing Free-to-play players from experiencing the most unique part of the game is a bad decision, in my opinion.
I still have the emails you sent me about the spec trees way back when
As far as passives go, the numbers I heard about before this latest patch were great and reasonable.
A legion agility was going for 2400 when I came back. Legion elusive was 1200. It took weeks for that price to even move, but it finally started hitting more accessible selling prices when the justice gear and dodge/avoid nerf was announced on PTS and the value crashed.
So in order to make new incoming gear or other stats appealing, they're taking one off the table. But in order to do that, anyone who ever payed a heavy pricetag is being shown that their investment, whether it be time or money, is not valued by the powers that be. God forbid I was a new player who never read the forums and had been buying keys galore. I know that very well happens, because I was that player in SWG who was caught off guard by their "upgrade". I'm fine with balance. But I am not seeing "balance".
As far as the AT issue goes, I'm in agreement. I think FF access was a strong motivator for subbing, but I've been willing to sub for the sake of tinting power colors alone on my ATs.
If everyone was given freeform access, then there would no longer be a need for special consideration of AT players. I already had to shelve several ATs as they were too much of a liability or too ineffective to be worth using.
That's a bug? From what I remember, Skarn's is supposed to remove most if not all possible buffs from the enemy (Passives, Illumination, everything but the energy toggles like FoTT, Concentration, Manipulation, etc.) in the order they were cast, so I'd see that as a fix. But then again, I've never really seen a list of "What Skarn's SHOULD and SHOULD NOT be removing as designed by the Devs", sooo.. *shrug*
If it's a bug, I hope it gets fixed quick like many of the ones the devs are tackling.
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Earlier today I decided to take one of my builds that I suspected would see a greater impact from the upcoming changes. This is the build, if you are curious. Seraphim passive, and relied on Dodge through gear, mods, and Dex spec tree.
Comparing "numbers" between current Live and the PTS, she goes from a little over 40% Dodge to 20% Dodge. So she lost just over half her Dodge skill.
I took this toon to MI and fought a bunch of level 41 VIPER thugs. I had no problem.
I'll keep testing a bit, but so far I feel all this fear over the Dodge changes is over inflated.
Earlier today I decided to take one of my builds that I suspected would see a greater impact from the upcoming changes. This is the build, if you are curious. Seraphim passive, and relied on Dodge through gear, mods, and Dex spec tree.
Comparing "numbers" between current Live and the PTS, she goes from a little over 40% Dodge to 20% Dodge. So she lost just over half her Dodge skill.
I took this toon to MI and fought a bunch of level 41 VIPER thugs. I had no problem.
I'll keep testing a bit, but so far I feel all this fear over the Dodge changes is over inflated.
I'm quite certain that most of the people freaking over it belong to a certain few SGs. Honestly, I forsee this will end with everyone accepting it after realizing the changes weren't as bad as it's being made out to be. It's like the end of the world conspiracies people do
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wait they made the dodge nerf even WORSE?!?!?!? :mad::mad::eek: also due to a bug LR is still removed by skarns. (remember that time when Charmcaster removed Enigma's LR? it still works that way)
LR @ rank 3 grants 40% dodge chance now (down from 50% at rank 3) on PTS.
Regarding Skarn's Bane:
Skarn's Bane in the past due to a major bug was able to remove LR and Invuln, I specifically remember this being fixed. I haven't been able to remove LR on a player with Skarns since.
NPC's have "their own magic" so their LR's and Invuln's can still be removed (thankfully). I am not aware of this happening on players though.
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As far as the AT issue goes, I'm in agreement. I think FF access was a strong motivator for subbing, but I've been willing to sub for the sake of tinting power colors alone on my ATs.
If everyone was given freeform access, then there would no longer be a need for special consideration of AT players. I already had to shelve several ATs as they were too much of a liability or too ineffective to be worth using.
I agree with this. I'd prefer that Silvers got limited freeform only using powersets that they had access too from ATs (possibly with the same powers/advantage points per level as ATs get), but I'd be fine with it either way.
I would definitely want color tinting on my Freeform slot though. Or at least a free retcon at level 40... Actually, I want that free level 40 retcon anyway.
____________________________________
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Earlier today I decided to take one of my builds that I suspected would see a greater impact from the upcoming changes. This is the build, if you are curious. Seraphim passive, and relied on Dodge through gear, mods, and Dex spec tree.
Comparing "numbers" between current Live and the PTS, she goes from a little over 40% Dodge to 20% Dodge. So she lost just over half her Dodge skill.
I took this toon to MI and fought a bunch of level 41 VIPER thugs. I had no problem.
I'll keep testing a bit, but so far I feel all this fear over the Dodge changes is over inflated.
You need to take it into a lair or an alerts to start seeing major difference, where tough rated mobs are.
Npcs in the open world shouldn't be causing an issue. It's when you start facing the harder hitting stuff (ala any alert/lair) that the numbers start showing their difference.
Of course, if your first thought to test these changes was to take on basic npcs, you may not recognize a difference when you start fighting tough rated mobs.
You need to take it into a lair or an alerts to start seeing major difference, where tough rated mobs are.
Npcs in the open world shouldn't be causing an issue. It's when you start facing the harder hitting stuff (ala any alert/lair) that the numbers start showing their difference.
Of course, if your first thought to test these changes was to take on basic npcs, you may not recognize a difference when you start fighting tough rated mobs.
...those are team related so... they'd have a team to assist with any problems and defeating enemies. Of course, it might fair worse in lairs and alerts because the build doesn't seem to be geared towards soloing (shocker, ain't it?) but more for being a DPS in support role (viable too.. I remember a TK build that used TK Assault and Lance along with a LOT of the ranged abilities.. was able to handle most of the game with no problem save Legendaries+)
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Quite right on Agent Blue Blaze being a DPS in Support role. She does well in teams or solo (and I've solo'd a lot with her).
I'll accept the notion that zone mobs aren't an adequate challenge. So I decided that I will take my Ego-Blader through one of the Comic Series, Whiteout. It's not a Lair, but I agree that Lair's are designed for teams, not solo. I chose Whiteout cuz I have done it many times and know it very well. I should be able to easily compare the experience here with past solo runs of Whiteout.
I'll post my results when I'm done. My hypothesis? I'll notice her taking more damage, but I'll be able to compensate.
EDIT: You can't do Whiteout on the PTS?!? Crap... I'll find another challenge then.
Hope you do good! If you can, maybe try the APs or do what I always did for testing: beat the hell outta VIPER-X in Bullet Bound for Biselle or do the Rictus Open Mission in Canada
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I sure see a lot more negative feedback from your playerbase Cryptic.
The people applauding the changes don't have anything concrete to say about how these changes will improve the game.
On the other hand, its pretty clear that people are going to be upset by these changes and even less interested in staying in a stagnant game.
You want people to buy your new keys in droves, you gotta make sure they're willing to stay first. CO already has problems retaining lifetime members, and global nerfs without long term testing just further alienates your populace.
Continual nerfs without any major positive addition does not make for a happy customer. If you want the game to thrive, it would help to listen to the community once in a while.
Agree with:
Negative feedback will continue to flow in
Constantly re-arranging the game with buff and nerfing powerset is bad for the game as a whole. Artistic consistency/reliability is important! This is something Cryptic has, historically, NOT does as well as other game companies (i.e.: Bioware, iD Software, Insomiac, and Valve come to mind as companies with a reliable history)
If you want people to buy more keys, you need more ACTIVE population. How do you get more active population, IMHO?
1. Retain the players you have. Bug fixes should always come first, then work on new explorable content. Try to keep customers happy; give diverse and lasting options for having fun. Keep power creep to a minimum as much as possible. Reward players for teamwork, encourage but don't force PvP, and make the game a paradise for people who like to roleplay superheroes and supervillains (this includes making PvE content customizable, such as being able to make your own nemesis missions with a Foundry)
2. Recruit new players (via things like the Refer-A-Friend system, or even some old fashioned marketing advertising off-site)
"Nerfs without a major positive addition does not make for a happy customer" Totally agree.
I do not like Fluidity, because it seems like another means of casting a Flavor of the Month. A half-baked, stop-gap means of trying to appease people getting their favorite builds annihilated by this change, except that it doesn't. It's also reminiscent of an I-win button, pay-to-win stuff (whether it is or isn't, it certainly feels like it) at worst. At best, it is a limitation to build creativity, just one more power you're gonna have to have to be at the top. I hate that.
I do not see effort being put in sufficient to:
A. Test this properly (that means beta testers in the PTS filling out paperwork btw, as well as data and formulas being shared openly by the developers; Ayonachan shouldn't be out source of concrete data, the developers should be)
B. Make the case for why this is needed. I'd agree it is to some extent needed, but this written article isn't sufficiently persuasive enough.
C. Poll all the players. Can't just rely on player feedback, a front-of-the-game-launcher poll is needed. And it needs to be one of those polls where you use sliders on a scale from 1 to 10 kind of thing, so you get data that more accruately describes the complexities and variations in opinions.
Disagree with:
People are applauding this change? Not many, just the trolls. Most people are groaning about having to change all their gear around, again, even if they are actually for the changes.
I don't know of many people who asked for a nerf to dodge/avoid specifically, more just commentary on how overpowered players have become versus regular content in the game and how the game has been largely neglected in favor of Neverwinter and Star Trek.
The changes are actually an improvement for teamplay, and yes there's data to support this. But you see, it's tricky to provide solid data on improvements, because teamplay is not as easily captured in data. For example, did you know that PRE-based dedicated healers are getting buffed with this design? Yes they'll be easier to kill in PvP, but a diversified team of healers and DPS focused builds will preform better now. The biggest changes for PvP will be that the Tauma debuff will be more important now, which actually doesn't change much from what it was already.
My change to dodge, my opinion, would be that the avoidance stat should be done away with and instead dodging means you well... dodged the attack entirely. Dodge and take no damage. To balance? Certain passives and masterful dodge would need to be reworked. But as a result, you can
The developers should only listen to the forums? No... It should be total population polling. But what the forums can be is a place for experts and people who are passionate about the game to debate the details. If we think somebody is being foolish in something we just said, we should be able to voice that opinion and provide reasoning.
They nerfed my amount of out-of-game free time by adding even MORE sources of perks, action figures, costume parts and Questionite to farm. (Fatal Err0r)
They nerfed my ability to waste copious amounts of free time trying to get a mission to complete. (There and Bat Again)
They nerfed my ability to waste hard-earned Questionite, Globals and real-world cash on lockboxes full of worthless R3 mods. (Lockbox improvements)
They nerfed my ability to repeatedly die in low level content. (Starter kits on every new character)
They nerfed my ability to completely fill my bags with XP and Resource boosts. (XP Boost, Favor of the Champions and Resource Boost all now stack to 999 in your inventory)
They nerfed my ability to fail Smashes repeatedly. (Level gating the only failable alerts, and changing their reward so that they're less desirable for lowbies; changing a non-failable alert to give the XP buff instead)
They nerfed my ability to sell multiple Become Devices of the same type to a single player. (Unbinding Imperator and Robot Samurai becomes)
They nerfed my ability to accumulate death Perks by using Become Devices with no passives and/or broken passives.
They nerfed my ability to have horribly over- or undersized wings. (New sliders)
They nerfed my ability to use up all my unneeded Recognition tokens on duplicate costume parts. (Fixing the character-based unlocks on various Recognition costume parts)
They nerfed my ability to pick my powers from short lists. (New powers in various frameworks)
They nerfed my ability to damage my own force fields. (Bug fix to PFF and Field Surge)
They nerfed my ability to apply crowd control effects without gaining stacks of manipulator.
Furthermore, I am eagerly awaiting the Dodge changes to go live. The static values on Dodge Passives, instead of scaling Dodge Rating based on superstats, will make it much easier to level these characters up - not all of us do Alerts to 40 and then instantly gear up in Legion Gear. I'm a little disappointed that they reeled LR back, but I'll wait until I test it to pass judgement.
Of course I would like to keep the higher Dodge chance on characters that will lose some points out of it. But as long as I can still solo all of the content that isn't designed for teams, and some of the team content, then the game is still fine.
The people who are upset because this change will negatively impact their ability to solo Lairs and Cosmics (yes, I realize that not all the people who are upset fall into this category), you need to be nerfed. You're throwing game balance way out of whack. And I'm saying that as someone who's soloed almost all the Lairs in the game.
Those who are complaining, but don't fall into the above category: Can you still solo the game from 1-40? Can you still fulfill your role on a team? If so (I haven't tested yet, but I suspect that the answer to both will be "yes"), then what do you have to complain about?
For the most part, I agree with what you've said.
And I'm clever enough to adapt to the new system. (even though I don't want to have to change all my characters' defense mechanics and gear... again...)
Hint: healers are more useful for teamplay, self heals are more needed for solo play, blocking is a bit more useful, and having more HP is notably more important (meaning CON and Growth Cores are going to see an increase in demand).
There's one problem. That's not 'fixing game balance'. That's creating an artificial challenge by altering players' builds. It's like being completely unchallenged by anyone at the poker table, so instead of finding a new table for you- the dealer pokes you in the eye and puts roofies in your drink to make it 'challenging'. Sure, it's harder- but at YOUR expense and not anyone else stepping up their game appropriately for your skill level.
Don't get me wrong. I think the freeform system is way borked and was a bad idea from the start, and probably should have been a bit more like City of Heroes. I don't think anyone should be able to solo as much of this game as people do. But, flying solo wouldn't be so desirable if the game didn't send so many players in the opposite direction.
But, what's this doing? "Hey, you guys are doing way to good with the current content. Instead of altering or adding to it or adjusting that, we're going to cripple you because that's the easy way. But don't worry, you can make up for that nerf WITH NEW JUSTICE GEAR available through our current business life support gamble box system!"
And this is the other side of the argument that I also have to agree quite a bit with.
If you could combine both your reply and Flamingbunnyman's reply into some sort of pro's and con's or a compromise of some sorts, we'd have the gest of this entire topic distilled down to a summary!
...those are team related so... they'd have a team to assist with any problems and defeating enemies. Of course, it might fair worse in lairs and alerts because the build doesn't seem to be geared towards soloing (shocker, ain't it?) but more for being a DPS in support role (viable too.. I remember a TK build that used TK Assault and Lance along with a LOT of the ranged abilities.. was able to handle most of the game with no problem save Legendaries+)
My whole point being is that even with a full team, even offensive passive folk have to usually take on the role of tank as well as damage.
If the build isn't geared towards soloing, then it all the more so emphasizes the effect of what its like when you can't rely on teammates. That's common for me in alerts, and why I've already shelved half my AT roster as is. Just as my ATs aren't meant for solo, neither is that setup.
Self-healing is the core component of taking on anything with a significantly large health pool, unless of course you can hit it without fear of retaliation.
carrionbaggage's Wiccapedia can deal solid damage, but the character's real strength is the team support incorporated into the setup. I wouldn't call that a dps build, but it definitely can surpass the typical damage output of someone running support role.
For a long while we had double bubble support role pvpers that relied on constant healing and bubbles to avoid defeat. They're damage was significantly less, but they're strength was outlasting MD cds and healing/shielding most of what people could put out, winning battles through attrition.
Quite right on Agent Blue Blaze being a DPS in Support role. She does well in teams or solo (and I've solo'd a lot with her).
I'll accept the notion that zone mobs aren't an adequate challenge. So I decided that I will take my Ego-Blader through one of the Comic Series, Whiteout. It's not a Lair, but I agree that Lair's are designed for teams, not solo. I chose Whiteout cuz I have done it many times and know it very well. I should be able to easily compare the experience here with past solo runs of Whiteout.
I'll post my results when I'm done. My hypothesis? I'll notice her taking more damage, but I'll be able to compensate.
EDIT: You can't do Whiteout on the PTS?!? Crap... I'll find another challenge then.
Whiteout is a mini AP. You won't get the tough rated mobs there, you could set to elite and get somewhat close, but it still won't match it.
You're best bet is to tri vik's lair in andrith since you can enter it solo assuming you have it unlocked. Nemcon requires a full team to pop, TT prevents progress with the statues (though you can technically fight a few before that happens if you can enter at all), Bronze King is lemuria so not only is it a bit of a different dynamic with the water, its lemuria, and the rest of the lairs with tough mobs are rated less that 40, like telios tower or destroyer's factory or burial caves.
Heck, if you can beat a destroid on elite in resistance on live, that's a good test for pts, but that usually requires specialty builds.
Viper's nest at 38 and Rhinoplasty's mobs galore are also a reasonable testing ground, as they may be underlevel, but they're high enough to be just about as dangerous.
Before you start tossing challenges at me to test on, please realize that this character is far from being an uber build. It's a very thematic build. Also, I have Heroic gear with rank 5 mods. I'm much closer to being the "average" player.
What I've been trying to do is testing the toon on stuff I know I have done with her on Live. That's the reason I was planning to do Whiteout. I've completed Whiteout with this toon a few times on Live. I could easily compare a before and after.
Trying to solo Vik won't prove a point. I haven't done it on Live. I wouldn't have something to compare against. Let's say I try on the PTS and fail miserably. I can't say that it's because of the Dodge changes because I haven't tried it on Live. (Honestly, I think I'd fail on Live or PTS.)
So far, what I've done:
I then took gfnotaku1's suggestion and did the Bullet for Biselle open mission on Live. Now, my toon is a level 40 so I can't say this was a tough fight, but I figured it'd still be good to compare. Right after defeating Viper-X, I hopped over to the PTS and did the same open mission there. Can't say it felt any different.
But that's still not a great test. With that said, I'm still not seeing the doom and gloom.
Before you start tossing challenges at me to test on, please realize that this character is far from being an uber build. It's a very thematic build. Also, I have Heroic gear with rank 5 mods. I'm much closer to being the "average" player.
What I've been trying to do is testing the toon on stuff I know I have done with her on Live. That's the reason I was planning to do Whiteout. I've completed Whiteout with this toon a few times on Live. I could easily compare a before and after.
Trying to solo Vik won't prove a point. I haven't done it on Live. I wouldn't have something to compare against. Let's say I try on the PTS and fail miserably. I can't say that it's because of the Dodge changes because I haven't tried it on Live. (Honestly, I think I'd fail on Live or PTS.)
So far, what I've done:
I then took gfnotaku1's suggestion and did the Bullet for Biselle open mission on Live. Now, my toon is a level 40 so I can't say this was a tough fight, but I figured it'd still be good to compare. Right after defeating Viper-X, I hopped over to the PTS and did the same open mission there. Can't say it felt any different.
But that's still not a great test. With that said, I'm still not seeing the doom and gloom.
Because that's an open mission and if I remember right it's for lvl 20-30 ish toons. That you did not see anything is no surprise.
Try doing Vikorin on live (go inside at normal see how it goes then increase the difficulty). Once you reached your max difficulty then go to PTS and try it at that difficulty and see how that compares.
Or use Resistance Destroids. Go to Live and enter resistance at a level you think you could do it. Then see how easy it is and try it out on PTS.
The reason you see no change is because you don't face a challange so obviously there's nothing to see.
It's been my test for a good amount of time, long before On Alert, since VIPER-X has Invuln as well as some very heavy hitting abilities, even at level 40 it hurts. I also try Mega Terak in Monster Island (He's.. ALWAYS running around there when I get on). Sadly, there's no Uninstanced Lvl 40 Legendary that I know of.
I'd send you to Mega-D too but god.. he's way too powerful, even for Offensive passives and Defensive passives. It's a pain to solo.
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[*]People are applauding this change? Not many, just the trolls. Most people are groaning about having to change all their gear around, again, even if they are actually for the changes.
For what it is worth I do applaud the changes (in spirit at least as I do not feel that they are quite right just yet) and do not consider myself to be a troll (usually).
For what it is worth I do applaud the changes (in spirit at least as I do not feel that they are quite right just yet) and do not consider myself to be a troll (usually).
I would agree completely, and I'm far from being a troll.
Progress on my testing on the PTS:
Fired up Resistance. Took out the sharks, went to the arms depot, and decided to trigger the Overseer. And started to solo him. I was lasting quite a while. I took many big hits from him, and used my Conviction and my Siphoning Strikes advantage to heal up every time. Blocking certainly was important, but if I was at full health I could still survive some of the big hits if I forgot to block. Things got problematic when he summoned another Mega D. I had to do some creative retreating and luring to just fight the one. Died a total of two times. Once was by getting stunned at a bad time, the second was getting caught up with the summoned Mega D.
I'm tired and so will get to bed for now, but I do plan to try the same thing on Live tomorrow.
I'll leave this bit of food for thought though:
I recall Dodge and Avoid (especially Avoid) were much more difficult to acquire before On Alert. And somehow, we all managed just fine.
Looking over all the dodge/crit change threads, both the people for it and the people against it are the same few people. I don't care which side you're on (for the record, I'm for the direction of the changes)... face it, we forum posters are vocal minorities and do not represent the general playing population.
The dodge/crit changes are due to them currently being no-brainer choices over defense/offense. There's an old suggestion thread summing this up nicely (some of the current changes aren't much different from some of the ideas brought up there; it's almost as if a dev was reading it, but I'd chalk that up to coincidence). From a purely mathematical point of view, defense/offense scale linearly (or as linear as Cryptic Math allows) whereas dodge/crit do not and skew more as they approach the extreme ends. The current changes to crit rate on PTS is consistent with that: characters with a low crit rate will get an increase, characters with a high crit rate will get a decrease. The "crossover point" seems to be somewhere around 25% crit rate, which is what you would get with DEX as a secondary superstat and some decent gear. This increases build diversity by encouraging players to invest in other aspects of their character. Isn't it constricting to be taking STR/Dex or EGO/Dex and loading up on Gambler's Lucky Gems all the time? This also has the side effect of making all those specializations that proc on a critical hit more accessible (there are too many of such, IMHO, but that's another thing...) since a small investment in DEX and/or crit rate will easily get a reasonable 15% crit (and thus, proc) rate. Oh, and remember that Offense is getting a buff as well. If the balancing is done well, they'll be competitive with one another from a DPS perspective. Hybrid DPS/healers will still find crits an attractive choice since it affects both.
Dodge, as it is, is a more troublesome issue to tackle. Currently, putting dodge gear on all but the most deliberately gimped character builds will allow you to easily go through most content (for bonus points, there's the Resurgent Reiki advantage on Bountiful Chi Resurgence which grants extra healing on a dodge). The scaling is so bad that decent dodge gear approaches levels of Lightning Reflexes, the defensive passive dedicated to dodging, rendering it useless. So the changes mean people will be more dependent on their characters' powers rather than their gear. How is that a bad thing? Yes, you can say that the dodge changes will reduce viability of some builds (more likely it'll make them less godly/more challenging rather than outright unviable; general game content is nowhere near challenging relative to other MMORPGs). The fact that such a crutch was "needed" by some people/characters says something else. But think about it this way... if something can easily make the worst players/character builds viable, what does it do for already viable character builds? And that's not even considering the min-maxed builds. Unlike Offense, Defense isn't (currently planned to be) getting a buff. This may be because the devs see Defense as it currently as the target. But right now, Defense is already more valuable than Offense and there are more factors to consider when modifying the return rate of Defense.
The min-maxers are getting hosed by this the most; the average player isn't being affected by this as much. After all, the average player isn't aware of how over-performing dodge/crit are (and if they are, that's a good indicator that they were very overpowered) and it's really just the min-maxers who are stacking the ridiculous crit and dodge, right? True, the min-maxers will be able to adapt to the changes and still come out ahead as they always have, but they'll no longer be as far above the average then they were. A part of me thinks it's the people who aren't good at min-maxing and want to easily solo content not meant to be soloed (lairs, cosmics, etc.) that are most against it. They're the ones who'll be strongly affected but will have trouble adapting. To sum it all up, narrowing the currently wide power gap is the first step Cryptic can make towards being able to make meaningful content for all players.
Grind for the Grind God! Tokens for the Token Throne!
Before you start tossing challenges at me to test on, please realize that this character is far from being an uber build. It's a very thematic build. Also, I have Heroic gear with rank 5 mods. I'm much closer to being the "average" player.
What I've been trying to do is testing the toon on stuff I know I have done with her on Live. That's the reason I was planning to do Whiteout. I've completed Whiteout with this toon a few times on Live. I could easily compare a before and after.
Trying to solo Vik won't prove a point. I haven't done it on Live. I wouldn't have something to compare against. Let's say I try on the PTS and fail miserably. I can't say that it's because of the Dodge changes because I haven't tried it on Live. (Honestly, I think I'd fail on Live or PTS.)
So far, what I've done:
I then took gfnotaku1's suggestion and did the Bullet for Biselle open mission on Live. Now, my toon is a level 40 so I can't say this was a tough fight, but I figured it'd still be good to compare. Right after defeating Viper-X, I hopped over to the PTS and did the same open mission there. Can't say it felt any different.
But that's still not a great test. With that said, I'm still not seeing the doom and gloom.
*edit just saw you tested against Mega Destroid - something that hits hard and has a lot of HP, that should give you a general idea and is a lot more convenient.
I understand your reasoning. You're looking for something you can complete on live and basically testing if you can still do so on PTS.
However, as I said before, tough rated mobs are what really start to change the game. You can run a 5 man team in PH and fight it solo and not quite get the equivalent of fighting 5 tough rated mobs, depending on mitigation applied.
As far as Bullet for Biselle goes, at level 40 my cursed wipes the floor with him, maybe using a single resurge. Granted, I'm also used to fighting FF players in bash, so I'm also built to not get knocked around so easily either.
It really comes down to team testing, which I know is very difficult to organize as far as PTS goes. Earlier some folks were struggling to get enough folks to run through the fire and ice rampage.
As far as general content goes, FF wise you shouldn't have an issue. If you can heal yourself, the average content isn't going to be challenging because they won't hit hard enough to press your mitigation and healing to its limits. The team content on the other hand can be extremely easy or extremely difficult depending on your teammates performance as well as your own.
It's been my test for a good amount of time, long before On Alert, since VIPER-X has Invuln as well as some very heavy hitting abilities, even at level 40 it hurts. I also try Mega Terak in Monster Island (He's.. ALWAYS running around there when I get on). Sadly, there's no Uninstanced Lvl 40 Legendary that I know of.
I'd send you to Mega-D too but god.. he's way too powerful, even for Offensive passives and Defensive passives. It's a pain to solo.
I can currently solo Mega D (open mission or resistance) on several alts of various passives/builds, a few offensive. But yes, not every build can do so, nor should they have to. I'd say Mega Terak is more dangerous by far, and potentially a good test. He can one hit people depending on setup, but at least he's got a 5min respawn.
For what it is worth I do applaud the changes (in spirit at least as I do not feel that they are quite right just yet) and do not consider myself to be a troll (usually).
I understand wanting balance, and a difference of opinion.
But I'd prioritize player satisfaction over risking further population decline.
Making the same content more difficult doesn't suddenly entice me to do it again.
Looking over all the dodge/crit change threads, both the people for it and the people against it are the same few people. I don't care which side you're on (for the record, I'm for the direction of the changes)... face it, we forum posters are vocal minorities and do not represent the general playing population.
The dodge/crit changes are due to them currently being no-brainer choices over defense/offense. There's an old suggestion thread summing this up nicely (some of the current changes aren't much different from some of the ideas brought up there; it's almost as if a dev was reading it, but I'd chalk that up to coincidence). From a purely mathematical point of view, defense/offense scale linearly (or as linear as Cryptic Math allows) whereas dodge/crit do not and skew more as they approach the extreme ends. The current changes to crit rate on PTS is consistent with that: characters with a low crit rate will get an increase, characters with a high crit rate will get a decrease. The "crossover point" seems to be somewhere around 25% crit rate, which is what you would get with DEX as a secondary superstat and some decent gear. This increases build diversity by encouraging players to invest in other aspects of their character. Isn't it constricting to be taking STR/Dex or EGO/Dex and loading up on Gambler's Lucky Gems all the time? This also has the side effect of making all those specializations that proc on a critical hit more accessible (there are too many of such, IMHO, but that's another thing...) since a small investment in DEX and/or crit rate will easily get a reasonable 15% crit (and thus, proc) rate. Oh, and remember that Offense is getting a buff as well. If the balancing is done well, they'll be competitive with one another from a DPS perspective. Hybrid DPS/healers will still find crits an attractive choice since it affects both.
Dodge, as it is, is a more troublesome issue to tackle. Currently, putting dodge gear on all but the most deliberately gimped character builds will allow you to easily go through most content (for bonus points, there's the Resurgent Reiki advantage on Bountiful Chi Resurgence which grants extra healing on a dodge). The scaling is so bad that decent dodge gear approaches levels of Lightning Reflexes, the defensive passive dedicated to dodging, rendering it useless. So the changes mean people will be more dependent on their characters' powers rather than their gear. How is that a bad thing? Yes, you can say that the dodge changes will reduce viability of some builds (more likely it'll make them less godly/more challenging rather than outright unviable; general game content is nowhere near challenging relative to other MMORPGs). The fact that such a crutch was "needed" by some people/characters says something else. But think about it this way... if something can easily make the worst players/character builds viable, what does it do for already viable character builds? And that's not even considering the min-maxed builds. Unlike Offense, Defense isn't (currently planned to be) getting a buff. This may be because the devs see Defense as it currently as the target. But right now, Defense is already more valuable than Offense and there are more factors to consider when modifying the return rate of Defense.
The min-maxers are getting hosed by this the most; the average player isn't being affected by this as much. After all, the average player isn't aware of how over-performing dodge/crit are (and if they are, that's a good indicator that they were very overpowered) and it's really just the min-maxers who are stacking the ridiculous crit and dodge, right? True, the min-maxers will be able to adapt to the changes and still come out ahead as they always have, but they'll no longer be as far above the average then they were. A part of me thinks it's the people who aren't good at min-maxing and want to easily solo content not meant to be soloed (lairs, cosmics, etc.) that are most against it. They're the ones who'll be strongly affected but will have trouble adapting. To sum it all up, narrowing the currently wide power gap is the first step Cryptic can make towards being able to make meaningful content for all players.
You seem to be jealous. Fyi, the people affected the most are "average players". Not min maxers, since we already have superb gear. 1+1=2. And keep it real, yo... walls of texts won't change the truth into something false.
Fought an Overseer in Resistance on Live to compare against my PTS attempt. I didn't go for as long, not enough to kill it, but long enough to compare how the fight went on Live vs. PTS.
For those who want a reminder, this is the build I was using. Role is Support. Primary gear is: Focused Handguards (blue) with R5 Dex/Gambler, Heroic BP of Agility with R5 Int/Ego/Gambler, Heroic Helm of Topography with R5 Ego/Dex/Impact. Secondary gear is: Condemning Belt (purple), Barricade Bracers (purple), and Egoist's Eyepiece (blue).
Wow, I forgot I still had a couple of blues on her...
So... I logged onto Live, went into Resistance on Normal difficulty, and triggered the Overseer in the Arms depot and proceeded to solo it. This time, I didn't run when the summoned Mega-D dropped. I just made sure to keep both in my camera view and kept fighting while trying to play smart (blocking lots, using Conviction lots, attacking mostly with EBB, EBA, and EW w/ Siphoning Strikes in between the spike attacks from the Mega-Ds). I fought them until I died. If I remember right, I got the Overseer to two-thirds before bad luck got me by an attack that knocked me followed by another big spike.
I then logged into PTS again. Went to the Overseer and again soloed it on the PTS. This time also not running away when the summoned Mega-D dropped, but kept both in my camera, used the same tactics of blocking lots and attacking when I could. The fight went mostly the same. They did kill me, though I got the Overseer to about 1/6th health left. My death was similar, bad luck with a knock that got through my defense.
Comparing the two fights... I'll say that I did notice that I dodged more on Live (which should be expected seeing as I had about half the dodge on the PTS). But I very much think I stood a good chance of winning either fight. I felt, without gear changes or power changes, that the fight was a challenge either way. I'm positive that my ego-blader would have won both fights if I just had the Overseer to worry about.
Conclusion:
So... Is it tougher? Yes. But I had fun. I think I'll keep trying this fight. Just so I can say I won with her not dying.
Just duel. You will notice a huge difference. One doesn't need PTS access to figure out, how badly this is going to affect pvp. Pve is easy peasy, never was a challenge never will be one.
The changes are going to kill, the little bit of what's left of CO pvp. And that is not really a good thing, since pvp is the only endgame content there is.
Just duel. You will notice a huge difference. One doesn't need PTS access to figure out, how badly this is going to affect pvp. Pve is easy peasy, never was a challenge never will be one.
The changes are going to kill, the little bit of what's left of CO pvp. And that is not really a good thing, since pvp is the only endgame content there is.
cheers.
So many things wrong with this statement it's not funny.
First off, losing a duel can be attributed to a variety of things (Lag, going against a build made specifically for PvP, RNG making you its *****, etc.) that you can't factor that in for build effectiveness. Legendaries have a specific output and a specific build that allows them to be used as effective power gauges for your build.
Then there's the content rating. Are you happy with how your build is? What factors do you personally like to see in a build? I like to be able to solo a few things (lairs mainly.) without sacrificing concept. Maybe they have different preferences.
Lastly, PvP is going to be fine if that's your main concern (which it is from what I understand). I actually think this might jumpstart it again since it will make many builds and concepts viable once more just like the old days.
As for PvP being the only endgame.. there's RP, the new rampage coming, nemesis missions, lairs.. the last two especially since I've seen people that don't even know they exist. From the look of vets, there's little endgame since we've done most if not all of it. From new players, there's a good amount to do but can't because so many say there's nothing to do and refuse to. I admit I'm guilty of never wanting to run Destroyer's factory... I hate it so much because of that end boss. Same with VBA.. it ticks me off how much you have to do, but no use complaining!
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And yet, you said people that support the changes are trolls.
In fairness, that wasn't secksegai - that was agentnx5.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Can't be bothered to read 18 pages of thread, I have a question (which might well have come up before).
Is this a case of nerfing one thing to promote the sale of another?
Specifically will the new gear make up for the dodge/crit nerfs by allowing us to stack more gamblers gems?
Is it really as simple as we wanna make money off new gear so we will disadvantage people who don't use it?
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
The nerfs in question are to Critical Chance, Severity, Dodge, and Avoidance. Dodge is the only one that has a very noticeable change. I especially don't notice the change to Crits. It's there in the numbers, but in play I just don't feel it.
Dodge is the one you will feel. But still, I'm not convinced the change warrants the cries of doom that I read.
Case in point. The Overseer tests I did earlier today was done with a toon that is most certainly not a min/maxed toon in both powers and gear. She's a lot closer to "average". Yet with smart play, she held her ground against an Overseer and it's summoned Mega-D backup. I felt just as comfortable doing it on the PTS as I did on Live.
We don't need to buy the best gear. This game always has and always will be playable and enjoyable without it.
The nerfs in question are to Critical Chance, Severity, Dodge, and Avoidance. Dodge is the only one that has a very noticeable change. I especially don't notice the change to Crits. It's there in the numbers, but in play I just don't feel it.
Dodge is the one you will feel. But still, I'm not convinced the change warrants the cries of doom that I read.
Case in point. The Overseer tests I did earlier today was done with a toon that is most certainly not a min/maxed toon in both powers and gear. She's a lot closer to "average". Yet with smart play, she held her ground against an Overseer and it's summoned Mega-D backup. I felt just as comfortable doing it on the PTS as I did on Live.
We don't need to buy the best gear. This game always has and always will be playable and enjoyable without it.
I do not mean to be contrary and I don't expect you to make he needed number of runs to get a baseline (I would do that myself if I felt it was needed, it would not be cool to demand someone else to do that), but when you're comparing the effectiveness of a random occurance from before the chance is cut in half to after, one run isn't enough.
I think I saw you say you were going to try it again though, good luck!
The nerfs in question are to Critical Chance, Severity, Dodge, and Avoidance. Dodge is the only one that has a very noticeable change. I especially don't notice the change to Crits. It's there in the numbers, but in play I just don't feel it.
Dodge is the one you will feel. But still, I'm not convinced the change warrants the cries of doom that I read.
Case in point. The Overseer tests I did earlier today was done with a toon that is most certainly not a min/maxed toon in both powers and gear. She's a lot closer to "average". Yet with smart play, she held her ground against an Overseer and it's summoned Mega-D backup. I felt just as comfortable doing it on the PTS as I did on Live.
We don't need to buy the best gear. This game always has and always will be playable and enjoyable without it.
Cool, I'll never notice any difference, then. Except maybe a decline in the number of people who refuse to take "no" for an answer when they demand a duel from me.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Again, spare me the nonsense. I'm not blind, going from 57% dodge to 30% is huge. Your solution to this issue is to pigeonhole everyone is breaking their theme and taking X, Y, Z powers.
You know, this is exactly what On Alert did to an onslaught of builds, pigeonholing them into Crit and Dodge and making Might toons reliant on knockback all of a sudden and making them detrimental to the group in timed scenarios.
You really shouldn't expect a strategy, build or style of gameplay to be valid throughout the entire lifespan of an online game. Sweeping changes will happen and people will adapt as they always do.
I am all for the changes if they make different builds that don't rely on Crit and Dodge to be more viable. Maybe my classic tanks will come into their own and be able to do the job they were designed to do. I must admit, however, that these changes coming through with the introduction of Justice gear seems a bit dodgy (pun intended) to me.
Can't be bothered to read 18 pages of thread, I have a question (which might well have come up before).
Is this a case of nerfing one thing to promote the sale of another?
Specifically will the new gear make up for the dodge/crit nerfs by allowing us to stack more gamblers gems?
Is it really as simple as we wanna make money off new gear so we will disadvantage people who don't use it?
Nope, thankfully. The new gear is mostly a wash compared to legion gear. Having two pieces will give you some extra SS if you need them, but the Utility Gear is flat out worse and I don't believe the three piece set bonus was very good. It definitely does not make up for the dodge nerfs.
You won't notice the crit nerf as much, except that DEX and Crit Strike won't stack together very well so you might want Offense mods on a DEX toon.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
City of Heroes: Enhancement Diversification and the Global Defense Nerf.
Both if those were ENORMOUS nerfs that destroyed countless builds. And yes, people left after each. But the two eliminated some horrible imbalances (anyone remember dumpster diving?), and ultimately alliwed for the addition of the invention system, an important aspect of character building for the latter 2/3 of the game's life.
Those nerfs happened around the second year of CoH's life. It lasted NINE years.
Interesting. Learned something new since I only played CoH for a handful of hours in its last year or two.
that's not going to be true if the devs nerf us enough. OPEN YOUR EYES DAMMIT!!!:mad::mad::mad:
None of my toons have Legion gear equipped. I actually do have one piece sitting in my bank, but I've yet to decide if I want to sell it or equip it. I currently have no plans to regear my toons after this Dodge change happens. In the case that I do regear, it will not be to equip all Legion or Justice gear and R7+ mods. I am quite satisfied with Heroic gear and R5 mods on my level 40s.
Just duel. You will notice a huge difference. One doesn't need PTS access to figure out, how badly this is going to affect pvp. Pve is easy peasy, never was a challenge never will be one.
I don't PvP. I have considered trying out AT PvP, but by and large I am a PvE player. As are the bulk of CO's players if I remember right.
Cool, I'll never notice any difference, then. Except maybe a decline in the number of people who refuse to take "no" for an answer when they demand a duel from me.
Yeah, speaking of which: when I was playing pre-On Alert (on the GOOD version of CO), I know that there was some way to automatically say no to duel requests. I need to remember it...
Whitelisting duels. It's an option in the privacy options on the social list (press O)
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I still have the emails you sent me about the spec trees way back when
As far as passives go, the numbers I heard about before this latest patch were great and reasonable.
A legion agility was going for 2400 when I came back. Legion elusive was 1200. It took weeks for that price to even move, but it finally started hitting more accessible selling prices when the justice gear and dodge/avoid nerf was announced on PTS and the value crashed.
So in order to make new incoming gear or other stats appealing, they're taking one off the table. But in order to do that, anyone who ever payed a heavy pricetag is being shown that their investment, whether it be time or money, is not valued by the powers that be. God forbid I was a new player who never read the forums and had been buying keys galore. I know that very well happens, because I was that player in SWG who was caught off guard by their "upgrade". I'm fine with balance. But I am not seeing "balance".
As far as the AT issue goes, I'm in agreement. I think FF access was a strong motivator for subbing, but I've been willing to sub for the sake of tinting power colors alone on my ATs.
If everyone was given freeform access, then there would no longer be a need for special consideration of AT players. I already had to shelve several ATs as they were too much of a liability or too ineffective to be worth using.
If it's a bug, I hope it gets fixed quick like many of the ones the devs are tackling.
Comparing "numbers" between current Live and the PTS, she goes from a little over 40% Dodge to 20% Dodge. So she lost just over half her Dodge skill.
I took this toon to MI and fought a bunch of level 41 VIPER thugs. I had no problem.
I'll keep testing a bit, but so far I feel all this fear over the Dodge changes is over inflated.
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I'm quite certain that most of the people freaking over it belong to a certain few SGs. Honestly, I forsee this will end with everyone accepting it after realizing the changes weren't as bad as it's being made out to be. It's like the end of the world conspiracies people do
LR @ rank 3 grants 40% dodge chance now (down from 50% at rank 3) on PTS.
Regarding Skarn's Bane:
Skarn's Bane in the past due to a major bug was able to remove LR and Invuln, I specifically remember this being fixed. I haven't been able to remove LR on a player with Skarns since.
NPC's have "their own magic" so their LR's and Invuln's can still be removed (thankfully). I am not aware of this happening on players though.
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I agree with this. I'd prefer that Silvers got limited freeform only using powersets that they had access too from ATs (possibly with the same powers/advantage points per level as ATs get), but I'd be fine with it either way.
I would definitely want color tinting on my Freeform slot though. Or at least a free retcon at level 40... Actually, I want that free level 40 retcon anyway.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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You need to take it into a lair or an alerts to start seeing major difference, where tough rated mobs are.
Npcs in the open world shouldn't be causing an issue. It's when you start facing the harder hitting stuff (ala any alert/lair) that the numbers start showing their difference.
Of course, if your first thought to test these changes was to take on basic npcs, you may not recognize a difference when you start fighting tough rated mobs.
...those are team related so... they'd have a team to assist with any problems and defeating enemies. Of course, it might fair worse in lairs and alerts because the build doesn't seem to be geared towards soloing (shocker, ain't it?) but more for being a DPS in support role (viable too.. I remember a TK build that used TK Assault and Lance along with a LOT of the ranged abilities.. was able to handle most of the game with no problem save Legendaries+)
I'll accept the notion that zone mobs aren't an adequate challenge. So I decided that I will take my Ego-Blader through one of the Comic Series, Whiteout. It's not a Lair, but I agree that Lair's are designed for teams, not solo. I chose Whiteout cuz I have done it many times and know it very well. I should be able to easily compare the experience here with past solo runs of Whiteout.
I'll post my results when I'm done. My hypothesis? I'll notice her taking more damage, but I'll be able to compensate.
EDIT: You can't do Whiteout on the PTS?!? Crap... I'll find another challenge then.
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Agree with:
1. Retain the players you have. Bug fixes should always come first, then work on new explorable content. Try to keep customers happy; give diverse and lasting options for having fun. Keep power creep to a minimum as much as possible. Reward players for teamwork, encourage but don't force PvP, and make the game a paradise for people who like to roleplay superheroes and supervillains (this includes making PvE content customizable, such as being able to make your own nemesis missions with a Foundry)
2. Recruit new players (via things like the Refer-A-Friend system, or even some old fashioned marketing advertising off-site)
A. Test this properly (that means beta testers in the PTS filling out paperwork btw, as well as data and formulas being shared openly by the developers; Ayonachan shouldn't be out source of concrete data, the developers should be)
B. Make the case for why this is needed. I'd agree it is to some extent needed, but this written article isn't sufficiently persuasive enough.
C. Poll all the players. Can't just rely on player feedback, a front-of-the-game-launcher poll is needed. And it needs to be one of those polls where you use sliders on a scale from 1 to 10 kind of thing, so you get data that more accruately describes the complexities and variations in opinions.
Disagree with:
Yes actually.
For the most part, I agree with what you've said.
And I'm clever enough to adapt to the new system. (even though I don't want to have to change all my characters' defense mechanics and gear... again...)
Hint: healers are more useful for teamplay, self heals are more needed for solo play, blocking is a bit more useful, and having more HP is notably more important (meaning CON and Growth Cores are going to see an increase in demand).
And this is the other side of the argument that I also have to agree quite a bit with.
If you could combine both your reply and Flamingbunnyman's reply into some sort of pro's and con's or a compromise of some sorts, we'd have the gest of this entire topic distilled down to a summary!
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
My whole point being is that even with a full team, even offensive passive folk have to usually take on the role of tank as well as damage.
If the build isn't geared towards soloing, then it all the more so emphasizes the effect of what its like when you can't rely on teammates. That's common for me in alerts, and why I've already shelved half my AT roster as is. Just as my ATs aren't meant for solo, neither is that setup.
Self-healing is the core component of taking on anything with a significantly large health pool, unless of course you can hit it without fear of retaliation.
carrionbaggage's Wiccapedia can deal solid damage, but the character's real strength is the team support incorporated into the setup. I wouldn't call that a dps build, but it definitely can surpass the typical damage output of someone running support role.
For a long while we had double bubble support role pvpers that relied on constant healing and bubbles to avoid defeat. They're damage was significantly less, but they're strength was outlasting MD cds and healing/shielding most of what people could put out, winning battles through attrition.
Whiteout is a mini AP. You won't get the tough rated mobs there, you could set to elite and get somewhat close, but it still won't match it.
You're best bet is to tri vik's lair in andrith since you can enter it solo assuming you have it unlocked. Nemcon requires a full team to pop, TT prevents progress with the statues (though you can technically fight a few before that happens if you can enter at all), Bronze King is lemuria so not only is it a bit of a different dynamic with the water, its lemuria, and the rest of the lairs with tough mobs are rated less that 40, like telios tower or destroyer's factory or burial caves.
Heck, if you can beat a destroid on elite in resistance on live, that's a good test for pts, but that usually requires specialty builds.
Viper's nest at 38 and Rhinoplasty's mobs galore are also a reasonable testing ground, as they may be underlevel, but they're high enough to be just about as dangerous.
What I've been trying to do is testing the toon on stuff I know I have done with her on Live. That's the reason I was planning to do Whiteout. I've completed Whiteout with this toon a few times on Live. I could easily compare a before and after.
Trying to solo Vik won't prove a point. I haven't done it on Live. I wouldn't have something to compare against. Let's say I try on the PTS and fail miserably. I can't say that it's because of the Dodge changes because I haven't tried it on Live. (Honestly, I think I'd fail on Live or PTS.)
So far, what I've done:
I then took gfnotaku1's suggestion and did the Bullet for Biselle open mission on Live. Now, my toon is a level 40 so I can't say this was a tough fight, but I figured it'd still be good to compare. Right after defeating Viper-X, I hopped over to the PTS and did the same open mission there. Can't say it felt any different.
But that's still not a great test. With that said, I'm still not seeing the doom and gloom.
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Because that's an open mission and if I remember right it's for lvl 20-30 ish toons. That you did not see anything is no surprise.
Try doing Vikorin on live (go inside at normal see how it goes then increase the difficulty). Once you reached your max difficulty then go to PTS and try it at that difficulty and see how that compares.
Or use Resistance Destroids. Go to Live and enter resistance at a level you think you could do it. Then see how easy it is and try it out on PTS.
The reason you see no change is because you don't face a challange so obviously there's nothing to see.
I'd send you to Mega-D too but god.. he's way too powerful, even for Offensive passives and Defensive passives. It's a pain to solo.
For what it is worth I do applaud the changes (in spirit at least as I do not feel that they are quite right just yet) and do not consider myself to be a troll (usually).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I would agree completely, and I'm far from being a troll.
Progress on my testing on the PTS:
Fired up Resistance. Took out the sharks, went to the arms depot, and decided to trigger the Overseer. And started to solo him. I was lasting quite a while. I took many big hits from him, and used my Conviction and my Siphoning Strikes advantage to heal up every time. Blocking certainly was important, but if I was at full health I could still survive some of the big hits if I forgot to block. Things got problematic when he summoned another Mega D. I had to do some creative retreating and luring to just fight the one. Died a total of two times. Once was by getting stunned at a bad time, the second was getting caught up with the summoned Mega D.
I'm tired and so will get to bed for now, but I do plan to try the same thing on Live tomorrow.
I'll leave this bit of food for thought though:
I recall Dodge and Avoid (especially Avoid) were much more difficult to acquire before On Alert. And somehow, we all managed just fine.
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The dodge/crit changes are due to them currently being no-brainer choices over defense/offense. There's an old suggestion thread summing this up nicely (some of the current changes aren't much different from some of the ideas brought up there; it's almost as if a dev was reading it, but I'd chalk that up to coincidence). From a purely mathematical point of view, defense/offense scale linearly (or as linear as Cryptic Math allows) whereas dodge/crit do not and skew more as they approach the extreme ends. The current changes to crit rate on PTS is consistent with that: characters with a low crit rate will get an increase, characters with a high crit rate will get a decrease. The "crossover point" seems to be somewhere around 25% crit rate, which is what you would get with DEX as a secondary superstat and some decent gear. This increases build diversity by encouraging players to invest in other aspects of their character. Isn't it constricting to be taking STR/Dex or EGO/Dex and loading up on Gambler's Lucky Gems all the time? This also has the side effect of making all those specializations that proc on a critical hit more accessible (there are too many of such, IMHO, but that's another thing...) since a small investment in DEX and/or crit rate will easily get a reasonable 15% crit (and thus, proc) rate. Oh, and remember that Offense is getting a buff as well. If the balancing is done well, they'll be competitive with one another from a DPS perspective. Hybrid DPS/healers will still find crits an attractive choice since it affects both.
Dodge, as it is, is a more troublesome issue to tackle. Currently, putting dodge gear on all but the most deliberately gimped character builds will allow you to easily go through most content (for bonus points, there's the Resurgent Reiki advantage on Bountiful Chi Resurgence which grants extra healing on a dodge). The scaling is so bad that decent dodge gear approaches levels of Lightning Reflexes, the defensive passive dedicated to dodging, rendering it useless. So the changes mean people will be more dependent on their characters' powers rather than their gear. How is that a bad thing? Yes, you can say that the dodge changes will reduce viability of some builds (more likely it'll make them less godly/more challenging rather than outright unviable; general game content is nowhere near challenging relative to other MMORPGs). The fact that such a crutch was "needed" by some people/characters says something else. But think about it this way... if something can easily make the worst players/character builds viable, what does it do for already viable character builds? And that's not even considering the min-maxed builds. Unlike Offense, Defense isn't (currently planned to be) getting a buff. This may be because the devs see Defense as it currently as the target. But right now, Defense is already more valuable than Offense and there are more factors to consider when modifying the return rate of Defense.
The min-maxers are getting hosed by this the most; the average player isn't being affected by this as much. After all, the average player isn't aware of how over-performing dodge/crit are (and if they are, that's a good indicator that they were very overpowered) and it's really just the min-maxers who are stacking the ridiculous crit and dodge, right? True, the min-maxers will be able to adapt to the changes and still come out ahead as they always have, but they'll no longer be as far above the average then they were. A part of me thinks it's the people who aren't good at min-maxing and want to easily solo content not meant to be soloed (lairs, cosmics, etc.) that are most against it. They're the ones who'll be strongly affected but will have trouble adapting. To sum it all up, narrowing the currently wide power gap is the first step Cryptic can make towards being able to make meaningful content for all players.
*edit just saw you tested against Mega Destroid - something that hits hard and has a lot of HP, that should give you a general idea and is a lot more convenient.
I understand your reasoning. You're looking for something you can complete on live and basically testing if you can still do so on PTS.
However, as I said before, tough rated mobs are what really start to change the game. You can run a 5 man team in PH and fight it solo and not quite get the equivalent of fighting 5 tough rated mobs, depending on mitigation applied.
As far as Bullet for Biselle goes, at level 40 my cursed wipes the floor with him, maybe using a single resurge. Granted, I'm also used to fighting FF players in bash, so I'm also built to not get knocked around so easily either.
It really comes down to team testing, which I know is very difficult to organize as far as PTS goes. Earlier some folks were struggling to get enough folks to run through the fire and ice rampage.
As far as general content goes, FF wise you shouldn't have an issue. If you can heal yourself, the average content isn't going to be challenging because they won't hit hard enough to press your mitigation and healing to its limits. The team content on the other hand can be extremely easy or extremely difficult depending on your teammates performance as well as your own.
I can currently solo Mega D (open mission or resistance) on several alts of various passives/builds, a few offensive. But yes, not every build can do so, nor should they have to. I'd say Mega Terak is more dangerous by far, and potentially a good test. He can one hit people depending on setup, but at least he's got a 5min respawn.
I understand wanting balance, and a difference of opinion.
But I'd prioritize player satisfaction over risking further population decline.
Making the same content more difficult doesn't suddenly entice me to do it again.
Make it more rewarding, then you got something.
You seem to be jealous. Fyi, the people affected the most are "average players". Not min maxers, since we already have superb gear. 1+1=2. And keep it real, yo... walls of texts won't change the truth into something false.
cheerios.
edit
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
For those who want a reminder, this is the build I was using. Role is Support. Primary gear is: Focused Handguards (blue) with R5 Dex/Gambler, Heroic BP of Agility with R5 Int/Ego/Gambler, Heroic Helm of Topography with R5 Ego/Dex/Impact. Secondary gear is: Condemning Belt (purple), Barricade Bracers (purple), and Egoist's Eyepiece (blue).
Wow, I forgot I still had a couple of blues on her...
So... I logged onto Live, went into Resistance on Normal difficulty, and triggered the Overseer in the Arms depot and proceeded to solo it. This time, I didn't run when the summoned Mega-D dropped. I just made sure to keep both in my camera view and kept fighting while trying to play smart (blocking lots, using Conviction lots, attacking mostly with EBB, EBA, and EW w/ Siphoning Strikes in between the spike attacks from the Mega-Ds). I fought them until I died. If I remember right, I got the Overseer to two-thirds before bad luck got me by an attack that knocked me followed by another big spike.
I then logged into PTS again. Went to the Overseer and again soloed it on the PTS. This time also not running away when the summoned Mega-D dropped, but kept both in my camera, used the same tactics of blocking lots and attacking when I could. The fight went mostly the same. They did kill me, though I got the Overseer to about 1/6th health left. My death was similar, bad luck with a knock that got through my defense.
Comparing the two fights... I'll say that I did notice that I dodged more on Live (which should be expected seeing as I had about half the dodge on the PTS). But I very much think I stood a good chance of winning either fight. I felt, without gear changes or power changes, that the fight was a challenge either way. I'm positive that my ego-blader would have won both fights if I just had the Overseer to worry about.
Conclusion:
So... Is it tougher? Yes. But I had fun. I think I'll keep trying this fight. Just so I can say I won with her not dying.
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The changes are going to kill, the little bit of what's left of CO pvp. And that is not really a good thing, since pvp is the only endgame content there is.
cheers.
So many things wrong with this statement it's not funny.
First off, losing a duel can be attributed to a variety of things (Lag, going against a build made specifically for PvP, RNG making you its *****, etc.) that you can't factor that in for build effectiveness. Legendaries have a specific output and a specific build that allows them to be used as effective power gauges for your build.
Then there's the content rating. Are you happy with how your build is? What factors do you personally like to see in a build? I like to be able to solo a few things (lairs mainly.) without sacrificing concept. Maybe they have different preferences.
Lastly, PvP is going to be fine if that's your main concern (which it is from what I understand). I actually think this might jumpstart it again since it will make many builds and concepts viable once more just like the old days.
As for PvP being the only endgame.. there's RP, the new rampage coming, nemesis missions, lairs.. the last two especially since I've seen people that don't even know they exist. From the look of vets, there's little endgame since we've done most if not all of it. From new players, there's a good amount to do but can't because so many say there's nothing to do and refuse to. I admit I'm guilty of never wanting to run Destroyer's factory... I hate it so much because of that end boss. Same with VBA.. it ticks me off how much you have to do, but no use complaining!
And yet, you said people that support the changes are trolls.
I'm starting to think that you might not understand either of those.
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Is this a case of nerfing one thing to promote the sale of another?
Specifically will the new gear make up for the dodge/crit nerfs by allowing us to stack more gamblers gems?
Is it really as simple as we wanna make money off new gear so we will disadvantage people who don't use it?
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Dodge is the one you will feel. But still, I'm not convinced the change warrants the cries of doom that I read.
Case in point. The Overseer tests I did earlier today was done with a toon that is most certainly not a min/maxed toon in both powers and gear. She's a lot closer to "average". Yet with smart play, she held her ground against an Overseer and it's summoned Mega-D backup. I felt just as comfortable doing it on the PTS as I did on Live.
We don't need to buy the best gear. This game always has and always will be playable and enjoyable without it.
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I do not mean to be contrary and I don't expect you to make he needed number of runs to get a baseline (I would do that myself if I felt it was needed, it would not be cool to demand someone else to do that), but when you're comparing the effectiveness of a random occurance from before the chance is cut in half to after, one run isn't enough.
I think I saw you say you were going to try it again though, good luck!
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You know, this is exactly what On Alert did to an onslaught of builds, pigeonholing them into Crit and Dodge and making Might toons reliant on knockback all of a sudden and making them detrimental to the group in timed scenarios.
You really shouldn't expect a strategy, build or style of gameplay to be valid throughout the entire lifespan of an online game. Sweeping changes will happen and people will adapt as they always do.
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Nope, thankfully. The new gear is mostly a wash compared to legion gear. Having two pieces will give you some extra SS if you need them, but the Utility Gear is flat out worse and I don't believe the three piece set bonus was very good. It definitely does not make up for the dodge nerfs.
You won't notice the crit nerf as much, except that DEX and Crit Strike won't stack together very well so you might want Offense mods on a DEX toon.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Ah, so it was.
Their posts kind of run together.
--Part 1: Spells and Coin (NW-DHM3XQVQK)
--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
-One Shots
--The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)
Interesting. Learned something new since I only played CoH for a handful of hours in its last year or two.
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
None of my toons have Legion gear equipped. I actually do have one piece sitting in my bank, but I've yet to decide if I want to sell it or equip it. I currently have no plans to regear my toons after this Dodge change happens. In the case that I do regear, it will not be to equip all Legion or Justice gear and R7+ mods. I am quite satisfied with Heroic gear and R5 mods on my level 40s.
I don't PvP. I have considered trying out AT PvP, but by and large I am a PvE player. As are the bulk of CO's players if I remember right.
Seraphim passive. I give a link to her build and a brief list of her gear in an earlier post (link below for convenience).
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3698961&postcount=179
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Yeah, speaking of which: when I was playing pre-On Alert (on the GOOD version of CO), I know that there was some way to automatically say no to duel requests. I need to remember it...
This explains everything!
Deliciously nutritious!