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Attempting to start a new era of Team PvP

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  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So, random question, what level do you guys aim to use? I assume 40's since max and choices and whatnot, but I'm just wonderin'.

    I got a toon I was working on that would be 'PvP'-ccentric and, probably get steamrolled but also build within concept. Only level 10 right now since I'm busy dueling every person I meet but still.
    @HangingDeath

    Deliciously nutritious!
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Changing topic. Been experimenting with builds and costumes this weekend. Wanted to do a pbr/SL invul toon with high ego, but since pbr is off, I thought of tk assault+mini gun....it sounds bad and looks much worse lol. The ultimate powers I tried all sucked. So my question is...is defile/invul with high int considered good for this event?
    I mean what are you guys going to use? End/int/rec electric form builds or quarries without 2gm?
  • mrf0rz1mrf0rz1 Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    isometry wrote: »
    You aren't really criticizing our builds, you are criticizing us. You don't like the veterans, you wish we would go away. There is nothing about my build that I could change that would satisfy you.

    Hey calm down, I didn't point at you anywhere in my essay, what would even make you think that I want you 'veterans' to go away anyways.

  • isometryisometry Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    mrf0rz1 wrote: »
    Hey calm down, I didn't point at you anywhere in my essay, what would even make you think that I want you 'veterans' to go away anyways.

    Ugh I'm sorry...I guess I'm having one of those days where I take everything too personally.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    isometry wrote: »
    You aren't really criticizing our builds, you are criticizing us. You don't like the veterans, you wish we would go away. There is nothing about my build that I could change that would satisfy you.

    Pretty much why I was glad when whats-her-name said that build/power restriction wasn't going to be a part of this... has that changed? The moment that the policy becomes "pretend that pvp is a nice friendly place to lure them in" is the moment this becomes a temporary revival at best (just like all the other ones).


    Quote from a wise man on a mountain: "They'll never be happy until they can beat you, and then what do you get out of the deal?"
  • mrf0rz1mrf0rz1 Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Pretty much why I was glad when whats-her-name said that build/power restriction wasn't going to be a part of this... has that changed? The moment that the policy becomes "pretend that pvp is a nice friendly place to lure them in" is the moment this becomes a temporary revival at best (just like all the other ones).


    Quote from a wise man on a mountain: "They'll never be happy until they can beat you, and then what do you get out of the deal?"

    It has never been about beating anyone as it shows nothing. You may enjoy watching 10 nonsense builds flying in a fashion that burns my nonexistent eyes and bashing eachother, the massive amount of people who left of stopped bothering don't.

    It will also be a temporary and quite short revival if restrictions aren't applied, except that on top of it you get forced to play something you don't enjoy as the opponent will inevitably pick the weapons.

  • isometryisometry Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    mrf0rz1 wrote: »
    It will also be a temporary and quite short revival if restrictions aren't applied, except that on top of it you get forced to play something you don't enjoy as the opponent will inevitably pick the weapons.

    In theory I like the idea of restrictions, but in practice there are problems.

    1) Communicating. A lot of people don't read the forums, and barely read their in-game chat channels, so getting the message out about rules and restrictions is difficult.

    2) "You mean I can't use X, but you can use Y! QQ" - some players will be upset that they can't use their favorite powers, while their pet peeves remain unrestricted.

    3) Slippery slope. It's always easy to start building a list of restricted powers, the difficult thing is to stop, to draw the line somewhere. Suppose we start a list of powers to be disallowed:

    Strafing Run
    Ebon Ruin
    Two Gun Mojo
    Quarry
    Aopm
    night warrior
    Smoke Grenade
    Evasive Maneuvers advantage
    teleport

    What about things that are totally overpowered, but everyone takes for granted? No conviction, no msa, no masterful dodge, no ego surge, no ascension. So do we all run fugly bionic shielding? Encourage stalemates by taking bcr? ahhh.

    Another way to say this is that restricting the current fotm just takes us back to the fotm from a previous era. With the changes I just proposed, unkillable str/con defiance is a great build (remind anyone of 2010?).

    I'm fine with power restrictions, personally, I can adapt to whatever is decided. But I do know from past experience that it's really difficult to pull this off. We've had power restricted tournaments where people spend weeks arguing about the rules, some are changed at the last minute, and after the tournament is done everyone has hard feelings.

    And even if everyone follows the rules, there will always be a way to min/max the rules for the people who care about winning above all else. This is why I proposed informal rules. Although I agree that the amount of strafing run we saw makes my proposal unsuccessful. Remember, a lot of these players are children, and those who joined the game in the past year have never known any other way to play except to be brutally cutthroat. I wish you the best with designing and enforcing restrictions, but I'm not convinced that it can be done.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    mrf0rz1 wrote: »
    It has never been about beating anyone as it shows nothing. You may enjoy watching 10 nonsense builds flying in a fashion that burns my nonexistent eyes and bashing eachother, the massive amount of people who left of stopped bothering don't.

    Are you really saying that your main problem with FotM builds is that they are fashion disasters? ...so... you would happily lose every duel within seconds, and go 0-X in every hero game... so long as the people beating you up look fabulous? u_u Well I feel dumb... I thought you were against all this fotm stuff because it made pvp less fun for anyone who doesn't savor the flavor... >.>
    isometry wrote: »
    In theory I like the idea of restrictions, but in practice there are problems.

    1) Communicating. A lot of people don't read the forums, and barely read their in-game chat channels, so getting the message out about rules and restrictions is difficult.

    2) "You mean I can't use X, but you can use Y! QQ" - some players will be upset that they can't use their favorite powers, while their pet peeves remain unrestricted.

    3) Slippery slope. It's always easy to start building a list of restricted powers, the difficult thing is to stop, to draw the line somewhere. Suppose we start a list of powers to be disallowed:

    2&3) And who gets to make the list? Who's "we"? It certainly isn't the entire pvp community. So who gets the authority? What do you say when you're the authority, and someone accuses you of making the list in a way that benefits you more than others? What do you do when people just decide to ignore this list?

    It seems like everytime we come to this point, everyone just hopes that "the honor system" will somehow win the day. The end result is always that it doesn't... in fact, very act of trying to implement these rules just gives people an excuse to accuse each other of cheating, which breeds all sorts of negativity, and then everybody goes back to nuking each other.

    Let's just forget that whole thing this time around. How about his time around, we take a mature and sober approach to this... one without all the pie-in-the-sky dreams and believing in the goodness deep inside every pvpers heart. You can't stop people from using what they're going to use, and if you try to ban people from participating then you're just shrinking the pvp community... which is sort of the opposite of what we want, right?

    There's that qoute about doing the same thing over and over being the definition of insanity... but I'm not going to quote it because it's not the definition of insanity (that's actually kind of offensive to anyone with a real mental illness), but what it is is the definition of guaranteed failure.
  • isometryisometry Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    2&3) And who gets to make the list? Who's "we"? It certainly isn't the entire pvp community. So who gets the authority? What do you say when you're the authority, and someone accuses you of making the list in a way that benefits you more than others? What do you do when people just decide to ignore this list?

    Yeah, those are all problems with restricting powers. Which is why I proposed an honor system instead.

    What are your constructive suggestions?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    isometry wrote: »
    Yeah, those are all problems with restricting powers. Which is why I proposed an honor system instead.

    What are your constructive suggestions?

    Like I said, stop pretending the honor system is going to work. Stop trying to restrict powers and builds and all... because you can't. Whoever you are, whatever you've done, whoever the people who associate with are, you are ultimately powerless to stop others from using whatever powers thrown together in whatever builds they're going to use.

    Yes, I know I'm shooting that entire section of your plan right in the face and that makes you want to claim that I'm not trying to help or whatever. But check the pulse on that thing, it was dead before I shot it, I'm just shooting it to show you that it's been dead for a while.

    That is my constructive criticism. Stop sabotaging yourself with a plan that ultimately only gives people an excuse to demonize one another for doing something that the game ultimately supports in a way that you will never be able to break.

    I know you disagree because you really want to believe that you can pull this off. You can't, and the rest of your plan will benefit greatly if you accept that.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    There is no question that restrictions have to exist in order to help people learn how to pvp in an encouraging manner.

    You don't start someone off with a 500lb weight and say, "Ok now get fit, good luck."

    The question is how those restrictions are implemented and enforced. It started off with relying on people to use their own judgement and restrict themselves. Maybe that will work eventually and maybe that won't work. If it doesn't then we SHOULD set restrictions on powers that can be used.

    Because, again, in order for these players to have a shot at learning how to fight they need to start at a lower difficulty level and work their way up.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    2&3) And who gets to make the list? Who's "we"? It certainly isn't the entire pvp community. So who gets the authority?
    This is easy. The "we" is the people who worked on the event and put in time and effort to make it happen.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    What do you say when you're the authority, and someone accuses you of making the list in a way that benefits you more than others?
    You say, "If you don't believe that I'm genuinely trying to help out then go run your own event."
    spinnytop wrote: »
    What do you do when people just decide to ignore this list?
    You exclude them from participation.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I know you disagree because you really want to believe that you can pull this off. You can't, and the rest of your plan will benefit greatly if you accept that.

    I don't really understand. Are you saying to give up? If yes, then what "rest of the plan" are you talking about? If not, then how do you propose to pull it off?

    Either way, despite all the issues the turnout was great so we're going to keep trying.
  • keikomystkeikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Really, my only issue with builds is that they need to be killable. The absurd active defense-uber cooldown reduction-massive healing needs to stop, because nothing is more discouraging than having a 1/100 chance to kill someone with Strafing Run, a power you may or may not have or even like, because they've got Masterful Dodge, 60-70% base dodge, Ascension, etc. etc.

    Combine that with 16k bubbles, 14k health, and said person with 30k combined HP has the ability to kill a squishy with a button press and a click...

    Case in point, my whole team couldn't stop a healer-with-16k-bubbles and a DPSer that the healer was supporting from killing our Stronghold bosses. It was silly and almost downright insulting how ineffective we were. If I were a newbie I probably would have called it quits right then and there.

    Dial your crazy healing back a lot and kill Ascension. You can still be tough. Just make it so there is a chance that you might actually die to someone else.
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Like I said, stop pretending the honor system is going to work. Stop trying to restrict powers and builds and all... because you can't. Whoever you are, whatever you've done, whoever the people who associate with are, you are ultimately powerless to stop others from using whatever powers thrown together in whatever builds they're going to use.

    Yes, I know I'm shooting that entire section of your plan right in the face and that makes you want to claim that I'm not trying to help or whatever. But check the pulse on that thing, it was dead before I shot it, I'm just shooting it to show you that it's been dead for a while.

    That is my constructive criticism. Stop sabotaging yourself with a plan that ultimately only gives people an excuse to demonize one another for doing something that the game ultimately supports in a way that you will never be able to break.

    I know you disagree because you really want to believe that you can pull this off. You can't, and the rest of your plan will benefit greatly if you accept that.
    Hello Lucidity. You fooled us all for a while
  • isometryisometry Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    keikomyst wrote: »
    Really, my only issue with builds is that they need to be killable. The absurd active defense-uber cooldown reduction-massive healing needs to stop, because nothing is more discouraging than having a 1/100 chance to kill someone with Strafing Run, a power you may or may not have or even like, because they've got Masterful Dodge, 60-70% base dodge, Ascension, etc. etc.

    Combine that with 16k bubbles, 14k health, and said person with 30k combined HP has the ability to kill a squishy with a button press and a click...

    Case in point, my whole team couldn't stop a healer-with-16k-bubbles and a DPSer that the healer was supporting from killing our Stronghold bosses. It was silly and almost downright insulting how ineffective we were. If I were a newbie I probably would have called it quits right then and there.

    Dial your crazy healing back a lot and kill Ascension. You can still be tough. Just make it so there is a chance that you might actually die to someone else.

    There is a lot of truth to this. A bare minimum for fun PvP is that everyone should feel that they are having an effect. Being nearly invincible definitely takes fun away from players with sub-optimal damage (i.e. not picking their attacks from the top 5).

    But the other side of this is that it's no fun to be so squishy and helpless that you get constantly defeated, to the point of not being able to do anything and just running into instant defeat over and over.

    The informal solution should be simple: design our builds so that they can be defeated by a reasonable amount of damage, and go after tough players more than squishy ones.
  • mrf0rz1mrf0rz1 Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Are you really saying that your main problem with FotM builds is that they are fashion disasters? ...so... you would happily lose every duel within seconds, and go 0-X in every hero game... so long as the people beating you up look fabulous? u_u Well I feel dumb... I thought you were against all this fotm stuff because it made pvp less fun for anyone who doesn't savor the flavor... >.>

    You weren't forced to make an essay just for the example I've made.

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    mrf0rz1 wrote: »
    You weren't forced to make an essay just for the example I've made.

    THat wasn't an essay.. that was barely even a paragraph :|
    kamokami wrote: »
    I don't really understand. Are you saying to give up? If yes, then what "rest of the plan" are you talking about? If not, then how do you propose to pull it off?

    Either way, despite all the issues the turnout was great so we're going to keep trying.

    I'm definitely not saying give up. Just like anyone else I hope to see PvP participation go up, in the hopes that enough activity might actually get it some attention from the people in charge ( yeah I know, I'm a dreamer ), or at the very least get something other than bash to start popping regularly. I'm saying give up on the honor system.

    But I think I misunderstood your plan. You're only interested in getting people involved in team duels, I thought this had something to do with getting people to que for hero games. Sorry, my mistake. Your event, you ban anyone you like :)
    Hello Lucidity. You fooled us all for a while

    Now, I don't pretend to be able to fully translate all the things that person talks about... but I think if they had the ability, Lucidity would actually be more than happy to impose widespread restrictions on other players' power choices... since the one thing I see them consistently do is criticize other peoples' builds. So, how you got from point (A) me saying not to restrict builds, to point (B) Lucidity's build hating ways..... is beyond me. Also, Lucidity is probably the chief culprit when it comes to demonizing other players and accusing them of everything under the known sun... so that's fairly inconsistent as well.

    Do explain :D

    Side note: Dare you to take her off ignore so you can do "research" for your explanation uwu

    Side note 2: I thought you and IMP were like, best friends?
    isometry wrote: »
    The informal solution should be simple: design our builds so that they can be defeated by a reasonable amount of damage, and go after tough players more than squishy ones.

    Okay that might be fun for you seasoned vets to do... but us noobs will just end up gimping ourselves horribly as we try to fit into your standards of acceptability. Can it be an acknowledged rule that anyone who people take joy in calling a noob gets to bring any build they want? After all, they're a noob, they won't be OP no matter what they use, right? :D
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I'm saying give up on the honor system.

    But I think I misunderstood your plan. You're only interested in getting people involved in team duels, I thought this had something to do with getting people to que for hero games. Sorry, my mistake. Your event, you ban anyone you like :)

    We may have to give up on it but there's still hope! The plan includes q-ing for HGs. We'd have to run 5vs5 premades to enforce any explicit restrictions. Hopefully we won't have to since it's much easier and more inclusive to just ask people to q up. Gets people to play more and spend less time standing around as we saw with team duels.

    I was very encouraged by the turnout from iso and rab's event last weekend. It shows that there is actual interest in giving pvp a shot. So even if everything fails as far as having new players play with regulars, I may try to run my own highly controlled event with just one other regular as captains and everyone else being totally new.

    Or just a tourney for new players only with a few vets as judges. But hopefully the current pvp community can restrict itself for 2hrs per week and we won't have to exclude it from pvp events lawlz.
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    ...Side note: Dare you to take her off ignore so you can do "research" for your explanation uwu.

    I'm not ignoring her, and neither is she....she is right about some things(not most things but yea) and she does like melee builds. Maybe, given the chance see could participate constructively here, just saying since you're trying to bring some liFe back to PvP, you might not want to exclude others from the start...

    Same goes for DC/SoT guys... Give Aphro another chance, don't send ragey tells to Red or whatever you do and maybe, we will get 8 players or so with some experience and knowledge.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »

    Side note 2: I thought you and IMP were like, best friends?

    zomg
    Lol. <- Penny style


    If you were around about 8 months ago me and sters were constantly having a go at each other. We are far from best friends. ;) But this is CO, no one has any friends... Only rivals! ;O
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I'm not ignoring her, and neither is she....she is right about some things(not most things but yea) and she does like melee builds. Maybe, given the chance see could participate constructively here, just saying since you're trying to bring some liFe back to PvP, you might not want to exclude others from the start...

    Same goes for DC/SoT guys... Give Aphro another chance, don't send ragey tells to Red or whatever you do and maybe, we will get 8 players or so with some experience and knowledge.

    Just to clear it up... who is your post directed at? o_O Cause I don't understand about 90% of what you just said... or rather, I don't understand why you would be saying it to me xD
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Just to clear it up... who is your post directed at? o_O Cause I don't understand about 90% of what you just said... or rather, I don't understand why you would be saying it to me xD

    Half to youhalf to ISO I gues. I dunno Am too high spirited atm.

    And yes, I cherrypick ememies all day.
  • gerberatetragerberatetra Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I hope this goes well for the PvP crowd.

    As you guys know I'm not a fan of it myself but I support this idea if it makes CO more fun.


    Here we are now going to the West Side
    Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
    Some may come and some may stay
    Watching out for a sunny day
    Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm


    In game as @forgemccain
  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    PvP, as you guys know, I'm not a fan of it myself

    Your continued input on various "Hero Games" threads shows the gist of what I've surmised.

    Thanks for your continued contributions(?).
  • gerberatetragerberatetra Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    oobtree wrote: »
    Your continued input on various "Hero Games" threads shows the gist of what I've surmised.

    Thanks for your continued contributions(?).

    Well I support the game, even the parts I don't play in.

    And as for team pvp; that has been fun now and then in RP. Though we usually don't do it that way it was entertaining.


    Here we are now going to the West Side
    Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
    Some may come and some may stay
    Watching out for a sunny day
    Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm


    In game as @forgemccain
  • gerberatetragerberatetra Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    oobtree wrote: »

    Thanks for your continued contributions(?).

    Speaking of contributions; did you post a suggestion thread about giving players loot tables?


    Here we are now going to the West Side
    Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
    Some may come and some may stay
    Watching out for a sunny day
    Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm


    In game as @forgemccain
  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Speaking of contributions; did you post a suggestion thread about giving players loot tables?

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=241731

    I mentioned it as per recommended.
  • isometryisometry Posts: 148 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I'm not ignoring her, and neither is she....she is right about some things(not most things but yea) and she does like melee builds. Maybe, given the chance see could participate constructively here, just saying since you're trying to bring some liFe back to PvP, you might not want to exclude others from the start...

    Same goes for DC/SoT guys... Give Aphro another chance, don't send ragey tells to Red or whatever you do and maybe, we will get 8 players or so with some experience and knowledge.

    We're on the same page. I usually don't have luci on ignore (except temporarily when she is spamming tells at me), and I would even forgive her if she was ready to start having two-way conversations. I also talked to mcluving and redburst and unmuted them in copvp. I have not seen aphrodite in several months but if he has mellowed out then I have no grudge with him either.
  • blatantmynxblatantmynx Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    In other words, you want to keep up appearances so people don't know you're a self-righteous hypocrite who is super-desperate. You are such a stupid, human-stacking pvp golf tee. Go copy 6 bodyguards you childish idiot.
    ____________

    Impossible is nothing.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I enjoy a nice plate of cookies now and then, anyone else?
  • blatantmynxblatantmynx Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    tortilla chips n queso
    ____________

    Impossible is nothing.
  • meeeenlucyismeanmeeeenlucyismean Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You can start a new era of team PvP by actually playing it.


    In Champions Online PvP, it's not what you know, it's who you know.
  • aetam1aetam1 Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I enjoy a nice plate of cookies now and then, anyone else?

    What kind of cookies?

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    aetam1 wrote: »
    What kind of cookies?

    I like chocolate cookies with mustard. Tasty.
  • aetam1aetam1 Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I like chocolate cookies with mustard. Tasty.

    I don't know, that just sounds wrong.

    Now I am no native english speaker but i will try to describe what a good cookie looks like:
    The basis is a normal dough containing crushed nuts (no idea how to translate nussteig). Anyway you form some round cookies with that and bake them. Afterwards you add a layer of jam (I like dark cherry for that). Next you add a layer of marzipan. On top of that you add some citrus frosting (it is basically powdered sugar with lemon juice).
    After that you can decorate it. Half of candied cherry and a bit of chocolate do nicely for that.

    Best cookies ever. Unfortunately they are a lot of work.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    aetam1 wrote: »
    I don't know, that just sounds wrong.


    The basis is a normal dough containing crushed nuts (no idea how to translate nussteig). Anyway you form some round cookies with that and bake them. Afterwards you add a layer of jam (I like dark cherry for that). Next you add a layer of marzipan. On top of that you add some citrus frosting (it is basically powdered sugar with lemon juice).
    After that you can decorate it. Half of candied cherry and a bit of chocolate do nicely for that.

    Best cookies ever. Unfortunately they are a lot of work.

    We have cookies with chocolate here in Greece. And mustard cookies with chocolate too.

    It sounds bad but it tastes like heaven. And is cheaper too.
  • aetam1aetam1 Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    We have cookies with chocolate here in Greece. And mustard cookies with chocolate too.

    It sounds bad but it tastes like heaven. And is cheaper too.

    Darn, I was in Greece two times with my parents, as a kid. Had I known I would have tried them.

    My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
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