Making IDF better

archaerest · September 2013

Inertial Dampening Field. It can be a great power. A lot of tanks want to take it to make their tanks more tanky. There's one big problem though- if a tank takes IDF, it can't take another form power, and many other form powers are where tanks get their energy returns from. To fix this, please add an advantage to IDF that makes it so that IDF only affects the caster, but in return allows another form power to be used, and perhaps gives IDF a reduced energy cost in this state.

theravenforce · September 2013

IDF used to be a toggle power meaning Form Powers could be used along side it (so IDF + Enrage was possible).

This was changed to make IDF a form power. However the change was incomplete. Why?

Because unlike all other forms, IDF (and arguably Mental Discipline) were left out from the form conversion and do not stack to 8 stacks.

Unlike Mental Dis, which has a stacking mechanic, IDF has none and to top it off it scales HORRIBLY with super stats.

I am beginning to wonder if my idea I posted ages back about having IDF being enveloped by PFF and becoming a much needed secondary mechanic to Personal Force Field without the energy penalty (since it doesn't have one unlike all over Defensive Passives) and replacing old IDF with a new stacking form which increases Damage Resistance/Flat Damage absorb per stack from the base value and increases damage by half this % value in addition to granting energy.

So in a similar fashion to Concentration, Manipulator and Compassion.

"Unique % Increase" + "% damage increase" + "Energy Gain" = Form Power

In new IDF's case it would be:

"Damage Absorb/Resistance % Increase" + "% damage increase per stack" + "Energy Gain" = New IDF.

I reckon it should scale on primary super stat and it's affects should apply to allies like IDF currently does.

Unknown · September 2013

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shadowzero66 · September 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

IDF used to be a toggle power meaning Form Powers could be used along side it (so IDF + Enrage was possible).

And everyone and their mothers did take IDF together with Enrage or a MA Form barring major energy issues (IDF+Enrage was difficult without AoPM back then). It got to the point where it was pretty much a power tax.

This was changed to make IDF a form power. However the change was incomplete. Why?

Because unlike all other forms, IDF (and arguably Mental Discipline) were left out from the form conversion and do not stack to 8 stacks.

Unlike Mental Dis, which has a stacking mechanic, IDF has none and to top it off it scales HORRIBLY with super stats.

This is understandable. The problem with trying to bring IDF "in line" with the rest of the Form powers is that IDF is the only defensive Form. It would be like trying to homogenize a defensive passive and an offensive passive with each other. The scaling issue is likely the legacy of old IDF abuse. But keep in mind that most of the offensive Forms give bonuses that are very susceptible to diminishing returns. IDF can be layered on Invulnerability/Aura of Radiant Protection/Quarry/Pestilence/whatever without being really diminished.

Mental Discipline is a weird case since it piggybacks off an existing mechanic. Ego Leech and all the powers that play off it would need to be adjusted. Personally, I like Mental Discipline for its diminishing return-resistant bonus and that, like IDF, ranking it up gives a more meaning boost.

I am beginning to wonder if my idea I posted ages back about having IDF being enveloped by PFF and becoming a much needed secondary mechanic to Personal Force Field without the energy penalty (since it doesn't have one unlike all over Defensive Passives) and replacing old IDF with a new stacking form which increases Damage Resistance/Flat Damage absorb per stack from the base value and increases damage by half this % value in addition to granting energy.

So in a similar fashion to Concentration, Manipulator and Compassion.

"Unique % Increase" + "% damage increase" + "Energy Gain" = Form Power

In new IDF's case it would be:

"Damage Absorb/Resistance % Increase" + "% damage increase per stack" + "Energy Gain" = New IDF.

I reckon it should scale on primary super stat and it's affects should apply to allies like IDF currently does.

IDF scaling with superstat(s) like it does right now puts it out of the norm with the other existing Form powers. Yes, Mental Discipline is also off the standard. The way Mental Discipline is right now isn't very friendly to being directly bolstered by stats. If IDF were to go under a "proper form conversion" and scaled off a specific stat like the others, it'd probably be Ego since the Force powerset seems to have a thing for it (Knocks, Force Shield, and technically Protection Field).

It sounds a bit harsh, but the points you made aren't new. I do agree with the issues but I can understand where they're coming from. IDF's scaling can be better, but how to keep it from getting too out of hand? I think the best thing for Cryptic to do is probably make a second defensive Form so that there can be a standard for defensive Forms.

Unknown · September 2013

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theravenforce · September 2013

laughinxan wrote: »

Hmm, I'd disagree with Personal force fields requiring Inertial Dampening Field or vice versa,

I assume when saying this you have used PFF, even with dodge it can fail at times, sure maybe not against regular mobs or even Cyberlord ones but when having a defensive passive really matters, that is when you see which one is lacking in comparison to the rest. Namely PFF. Myself and others have been saying for a while now, PFF needs a secondary mechanic. Be it, Damage Absorption, Damage Reflect or Flat Damage ignore or even special resistance against all damage types as a force field (higher against Crushing Damage, medium against Energy and lowish against Paranormal).

It needs something, as it stands, if something is able to do more than 500-900 DPS per 3 secs it is dead easy to remove PFF (provided they aren't blocking). On Bionic Bullet my roughly balanced DPS/Survival toon I can hit for around 3.1k per .5 sec, and I'm not even optimised for insane DPS.

Energy Storm Ultimate? (Granted not many use this) will remove PFF, Field Surge, Protection Field, Energy Refraction and Mindful Reinforcement, in one go. NPC wise, VIPER's Pulson Technology (on the little guys believe it or not) inverts PFF from 95% absorb and 5% bleed through damage to 95% bleed through and 5% absorb, whilst under the effects of Pulson, only enhanced by the addition of Defense Breeching by Brick Busters. <-- Just these few things makes me feel PFF is not only lacking but is pretty vulnerable. There exists a power which can outright remove your entire passive for a time (and it will absorb your AD Field Surge if you try to activate it afterwards) which is readily accessible to the player base. And then there is VIPER the most widespread NPC group of villains in game, who can entirely invert your force field.

Yes. I do run PFF. Yes, I do love it thematically, although aside from RPing and the occasional villain bashing, I'm not having as much fun as -I- think I should be having. (yes I agree that is my problem and no one else's but I am just using an example) I can only survive content like Gravitar when I run it because my entire build is -built- around defending Personal Force Field, it is the ONLY -Defensive Passive- which can be removed in combat by NPCs and players alike.

And once it has gone, without field surge you'd best be packing some Constitution and block like hell. With other defensive passives I've only ever needed one or two heals to accompany it and the rest are all out attacks.

Why?

Because the only things which can remove my other defensive passives are me if I un slot them and being killed.

laughinxan wrote: »

As it stands hybrids sacrifice far to much damage to make IDF worth having.

This is likely why you disagree.

Because there is -nothing- to make IDF great or worth having it falls to Pet Master Builds, Invuln/IDF damage absorbers or the rare few (like myself) who take PFF and IDF as a combination and Impulse ATs. Creating a new Defensive Form which would stack based on damage taken and scales on END/EGO would be the step in the right direction Force has been needing for a long time, not to mention the assistance it would give the Impulse AT. Yes I have levelled 1-40 with PFF on IMPULSE AT (Pre On Alert so pre fix days when IDF and everything else worked UNDER PFF) and I don't think I've ever levelled anything quite so painful in my life.

It -shouldn't- be too hard to take IDF and put it in PFF, Invuln has the same thing which scales better and works, it doesn't apply to team members. (but then again my idea of making PFF a weird support/tanking passive which shields allies nearby doesn't need to be brought back from it's grave

)

Smushing IDF with PFF would be the best thing to do. Have the new form I proposed above for New IDF apply to those within the same radius of old IDF and stack when damage is taken, increasing everyone's resistance to damage/flat number of damage ignored increased.

That would allow viability for non Concentration builds and would make the Impulse (in my eyes) playable and enjoyable (also removing that god awful decision to include force SNAP in the AT, replace it with a healing power IMO also fixing Protection Field so it scales with Super Stats instead of just PRE)

joybuzzerx · September 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

That would allow viability for non Concentration builds and would make the Impulse (in my eyes) playable and enjoyable (also removing that god awful decision to include force SNAP in the AT, replace it with a healing power IMO also fixing Protection Field so it scales with Super Stats instead of just PRE)

The problem I see with that, is it's a common request. Replace PRE with something else (another stat or SS)...people seem to want to make PRE useless.

To the OP, how many advantage points are you thinking for IDF to become a personal use power?

I agree it needs something. I wanted to use it on a few concepts, but felt I was just losing out in the end when it came between IDF or a FORM power that helped damage.

Not sure if it was that it didn't give enough survival, or I just lost to much on the damage. But it also could have just been my imagination. May have been the energy return.

Though, to help that, what they may want to do is make a new Energy Unlock instead.

Maybe an energy unlock that returns energy when you charge a power to half way (or even full) based off one of the stats.

Or give Overdrive a way to use Charge powers.

theravenforce · September 2013

joybuzzerx wrote: »

The problem I see with that, is it's a common request. Replace PRE with something else (another stat or SS)...people seem to want to make PRE useless.

In my case. Hell No. I do not want to make PRE useless by ANY means. A number of my builds are dependant on that beautiful stat. What I am saying is that Protection Field ideally should not be tied to PRE. Why? It is not a "healing" power like Mindful Reinforcement. If anything it should scale with super stats or EGO but be boosted by PRE. As it stands having super high stats without PRE will bag you maybe 2.9-3k Protection Field? And with a few PRE points 3k base @ rank 1.

joybuzzerx wrote: »

I agree it needs something. I wanted to use it on a few concepts, but felt I was just losing out in the end when it came between IDF or a FORM power that helped damage.

Not sure if it was that it didn't give enough survival, or I just lost to much on the damage. But it also could have just been my imagination. May have been the energy return.

Though, to help that, what they may want to do is make a new Energy Unlock instead.

Maybe an energy unlock that returns energy when you charge a power to half way (or even full) based off one of the stats.

Or give Overdrive a way to use Charge powers.

You do loose a considerable amount of damage potential by taking IDF agreed, which is why I proposed what I did.

I'd like to see an energy unlock like this, for Force and general knocking powersets:

[Kinetic Reverberation] - Never has knocking enemies been so rewarding! By focusing on Kinetic Capture, you can draw energy from your enemies in terms of the energy they produce whilst flying through the air.

+ Energy Return scales with EGO or STR whichever is higher. But is affected by your Intelligence statistic.
+ Each time you knock or repel an enemy more than 10 feet or attempt to knock an enemy you gain a burst of Potential Energy.

joybuzzerx · September 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

In my case. Hell No. I do not want to make PRE useless by ANY means. A number of my builds are dependant on that beautiful stat. What I am saying is that Protection Field ideally should not be tied to PRE. Why? It is not a "healing" power like Mindful Reinforcement. If anything it should scale with super stats or EGO but be boosted by PRE. As it stands having super high stats without PRE will bag you maybe 2.9-3k Protection Field? And with a few PRE points 3k base @ rank 1.

You do loose a considerable amount of damage potential by taking IDF agreed, which is why I proposed what I did.

I'd like to see an energy unlock like this, for Force and general knocking powersets:

[Kinetic Reverberation] - Never has knocking enemies been so rewarding! By focusing on Kinetic Capture, you can draw energy from your enemies in terms of the energy they produce whilst flying through the air.

+ Energy Return scales with EGO or STR whichever is higher. But is affected by your Intelligence statistic.
+ Each time you knock or repel an enemy more than 10 feet or attempt to knock an enemy you gain a burst of Potential Energy.

I'd say affected by REC over INT. It encourages you to either take REC as a SS or a few talent points. And isn't that just how most Energy Unlocks are? That just seems to be "let's cater to popular combos of Super Stats" more so than others.

On my knock characters, Id be fine with an Energy Unlock that scaled with EGO or STR and was affected by REC.

sagewithbubbles · September 2013

Scale Force's Energy Return, and a damage toggle (if you make one or end up adding something to IDF to boost damage) with End.

It's the only stat that isn't tied to at least one toggle, it fits with all the other energy-projector sets needing End for their energy unlocks and it fits with the way Force's powers work.

Force contains one of the only powers in the game that requires at least some investment in End to make full use of (Force Cascade, even with heavy discounts you still need a bit over baseline maximum End to fully charge it).

And if you must change the scaling on Protection Field (I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning behind it), make that scale with End too.

And leave IDF's base functionality as it is. It's an interesting contrast to the damaging toggles. If you must add its feature to PFF (which isn't a bad idea) or give it a damage buff (I'd suggest a much weaker version of Redirected Force's buff, scaling on End) do so. Just don't eliminate the ability to grant teammates flat damage reduction as a toggle form.

Unless you end up rolling its function into a new, non-PFF force-themed Support Passive that buffs shield HP. That'd work.

Maybe...

Kinetic Aura (all values below are from CO wiki, base stats at 40)

-Boosts physical damage (ranged and melee) by a value roughly equivalent to same-level/stat Quarry. So 20% base at level 40 Rank 3, before superstats. (The damage numbers here are similar to Seraphim's damage bonus being equal to other Energy Form passives, but lowered to Quarry level because of the other stuff the passive adds.)

-Buffs Shield HP of Shields created by the caster by 14% at rank 3, before superstats (similar to Seraphim)

-Reduces cost of Force powers by 15% at Rank 3 (Similar to Ego Form)

-Attacking grants stacks of the Forceful buff. This buffs the users' Recovery and Endurance by a value scaling with superstats, hard-capped at 30. (shamelessly stolen from Quarry).

And optionally (I'd suggest one of these, not both. Mini-IDF would probably be much easier to code and keep track of, IMO.) :

- Mini-PFF Aura: Grants shield HP and shield regeneration to the user and all teammates within 50 feet. Shield HP and Regeneration for user scales with users' Superstats. Shield HP for teammates scales with End, shield regeneration for teammates scales with Pre. Values in Support Role are roughly equivalent to one-eighth a comparable PFF for the user and one-quarter a comparable PFF to affected teammates. Shield HP and Shield Regeneration would stack with PFF for affected users that use PFF. Hybrid role users flip those values (so one-quarter PFF for the user, one-eight PFF for the teammates, kind of like the other auras).

*Base value for level 40 PFF, rank 3 is 1281 shield HP and 230 shield per 3 seconds.

* So in Support Role, this would be 160 shield HP and 28 shield regen per 3 seconds for the user. And 320 shield HP/57 shield regen per 3 seconds.

- Mini-IDF Aura: Grants teammates and the user flat damage reduction equal to half of a level-equivalent/rank-equivalent IDF. This goes over shield effects, as IDF, and would stack with other sources of flat reduction.

I think the wall of text above would fit pretty well for a Force-oriented Support Passive. It plays nice with shields, it gives a damage bonus to use the Force attacks, and even if you aren't using the bubbles, you can still get some benefit out of all of its stuff.

Since it works with physical damage (kind of like Quarry), it can also be used in a Seraphim-like role to buff other physical damage sets (Munitions, Archery, Might, HW, Wind, etc).

Since the shield HP for teammates scales with End, you could make a Pre-less support character that mixes in other Energy Projector attacks too, if you wanted.

It works kind of like the aura passives, so it's not an unfamiliar mechanic to learn. And in actual effect, it'd be kind of the opposite of AoRP. Protects well against small hits, but needs active management (bubbles) to deal with big hits.

And we finally get a passive that buffs the important things to a bubble-spamming healer: Energy, Shield HP and Shield cost.

Disclaimer: My main's a bubble-spamming support character, and I'd love to use a passive like the one I suggested. It'd be nice to get rid of AoPM (currently the only passive that buffs shield HP or reduces shield cost).

m1ndfr1k · September 2013

there is no reason to change IDF. its good enough already

flyingfinn · September 2013

Better doesn't allways mean it's not working good enough, that it maybe should work differently.

And we usually require spreadsheets, pictures, [Thin Air] or something to prove your 'good enough' point.

theravenforce · September 2013

m1ndfr1k wrote: »

there is no reason to change IDF. its good enough already

If this is the case then it should be reverted back to a toggle power not a form. The general rule for a form power is to have some sort of stacking mechanic, additive or multiplicative in value.

I personally have been unable to find a "form" power which has no stacking mechanic, aside from IDF.

Inertial Dampening Field has NOTHING except for flat damage absorb and a 10% nerf to energy generation and recovery to user. <---That, IMO is not acceptable.

Unknown · September 2013

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spinnytop · September 2013

IDF is actually fine against npcs, since they all do such pitiful damage that it can make you damn near immune to them all, along with your whole group.

Of course then you run into something that actually does meaningful damage and boom... you basically don't have a Form lol.

What I would do is make IDF give you a damage bonus, but only when you, or the people affected by your IDF, are taking enough damage to make the damage reduction irrelevant, that way it's always serving some purpose, just like the other forms, but doesn't jump into the "Now everyone is using IDF" spot. Last thing we need is for them to start taking underpeforming powers and make them OP FotM!

....wait...

bluhman · September 2013

What I'd do is just make it like a hybrid between its current form and Mental Discipline - while it's on, you get like 15/25/35% more physical damage output. The advantage is that this can hold a candle up to other toggles, and also opens up some other build opportunities (a high base damage boost instead of having to build up = sniper/alpha strike builds, possibly). The disadvantages include worse energy management and requirement to spend 4 advantage points to get maximal potential.

...Hell, there should be a full set of toggles like these for the Projector sets. A damage boosting/clinging flames-refreshing fire toggle, an ice toggle that strengthens root and hold effects, an electric one that generates energy for your allies, and a wind one that slows the fall of enemies or something, idunno.

m1ndfr1k · September 2013

its good for pve. i guess u want to make it work in pvp))))

rtma · September 2013

I made a suggestion about a Defient styled internal defense that would scale with END or CON, whatever is higher, only for the one using it, the IDF would still only reduce for teammates accordingly.

digital2009 · September 2013

Maybe all forms just need to be multi-powered so they aren't so useless after toggling them on. So if IDF needed an upgrade I'd say mix it up with Redirected Force by leaving the 20 second duration and allowing the form to be used and maintained as Redirected Force if affected by form.

m1ndfr1k · September 2013

dont change IDF. its k. idk why u whant to change it.

Making IDF better

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