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Need advice on a straight Might tank build.
jonandre1
Posts: 67 Arc User
Recent research has shown me that where it comes to building toons, I am all sorts of FUBAR. My favorite character right now is a straight-up Might build tank, but he's not really tanking so well... on alerts, I can grab aggro fairly well, but I don't have the staying power I'd like.
What I want is a brick tank. A straight-up invulnerable defender, who sticks the enemy in front of him and can't be moved. I know damage resistance is inferior to damage avoidance; don't care. I want massive amounts of DR.
Right now my build is 50% Unarmed and 50% Might. Well, I know that was a mistake, and I plan on a rebuild ASAP to a mostly Might build. Here's what I have so far:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Excess
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Behemoth
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Quick Recovery
Level 12: Relentless
Level 15: Acrobat
Level 18: Accurate
Level 21: Boundless Reserves
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Beatdown (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 8: Mighty Leap
Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Enrage (Rank 2, Endorphin Rush, Giant Growth)
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 20: Retaliation
Level 23: Supernatural Power
Level 26:
Level 29:
Level 32:
Level 35:
Level 38:
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Tough (3/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Arbiter: Enforcer (3/3)
Arbiter: Ruthless (2/2)
Arbiter: Rend (2/2)
Arbiter: Enhanced Gear (3/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)
The concept is for a super-strong normal guy (like Luke Cage), not a mega-strength brute (i.e. the Hulk or Superman), so powers like Shockwave and Havoc Stomp just don't fit the concept. I'd like a PBAoE attack, as they're so useful for soloing, and a Knock To attack would be handy when the main threat is trying to get away and Mighty Leap is on cooldown.
EDIT: Please, don't get technical on me, telling me to add things like Imbue. I don't want technical. I want button-mashing simplicity. Tank with lots of DPS, that's me.
What I want is a brick tank. A straight-up invulnerable defender, who sticks the enemy in front of him and can't be moved. I know damage resistance is inferior to damage avoidance; don't care. I want massive amounts of DR.
Right now my build is 50% Unarmed and 50% Might. Well, I know that was a mistake, and I plan on a rebuild ASAP to a mostly Might build. Here's what I have so far:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Excess
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Behemoth
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Quick Recovery
Level 12: Relentless
Level 15: Acrobat
Level 18: Accurate
Level 21: Boundless Reserves
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Beatdown (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 8: Mighty Leap
Level 11: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Enrage (Rank 2, Endorphin Rush, Giant Growth)
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 20: Retaliation
Level 23: Supernatural Power
Level 26:
Level 29:
Level 32:
Level 35:
Level 38:
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Tough (3/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: Tenacious (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Arbiter: Enforcer (3/3)
Arbiter: Ruthless (2/2)
Arbiter: Rend (2/2)
Arbiter: Enhanced Gear (3/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)
The concept is for a super-strong normal guy (like Luke Cage), not a mega-strength brute (i.e. the Hulk or Superman), so powers like Shockwave and Havoc Stomp just don't fit the concept. I'd like a PBAoE attack, as they're so useful for soloing, and a Knock To attack would be handy when the main threat is trying to get away and Mighty Leap is on cooldown.
EDIT: Please, don't get technical on me, telling me to add things like Imbue. I don't want technical. I want button-mashing simplicity. Tank with lots of DPS, that's me.
________________________________
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
Post edited by jonandre1 on
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The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Excess
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Devastator
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Body and Mind
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Paramilitary Training
Level 21: Quick Recovery
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Mighty Leap (Crippling Challenge, Nailed to the Ground)
Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2, Instep Crush)
Level 14: Enrage (Endorphin Rush, Giant Growth)
Level 17: Beatdown (Rank 2, Blindside Blow)
Level 20: Demolish (Rank 2, Below the Belt)
Level 23: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 29: Retaliation
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Unbreakable
Level 38: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:
Specializations:
Strength: Swole (3/3)
Strength: Physical Peak (2/3)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Slaughter (2/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (2/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1)
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Just wanted to point this out.
Supernatural Power only triggers off Supernatural powers. That is, powers from Infernal Supernatural or Bestial Supernatural. Nothing you have in the OP would trigger it.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
I still have Ice Queen, my HW Regen tank on just Rank 5 mods and Heroic Gear and she still tanks Gravitar without bothering to block any bubble on her first two bars.
With Regeneration and Resurgence as your only heals you can play around with all sorts of powers and active offenses.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Here's the build I have in mind now:
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Excess
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Intelligence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Devastator
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Healthy Mind
Level 12: Body and Mind
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Boundless Reserves
Level 21: Investigator
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 6: Mighty Leap (Crippling Challenge, Nailed to the Ground)
Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 17: Beatdown (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Demolish (Rank 2, Below the Belt)
Level 23: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 29: Retaliation
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Unbreakable
Level 38: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35: Superjump (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Tough (3/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (1/3)
Constitution: Armored (2/2)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Slaughter (2/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: The Rush of Battle (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
A lot of this build is based on previous advice; for example, it still has Conviction in it, and Conviction does absolutely nothing for me. (Is Conviction a Charged power? That might be why it's doing nothing for me.) Bountiful Chi Resurgence would better fit my playstyle: It's the fire-and-forget self-heal.
Yes, I have Crippling Challenge on two attacks. I spam the hell out of Defensive Combo. I like to keep the threat up. Is this wrong?
I'm not even sure why I have Beatdown. Seems to me Demolish does what Beatdown does, only with higher damage output. I need a PBAoE somewhere in the build for handling mobs (and when I say mobs I mean lots of attackers). Would Iron Cyclone be a better choice?
Also, Molecular Self-Assembly. What is this power doing?
Masterful Dodge and Ego Surge. I have no idea why these are in the build. Masterful Dodge increases Dodge, sure, but... I don't have that much to begin with. Ego Surge, for more crits... and I don't dink with crits. The build has the STR for high damage output (or at least this is my impression), so it doesn't need crits. (I know crits are always nice, but... you shouldn't need to rely on them.) Wouldn't a self-buff, like Inertial Dampening Field, be better here?
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
Name: Excess
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Mighty
Level 9: Agile
Level 12: Enduring
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Acrobat
Level 21: Physical Conditioning
Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Crippling Challenge)
Level 6: Mighty Leap
Level 8: Defiance (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Inexorable Tides (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 17: Hurl (Nailed to the Ground)
Level 20: Demolish (Rank 2, Below the Belt)
Level 23: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 29: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 38: Aggressor (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35: Superjump (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Specializations:
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (3/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Constitution: Adrenaline Rush (2/2)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
Won't say it's the best build. But you took a Spec Tree option for DEX gives Dodge Chance, but didn't have DEX as a Super Stat.
Sooo...Fuel My Fire/Defiance/Molecular Self Assembly for Energy Gain.
Parry with Elusive Monk advantage. It's strengthened by DEX as well.
Aggressor. Yes, you lose some of the CRIT chance from EGO Surge, but you can get that from GEAR, DEX SS, and you said you weren't interrested in being DPS, but annoying tank anyways. So, grab Aggressor, instant 3 Stacks of Enrage and +60 to STR and CON...two of your superstats!
Resurgence! You're CON SS and Resurgence's heal is based on CON!
Hurl! 100ft range power with Nailed to the Ground! Handy!
Well that is quite rude to say that to experienced players who offered their advice at your request.
I am fairly certain that YOU are the one that needs to learn how to play if you are botching up a STR PSS tank.
Unbreakable is fairly useless in higher content while Conviction is valuable. If you keep depressing your DPS numbers you won't be able to pull agg off even mediocre DPS role toons or Support toons who will probably wind up tanking.
Because to my understanding, tanking is about two things: damage mitigation and threat. You want to generate more threat than anyone else in the party, and you want to be able to mitigate enough damage to be survivable so that the healer can keep you alive. DPS is NOT the method used to generate aggro; Threat is the method used to generate aggro. There are many good powers in Might to generate threat, combined with Crippling Challenge.
But the second thing you need is to mitigate damage, which means high defenses. I understand that there's a drive in CO for dodge tanks, which makes absolutely NO sense. If you dodge 70% of the attacks, the 30% remaining will kill you. It's better to have damage resistance, so that you take less damage, thereby increasing the effectiveness of your hit points.
Healing powers help in this, but they have to be effective.
Which leads me to the point I made before: Conviction is doing NOTHING for me.
At this point this character is level 31, and perhaps I should have asked for a levelling build rather than a level 40 endgame build. But when I hit the button for Conviction... nothing happens. I get no extra hit points. No healing. Nothing. It's a wasted power. Bountiful Chi Resurgence was so much better, because it actually healed me and let me survive the battle. Especially when there's no healer to back me up.
Now, I may be doing something wrong; in fact, compared to most of the 'tank' builds I've seen on this forum, I'm positive I'm doing something wrong. But my experience tells me the build is wrong, not the playstyle. So, please, someone point me in the right direction* to tell me if Champions Online is completely different from other MMOs I've played or what the heck is going on here.
*Please, God, NOT YOUTUBE. I learn nothing from watching videos. I need to read the information, not watch it.
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
... tanking without endgame gear can be an exercise in frustration. Particularly in alerts, or so I've found.
In point of fact, CO has multiple sources of threat: straight-up taunts (Crippling Challenge, Challenging Strikes); healing (! yeah, CoX didn't but a lot of games do), and ...
... wait for it...
... debuffs and ...
... DPS.
So... yeah. DPS can matter as a tank. Particularly if you've got a dex-primary Lightning Arc DPS'er on your team, or other high-value maintains.
While as a tank, you are probably NOT going to top the damage charts, you may also want to rethink your requirements.
Tanking, proper, with full level 40 gear - is pretty easy, really.
Tanking, in alerts, against Legendaries, when you don't have a full set of powers, and don't have Heroic gear... well... not so easy.
... I've found leveling tanks, like leveling support, to be both frustrating and annoying. Sometimes I don't bother making a character into a tank until 40.
Some of my "tank" builds can absolutely destroy content, but still get tossed around like wet rags in alerts sometimes while leveling. E.g. Earth with Defiance.
Meanwhile I have no experience that suggests, across multiple characters, that Conviction does nothing at all.
Would it be possible for you to do a couple screenshots maybe? I have trouble believing that it's doing NOTHING for you, but maybe you have a bugged version or something.
Here's the thing - if you'd said up front or after some posts, that Con felt better for you... no problem! That's an opinion. You might try a Strength tank again at 40 and you may change your mind, or not.
Saying that others who are suggesting that STR primary can tank need to learn to play is being unnecessarily argumentative. People post on these boards to help, not to be insulted.
Tanking in CO isn't really that complicated, and there are threads and blog posts via Google about how to be a good tank in CO.
It mostly comes down to:
Have a defensive passive (usually), have a source for Challenging Strikes and Crippling Challenge, consider taking Protector spec (particularly for tanking in hybrid mode); and have enough attacks to beat up the mobs.
AND - have a mix of some of the following: Defense (the stat); damage resist (e.g. Invuln or Defiance); Dodge - and *everyone* tends to have at least around 37% or more dodge from their end-game gear. Silver Champion Recognition gear is not hard to earn at 40, and will open your eyes about a lot of possibilities. And Healing.
The fact that you are ignoring the value of Dodge tells me you haven't enough experience with 40s.
Dodge is *great*.
Unfortunately, it's kind of oddly done.
Dodge is your % chance to "get a dodge", and Avoidance is the amount of damage you don't take when you dodge. Also - 40 gear gives you a LOT of Avoidance. It's WAY more helpful at 40 than before that unless you're lucky enough or wealthy enough to get avoid gear earlier.
Dodge - without proper gear - feels pretty sad. But then, Lightning Reflexes can be fantastic.
It's possible to get more than 100% dodge (e.g. Masterful Dodge), but hard to get 100% Avoidance.
Dodge + Invuln makes for a very powerful tanking spec.
Also, don't expect your healer to save you. The tank needs to save themselves, in this game. Except maybe in instance runs.
Anyway, this is a bit rambling but might help point you in the right direction...
The thing is, I know this game is weird. I know it's been neglected by its own developers in favor of other games with more recognizable intellectual properties, and because of that we don't have balanced powersets. We only have what people have worked out to be the best powers for certain roles.
I can't play that way. My mind will not accept taking only the powers that every tank has. I am a role-playing concept player: If I want a super-strong tank, then he's going to have Might powers and other powersets can go hang. This may sound crazy to you, but it's conducive to my mental health, and that's the only thing important to me.
You shouldn't have to take the same build and the same powers that every other tank in the game has, in order to be a good tank for your friends and teammates. You should be able to be a good tank even if you're a Might build, an Ice build, a Power Armor build... you shouldn't be required to take Power X,Y, Z, A, B, C, Q, J and R in order to tank.
And endgame tanking. Who said I wanted to tank Gravitar? I think Gravy Train is one of the worst villains in this game. She shouldn't be an endgame boss; she should be someone you wipe the floor with around level 30. Firewing, now THERE'S a good endgame boss. Or Menton, the world's most powerful psionic. Or Invictus! Gravitar??? She has no history in the Champions universe and her 6th edition stats look like she was put together to be the equivalent of the D&D Tarrasque, e.g. Just Another Big Monster To Frighten Your Players With. Whoop-de-fraggin'-doo. I seriously couldn't tank her. She's beneath my contempt. (And yes, she might be THE endgame boss. I'm a roleplayer. I couldn't tank her with a straight face. I mean, seriously.)
"My attention does not so much wander, as it takes long vacations to foreign locales and meets strange women that leave it crying and broken in the hot, hot sun." :cool:
Thing is, you're *not* required to take powers x, y, and z to tank.
You can range-tank, melee-tank, or whatever else you want.
One of my poison characters is a Con / Int / I forget with Defiance and Ice Form. Crippling challenge is on the lunge, challenging strikes on Thunderclap. She tanks just fine.
You *are* pretty much required to take Crippling Challenge on a power - melee, ranged, whatever you want - and Challenging Strikes on at least one power. Those are the only auto-taunts in the game.
You typically should have:
a block. Good ones are: Force Shield / Force Sheath; Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness; Energy Shield / Laser Knight; and Parry / The Elusive Monk.
Might's Retribution is ... okay.
If it works for you - great. Blocking in general is rather odd, and not very RP.
Thing is, and believe me, I'm an old-school Champs player from WAY back (boxed set anyone?)... this is NOT really "Champions Online" in anything but, um, flavor text. Sure, we've kinda got some of the stats... but character building here is VERY very different from the RPG.
You should have some damage powers.
You should have some defensive powers.
It really is wide open.
You want Con as your primary, with Str secondary? Solid choice for tanking.
That said, play style is everything johnandre1. If a CON tank feels better to you, there's nothing wrong with that!
However, when I suggested STR PSS, it wasn't to push you toward higher DPS. It's because of the reasons others have posted above:
- stacking CON gives high Defense from Juggernaut
- more health from STR with Swole
- more crit severity from SSS (like the stacked CON) with Brutality (remember crits are for some heals too, like Conviction and Resurgence)
- melee attack energy discount from Physical Peak
IMHO, the STR spec tree is a better defensive option than CON if you're stacking CON. You can absolutely make the CON tree work though.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!