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PvP/Acclaim - Attention Desperately Needed

oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
edited May 2014 in PTS - The Archive
With the coming device balance, which I am all for, I have hope's that more people will give PvP a shot. However, as many have said time and time again, all incentive to even try PvP was robbed from CO with the release of On Alert. Why? What was the reasoning? Acclaim is 100% out-dated now. There are only TWO (2) gear items that acclaim can purchase and both items are worthless compared to Legion gear. Before On Alert, the best gear was only gained via Acclaim and PvP participation.

Realizing that adding new PvP gear might be too complex for this dev team, the easiest solution is to replace acclaim with Questionite and get rid of the cobweb-covered Hero Game Vendors completely. But this is the lazy solution.

I would prefer Acclaim was worthwhile, I.E. that there was gear worth obtaining with it. Some most basic ideas would be to make the current 2 gear items 4 slot instead of 3. Allow us to purchase R9 mods for high amounts of acclaim. Bring back PvP devices like the particle sniper rifle. Maybe secondary gear similar to Armadillo armor that boost penetration, crowd control/hold resistance, & stealth site that when combined boost defense by 25%.

Another idea, with the introduction of Justice gear, add a loot table to to the defeat of other players in Hero Games that has a chance to drop a new lockbox for it. Something like this would really help boost the PvP playerbase, much like it was a year ago before On Alert hit and killed the HG Vendor rewards.

If anyone has ideas to contribute, feel free.

EDIT: Acclaim is so neglected & worthless that it's not even listed on the "Currencies" tab.
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Post edited by oobtree on
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Comments

  • yinjeighyinjeigh Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I'd love to see slotted Power Replacers. Bring back Power Replace for Acclaim, but updated with the current mod/fusion system so they'll actually be useful when up against Legion/Vig gearing.
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  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    PWE could easily revive pvp by offering some real incentive to play. So here is my proposal:

    1. XP buff- For every 10 matches played, players would recieve a 2 hour double xp buff. This buff cannot stack on top of any residual double xp buffs left over from double xp weekends.

    2. Drifter Salvage- For every 5 matches played, players would recieve 1 drifter salvage. This would work in concert with an expansion to the Drifter Store. If lockboxes and keys are the new econmonic standard, then the Drifter Store should reflect that. Add unique costume pieces, the gear ubtri mentioned, some action figures, 4 slot PvP gear, mods, catalysts, etc. Put in something that would attract everyone who collects or is a completionist. Encourage roleplayers to participate by adding Drifter Store emotes. Some new things for PvE players as well. This would increase the volume of traffic for both AT and Unrestricted PvP, especially at the lower tier levels, and would (hopefully) increase the number of PvP players in the long term.

    If PWE/Cryptic want to revive PvP, it isn't really that hard. It simply needs to be incentivized.
  • oldmansupermanoldmansuperman Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Rofl, who cares about pvp in this game xD only fools and degenerates play it now, not worth spending a fraction of our devs time on such people.

    Better add more emotes please! We even have an emote tab in store but there are only situational dances there...
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Drifter Salvage- For every 5 matches played, players would recieve 1 drifter salvage.

    I can dig that. With 1 AP/CS played, players would recieve 1 drifter salvage.
    Because we know that forced PvP isn't fun.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,993 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I don't enjoy PvP. It would be even more of a turn off if there was really high end stuff I could only obtain by participating in something of absolutely no interest. I believe there should always be multiple paths to get to the same prizes.
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  • keikomystkeikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Fools and degenerates? I'm going to go wish for the ability to punch someone over TCP/IP now. No other CO community should ever write off another community as a waste of time. Ever.

    Really, though. PvP needs help, and with the device balance coming up it may finally have a chance to get back up on its feet. The return of Power Replacers would be nice, better gear in the Acclaim Vendors. Drifter salvage for every 5 matches would be wonderful too.
  • yinjeighyinjeigh Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Rofl, who cares about pvp in this game xD only fools and degenerates play it now, not worth spending a fraction of our devs time on such people.

    Better add more emotes please! We even have an emote tab in store but there are only situational dances there...

    Uhm..Wow, that's a strong opinion you have there. Just wondering, though..If you aren't into PvP, why bother bringing your toxicity onto this post that's clearly about PvP?!
    Wouldn't it make more sense to post on one of the many emote request threads? You'd make fewer enemies that way for sure...

    lafury, good idea with the salvage. It'd be a nice save for those cases in Zombies where the last hero standing dies outside of the ring and cuts everyone's acclaim too. Maybe a completed Zombies could grant a bit more, since it's more survival?
    3 for a completed cabin save maybe?

    Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some type of token conversion for Acclaim. Maybe Silver Rec ->Acclaim, so non-PvPers could just do Unity and still have access to Acclaim awards.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I am not a pvp champ by any means
    Still I used to level up new toons through hero games
    Acclaim should just be dumped as currency
    Use a currency already useful, like recog or Q
    No chance for salvage, folks--that stuff is lockbox only
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  • p0temk1np0temk1n Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    STO awards Dilithium for completing PvP dailies, so perhaps add PvP dailies that award Q tp CO? It would make the Hero Games more attractive for sure, and there's already precedent in other games for this type of reward.


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  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    p0temk1n wrote: »
    STO awards Dilithium for completing PvP dailies, so perhaps add PvP dailies that award Q tp CO? It would make the Hero Games more attractive for sure, and there's already precedent in other games for this type of reward.

    If there was a daily mission like what Lt. Patil offers for Alerts, but for PVPing instead, I still wouldn't PVP regularly, but I'd probably queue up a couple times a week. But not if the rewards were SCR/Vehicle Mods like the Custom Alert. :tongue:
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  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I appreciate everyone's input, and I even expected some trolling from the anti-PvP folk. Even though the trolling is unnecessary in a thread like this one. I just hope the devs recognize what has been done to PvP incentives and finally do something to right this situation.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Even the smallest of things would have a big effect on pvp. Pretty much all of the people who still pvp now and again have connections with many ex players so word will reach them about any changes which may bring them back, then if they find what has been done is good they'll bring more people back. Just anything at all done that could benefit the state of PvP in the slightest would benefit the health of all of the CO community.

    You'll find people who are against anything if you look carefully enough, it's always expected. :)

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  • shadowzero66shadowzero66 Posts: 331 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    yinjeigh wrote: »
    Rofl, who cares about pvp in this game xD only fools and degenerates play it now, not worth spending a fraction of our devs time on such people.

    Better add more emotes please! We even have an emote tab in store but there are only situational dances there...
    Uhm..Wow, that's a strong opinion you have there. Just wondering, though..If you aren't into PvP, why bother bringing your toxicity onto this post that's clearly about PvP?!
    Wouldn't it make more sense to post on one of the many emote request threads? You'd make fewer enemies that way for sure...
    He's got a point though. Updating Acclaim items/PvP rewards is simply throwing a steak into a pool of piranhas and telling people they should try to get it. It doesn't address the underlying issues that keep people away from PvP. Namely, there's the power tax issue; certain powers and devices become "must-haves" to be competitive. Freeform understandably makes such balancing very difficult if not an outright nightmare (though at the very least, the range should be narrowed).

    There is a huge gap between the hardcore PvPers and the casual PvPers. The first group is a small vocal minority of mostly longtime players that have not given up on PvP. The second group is larger and more fluid, mostly comprising of new players who PvP in other games; people who do thematic and/or RP PvP builds; and anyone who isn't paying the power tax of "must-haves" in full. Cookie-cutter builds do not make for an interesting PvP metagame and they get turned off when they see what CO's "high-end" PvP boils down to. The casuals who haven't given up have a difficult time finding similar people (appropriate challenge levels makes things more fun). I am of the belief that any future that CO PvP might have depends on the casual PvPers rather the hardcore PvPers. The hardcores will continue to grumble and whine but will stay unless PvP is outright removed, which isn't going to happen. Accommodating the casuals, especially those who are new players, would help with CO's player retention. But, hey, if the recent changes regarding device stacking are any indication of future buffs to game balance, then things don't look so bad. I'd especially love see Stronghold and Zombie Apocalypse back. And wasn't there an idea for private premade PvP where you could get nine other people together and know exactly who you'd fight against? Having that would be like the cliques the RPers have, but would work towards finding appropriate level fights.
    p0temk1n wrote: »
    STO awards Dilithium for completing PvP dailies, so perhaps add PvP dailies that award Q tp CO? It would make the Hero Games more attractive for sure, and there's already precedent in other games for this type of reward.
    A few years back, the STO devs had admitted that PvP there was broken and they wanted to fix that. Given the amount of love assigned to STO, I'm assuming PvP balance there has since been better. I haven't played STO in a long time, but I don't think they would be handing out Dilithium from PvP if they didn't fix the issues at least somewhat.

    Given the amount of resources allotted to CO along with its special considerations (freeform!), I can't see a dev coming out like that and taking on such a monumental task.

    They could make the Hero Games grant diminishing returns of Questionite Ore in the same way Gravitar does. But I'd prefer some sort of overall power balance pass to happen first.
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  • thelastsonofzodthelastsonofzod Posts: 658 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I'm not really a big pro PVP guy but I'd be okay with instituting some more PVP stuff ingame. It certainly can't hurt to allow some of that ingame. I think a Daily mission that awards Q, and maybe some new content would do well.

    As far as gear, I think players should be able to spend acclaim to buy PVP exclusive cores similar to what we have for PVE (Gambler's, Growth, Etc). That way players could use existing gear and mod it for use with PVP.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Ok I''ll start off with - in general PVP has been distasteful to me in most games I've played. I'm not anti-pvp at all, I just avoid it in general. That being said - if there were some type of reward, like Questionite, I'd be tempted to give it a try.

    It seems like a small but significant change that would give CO's anemic PvP queues a boost. Just look at what happens when a 'Nemesis Alert" queues up! If I had magic dev powers I'd already be coding 2k questionite drop dailies. I'm not sure how hard it would be - but it seems like a very wise idea.
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  • jerax1011jerax1011 Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I rarely PvP, and I think that the device tweaks are going to encourage casual PvPers to give it a try again. The idea of earning Drifter Salvage rather than out of lockboxes is something I can definitely get behind. There's always going to be a group of people that will flex their internet muscles and be a general pain when it comes to PvP. Accept that will never change, but I would never shut out a group of players just because I might not enjoy the game the same way they do. And as far as PvP only obtainable items/gear/costumes/whatevers... go for it! After playing WoW for years I had no issues with never getting the stuff from PvP. It's like saying that because I don't RP then there should never be anything like the emote packs or RP settings in a game... Different things appeal to and bring in different players.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jerax1011 wrote: »
    I rarely PvP, and I think that the device tweaks are going to encourage casual PvPers to give it a try again. The idea of earning Drifter Salvage rather than out of lockboxes is something I can definitely get behind. There's always going to be a group of people that will flex their internet muscles and be a general pain when it comes to PvP. Accept that will never change, but I would never shut out a group of players just because I might not enjoy the game the same way they do. And as far as PvP only obtainable items/gear/costumes/whatevers... go for it! After playing WoW for years I had no issues with never getting the stuff from PvP. It's like saying that because I don't RP then there should never be anything like the emote packs or RP settings in a game... Different things appeal to and bring in different players.

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  • mrf0rz1mrf0rz1 Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    First, an answer to that desperate call. Then further fixes.

  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The problem that the dev's would have to get around if they changed it so you get questionite instead of acclaim would be if the code to give acclaim and count it is too complicated just to change. It all depends on how it was originally programmed, if it is too complex just to switch over then they would have to completely remake it which wouldn't be worth their time and money especially not for PVP. Although to get around this I suppose they could create some sort of acclaim to questionite converter.

    lol found this meme while browsing, thought someone may find it funny linked to this thread. ;D I didn't post the image as it isn't really as on-topic as it could be: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBclnTqyQC4aL3d2d3PAXA-8bXagdL4iAb8re_W-7sUyPmuJsRoQ


    I sure do hope that they do hear these messages though, it's really interesting to see what people who don't PvP in CO think about it all.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I spent a few million stockpiled acclaim on gear and saw that gear become obsolete within weeks when On Alert hit so I have a bit of a hesitation regarding PvPing in CO again...even so, decent rewards and some balance work (the devices are a nice start) might very well get me back in the ring.

    Even if I was not inclined to PvP in CO I would wholeheartedly support some love being sent the way of the PvP community.

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  • rtmartma Posts: 1,199 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Would that mean I'll have a chance at PvP or not? cause no amount of incentive can compensate for all the mental anguish suffered over the years trying and dieing... considering unjust circumstances.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I've only ever enjoyed PvP PRE-On Alert.

    Why?

    As we all know, everyone more or less had some sort of fighting chance when it came to PvPing. EVEN ATs.

    I used to enjoy BASH, UTC and Zombpocalypse with Mentella as a Mind AT and would actually stand a fair chance of placing well on the tables at the end of a match.

    Now a days?

    PvP is mainly about a couple SGs fighting each other or being trolled by the other or SG wars or someone farming someone else.

    This is not to say there aren't a number of honourable PvPers who fight without discrimination.

    I reckon with the Device Balance it will be only a matter of time before *something* turns up to skew it again. -shrug-

    I've actually sat in on BASH Matches on Alara and Mentella, just casually watching PvP or dropping Ebon Sigils around myself for no apparent reason :tongue:

    I think incentive wise, the most viable/likely way to attract PvPers would be a change in rewards (as previously mentioned).

    Perhaps a combination of G, Drifter's Salvage or Questionite?

    But then, you have to consider how far would -some- go to win that extra bit of salvage or Q? If someone is desperate for an RL Ego Boost AND Q they are likely going to farm one "weak" opponent over and over just to get kill scores.

    I am personally more of a team player, if I was going to PvP, which is why I enjoy Stronghold, KoTH and UTC (even though I suck at it harder than anyone in CO).

    I reckon requirements for PvP Queues is another issue, most larger scale maps require a number of people who generally aren't present in enough numbers to start competing matches. Not to mention various bugs within PvP itself.

    Power balance is just one of those things which I now class as a "feature" of PvP in CO. Some people are great builders and can make builds which are nigh unkillable and output serious DPS. I doubt it will be fixed or resolved ever. A shame really but nothing can be done.

    Some powers and in some cases entire mechanics have been altered (to put it lightly) for PvP.

    I would support PvP being loved, it might even incline me to venture into PvP on a regular basis.

    Now that my entire account is level 40s it would give me something to do.
  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Possibly one of the best things they could do to BASH is somehow make it so it keeps the scores people get and then the amount of questionite you get isn't based upon winning by getting 10 kills but instead is based upon each separate kill you get. The amount of questionite would be shared by all the people who are said to have got the kill. Then by using the system of remembering the score's of people, some people are worth considerably more questionite than others, killing a level 35 AT would give like nothing but killing someone like green machine in BASH would give a large amount of questionite. Of course this amount would be shared so ganking the better players with 9 to 1 may not be the best idea.

    This would fix many problems there are in BASH, but it's not likely that it would be implemented into the game as it would take some work to do it.
  • shadowzero66shadowzero66 Posts: 331 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Power balance is just one of those things which I now class as a "feature" of PvP in CO. Some people are great builders and can make builds which are nigh unkillable and output serious DPS. I doubt it will be fixed or resolved ever. A shame really but nothing can be done.

    I feel that power balance is the underlying issue. It might be why AT PvP still pops up from time to time whereas Unrestricted is deader than disco. I'm going to get a lot of flack for this but is it really important that doing PvP grant some tangible reward? Yeah, it'd be nice if you got something for doing something you enjoy, but if you really enjoy it, you'd still do it anyway. The game was built primarily as a PvE MMORPG game with various things tacked onto it as an afterthought because it was "cool", "trendy", or "all the big games are doing it"... and Cryptic can barely get the first part right without bugs everywhere (you can argue that CO is really a dressing room program with a glorified chat room, but even that is full of bugs). Can you imagine if the RPers acted the same way and demanded the same (nevermind how it would be implemented)? Granted Crpytic shot themselves in the foot in the first place by giving rewards for doing Hero Games and not continuing to work on fine-tuning PvP power balance...
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  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    ...It might be why AT PvP still pops up from time to time whereas Unrestricted is deader than disco.

    False. Unrestricted is the most active of the two. Evidence contrary to your issues of power balance. Unfortunately the broken queue system is a big part of Hero Games hardly popping.

    I will concede that some powers are naturally better than others. For example, how many Active Offenses' boosts your chance to dodge attacks? Just one. There is a short list of utility/heal powers that perform or even offer a means of survival. These same powers are equally as used in PvE as they are in PvP. Power Balance is a separate issue and not the topic of this thread.
    I'm going to get a lot of flack for this but is it really important that doing PvP grant some tangible reward? Yeah, it'd be nice if you got something for doing something you enjoy, but if you really enjoy it, you'd still do it anyway.

    I play CO PvP because I enjoy it. But it wasn't but a little over a year ago when Hero Games offered rewards for Acclaim earned. Then On Alert came along and, for some reason, G. Crush did his best to rob Acclaim of being worthwhile. How is this fair to customers, and why has this issue been ignored?
    Can you imagine if the RPers acted the same way and demanded the same (nevermind how it would be implemented)?

    I'm not sure what RPers to do with this thread. Troll bait?
    PvP is as much of an aspect as PvE in most successful MMO games out today and there is a customer base for it, a base that has the potential to grow just as strong as the PvE base if Cryptic tried improving this situation.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I feel that power balance is the underlying issue.

    It is an issue, but I wouldn't say it is a cause for PvP (solely) being the way it is. I think the issue is variety and diversity of builds in PvP.

    If a bog standard 2GM/AoPM/MD/BCR/FG/EB/SR + Ice Nades is going to make sure you are nigh unkillable and outputting serious DPS. The question is why go for something different? Unless it is equally deadly?
    It might be why AT PvP still pops up from time to time whereas Unrestricted is deader than disco.

    Queue System is an issue in game as a whole and affects PvP as well. Unrestricted pops a lot more (from what I can see) than AT does, since I've actually been in a few of them.
    I'm going to get a lot of flack for this but is it really important that doing PvP grant some tangible reward?

    Even though I am -clearly- not an avid PvPer I think not only does it deserve some love but it is entirely possible. I mean for crying out loud the most unloved set in CO (power wise) got some love, namely Telepathy. So if -THAT- can get something why not PvP? PvP is a lot more popular than Telepathy, so I reckon it should. No point building and spending time acquiring gear for PvP if all you get is a basic RL Ego Boost.
    Yeah, it'd be nice if you got something for doing something you enjoy, but if you really enjoy it, you'd still do it anyway.
    Can you imagine if the RPers acted the same way and demanded the same (nevermind how it would be implemented)?

    Rewards from doing something you enjoy never hurt anyone. (Since you bring RP into this I'll bite..) As an RPer, when Cryptic removed all the crafting areas which doubled up as RP locations from time to time, it was a big shock and we have got -some- places back.

    Based on your reasoning would it be fair to suddenly remove every single RP instance in game and tell RPers (like myself) that if we really enjoy RP we shouldn't care if those places are no longer in existence? Would the RP community take that? Like hell we would. RP doesn't need to be brought up again in this thread. It will only start an unnecessary fire in the long run.
    The game was built primarily as a PvE MMORPG game with various things tacked onto it as an afterthought because it was "cool", "trendy", or "all the big games are doing it"

    That's nice, but we are not dealing with the past of how the game was "originally built" rather we are dealing with the current state of PvP, which as established, needs help.
    Granted Crpytic shot themselves in the foot in the first place by giving rewards for doing Hero Games and not continuing to work on fine-tuning PvP power balance...

    Power Balance is just one of those things in PvP which is a difficult to almost impossible task to accomplish. Unless they removed any and all types of damage modifiers including ranged damage bonuses, crit chance and severity, offense, stat boosting and passives and anything at all which boosted damage. And had everyone crawling along at the same level.

    Even then there would be power differences. Powers all do different things, to try and balance them would be like trying to make a naturally tall child the same height as a much shorter one by squashing or crushing them down (extreme example I know but I think what I am trying to say is pretty much clear, it's a difficult area to go into, like a quagmire).

    PvP wasn't -that- bad in my estimation before On Alert. Before On Alert the worst thing ever (from what I remember) was Maintained Holds (RIP) and Imbue + Enrage + AoPM Cascaders.

    Nerf was cried and Crowd Control in CO died off. As did that other popular combination.

    When mechanics and power combinations are killed off due to repeated use or exploitation uses in PvP, it affects PvE as well. Nerfing or balancing powers like 2GM doesn't just affect PvPers, it would affect, RPers and PvEers.

    An example would be Maintained Holds. Ego Storm with Manevolent Manifestation used to be -great- it was the Mind AT's (which I used at the time) main source of DPS and controlling power.

    It was also abused in PvP. Nerf was cried and the power was snapped, crippled and bound up in a massive cast called Incapacitates. This affected the Mind AT, it's popularity was already low and it just dropped lower after this change.

    Just saying, think twice before asking for balance. Unless there is a plan to make a list of PvP powers and a list of PvE powers which are separate from each other entirely, asking for PvP nerfs and balances can have other impacts elsewhere.
  • lovehammer1lovehammer1 Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Yes, PVP needs attention.
    However, those calling for a spike in new blood in this area are S.O. L.!
    Until there is a way for the causal, concept, PVP first timers to feel they are not being farmed or that their build has a least a fighting chance... new folks will continue to stay away, no matter what incentives you throw at them.

    The device change will help a little, but it's not like those devices will be going away.
    People need to understand, they will have them. Stacking the same ones will no longer be an option. I still think people can slot 5 different devices. Sigh... Anyway, as for giving people PVP specific gear? No. This will create more divide for those that want to join a match and get their feet wet and those looking to farm and destroy them. Q or Salvage, costume pieces might work because everyone can use those rewards whether you pvp or pve.

    New maps wouldn't hurt either. People like new things. Might get folks to peek in a few times.
    But really, it's about power balance. If you don't conform to at least 4 pvp standard powers it will be very difficult to stay around very long. Dashing the hopes of your favorite hero/build that you love coming back to a pvp match. I heard way too much of this from friends trying to play hero games.

    Something needs to be done. If we want CO to grow, every aspect of it must be looked at and made player (PVE+PVP) friendly IMHO.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Yes, PVP needs attention.

    But really, it's about power balance. If you don't conform to at least 4 pvp standard powers it will be very difficult to stay around very long. Dashing the hopes of your favorite hero/build that you love coming back to a pvp match. I heard way too much of this from friends trying to play hero games.

    Something needs to be done. If we want CO to grow, every aspect of it must be looked at and made player (PVE+PVP) friendly IMHO.

    Too be honest - I've never played a game where there weren't "optimal PvP" builds. I suck at pvp and am not interested in much. However, we must be realistic. PvP is a "War Zone". So those with superior tactics and tough builds are going to win. I don't see how you can make it so that someone with an average build they love is going to be on equal footing with a veteran.

    That's like me stepping into the ring with a WWE Champion and expecting to win. It's a nice fantasy but it ain't gonna happen.
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    riverocean wrote: »
    Too be honest - I've never played a game where there weren't "optimal PvP" builds. I suck at pvp and am not interested in much. However, we must be realistic. PvP is a "War Zone". So those with superior tactics and tough builds are going to win. I don't see how you can make it so that someone with an average build they love is going to be on equal footing with a veteran.

    That's like me stepping into the ring with a WWE Champion and expecting to win. It's a nice fantasy but it ain't gonna happen.

    Hm this is true, but you have to remember that people don't put their all in while playing against someone who seems new. You only really feel a players full strength in pvp if you yourself are playing with a build that can kill them easily and wont die so easily and have a name for yourself. This is when people start rotating MD and ascension and spamming EM with teleport and smoke grenade for perma stealth.

    I think there is a fighting chance there, the problem is it will always be best for new players to start out as tanks. The problem is with being a tank is that personally I find it much less fun, although technically until I get my respec I am a 'tank.'

    You do have a good point here though, most of the people who do PvP have been doing it for a while and many at the moment have played PvP from the start. A big problem is still the little war's that have always been going on from the start, it's pretty much the same rivals fighting it out in a never ending battle while some other confused people stand around wondering what's what. :)
  • forrksakesexcoforrksakesexco Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Zombie apocalypse - the more chaotic the situation the more likely it is that non PVP builds can pull off the odd win. Used to be that this was farmed back in the day!
    Sigh wouldn't mind dipping my toe into PVP again - ****** On Alert.
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  • lovehammer1lovehammer1 Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    riverocean wrote: »
    Too be honest - I've never played a game where there weren't "optimal PvP" builds. I suck at pvp and am not interested in much. However, we must be realistic. PvP is a "War Zone". So those with superior tactics and tough builds are going to win. I don't see how you can make it so that someone with an average build they love is going to be on equal footing with a veteran.

    That's like me stepping into the ring with a WWE Champion and expecting to win. It's a nice fantasy but it ain't gonna happen.
    Good points made. What i should of said was... If you want "New" players, maybe make a "Bash map (New) that's from lvl 30-35.

    I think without maxed out min/max builds, people might feel like they have a chance.
    If they feel they are ready to deal with the "Dirty dancers" who use every trick and device in the book, they can do so with the lvl 40 bash we have now.

    Just a thought.
  • strypewolvenstrypewolven Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I would enjoy seeing pvp get some love as well. I am more of casual when it comes to pvp.

    I used to pvp a bit before on alert. Granted I did not take losses well and I admit freely that I tended to rage. This obviously resulted in me being farmed and ridiculed until I just finally quit. I admit I brought a good bit of that on myself.

    Getting a bit off-topic here. The point I wish to make is that I felt ready to try pvp again with a fresh mindset, sadly between the "device games" (which is being addressed yay) and general disinterest. There is little interest for me to get back into it.

    Here is to hoping pvp and all other aspects get some much needed love.
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    never, in the like 14 years I've been playing mmos, have I seen such a major component of a video game so willfully neglected. PVP is not a niche, pvp is important for every mmo that's ever existed. It's one version of endgame we have, and in CO, the ONLY version of endgame we have. You'd get (and I remember when pvp had good rewards, this was absolutely true) about a 10th of the people complaining about the lack of endgame as we do right now, if you just put it back to some semblance of real rewards. Hell, pvp is even self maintaining, which is good when we get about 20 minutes of new content every 2 months, that goes away in 2 weeks. In the interrim, a ton of us would be just pvping to get that fix for something aside from the ENDLESS ALERT GRIND, but hell. It barely even brings any G.

    Sad, just sad. Pvp used to be the best thing about the game. We *intentionally* got a boost where pvp had the best gear in the game, and it made pvp casual and fun. Still got some top tier combat from time to time (bash especially), but anyone could go in and have fun. And I'm not asking for a return to that, giving pvpers the best gear. But hell, comparative rewards. I know we're never gonna see the lair pass, or anything else we've been promised to make endgame worth leveling a character past 30. However, not everyone likes alert grinding or 10 minute raids every 2 months. Or, altitis. I don't *need* to level another 40. I need something to do with the ones I already have. FFS, please fix pvp rewards that way we have something else to do.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    What about acclaim for wining duels though something would need to be added to detect a fraud >_>
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  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Just a retcon token award for a bash win or 20k acclaim would be good for a start.
  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    never, in the like 14 years I've been playing mmos, have I seen such a major component of a video game so willfully neglected. PVP is not a niche, pvp is important for every mmo that's ever existed. It's one version of endgame we have, and in CO, the ONLY version of endgame we have. You'd get (and I remember when pvp had good rewards, this was absolutely true) about a 10th of the people complaining about the lack of endgame as we do right now, if you just put it back to some semblance of real rewards. Hell, pvp is even self maintaining, which is good when we get about 20 minutes of new content every 2 months, that goes away in 2 weeks. In the interrim, a ton of us would be just pvping to get that fix for something aside from the ENDLESS ALERT GRIND, but hell. It barely even brings any G.

    Sad, just sad. Pvp used to be the best thing about the game. We *intentionally* got a boost where pvp had the best gear in the game, and it made pvp casual and fun. Still got some top tier combat from time to time (bash especially), but anyone could go in and have fun. And I'm not asking for a return to that, giving pvpers the best gear. But hell, comparative rewards. I know we're never gonna see the lair pass, or anything else we've been promised to make endgame worth leveling a character past 30. However, not everyone likes alert grinding or 10 minute raids every 2 months. Or, altitis. I don't *need* to level another 40. I need something to do with the ones I already have. FFS, please fix pvp rewards that way we have something else to do.

    Agreed with all of this comment. It's ridiculous CO's PvP has gone so far down hill and that no one in the company seems to give a crap... I mean, as a person with 4 level 40's (not much compared to a lot of people), I am so sick of PvE and how easy/boring it is. PvP is the true endgame for CO, at least it was before On Alert. Then G. Crush dropped the atomic bomb on PvP's incentives and ruined the Queue system...
  • nesnonesno Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Yea I really can't stand Gentleman Crush and his complete lack of involvement within the pvp portions of the game.

    His sitting in the PVP channel and trolling the pvp community by telling them that it's not going to be considered for any updates because A. It's not worth it and B. Because he doesn't like PVP was the point of break for me.

    Sounds like a true WOW rejected Dev to me.

    -
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    oobtree wrote: »
    With the coming device balance, which I am all for, I have hope's that more people will give PvP a shot. However, as many have said time and time again, all incentive to even try PvP was robbed from CO with the release of On Alert. Why? What was the reasoning? Acclaim is 100% out-dated now. There are only TWO (2) gear items that acclaim can purchase and both items are worthless compared to Legion gear. Before On Alert, the best gear was only gained via Acclaim and PvP participation.

    Realizing that adding new PvP gear might be too complex for this dev team, the easiest solution is to replace acclaim with Questionite and get rid of the cobweb-covered Hero Game Vendors completely. But this is the lazy solution.

    I would prefer Acclaim was worthwhile, I.E. that there was gear worth obtaining with it. Some most basic ideas would be to make the current 2 gear items 4 slot instead of 3. Allow us to purchase R9 mods for high amounts of acclaim. Bring back PvP devices like the particle sniper rifle. Maybe secondary gear similar to Armadillo armor that boost penetration, crowd control/hold resistance, & stealth site that when combined boost defense by 25%.

    If anyone has ideas to contribute, feel free.

    EDIT: Acclaim is so neglected & worthless that it's not even listed on the "Currencies" tab.
    aetzrt.png

    .
    first, I HATE PvP. Blame the A--holes in WOW world I was on.
    I do like Zombie apocalypse, if I get to be the zombie. Unfortunately, it does bad things to my heartrate, so I can't play it, much.(Up enough to give you arm tremors is probably not good)

    yes and a lot of players were only doing PVP for the gear, and being farmed by the actual PvP's. Leading to a lot of frustration because you HAD to do PvP to get the best gear, regardless iof whether you wanted to do PvP or Not.
    what exchange rate for converting to Q? since some people havebeen complaining of having a million acclaim and nothign to buy.

    The gear being specifically for PvP but NOT best in game, I have no problem with.
    As enough people have stated, there should be an equivalent to SCR gear for PvP.

    Not an equivalent of legion gear, SCR gear(PvE) is also worse than legion gear.

    who was it (female)who got forum banned for threats against CO/cryptic about hacking.
    their comment;(shortened)
    WE need a new PvP zone with the best gear in the game in it, so people will want to go there.
    admitting that some people were only going there for the gear
    sorry rambling, haven't had breakfast yet.
    But yes;
    Fix the queue PLEASE, new players want to try it and can't, old players want to play and can't. This is a serious breakdown of a part of the game.

    PvP needs its own gear(3 slot) with the right stats,a few mods flying around loose is no help.(I just post mine to anyone who wants them)

    vanity gear - costumes for PvP perks, eg.bronze, silver, gold costume sets. That you can buy with your points.

    put weapon skin unlocks back- those will get a lot of people in.

    a training level so people can go in with an experienced person and get lessons without a timer harrassing them or the other team serials splatting them

    what would be really nice, is a pick and mix list like in the PH training room,so a group can pick options for the match, each team picking 2 or 3options

    like enviro hazards, mobs-type and amount(hunt the mobs which dodging the other players), difficulty, timer, size of location, type of location

    or would that be too much like Foundry, basically a list of choices, so that all matches aren't the same.
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  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Updated the main post with:

    "Another idea, with the introduction of Justice gear, add a loot table to to the defeat of other players in Hero Games that has a chance to drop a new lockbox for it. Something like this would really help boost the PvP playerbase, much like it was a year ago before On Alert hit and killed the HG Vendor rewards."
  • cptcooltasticcptcooltastic Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You know what I would LOVE to see added to the PvP Vendors?

    POWER REPLACERS!

    How perfect would this be? Through combating other heroes and increasing your skill you're able to completely tweak out your abilities!

    Almost EVERYONE would jump in to do some PvP if it meant they could FURTHER customize their characters!

    They could add a few more small power slots next to your Passive Power slot. I would say 3 slots should do. In these slots you would be able to equip Power Replacers.

    For those that don'e remember these. Power Replacers consist of things that...

    Change your Might Attacks FX from Crushing to...
    -Fire Melee
    -Ice Melee
    -Toxic Melee
    -Dark Melee
    -Etc

    Changes your Electric Attacks Fx from Electric to...
    -Telekinetic Electricity
    -Celestial Electricity
    -Magical Electricity
    -Etc

    Power Replacers could be build to be EITHER FX changes only OR FX and Damage Type changes. If they are made to change damage type, the damage type should only split the over damage between the original damage type and the new damage type.
  • despairsrequiemdespairsrequiem Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    LoL as awesome as this thread is, and as good as these ideas are, and despite that even doing something like "changing the reward to Questionite" which would probably take like an hour of one of the devs time to implement (tops) we all know this thread isn't being looked at by anyone but us... Just us shouting in the wind :/
  • bloodx13bloodx13 Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Personally the best way in my opinion to get players back into pvp is to start with tier one and work your way up. I first started CO almost 4 years ago now and one of the first missions i got was for hero games. These beginner missions need updated and given more alluring rewards.

    If all we focus on is tier 4 pvp then we will never get any real boost in new players because most of us in tier 4 are vets who used to level 40s through pvp tier 1-4. So throwing a new guy into tier 4 is just going to get them slaughtered. Learning pvp tactics and what powers work with what all starts in the low tiers and rightfully so.

    A reward system for pvp in general would be great and i agree with what most of you had said suggestion wise for such a system but PvP needs more then that. PvP needs to be reworked from the bottom up and im not talking about freeform or power balance i'm talking about the simple stuff like the team pvp bug and adding the pvp currency to the currency tab.

    A lot of what PvP needs is very simple to implement and as a game design student who has friends in the field I can't help but see not doing some of these task as nothing but lazy.For example if one is to go and look at the hero game vendors there are a few things you will notice the first being only two pieces of gear, the second the outrageous price of that gear and third the fact that said gear is at every vendor. So the two primary gear pieces are found at the primary vendor and the secondary vendor, ya that's lazy. If the gear is primary it should only be at the primary vendor.

    I could go on a rant forever but we all know what has been done here and alot of it came with on alert. A lot of promises had been made to the pvp community to come with that update and as we know they didn't happen. We have every right to be upset about how we were treated but now there are some new devs and we shouldnt hold what other devs have done against them.

    All i'm saying is lets keep voicing our thoughts and ramblings and maybe cryptic north will give us a look. On the other hand maybe they won't but hey we are used to that right lol. Anyways sorry this post wasnt more fluid but hey its almost 5am so give me a break :).
  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Keep the feedback coming guys :smile:
  • oobtreeoobtree Posts: 1,067 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    p0temk1n wrote: »
    STO awards Dilithium for completing PvP dailies, so perhaps add PvP dailies that award Q tp CO? It would make the Hero Games more attractive for sure, and there's already precedent in other games for this type of reward.

    Right? But CO PvP is "neglected," or rather, hated by the devs? Not sure why COPvP is treated this way. True money whores who, years ago, deemed that "no money is to be made from our PvP system," or something. It's stupid. PvP in CO is very unique and fun, and should be promoted as such after some fixes are made. PvP is a cash-cow-pinata waiting to explode.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Give me questionite, and give me death!

    #PVPQUESTIONITE
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    PvP in CO will continue to be sad as long as you can make master of all trade builds so easily (you don't have to choose between offense, defense, healing, and energy management because you can have it all) and are forced to build a certain way to be viable. In a game that encourages creativity everywhere else, that's a shame. I doubt any incentive you throw at it will do much to make it popular.

    Dark Souls does PvP right. The game is pretty balanced, you can't make god mode characters at the PvP levels, and skill matters far more than build or gear. Creative building is actually viable and most decent PvPers like to experiment. Even watching battle of the builds or community events is exciting.

    PvP in CO is boring to watch. The same powers show up over and over and over and over. There is very little build variety and seems to be a battle of who can one-shot first. If I can't even stand to watch the videos posted in the hero game forums, there isn't any chance I'd actually participate. Especially when I can get a much better experience elsewhere.

    The devs need to balance the game or offer ridiculous rewards to encourage most people to bother with PvP in CO. And rewards aren't keeping the PvE players around, now are they.

    ...

    Curious, what does the CO PvP community do to encourage new people? Where are the channels with creative build showcases, PvP commentary, skill tutorials, and other things to draw interest? All of the videos I've seen do none of those things and only convince me to stay away.
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  • mrhinkypunkmrhinkypunk Posts: 1,569 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    PvP in CO will continue to be sad as long as you can make master of all trade builds so easily (you don't have to choose between offense, defense, healing, and energy management because you can have it all) and are forced to build a certain way to be viable. In a game that encourages creativity everywhere else, that's a shame. I doubt any incentive you throw at it will do much to make it popular.

    Dark Souls does PvP right. The game is pretty balanced, you can't make god mode characters at the PvP levels, and skill matters far more than build or gear. Creative building is actually viable and most decent PvPers like to experiment. Even watching battle of the builds or community events is exciting.

    PvP in CO is boring to watch. The same powers show up over and over and over and over. There is very little build variety and seems to be a battle of who can one-shot first. If I can't even stand to watch the videos posted in the hero game forums, there isn't any chance I'd actually participate. Especially when I can get a much better experience elsewhere.

    The devs need to balance the game or offer ridiculous rewards to encourage most people to bother with PvP in CO. And rewards aren't keeping the PvE players around, now are they.

    ...

    Curious, what does the CO PvP community do to encourage new people? Where are the channels with creative build showcases, PvP commentary, skill tutorials, and other things to draw interest? All of the videos I've seen do none of those things and only convince me to stay away.

    I must say I do agree with you on many of your points.

    ALTHOUGH there are still about 10 or so viable combo's in PvP damage wise, just people choose what works for them at the time and what they loose against. This is what creates the FOTM.

    Now if you mean my videos where I'm all about one shotting people then you don't seem to understand how easily I die. You know a fire AT? Yeah that's pretty much my defense right there, other than instead of having resistance to strafing run I only have resistance to ice grenades.

    Let me tell you, it is impossible to one shot someone if you go a tank. This is the reason why if you are a tank it is a must to use ebon ruin. You sort of contradicted yourself there.

    The problem for me is I currently only have one level 40, I'm leveling another which I am going to attempt a few things differently on. There are many problems with PvP, I think we need to sort those out before we make it so you get questionite from it although that would help get people into it.

    But remember this, the more people there are in PvP the more minds there are to think up the next FOTM meaning that the skills that people use changes. Basically the FOTM is just what counters the previous FOTM. The problem we have at the moment, until the dodge nerf comes out it is quarry or AOPM IDF builds all the way!
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Ow you should see invul+unbreakable now ;-p
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    It doesn't matter what you can or can't do in pvp. It doesn't matter what person Y thinks of it, and how person X disagrees with that. Fact is, persons A through N like pvp even with all its faults; hell, persons M and C kind of like it because of those faults.

    There are people who want to pvp. If people are managing to have fun with it despite the laundry list of complaints we all keep posting over and over, then those people should at least be able to farm the same thing everyone else is farming while doing their chosen activity.

    As long as they don't make it the best way to get something in the game then you don't have to worry about "non-pvpers" showing up, because they'll just keep farming it elsewhere and then no one will feel forced to pvp. On the other hand, you allow those people who actually want to pvp (again, despite that list of complaints we keep mentioning) to not feel like they are forced to do something else.

    Apparently PvP is some sort of weirdly seasoned fish soup that most people think is terrible. Despite that, there are still people who want to eat it, but for some reason bathroom access is restricted unless you eat pizza! So now we have to also find stomach space to eat pizza if we want to eat the fish soup... let everyone use the bathroom!

    Ew, fish soup :|
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