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  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    Not comic books ones but video games ones there are VERY BIG differences and diffrent rules apply but a super hero is a super hero ^__^
    Was having an argument with some buddies in game whos faster Flash or Sonic :P

    By that strained logic, Speedy Gonzales and the Roadrunner also apply as superheroes. But they're not. Superhero is a very specific genre as described here. Having a special power doesn't automatically qualify you for it, otherwise we'd be opening up the floodgates for some very harebrained proposals of who's a superhero, e.g.: "The Great Gazoo is a superhero as he can make anything happen for Fred and Barney!"

    Out of your examples, in order:

    Mario: Plumber in a fantasy world full of magic mushrooms. Not a superhero. Probably a washed-out druggy in real life.

    Simon Belmont: Vampire slayer. If he's a superhero, you'd have to count every other vampire slayer in fiction. So, no. He's not. His genre is horror.

    Mega Man: A robot in a futuristic world filled with robots. Nothing there makes him particularly special save that his actions are heroic. Standard post-Singularity sci-fi setting.

    Ryu: Martial artist in a martial arts tournament. NOT A SUPERHERO.

    Lara Croft: Genderswapped Indiana Jones. This is pulp fiction, not a superhero.

    Sonic the Hedgehog: Mischievous alien hedgehog from the Planet Mobius. Sci-fi combined with funny animals.
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,771 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    We're not toxic.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Actually, Mario was a carpenter, as seen in Donkey Kong when he was rescuing his girlfriend from a gorilla. The whole "plumber" idea didn't come about until he started eating mushroom and chasing spiked turtles through the sewers (and if you started eating some of those mushrooms, you'd probably wind up seeing weird things in the sewers too!).
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013

    Ryu: Martial artist in a martial arts tournament. NOT A SUPERHERO.

    A super hero to one is a bloke in karate kid jimjams to another ^__^

    But in Ryu's defense he does have supernatural powers he isnt just a martial artist he is able to channel his chi energy use it to fling fireballs and move faster than a normal human , theres a reason they did Marvel vs Capcom. Cause Ryu fighting Iron Man is pure win :D

    If you want to see the extent of Ryu and Akuma's power read the comic "Final Ryu" ( its a rather good book that verifies that Akuma/Ryu link we all new was going on :P )

    But stories of humans doing feats of daring do with insane powers have been about since well you could say the ancient greeks . The " Super hero" concept isnt something just confined to the comic books ^.^
    Also you forgot Lara isnt just an Indy gender swap she has Batman levels of money..... lots of cash the ultimate super power. Gad that last bit pretty much sums up CO it so pay to win :D

    A new thread needs started to talk this stuff out ima liking this talk =^.^=
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I have been to a game forum that openly tolerates and even promotes racism, extreme prejudice and all manner of hate speech. That I call toxic. This forum community is nowhere near that in comparison.
  • forrksakesexcoforrksakesexco Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I'm feeling pretty toxic atm...
    Did a smash earlier and noticed I had a lorra aggro and there didn't seem to be much coming from my team mates. Checks roster and 2 x 6s, an 8 and a 12 + my level 23/24 blade. Beats feet! What a ****ing waste of time!
    But hey we get this alert bull**** shoved down our throats whenever we roll a toon so suprise suprise a load of noobs think this is the way to play. I could go on but I think it was already said much much better.
    Can someone remind me of the keyboard command for checking teams, the faster I can identify a team of no hopers the faster I can GTFO.
    _____________
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
    About the @handle - it's a long story.
    Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Mega Man: A robot in a futuristic world filled with robots. Nothing there makes him particularly special save that his actions are heroic. Standard post-Singularity sci-fi setting.
    Small chime in but I suspect Astro boy would like to have a word or two with you on this one. :wink:
    Simon Belmont: Vampire slayer. If he's a superhero, you'd have to count every other vampire slayer in fiction. So, no. He's not. His genre is horror.
    Suspecting Blade and The Midnight Sons would also like to have a word with you on this.

    Nepht: I would say that, although one of the strongest people in his universe, Ryu is not a super-hero because he's barely a hero. He's in it to fight the world's strongest people and rarely goes out of his way to do the heroic thing. Heck, in most cases the "big bad" comes to him.

    forrksakesexco: The "O" key shows people's levels and can see through sidekicking. Hope this helps. :biggrin:
    2s9bzbq.jpg
    Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
  • forrksakesexcoforrksakesexco Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    O key O key O key O key O key O key O key O key.
    Thnx crosschan much appreciated.
    _____________
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
    About the @handle - it's a long story.
    Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Actually, Mario was a carpenter, as seen in Donkey Kong when he was rescuing his girlfriend from a gorilla. The whole "plumber" idea didn't come about until he started eating mushroom and chasing spiked turtles through the sewers (and if you started eating some of those mushrooms, you'd probably wind up seeing weird things in the sewers too!).

    Druggies usually can't hold stable jobs. So he became a plumber after he lost his carpentry job for doing shrooms.
    nepht wrote: »
    A super hero to one is a bloke in karate kid jimjams to another ^__^

    But in Ryu's defense he does have supernatural powers he isnt just a martial artist he is able to channel his chi energy use it to fling fireballs and move faster than a normal human , theres a reason they did Marvel vs Capcom. Cause Ryu fighting Iron Man is pure win :D

    Like I said, supernatural powers isn't enough to claim the mantle of superhero. Some actual superheroes don't even have superhuman powers.

    And as Crosschan has highlighted, I've never seen Ryu do anything outside of martial arts tournaments.

    So again, not a superhero.
    crosschan wrote: »
    Small chime in but I suspect Astro boy would like to have a word or two with you on this one. :wink:

    I never followed Astroboy, so meh.
    Suspecting Blade and The Midnight Sons would also like to have a word with you on this.

    Belmont's not in a world where alien invasions and mad scientists with robot armies exist alongside vampires. Blade and the Midnight Sons are.
  • gingervitosgingervitos Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Would have to disagree with sis on Ryu he is an anti-hero he has a well known evil streak. If we are talking what of the Streetfighters are heroes I'd say its Guile he goes out of his way to smite evil. I would not say Video game heroes are super but they are very similar and have taken a lot from their comic cousins. Some heroes like Batman actually do both. I actually like video game heroes more than I like comic ones they don't tend to be as black and white as their comic cousins.
    The difference is in games YOU play the hero and in comics you read about other people doing the hero s$%t.

    Though I must add Ryu, Sonic and Mega Man have ongoing popular comic books so those 3 CAN be classed as comic book characters.

    1359646636.jpg

    Its a blurred line these days.

    Also if we can have a discussion like this about comic vs video game heroes without going "your mom" it shows we are very far from toxic.

    Git Gud M8!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Cause I'm worth it. Playing since 2009.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Let's just regard them as "heroes" and call it a day shall we? Each of the mentioned character is a hero in their own right. The point of a hero is to stand up against overwhelming odds and overcome them. A lot of the time a powerful villain is involved. Megaman, Simon Belmont, Mario, Sonic...they all have that quality.

    The term "superhero" clearly is used to describe comic book characters derived from the Superman blueprint, and comic books that feature characters who stray away from that blueprint (for e.g., no tights costume, anti-hero type) while existing in the lore setting that is built on superheroes are still considered superhero comic books.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    It should be noted further (before it's brought up again) that superhero comics are a subgenre of comic books - four-color pics between slick covers do not a superhero make. (I'll grant you that Jughead Jones' eating powers seem to be on a par with Matter-Eater Lad's, at least as far as edibles are concerned, but Archie is not a superhero comic. Even if there was a rather silly Punisher crossover once.)
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    And here we go...

    Sorry, Sonic the Hedgehog is as much a Superhero as Batman is a Fantasy Character.

    But, call it what you want. I don't really care that much, just don't be surprised when your own definition doesn't make sense to 99% of the population.

    Just appearing in comics alone does not make one a superhero. I do not consider GI Joe or Transformers superheroes.
  • gingervitosgingervitos Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So what we saying none of our toons are actually super heroes because CO is a video game? Because thats whats being said. Sort of self defeating our own heroes here arnt we.
    My toon not being a super hero suits me fine video game heroes are much more fun and can kick a lot more arse. The body count in Plok is in the hundreds.

    We can't claim our video game character is a super hero and turn round in the same breath and say SUPER Mario is not.

    Git Gud M8!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Cause I'm worth it. Playing since 2009.
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Archie is not a superhero comic. Even if there was a rather silly Punisher crossover once.)

    The Punisher wasn't the only superhero to crossover with Archie.

    teenarch.jpg
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • trailturtletrailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited September 2013
    ... wait, are those roboticized Knuckles, Amy and Shadow?

    Anyway, I'm of the opinion that superhero is a nebulous genre like "FPS puzzler" -- Half-Life may have some of the same elements, but we can look at it and say it doesn't quite fit, while Portal does. Genres are always going to bleed into each other, it's mostly what genre the creator intends it to be.
  • gingervitosgingervitos Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The Punisher wasn't the only superhero to crossover with Archie.

    teenarch.jpg

    What in the world. Next thing you know we'd have some stupid stuff like Phineas and Ferb teaming up with The Avengers.

    Phineas_and_Ferb_-_Mission_Marvel_(Marvel_Movies_Wikia).jpg

    I hate this world.

    Git Gud M8!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Cause I'm worth it. Playing since 2009.
  • wethree1wethree1 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So what we saying none of our toons are actually super heroes because CO is a video game? Because thats whats being said. Sort of self defeating our own heroes here arnt we.
    My toon not being a super hero suits me fine video game heroes are much more fun and can kick a lot more arse. The body count in Plok is in the hundreds.

    We can't claim our video game character is a super hero and turn round in the same breath and say SUPER Mario is not.

    Ok, WOW!!!

    1) When I tried to quote this post on the forums it made me re-log on to the forums and it took me TWICE to Neverwinter marketing pages with scantily clad dark elves until I just closed my browser and re-opened it O_O. Capitalism, but DAMN!

    2) As I've said, I'm playing TSW because, well, it's breathing (perhaps in an undead way), but, while I am undeniably a hero and superhuman, I AM NOT A SUPERHERO in that game.

    There is a difference. Cape, underwear outside, spandex tights optional, but NOT ALL THREE!

    And if I can't wade through oceans of minions and murders of lieutenants at high levels to get to the Supervillain who is my equal or the equal of my Supergroup, well, I'm a sidekick. At best.

    Love you Nepht. But, no.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    wethree1 wrote: »

    Love you Nepht. But, no.

    What was that about this forum being toxic? I've seen Wethree posts quite a few times and he is never toxic always nice even in disagreement, always a good thing.
    You can tell who is nice and who isnt in the WAY people disagree with each other.

    .... and whos just a yes man that agrees with anything I say looking at you Ginge U_U"

    Nepotism is never cool. Or should that be NEPHTotism :P
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited September 2013
    Slow, sarcastic clap for Nepht.

    Way to blow up the thread. :P

    And no, those guys aren't superheroes.
    biffsig.jpg
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Slow, sarcastic clap for Nepht.

    Way to blow up the thread. :P

    And no, those guys aren't superheroes.

    Trust my nemesis Smack to see through my derail ._."

    The thread was asking for it I mean this really is the happiest most friendly of all the mmo forums to call it Toxic is just BS.
    Yes theres doom and gloom ( Finn manages that and still gets a laugh ) but its a lot less than other forums.

    But read back the last few pages its been mostly friendly ENJOYABLE discussion a rare thing on game forums these days. It might have been a derail but it served to prove a point. Try haveing the Video Game Super hero discussion on comic vine I double dare you :D
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Slow, sarcastic clap for Nepht.

    Way to blow up the thread. :P

    And no, those guys aren't superheroes.

    IWarnedYou.jpg?psid=1
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited September 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    Trust my nemesis Smack to see through my derail ._."

    The thread was asking for it I mean this really is the happiest most friendly of all the mmo forums to call it Toxic is just BS.
    Yes theres doom and gloom ( Finn manages that and still gets a laugh ) but its a lot less than other forums.

    But read back the last few pages its been mostly friendly ENJOYABLE discussion a rare thing on game forums these days. It might have been a derail but it served to prove a point. Try haveing the Video Game Super hero discussion on comic vine I double dare you :D

    Oh, I agree. Of all the MMO communities I've been a part of, this one is definitely the most friendly.
    biffsig.jpg
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited September 2013
    ...

    No worries, I come prepared.

    holygrail189.jpg
    biffsig.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    No worries, I come prepared.

    holygrail189.jpg
    Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceedest directly to three. Five is right out!
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    While some of CO's playerbase have their moments, much like most the internet communities, I don't really see a lot of toxicity. That isn't to say it doesn't exist, zone chat often spirals out of control as trolls try to out troll each other with their attempts at being clever.

    As for the developers, I've only seen a few times where someone has been out right disrespectful to them, and most of the time it was from someone who had become frustrated waiting for help resolving a problem. Sometimes harsh, yet truthful, criticism is necessary to open a companies eyes, but that isn't being toxic.

    Not everything needs to be sugarcoated or politically correct. Occasionally a slap to the back of the head is needed as a wake up call. (Just watch NCIS, it works for Gibbs all the time)
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You guys keep talking, but every time I see this thread all I hear is this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqKZ_WIK5ms
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You guys keep talking, but every time I see this thread all I hear is this:....

    and all I picture in my head is this:

    toxic-avenger-3-1989-01-g.jpeg

    .
    _______________________
    ---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
  • wethree1wethree1 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    cgta1967 wrote: »
    and all I picture in my head is this:

    toxic-avenger-3-1989-01-g.jpeg

    .

    You know, there was a guy I worked with who looked kinda like that, and both eyes never look at you at the same time, so I always wondered... do you just pick an eye to look at when you're talking to him, or just look between his eyes and hope he can't tell?

    Oh, and JACK, STOP NEGLECTING THIS GAME AND DISSING THE CHAMPIONS IP AND MAKE IT THE SUPERHERO MMO OF OUR TIME LIKE IT SHOULD BE. OR... MAKE FREEDOM FORCE 2.

    Sorry. I've just finally decided that to look at myself in the mirror have to yell something like that at Jack every time I post from now on.

    I guess the lazy way would be to make it my sig.
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    They filmed the toxie sequels in my home town. True story.

    Yes, we were ghetto enough to pretend to be new jersey.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    wethree1 wrote: »
    You know, there was a guy I worked with who looked kinda like that, and both eyes never look at you at the same time, so I always wondered... do you just pick an eye to look at when you're talking to him, or just look between his eyes and hope he can't tell?

    Oh, and JACK, STOP NEGLECTING THIS GAME AND DISSING THE CHAMPIONS IP AND MAKE IT THE SUPERHERO MMO OF OUR TIME LIKE IT SHOULD BE. OR... MAKE FREEDOM FORCE 2.

    Sorry. I've just finally decided that to look at myself in the mirror have to yell something like that at Jack every time I post from now on.

    I guess the lazy way would be to make it my sig.

    and all I can think of now is this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rEsVp5tiDQ
    Stuffing up Freeform builds since Mid 2011
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  • chaoswolf820chaoswolf820 Posts: 734 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I feel like we just haven't had the right game by the right studio at the right time. If you consider last summer's releases of The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises as the critical mass moment for superheroes, look at where the market was:

    City of Heroes had eight years of goodwill and clout, deep lore that could stand on its own, with plenty of developer support... and a publisher days away from killing it and stuffing the body in the refrigerator.

    Champions Online had a newer, more polished engine than CoH and deep, flexible character creation tools... and a studio that was about to set it adrift for a year and a half while it worked on two other games.

    DC Universe Online let you play in legendary comic book environments like Gotham City and Metropolis on both PC and Playstation 3... as long as you were willing to play a button-mashing 3rd-person action console port, whose character creator was inferior to Saints Row III, that constantly reminded you that you were a DC hero's sidekick.

    Marvel Heroes... was a year from launch and a Diablo/League of Legends mashup anyway.

    This kills me about Champions Online. Opportunity wasn't just knocking, it was pounding on the door. The genre was reaching new heights, a competitor was folding, and Cryptic shrugged.
    crosschan wrote: »
    And for my money(yes, I spend money here) I always go back to the same point. In Champions Online the actual Champions are pretty much chumps so YOU must be the hero. The best you can expect to rise to in DCUO is picking up Superman's Dry Cleaning and polishing the Bat Codpiece. So the choice is simple, HERO or Sidekick's Sidekick? :cool:

    And finally we come to Cryptic. It's not so much that we're in a slow burn when it comes to releasable content at this very momment(follow me here for a minute). It's that since Day 0 they've been making what I would consider "Questionable Decisions" in the endless persuit of a classic case of "Kid in a Candy Store Syndrome"(aka Follow the Shiny). Look at it like this(my theory here):

    - IF PvP Queues had been properly repaired near launch THEN Alerts in CO and such things in games like NW(Skirmishes and Dungeons) would work much much better.

    -IF Untiy had been fleshed out to the point where it could run 1 month with zero repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily.

    -IF The Nemesis System worked entirely(squash dem bugs) and had enough content to make no less than 6 Nemesis with ZERO repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily(also, that whole Nemesis 6 = You fight your own version of The Sinister Six idea would also be amazing).

    -IF bugs from LAUNCH has been squashed THEN they wouldn't be catastrophic game destroying issues now(see: Crashing Zones for Fun and Profit).

    -IF Costume Sets were created following a base quality(3 materials at least, male and female, making the lines match on sets on the front, pretending you've looked at the back of the character once during the creation process, and no clipping issues when ONLY using that one new piece with the default model for no reason) THEN they wouldn't have to be corrected now...or never.

    -IF this game had a CS Department that had 1) ever played this game, 2) know how to do things previous GMs could do, 3) had some form of ingame presence at all(CO Ingame GMs are an Urban Legend and have been for YEARS) and 4) were held accountable vs. being able to anonymously copy/paste "Canned Replies" or outright deletion of tickets they find "hard to handle" THEN more people might feel more comfortable giving this company MONEY.

    -IF PTS wasn't a 50/50(I'm being generous) crapshoot as to whether things would be released there early enough to allow for actual repairs(not reading into the book-sized theorycrafting...but actual broken parts) so that things are released onto Live vs. being Inflicted upon Live THEN there wouldn't be as many things to repair and people wouldn't have such an abysmal belief in the system itself.

    -IF they had kept the Block Station in the Tutorial, Canadian/Desert Crisis Zones at LvL 6, taken better steps to educate newbies into being able to better handle this game, and not shown them the blasted Alerts Popup until LvL 15(also not letting them queue until that point) THEN maybe alot of the playerbase wouldn't be so terrible at this game and cry out whenever something even remotely challenging is attempted.

    -IF ATs weren't a mostly abandonded joke designed to, for the most part, suck rocks through a paper straw and had additions(some for sale, the occasional freebie to keep up interest) THEN maybe the Silver Program would be more profitable. BTW, whatever happened to the AT Rotation Program where Silvers could "Test Drive" an AT for a while?

    -IF The Referral Program was brought back and new players and Silvers alike would get a taste of being Gold THEN maybe Freeform Slots and Gold Subs would sell more and there would be more MONEY.

    -IF CS/APs were brought back and mini-MEGA-Events were cut down to maybe, I dunno, 1-2 a year or none once the 2013 cycle is completed and they can just be put into the rotation THEN when my friends come back and ask, "What did I miss" maybe I could reply with more than, "Well, there was X, Y, and Z, but they're gone now so...come back in a few weeks when they come back?" BTW, this tactic doesn't work that well from my experiences for the retention of returning players unless they just so happen to return when something is actually happening.

    -IF there were Costume Sets, Travel Powers, and such in the Z-Store for straight up purchase THEN, this might be a shocker to some, maybe people would spend money in the Z-Store and buy them(This does not, IMO, include things that used to be earnable ingame but were removed via On Alert only to be turned around and sold back to the players...that's just dirty pool)?

    -IF they had continued churning out stuff for Hideouts(or turned on the stuff we do have in them that we cannot access) THEN maybe people would buy that stuff?

    -IF, and this is the biggie IMO, they had gone into BUG MONTH the SECOND the announcement about the demise of CoX was announced THEN I'm willing to bet we'd be in much better shape now than we are. This was the golden goose landing on your doorstep and being kicked out of the way because it landed on your newspaper.

    -IF....you know what? I've gone on long enough. I think you all get the picture. It's not just the potential this game has...it's that there were many many many many chances, when we did have devs, that these things could have happened and the more that they don't because someone is always looking for the next "Shiny" the deeper the hole we're in becomes. WTB Shovel to dig way out of this hole. :wink:


    Everything I'd wanted to say, I realized these two have already said.
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