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Toxic

wethree1wethree1 Posts: 149 Arc User
edited September 2013 in Champions Online Discussion
I've seen lots of people throw the word toxic around about this community.

These must be new people or people who think anything but positive feedback is bad. The vast majority of this community is great. When things are bad, it is ok to say that they are. It is generally helpful. "Yes men" have ruined many ventures.

I came here from CoH and I was pretty much 99% positive on CoH. I only say 99% to be safe. It was easy. The game wasn't perfect, but Paragon Studios listened, cared, had funding, and were allowed to talk to us.

I came here all excited about my new home and ready to love it. I found great things about the game, but as time passed, the neglect got harder and harder to ignore. After a while, it just seemed amazing. Ridiculous.

So... I quit and went to TSW, but I miss my tights and cape, and so I come back to the forums here looking for a shred of hope. A glimmer of a future so that I can log onto my toon and actually have something fun to do.

What I found in TSW was that this level of neglect is not normal even in a game and a company with real problems. TSW feels like warm, golden love from on high compared to the cold silence from the company and devs here.

But, though TSW is a great game, I'm undewear-on-the-outside at heart, and I miss it. Somebody's sig says something like "be the hero you wish you could be in a better game." That's pretty much it. And it doesn't have to be that way.

But it is.

Hell, the worst thing is that it's not even too late. If this game got half the attention that NWO is getting, it'd be THE Superhero MMO for now and for a long time.

Thanks, Jack, for what you did to this time-honored IP.
Post edited by wethree1 on
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Comments

  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    My story is similar to yours, minus the Secret World. The tights are what have kept me here.

    But, yeah, cheerleaders can throw around all of their terminology about "toxicity" they want, but that's not going to improve the game. Criticism is GOOD. Without criticism, there would be no desire to do better and we'd be lost in a mire of "yes man" mediocrity.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I completely agree that criticism is good. Emperor's new clothes and all that.

    I do believe that some of the criticism we see here is far from constructive. Some of it is inaccurate. Some of it is dishonest.

    Even so I believe that those claiming that CO's forums are particularly toxic might want to spend some time on forums for other games getting some perspective.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Saying that the forums as a whole are "toxic" is ridiculous hyperbole. However, some posters are indeed toxic, and are capable of turning any thread they post in into a hateful flamewar. Fortunately, some of the worst offenders now sport an (apparently) permanent "Banned" forum title.
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The community is the least toxic. The genuine morons don't last.

    I wholly support criticism that's legit. Now, don't get me wrong- there's criticism I don't agree with, but I'll support it as long as it's -legit-.

    Complaining because CO isn't CoX isn't legit.

    CoX had a lot of things that, if they got to CO? Would be awesome. Hell, I was telling someone that I wish CoX looked like CO and that's what we were playing. But mind you, since then- I've dealt with some of the 'Save CoX' groups and personally? I think those are book definition of toxic. I remember being put down because I wasn't going to boycott all NCSoft games, told that I had no business playing CoX, and told I was 'the opposite of a hero'. Well, that's what they said first. After that, I think I was called everything but a child of God.

    CO is gonna get flak from me because this game is loaded with potential. I just want a good game, man. I mean, I want Cryptic to do somethin' with it, or give it to someone who'll do somethin' with it. It's like getting a box of REALLY AWESOME action figures and being forced to play in the sandbox that the cats poop in.
  • rowan79rowan79 Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Criticism is always good, but there's a way to go about such things. Some of the things I see hurled in the forums are just ugly, especially when you have an opinion that doesn't coincide with the seeming vast majority. Or when you speak out against it.

    And I am not even speaking of here in the forums when I speak of whiners, mostly those that troll on hour after hour in zonechat in game. The forums are actually where the complaints and criticism belong. But this aggressive stance that you can you can only have one opinion and one opinion only.......and that opinion being that you can let loose like some non parented teenager to someone who is most likely only a middle man, so that those who are actually responsible don't have to deal with it( Sorry trail, nothing personal).

    Civil discourse goes out the window when you attack in such a way you know is offensive. Criticism is good, but if you have to fill up zonechat for 3 straight hours then just leave the damn game alone and get some sleep. Or post it in here and be done with it. Expecting others to then shut up and not say anything for fear of being called a yes man is just plain elbowing your will over others. Do that at home.

    "Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Zone chat?

    You mean 'Russian Roulette with the Chat Mute Pistol'.

    I turned that off after someone was dropping slurs for homosexuals, I told them it was a lousy thing to do, and was immediately chat-muted. Someone got chat-muted for saying Wolverine sucked. I've seen people tear down one religion and call someone a bigot for saying they don't agree with another. I've heard people in there soliciting slave ERP. Someone actively described the function and form of dragon genitals in zone chat once for the better part of twenty minutes.

    If people are complaining about the game in zone chat now.... I might turn it back on, because it sounds like it's improved.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The only times I've used Zone Chat are when I'm trying to pull together a team for a lair. I largely ignore it otherwise.
  • rowan79rowan79 Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Yes zonechat. They probably have swapped into the forums for one post or another, but I'm not in the forums enough to catch any of them I guess. I was probably generalizing a bit in the other post, but I do believe most of the chats I got caught up in was with mostly ex- CoX players. When I left last august ( rl reasons, not the game itself) it just wasn't like that, either that or I didnt pay attention to it enough. Even if there were conversations criticizing this or that, these " Oh way back in the day in Cox or CoH, remember when they had this and that and CO IS CRAP ALL CRAP!CRAPCRAPCRAP!!!" For frickin HOURS!

    Expecting those that are tired of it to not say anything about it is not happening, so flame wars seem inevitable. And why shouldn't those of us who find it tedious say anything about it? There is a place for it after all, isn't there?

    Just makes me wonder how much of an addiction has to be present to keep playing a game that absolutely is not meeting up to one's standard.

    The only times I've used Zone Chat are when I'm trying to pull together a team for a lair. I largely ignore it otherwise.

    Yes I have finally turned it off for the most part lol

    "Do you know what power is? Power is control of men who are lesser than you."
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Well, if the CoX complaints are true, CoX was actually capable of better gameplay, more content, better graphics, better weapons, protecting the Constitution, curing erectile disfunction, saving your marriage, getting you a better job, doing your taxes, shaving your back, getting flouride out of the water, stopping the New World Order, preventing war in the Middle East, and preventing the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    It's spelled "fluoride," actually. Don't feel ashamed, though, Justice League Unlimited made the same mistake.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Hey, that's a typo!
  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    We are all consumers of a product.

    Product is somehow considered niche in the gaming world but the larger genre is very popular in the cinematic and literature communities world wide. I think this is where things get blurry, just my guess.

    Product allows us a forum to voice opinion. Emphasis on "opinion".

    Sure we disagree on a great many things.

    This is planet Earth after all (626 version or Alpha Quantum System 10 depending on upbringing) , and as such, one should expect varying opinions at all times.
  • gunsang1gunsang1 Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    There is deconstructive, and constructive criticism.

    Toxic is just a word formed and followed as an easy word to scream when following the path of least resistance against nay-saying. It's just not appropriate to begin with.

    It's more like almost no one knows the damn difference between the two types of criticism and think the former is acceptable. Opinion or not, that won't get you far. :rolleyes:
  • golgorianremmygolgorianremmy Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    This entire thread is just proof that the League of Legends community has started to ruin things besides their own game. The word "Toxic" as it applies to player behavior originated with a player behavior specialist from Riot Games who posts under the name "Lyte". It was then immediately seized by the terrible playerbase there and applied to anything and everything they didn't like about the game, the forums, and the world at large because that's what happens when idiots get introduced to buzzwords.

    Also, the "describing the function of a dragon's genitals" thing is almost certainly a copy/paste of a post made on the LoL forums by a moron named "Iaw", in which he described the reproductive organs of a half-dragon lady named Shyvanna in excruciating detail (I'm talking 3 paragraphs detail) and got himself a well-deserved forum ban for his troubles.

    League of Legends is the 4chan of online video games. Please do your part to keep the low-down filth that infests that game from polluting the rest of the internet, by finding a new term to describe negative behavior instead of "toxic".
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Well, if the CoX complaints are true, CoX was actually capable of better gameplay, more content, better graphics, better weapons, protecting the Constitution, curing erectile disfunction, saving your marriage, getting you a better job, doing your taxes, shaving your back, getting flouride out of the water, stopping the New World Order, preventing war in the Middle East, and preventing the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS.

    So full of win. But I must add Gingervitos was a seriously anal CoX player :P

    I always thought he was a disease of the gob :D
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
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  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    This entire thread is just proof that the League of Legends community has started to ruin things besides their own game. The word "Toxic" as it applies to player behavior originated with a player behavior specialist from Riot Games who posts under the name "Lyte". It was then immediately seized by the terrible playerbase there and applied to anything and everything they didn't like about the game, the forums, and the world at large because that's what happens when idiots get introduced to buzzwords.

    Are you kidding? The word "toxic" was used to describe the War Craft forums long before Blizzard entered the MMO market. It is anything but a recent phenomenon.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    LIES. Craftwar doesn't have overly annoying toxic troll faces I post there all the time...wait...never mind :P

    OMG they censor the words war and craft in a combined name thats petty. They dont even compete ones FTP ones PTP LOL
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • golgorianremmygolgorianremmy Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Are you kidding? The word "toxic" was used to describe the War Craft forums long before Blizzard entered the MMO market. It is anything but a recent phenomenon.

    I don't doubt that there were some small, scattered uses of the term before Lyte popularized it. After all, he likely got it from somewhere and most/all of the LoL team members are old-school gamers.

    That being said, the word's current buzzword popularity directly stems from it's use by the Riot Player Behavior team, and subsequent complete misuse by that game's user base.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,952 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    My view:

    The Community here is actually full of some fantastic individuals who are willing to help, explain and even teach others how to do things in game from building to overcoming technical issues.

    Some members of our community even give away items which are normally quite pricy or host events which everyone benefits from.

    Generally in Zone, on a daily basis I would see a lower level asking for help with Kevin Poe or Wayland Talos and within seconds they are either PM'd or teamed with a level 40 or so who is willing to side kick down and help.

    Then you have the trolls and haters and people who are wearing a NEON Sign which reads: "I am being foul mouthed on purpose. Please, add me to your ignore list."

    Yes, there are people who abuse the chat function and it is very irritating to see this happen to people who are trying to have a neutral stance or merely disagree with someone for slating a religion or race of people or people of a different sexual orientation than themselves. It's just so pointless to argue, it makes people upset and some innocent party (in some cases) ends up getting a chat ban for 24hrs.

    I think the issue on the forums is that the information we are given sometimes is not entirely to our liking.

    There are those who have been around since BETA and have seen certain things get worse, and as a result are frustrated by such developments.

    Then there is the lack of living up to the promises made in our UNTIL Reports which as others have no doubt mentioned serve as a reminder to all the things we DON'T have in game but would whole heartedly support (not in all cases but in some cases).

    Even though on Forums there are people who disagree with me personally and may even hate my opinions, I don't think it is fair to say because they exist they are causing the community to be "toxic".

    If the prevailing attitude in the community was to screw people over by giving them bad information which made them have a hard time or giving them dud builds or something then yes, that would be an attitude which would deserve the label of "Toxic".

    Personally, I don't see that here. At all.

    The Forum is not an accurate representation of the community and neither is Zone Chat.

    I base my view of the community through the friends I've made and people I interact and possibly argue with. Sure you will get the occasional troll(s) who wish to spoil things for others by calling people out in Zone or on Forums but generally they will be silenced in due time.

    There's my opinion. I think we have a great community just a few blemishes that's all.

    The reason the attitude can become very negative towards news is because in the main people are bored of the existing content, all of us have been "Just in time...TO BE TOO LATE" or gone back in time to an alternate time so many times we have Time Miles...:rolleyes:

    I think things like FATAL ERR0R 1+ 2 being permanent content was a FANTASTIC move on Cryptic North's part.

    I'd say they should have done the same thing for the Lemurian Event. Perhaps keeping a memento of the battle by having a statue of the Harbinger in the Sea or something.

    As far as I am aware we only have a relatively small number of developers working on CO, so things aren't going to be moving as fast as the player base would want.

    New Powers and Costume sets are great and players want them but using them in the same zones can only get you so far. A combination of issues and ideas that never make it are the reasons why players can be so negative.

    I just hope with the announced bug fix initiative CO is heading to better times.
  • aetharburnaetharburn Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Well, if the CoX complaints are true, CoX was actually capable of better gameplay, more content, better graphics, better weapons, protecting the Constitution, curing erectile disfunction, saving your marriage, getting you a better job, doing your taxes, shaving your back, getting flouride out of the water, stopping the New World Order, preventing war in the Middle East, and preventing the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS.

    You're being toxic. No one else is talking about CO not being CoX, it's like watching you arguing with yourself.
    .
    .
    _________________________________________

    "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality."
    _________________________________________
  • angelphoenix12angelphoenix12 Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i hope Im not considered toxic. it pains me to see the untapped potential of this game. if this game had the type of deving done on it like sto, I would still be playing.
    if I am considered toxic I must apologize it was not my intention. I just want this game to be better then what it is now.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Remember that thread that TT locked the other day? The one that started out ask someone asking some questions? The one that turned into a bunch of name calling and insults? That's part of the reason that "toxic community" shows up. The community as a whole may not be toxic, but there are people in it who are.

    Disagreeing with someone does not need to include blatant insults.
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  • lucasjacksonlucasjackson Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    It's just a new buzzword that's landed in people's heads. There's always crappy people, in all game forums everywhere. Today they're toxic, yesterday they were doomy-gloomies, and tomorrow they'll be reticent salamanders.

    Whatever you call them, those people will be in every community. It's just the buzzword that changes.

    Moving on...
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    aetharburn wrote: »
    You're being toxic. No one else is talking about CO not being CoX, it's like watching you arguing with yourself.

    I'm not sure how to respond to you.

    That was kinda how we started pointing out how things were getting toxic. Most of the time, the people who are going on and on and tearing down CO are saying how it's no CoX and going on for countless hours about how much better a game that doesn't exist anymore is and slamming CO- and still lingering. They exagerrating the claims.

    I'm the least toxic person you'll meet. However, you might have an allergy and that's a bit different.

    So, I'm sorry you missed the topic. Better luck next time.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Given the level of flameage that comes into being at times, I'd call the salamanders "loquacious", rather than "reticent"... :)

    The community as a whole is not toxic (for a really "toxic community", I commend your attention to the comments sections at YouTube and Yahoo!. Better yet, just take my word and spare yourselves). Certain members have their moments, however.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • locsmith12locsmith12 Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    CO is gonna get flak from me because this game is loaded with potential. I just want a good game, man. I mean, I want Cryptic to do somethin' with it, or give it to someone who'll do somethin' with it. It's like getting a box of REALLY AWESOME action figures and being forced to play in the sandbox that the cats poop in.

    This has been my biggest complaint. This game had some much potential when it launched and frankly still does. I find it baffling that with superheroes as high as they are in pop culture right now that the controlling companies would shut down the original (CoH) and allow the remaining (CO) to languish in development limbo (maintenance mode they call it). I?m not including DCUO because I consider it a console port and Marvel Heroes (while fun) is an action RPG like Diablo and not what I consider a true MMO.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited September 2013
    locsmith12 wrote: »
    This has been my biggest complaint. This game had some much potential when it launched and frankly still does. I find it baffling that with superheroes as high as they are in pop culture right now that the controlling companies would shut down the original (CoH) and allow the remaining (CO) to languish in development limbo (maintenance mode they call it). I?m not including DCUO because I consider it a console port and Marvel Heroes (while fun) is an action RPG like Diablo and not what I consider a true MMO.

    1. It's not in development limbo. Development is slow, maybe, but things are happening.

    2. They didn't just decide to slow development for no reason. It's all based on how much money the games are making. You could argue that you need money to make money and all that, but let's not pretend to know better than the folks with the analytics and R&D.

    Yes, superheroes are big in pop culture now, so it seems like it's an easy cash cow, but even the big two comics companies have so-so superhero MMOs. Why aren't even more companies jumping on the bandwagon then?

    It's still a niche, always was. Unless something radical happens, it's likely to stay that way.
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  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    sterga wrote: »
    Remember that thread that TT locked the other day? The one that started out ask someone asking some questions? The one that turned into a bunch of name calling and insults? That's part of the reason that "toxic community" shows up. The community as a whole may not be toxic, but there are people in it who are.

    Disagreeing with someone does not need to include blatant insults.

    I feel like we're having the same thoughts here...
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    There are few Superhero games because it's much easier to go and make a defaultmodel of MMOs, a Fantasy game with elfs, trolls, dragons, knights and wizards.
    Since 2 major Superhero/comicbook companies allready have their games out it would take a tons of work to make a working SuperherocomicbookgenreMMO that people feel familiar with and would play.
    Any other big comicbookgenre companies that could bring out game like CO, DCUO or Marvel Heroes? With large amount of source material? Anything to bring competition against the Frightfull Three?
    Image Comics?
    And.....?

    Remake Freedom Force?
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  • fantasycharacterfantasycharacter Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    flyingfinn wrote: »

    Remake Freedom Force?

    Or a freedom force mmo!

    Nuclear Vinter!:biggrin:



    Seriously why don't they make sequels to that game anymore:frown:
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I submit further that superheroes are making for good movie box office, and slightly-above-mediocre TV ratings (specifically, the CW series Arrow) - but sales of comic books are poor, indie publishers are faring even worse, and all the advertising in the world couldn't save CoH. We may have to resign ourselves to playing an unpopular genre, and be happy with what little we can get, you know? <shrug> Not the reality I would prefer, but it seems to be the reality we've been dealt...
    Nuclear Vinter!
    And for some reason I read that as "Nuclear Vintner" - producer of fine vintage radioactive wines...
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  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    I submit further that superheroes are making for good movie box office, and slightly-above-mediocre TV ratings (specifically, the CW series Arrow) - but sales of comic books are poor, indie publishers are faring even worse, and all the advertising in the world couldn't save CoH. We may have to resign ourselves to playing an unpopular genre, and be happy with what little we can get, you know? <shrug> Not the reality I would prefer, but it seems to be the reality we've been dealt....

    Excellent point. A genre of fiction's success in one medium (Hollywood blockbuster) does not automatically translate to similar degrees of success in another (MMOs). This phenomenon is not exclusive to superhero MMOs.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • deathsentry2012deathsentry2012 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I just wonder though, if there really was focus on the game would it be different. Like to me, I know its a challenge in terms of chicken vs. the egg, but if in fact, they took the tremendous, unrivaled potential of this game and exploited, I think people would come back/come to it new.

    CoX wasn't perfect but the attention it got including continuing story updates (and to some extent base and story editors) helped keep people around though the technology gap after awhile became too apparent.

    When I came to CO I was floored with the level of graphics (again, only other MMO I played was CoX) and once I got the hang of it, immediately signed up for gold to get the freeform slots and ATs. I know comic books are languishing somewhat as well, but given how they are taking over movies, and expansion ever more into television (have that new marvel show with agent coulson coming out in the fall, etc), if you gave people an expansive and creative place to live out those aspirations, I'm sure a game would do well.

    Yes, Marvel and DC have tons of lore to mine, but their implementations (as someone previously stated) is not optimal. To have the freedom to truly create as you have here, coupled with real attention from PWE/Cryptic, I think, would blow those two away. But again, it would have to be something where real attention was paid, development done (more than Alerts..even if made permanent).

    Again, coming from CoX, while it lacked greatly in graphics/technology compared to newer games, they did focus on lore and moving the story of the game forward with different environment changing events.

    Things like Resistance and Aftershock, etc are amazingly well done, if you could have more of these and possibly also as a zone-wide event that would then change and progress the overall story, then this game would move from a great place to make alts and rerun them in the same alerts to a living world where your character could grow along with the virtual world and really increase the level of attachment and growth for the game.

    Ok, sorry for the long post, but there is so much here that is exploited so little, and so like the original OP said, its frustrating to see. Even with the CoX successors coming along, I doubt any game will ever have a character creator and freeform and power armor capability for concurrent power execution and character-wide gear as this game does.

    Unfortunately, either due to market conditions, lack of focus, etc, I don't think these without additional focus, will be able to expand the user base (and so the vicious cycle continues, less players, less company investment, etc).:frown:
  • cgta1967cgta1967 Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    .

    Dangnabbit !!!

    I thought his thread was going to be about Toxic builds.....

    I love the toxic powers.


    oh well.....


    time to move on to another thread..... see y'all
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  • fantasycharacterfantasycharacter Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    And for some reason I read that as "Nuclear Vintner" - producer of fine vintage radioactive wines...

    Haha, yes, that brand really obliterates you!
  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    Excellent point. A genre of fiction's success in one medium (Hollywood blockbuster) does not automatically translate to similar degrees of success in another (MMOs). This phenomenon is not exclusive to superhero MMOs.

    You and Jonsills are right. I thought Matrix Online was gonna be a huge hit, given the box office it did. I bought it sometime after release. It was my 2nd MMO. After downloading it I didn't even see another player for roughly 2 weeks. Loved that game.
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    I submit further that superheroes are making for good movie box office, and slightly-above-mediocre TV ratings (specifically, the CW series Arrow) - but sales of comic books are poor, indie publishers are faring even worse, and all the advertising in the world couldn't save CoH. We may have to resign ourselves to playing an unpopular genre, and be happy with what little we can get, you know? <shrug> Not the reality I would prefer, but it seems to be the reality we've been dealt...

    I feel like we just haven't had the right game by the right studio at the right time. If you consider last summer's releases of The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises as the critical mass moment for superheroes, look at where the market was:

    City of Heroes had eight years of goodwill and clout, deep lore that could stand on its own, with plenty of developer support... and a publisher days away from killing it and stuffing the body in the refrigerator.

    Champions Online had a newer, more polished engine than CoH and deep, flexible character creation tools... and a studio that was about to set it adrift for a year and a half while it worked on two other games.

    DC Universe Online let you play in legendary comic book environments like Gotham City and Metropolis on both PC and Playstation 3... as long as you were willing to play a button-mashing 3rd-person action console port, whose character creator was inferior to Saints Row III, that constantly reminded you that you were a DC hero's sidekick.

    Marvel Heroes... was a year from launch and a Diablo/League of Legends mashup anyway.

    This kills me about Champions Online. Opportunity wasn't just knocking, it was pounding on the door. The genre was reaching new heights, a competitor was folding, and Cryptic shrugged.
    jonsills wrote: »
    And for some reason I read that as "Nuclear Vintner" - producer of fine vintage radioactive wines...

    I am not drinking any f***ing radioactive Merlot!
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • wethree1wethree1 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I really can't help but blame Jack Emmert.

    I know there were other factors and he wasn't in total control, but where he was kind of genius in his work with creating CoH and Champions, he is one ball-dropping @$*%&amp;$ $&#*%$ when it comes to supporting a Superhero game post-launch.

    He bailed on CoH (luckily), and for all his self-professed love of the Champions IP, he got over it right damned fast when the game didn't take off like a rocket.

    And I stand by what I said. With HALF the support that NWO is getting, Champions could be THE Superhero niche MMO for now and for a long, long time. No major company is even working on one right now, for jebus sakes.

    It's just... it's just hard to watch. Especially when I just want a safe place to put my underwear outside and fight evil. And have fun doing it, that is.
  • crosschancrosschan Posts: 920 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You and Jonsills are right. I thought Matrix Online was gonna be a huge hit, given the box office it did. I bought it sometime after release. It was my 2nd MMO. After downloading it I didn't even see another player for roughly 2 weeks. Loved that game.

    So, YOU were the one. <giggles>
    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Rock/Paper/Scissors Online was horrid. Sony didn't cancel it, they put it out of it's misery. :biggrin:

    Also, to be very brief, I do not believe this community as a whole is toxic. I just think alot of people have no tact. Oddly enough, I've chatted with some of the worst people on these forums ingame and they're not nearly as bad(most of them, there are exceptions). Even a certain reptile(who shall not be named) is a pretty cool guy ingame....BELIEVE IT OR NOT.</Jack_Palance> :eek:

    And for my money(yes, I spend money here) I always go back to the same point. In Champions Online the actual Champions are pretty much chumps so YOU must be the hero. The best you can expect to rise to in DCUO is picking up Superman's Dry Cleaning and polishing the Bat Codpiece. So the choice is simple, HERO or Sidekick's Sidekick? :cool:

    And finally we come to Cryptic. It's not so much that we're in a slow burn when it comes to releasable content at this very momment(follow me here for a minute). It's that since Day 0 they've been making what I would consider "Questionable Decisions" in the endless persuit of a classic case of "Kid in a Candy Store Syndrome"(aka Follow the Shiny). Look at it like this(my theory here):

    - IF PvP Queues had been properly repaired near launch THEN Alerts in CO and such things in games like NW(Skirmishes and Dungeons) would work much much better.

    -IF Untiy had been fleshed out to the point where it could run 1 month with zero repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily.

    -IF The Nemesis System worked entirely(squash dem bugs) and had enough content to make no less than 6 Nemesis with ZERO repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily(also, that whole Nemesis 6 = You fight your own version of The Sinister Six idea would also be amazing).

    -IF bugs from LAUNCH has been squashed THEN they wouldn't be catastrophic game destroying issues now(see: Crashing Zones for Fun and Profit).

    -IF Costume Sets were created following a base quality(3 materials at least, male and female, making the lines match on sets on the front, pretending you've looked at the back of the character once during the creation process, and no clipping issues when ONLY using that one new piece with the default model for no reason) THEN they wouldn't have to be corrected now...or never.

    -IF this game had a CS Department that had 1) ever played this game, 2) know how to do things previous GMs could do, 3) had some form of ingame presence at all(CO Ingame GMs are an Urban Legend and have been for YEARS) and 4) were held accountable vs. being able to anonymously copy/paste "Canned Replies" or outright deletion of tickets they find "hard to handle" THEN more people might feel more comfortable giving this company MONEY.

    -IF PTS wasn't a 50/50(I'm being generous) crapshoot as to whether things would be released there early enough to allow for actual repairs(not reading into the book-sized theorycrafting...but actual broken parts) so that things are released onto Live vs. being Inflicted upon Live THEN there wouldn't be as many things to repair and people wouldn't have such an abysmal belief in the system itself.

    -IF they had kept the Block Station in the Tutorial, Canadian/Desert Crisis Zones at LvL 6, taken better steps to educate newbies into being able to better handle this game, and not shown them the blasted Alerts Popup until LvL 15(also not letting them queue until that point) THEN maybe alot of the playerbase wouldn't be so terrible at this game and cry out whenever something even remotely challenging is attempted.

    -IF ATs weren't a mostly abandonded joke designed to, for the most part, suck rocks through a paper straw and had additions(some for sale, the occasional freebie to keep up interest) THEN maybe the Silver Program would be more profitable. BTW, whatever happened to the AT Rotation Program where Silvers could "Test Drive" an AT for a while?

    -IF The Referral Program was brought back and new players and Silvers alike would get a taste of being Gold THEN maybe Freeform Slots and Gold Subs would sell more and there would be more MONEY.

    -IF CS/APs were brought back and mini-MEGA-Events were cut down to maybe, I dunno, 1-2 a year or none once the 2013 cycle is completed and they can just be put into the rotation THEN when my friends come back and ask, "What did I miss" maybe I could reply with more than, "Well, there was X, Y, and Z, but they're gone now so...come back in a few weeks when they come back?" BTW, this tactic doesn't work that well from my experiences for the retention of returning players unless they just so happen to return when something is actually happening.

    -IF there were Costume Sets, Travel Powers, and such in the Z-Store for straight up purchase THEN, this might be a shocker to some, maybe people would spend money in the Z-Store and buy them(This does not, IMO, include things that used to be earnable ingame but were removed via On Alert only to be turned around and sold back to the players...that's just dirty pool)?

    -IF they had continued churning out stuff for Hideouts(or turned on the stuff we do have in them that we cannot access) THEN maybe people would buy that stuff?

    -IF, and this is the biggie IMO, they had gone into BUG MONTH the SECOND the announcement about the demise of CoX was announced THEN I'm willing to bet we'd be in much better shape now than we are. This was the golden goose landing on your doorstep and being kicked out of the way because it landed on your newspaper.

    -IF....you know what? I've gone on long enough. I think you all get the picture. It's not just the potential this game has...it's that there were many many many many chances, when we did have devs, that these things could have happened and the more that they don't because someone is always looking for the next "Shiny" the deeper the hole we're in becomes. WTB Shovel to dig way out of this hole. :wink:
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  • lafury001200lafury001200 Posts: 567 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    crosschan wrote: »
    So, YOU were the one. <giggles>
    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Rock/Paper/Scissors Online was horrid. Sony didn't cancel it, they put it out of it's misery. :biggrin:

    Also, to be very brief, I do not believe this community as a whole is toxic. I just think alot of people have no tact."

    I readily admit to being tactless here on occasion, but I need a break from real life tact. In my line of work it's exhausting but necessary.

    I know MXO was bad, I think all of us knew it was bad. One of my guildies said it best I think after it recieved scathing review after scathing review:

    "This is like watching a kid get pistol whipped, just in this case it's our little sister taking the beating." He meant that while it may have sucked, it was still our favorite.

    It had zero customization. I can still hear the audio in an online review when I reminisce:

    "Why do they have an option called ""hats"" when there is only one hat in the creator? Why not just call it ""hat!?" ". The reviewers futher messed with us by creating a character called "TONKA" (a play on certain Matrix handles), and if I recall, made the mistake of creating it in the pvp server. Good times.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    crosschan wrote: »
    So, YOU were the one. <giggles>
    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Rock/Paper/Scissors Online was horrid. Sony didn't cancel it, they put it out of it's misery. :biggrin:

    Also, to be very brief, I do not believe this community as a whole is toxic. I just think alot of people have no tact. Oddly enough, I've chatted with some of the worst people on these forums ingame and they're not nearly as bad(most of them, there are exceptions). Even a certain reptile(who shall not be named) is a pretty cool guy ingame....BELIEVE IT OR NOT.</Jack_Palance> :eek:

    And for my money(yes, I spend money here) I always go back to the same point. In Champions Online the actual Champions are pretty much chumps so YOU must be the hero. The best you can expect to rise to in DCUO is picking up Superman's Dry Cleaning and polishing the Bat Codpiece. So the choice is simple, HERO or Sidekick's Sidekick? :cool:

    And finally we come to Cryptic. It's not so much that we're in a slow burn when it comes to releasable content at this very momment(follow me here for a minute). It's that since Day 0 they've been making what I would consider "Questionable Decisions" in the endless persuit of a classic case of "Kid in a Candy Store Syndrome"(aka Follow the Shiny). Look at it like this(my theory here):

    - IF PvP Queues had been properly repaired near launch THEN Alerts in CO and such things in games like NW(Skirmishes and Dungeons) would work much much better.

    -IF Untiy had been fleshed out to the point where it could run 1 month with zero repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily.

    -IF The Nemesis System worked entirely(squash dem bugs) and had enough content to make no less than 6 Nemesis with ZERO repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily(also, that whole Nemesis 6 = You fight your own version of The Sinister Six idea would also be amazing).

    -IF bugs from LAUNCH has been squashed THEN they wouldn't be catastrophic game destroying issues now(see: Crashing Zones for Fun and Profit).

    -IF Costume Sets were created following a base quality(3 materials at least, male and female, making the lines match on sets on the front, pretending you've looked at the back of the character once during the creation process, and no clipping issues when ONLY using that one new piece with the default model for no reason) THEN they wouldn't have to be corrected now...or never.

    -IF this game had a CS Department that had 1) ever played this game, 2) know how to do things previous GMs could do, 3) had some form of ingame presence at all(CO Ingame GMs are an Urban Legend and have been for YEARS) and 4) were held accountable vs. being able to anonymously copy/paste "Canned Replies" or outright deletion of tickets they find "hard to handle" THEN more people might feel more comfortable giving this company MONEY.

    -IF PTS wasn't a 50/50(I'm being generous) crapshoot as to whether things would be released there early enough to allow for actual repairs(not reading into the book-sized theorycrafting...but actual broken parts) so that things are released onto Live vs. being Inflicted upon Live THEN there wouldn't be as many things to repair and people wouldn't have such an abysmal belief in the system itself.

    -IF they had kept the Block Station in the Tutorial, Canadian/Desert Crisis Zones at LvL 6, taken better steps to educate newbies into being able to better handle this game, and not shown them the blasted Alerts Popup until LvL 15(also not letting them queue until that point) THEN maybe alot of the playerbase wouldn't be so terrible at this game and cry out whenever something even remotely challenging is attempted.

    -IF ATs weren't a mostly abandonded joke designed to, for the most part, suck rocks through a paper straw and had additions(some for sale, the occasional freebie to keep up interest) THEN maybe the Silver Program would be more profitable. BTW, whatever happened to the AT Rotation Program where Silvers could "Test Drive" an AT for a while?

    -IF The Referral Program was brought back and new players and Silvers alike would get a taste of being Gold THEN maybe Freeform Slots and Gold Subs would sell more and there would be more MONEY.

    -IF CS/APs were brought back and mini-MEGA-Events were cut down to maybe, I dunno, 1-2 a year or none once the 2013 cycle is completed and they can just be put into the rotation THEN when my friends come back and ask, "What did I miss" maybe I could reply with more than, "Well, there was X, Y, and Z, but they're gone now so...come back in a few weeks when they come back?" BTW, this tactic doesn't work that well from my experiences for the retention of returning players unless they just so happen to return when something is actually happening.

    -IF there were Costume Sets, Travel Powers, and such in the Z-Store for straight up purchase THEN, this might be a shocker to some, maybe people would spend money in the Z-Store and buy them(This does not, IMO, include things that used to be earnable ingame but were removed via On Alert only to be turned around and sold back to the players...that's just dirty pool)?

    -IF they had continued churning out stuff for Hideouts(or turned on the stuff we do have in them that we cannot access) THEN maybe people would buy that stuff?

    -IF, and this is the biggie IMO, they had gone into BUG MONTH the SECOND the announcement about the demise of CoX was announced THEN I'm willing to bet we'd be in much better shape now than we are. This was the golden goose landing on your doorstep and being kicked out of the way because it landed on your newspaper.

    -IF....you know what? I've gone on long enough. I think you all get the picture. It's not just the potential this game has...it's that there were many many many many chances, when we did have devs, that these things could have happened and the more that they don't because someone is always looking for the next "Shiny" the deeper the hole we're in becomes. WTB Shovel to dig way out of this hole. :wink:

    That pretty much covers it.
    though the year and half while concentrating on two other games.
    My copy of the ATARI DVD for CO(which just turned up), had an ad on the back for STO, so way before year and an half.
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  • scorpagorscorpagor Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    crosschan wrote: »
    And finally we come to Cryptic. It's not so much that we're in a slow burn when it comes to releasable content at this very momment(follow me here for a minute). It's that since Day 0 they've been making what I would consider "Questionable Decisions" in the endless persuit of a classic case of "Kid in a Candy Store Syndrome"(aka Follow the Shiny). Look at it like this(my theory here):

    - IF PvP Queues had been properly repaired near launch THEN Alerts in CO and such things in games like NW(Skirmishes and Dungeons) would work much much better.

    -IF Untiy had been fleshed out to the point where it could run 1 month with zero repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily.

    -IF The Nemesis System worked entirely(squash dem bugs) and had enough content to make no less than 6 Nemesis with ZERO repeats THEN I believe people would not be burned out on it so easily(also, that whole Nemesis 6 = You fight your own version of The Sinister Six idea would also be amazing).

    -IF bugs from LAUNCH has been squashed THEN they wouldn't be catastrophic game destroying issues now(see: Crashing Zones for Fun and Profit).

    -IF Costume Sets were created following a base quality(3 materials at least, male and female, making the lines match on sets on the front, pretending you've looked at the back of the character once during the creation process, and no clipping issues when ONLY using that one new piece with the default model for no reason) THEN they wouldn't have to be corrected now...or never.

    -IF this game had a CS Department that had 1) ever played this game, 2) know how to do things previous GMs could do, 3) had some form of ingame presence at all(CO Ingame GMs are an Urban Legend and have been for YEARS) and 4) were held accountable vs. being able to anonymously copy/paste "Canned Replies" or outright deletion of tickets they find "hard to handle" THEN more people might feel more comfortable giving this company MONEY.

    -IF PTS wasn't a 50/50(I'm being generous) crapshoot as to whether things would be released there early enough to allow for actual repairs(not reading into the book-sized theorycrafting...but actual broken parts) so that things are released onto Live vs. being Inflicted upon Live THEN there wouldn't be as many things to repair and people wouldn't have such an abysmal belief in the system itself.

    -IF they had kept the Block Station in the Tutorial, Canadian/Desert Crisis Zones at LvL 6, taken better steps to educate newbies into being able to better handle this game, and not shown them the blasted Alerts Popup until LvL 15(also not letting them queue until that point) THEN maybe alot of the playerbase wouldn't be so terrible at this game and cry out whenever something even remotely challenging is attempted.

    -IF ATs weren't a mostly abandonded joke designed to, for the most part, suck rocks through a paper straw and had additions(some for sale, the occasional freebie to keep up interest) THEN maybe the Silver Program would be more profitable. BTW, whatever happened to the AT Rotation Program where Silvers could "Test Drive" an AT for a while?

    -IF The Referral Program was brought back and new players and Silvers alike would get a taste of being Gold THEN maybe Freeform Slots and Gold Subs would sell more and there would be more MONEY.

    -IF CS/APs were brought back and mini-MEGA-Events were cut down to maybe, I dunno, 1-2 a year or none once the 2013 cycle is completed and they can just be put into the rotation THEN when my friends come back and ask, "What did I miss" maybe I could reply with more than, "Well, there was X, Y, and Z, but they're gone now so...come back in a few weeks when they come back?" BTW, this tactic doesn't work that well from my experiences for the retention of returning players unless they just so happen to return when something is actually happening.

    -IF there were Costume Sets, Travel Powers, and such in the Z-Store for straight up purchase THEN, this might be a shocker to some, maybe people would spend money in the Z-Store and buy them(This does not, IMO, include things that used to be earnable ingame but were removed via On Alert only to be turned around and sold back to the players...that's just dirty pool)?

    -IF they had continued churning out stuff for Hideouts(or turned on the stuff we do have in them that we cannot access) THEN maybe people would buy that stuff?

    -IF, and this is the biggie IMO, they had gone into BUG MONTH the SECOND the announcement about the demise of CoX was announced THEN I'm willing to bet we'd be in much better shape now than we are. This was the golden goose landing on your doorstep and being kicked out of the way because it landed on your newspaper.

    -IF....you know what? I've gone on long enough. I think you all get the picture. It's not just the potential this game has...it's that there were many many many many chances, when we did have devs, that these things could have happened and the more that they don't because someone is always looking for the next "Shiny" the deeper the hole we're in becomes. WTB Shovel to dig way out of this hole. :wink:

    17c.gif

    Here, have some upvotes.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    People are talking about theres to few super hero games, that I dont understand.

    Mario, Simon Belmont, Mega Man , Ryu, Lara Croft and Sonic the hedgehog are all super heroes. The reason you dont see a lot of good COMIC based games is because why call Batman for help when Solid Snakes at hand :P
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  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    People are talking about theres to few super hero games, that I dont understand.

    Mario, Simon Belmont, Mega Man , Ryu, Lara Croft and Sonic the hedgehog are all super heroes.

    No. They're not.
  • forrksakesexcoforrksakesexco Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    People are talking about theres to few super hero games, that I dont understand.

    Mario, Simon Belmont, Mega Man , Ryu, Lara Croft and Sonic the hedgehog are all super heroes. The reason you dont see a lot of good COMIC based games is because why call Batman for help when Solid Snakes at hand :P

    Yeah this is nonsense

    And I do hate you:mad:
    _____________
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    About the @handle - it's a long story.
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    nepht wrote: »
    People are talking about theres to few super hero games, that I dont understand.

    Mario, Simon Belmont, Mega Man , Ryu, Lara Croft and Sonic the hedgehog are all super heroes. The reason you dont see a lot of good COMIC based games is because why call Batman for help when Solid Snakes at hand :P

    Ohmigod, you want to start this fight again? Might as well lock the thread now.

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    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I was told by my father, Don't expect to be praised for something if you can't handle being criticized for it.

    Also, to make a few points.

    Where one can argue that the community is toxic, it's been called out several times that a significant portion of the community is a bit over-sensitive. There are a disproportionate amount of people in CO that take a dislike or criticism of something they like as a personal attack- and in many cases, that means criticism of CO. Many times, I've seen it explode into levels of stupidity and childishness that make me question their mental and social health.

    For example, I've seen people explode when I say "I don't like furries". I don't have anything against people who play them, I've just never liked the concept of talking cartoon animals. That's my opinion to have, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I also don't like Star Trek, or My Little Pony, and things of that nature. But saying "I don't like Furries" has led to me being accused of 'hate speech'. I wish I were joking. That doesn't make it toxic to dislike them- I'm more concerned for someone who takes their interest/hobby so seriously that they identify themselves as if that were their sexual orientation, race, or religion. To me, halting any opinion, based solely on that you don't agree with it, is toxic.

    This applies in CO too often. Way too often, and I think that's more toxic than a few players with a bad attitude. And let's be fair, I'm seeing 'Bad Attitude' directly translate to 'Unsatisfied and critical of CO', which is not the case.

    People complain, and then someone complains about the complaining. That's when they say: If you don't like it, go play something else! Yes, that's exactly what we need. Not only people leaving CO because they aren't satisfied with it and because it is in a state of neglect- but people in the community pretty much telling them that if you're not going to praise this game, STFU and GTFO!!! I mean, I'm no brilliant business expert- but I think the last thing we need is more people leaving. Just a thought.

    I've said this many times before in many different ways.

    Criticism isn't something a smart business ignores. Ever. There's a reason for the old mantra 'the customer is always right'. Yes, rarely you may get that one guy who's being a douchebag because his onions on the burger were touching one another and he's being petulant and weird and there's nothing you can do about that one crazy guy. You may also get that guy who screams like a nutcase when he finds a fry in his onion rings, and that one customer who says that you may be using a bit too much mustard on the hot dogs because it's almost too messy to eat. You have to be able to take the complaint, find the core of it, ignore the garbage, and focus on the complaint. Being a jerk about a legitimate complaint and being polite about it, in the grand scheme of things- it doesn't mean the complaint is without substance, and if you're smart you'll fix it or address it.

    And that's part of the toxicity.

    More so that 'whiners', we have too many worshippers. Cryptic is not daddy. It's not your family, you don't have to love them. They're not even on the same level as a politician, they're just some guys making a game. Is it cool to be jerks to them? No, it's not (Well, they -have- ignored us at Cryptic North, and that still irks me), but at the same time I'm pretty sure all of those guys don't need someone tooting their horn and defending their honor.

    If Cryptic were concerned with its reputation, they'd take it upon themselves to defend it. If they made a bad decision with something, it's their job to explain it and deal with it- not ours as fans. If they wanted people speaking highly of their game to bring in new players- they'd be advertising it. It's their job, they get a paycheck for it, let them do it. I'm not slamming them, I'm pointing back at the player base. If you disagree with something, fine- but too many times a complaint gets shot down because some slavering fanboi tears into the critic 'because he really likes this game and Cryptic'.

    That, my friend, is toxic. Or at least what I think is the worst possible element in a gaming community. Why? Because the people who dislike the game, and aren't happy with it? They'll eventually leave. The fanbois stay and try to run everyone off.
  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    forgot what I was going to say... here braincell, where are you?

    the other thign to remember is
    a happy customer may tell one person, an unhappy one usually tells at least 10
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Because the people who dislike the game, and aren't happy with it? They'll eventually leave.
    Jaybezz and Angelphoenix would seem to disagree with you...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    No. They're not.

    Not comic books ones but video games ones there are VERY BIG differences and diffrent rules apply but a super hero is a super hero ^__^
    Was having an argument with some buddies in game whos faster Flash or Sonic :P

    You could say all the heroes we make are video game ones also. Is your hero less of a super hero because its in a video game?

    Purposely going off target because this is one of the nicer MMO communities and far from toxic , yes theres doom and gloom but all game forums are like this , you should have a looksie at TORS at the moment.

    Thats real toxic ._.
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