Suggestion about PFF

iceih03 · July 2013

As it is working now PFF is not very useful, because when it's protection runs out you are less protected than using an offensive passive, it helps to prevent a peak damage but not more than superstating constitution.

I was thinking about this limitation in PFF and I thought that it can be modified to work similar to Congress of Selves, so it will still be weak as a defense for tanks but it can be useful for a hybrid who can switch between defensive/offensive role. It remains as the weaker defense and it will be the weaker offense, but the new versatility may make it more a interesting choice for multipurpose builds.

This way this passive will have a real purpose: versatility, becoming the more offensive of the "tanks" and/or the less squishy of the DPSers depening on the team needs.

It can even have 2 new advantages to increase DPS so the player can choose where to focus in defense shield strength or DPS bonus.

Unknown · July 2013

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flamingbunnyman · July 2013

The best "fix" for PFF, in my opinion, would be to just add a weak version of Invulnerability to it, like what Unstoppable has - maybe a bit stronger. That way, it would always stop some incoming damage, even if the shielding was broken.

iceih03 · July 2013

The mechanic will be the same as it is now, but being able to equip it in an offensive passive slot will let you change role taking advantage of the role benefits.

Another improve, if the role bonus is not enough, it can be a new advantage, atm it has:

Personal Force Field (Rank 2) - 2 Advantage Points
+ 1,067 damage shield
+ 192 shield per 3 sec

Personal Force Field (Rank 3) - 2 Advantage Points
+ 1,281 damage shield
+ 230 shield per 3 sec

It can have a new one (as example I copied the Kinetic's manipulation adv divided by 2):

Kinetic Manipulation - 2 Advantage Points
+ 10% Ranged Physical Damage
+ 3% Physical Damage resist
+ 12% Ranged Physical Damage resist

bluhman · July 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

The best "fix" for PFF, in my opinion, would be to just add a weak version of Invulnerability to it, like what Unstoppable has - maybe a bit stronger. That way, it would always stop some incoming damage, even if the shielding was broken.

Mostly agreed. Though it should be more like a weak version of Defiance than a weak Invuln (So, like a max 30% resist all damage effect instead of like -100 damage per hit.) Add that to an increase in base forcefield strength and the removal of Compassion scaling.

If it's got a well-ranked Field Surge to back it up, along with some dodge, it does just fine, albeit requires slightly different tactics. Then again, any defense passive does fine with dodges.

smoochan · July 2013

Block just needs to recharge the shield fast enough to matter.

theravenforce · July 2013

I've made countless posts about PFF and ways to increase effectiveness, as it stands now, as long as you block, carry field surge and take advantage of dodge/avoid mechanic it is passable.

Cyrone can tank with PFF, I am able to tank with it (not as well as Cyrone as his build is different to mine).

However, to make PFF better it needs to be able to absorb and resist damage as an added component (as I have said countless times).

PFF was however recently fixed as it's regeneration per 3 sec numbers were vastly lacking.

PFF as a defensive passive should not really boost damage out going damage. It should do what a force field does, aka, protect.

This can be achieved by adding a decent Damage Resistance OR Damage Absorb number to PFF.

An effect like this can be simulated if you use IDF (another thing which was recently fixed to work OVER PFF instead of under it).

iceih03 · July 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

PFF as a defensive passive should not really boost damage out going damage. It should do what a force field does, aka, protect.

This is exactly the key in the thread, would we accept to make it no longer a defensive passive and change it to be hybrid like Congress of Selves? According to the answers it's a no, but well I was just trying to change the center of the problem, instead of improving its defense capabilities, giving it versatility.

iceih03 wrote: »

Another improve, if the role bonus is not enough, it can be a new advantage

About the damage bonus as I said it is only if the role bonus is not enough, which I doubt.

snoggymack22 · July 2013

iceih03 wrote: »

T would we accept to make it no longer a defensive passive and change it to be hybrid like Congress of Selves?

Thematically, a "personal force field" is really rooted in the concept of defense. So nah, I don't think your idea to turn it into not a defensive passive will get much traction.

smoochan · July 2013

In a way, defensive passives are offensive passives, just in a round-a-bout way. Because they protect you passively, you can just focus on attacking constantly.

...that really just pointed out a still-remaining flaw in PFFs design didn't it?

Oh well, carry on.

superalfgorn · July 2013

I think that PFF is fine if not spectacular, at least now that most things go on TOP of it.

I think that to complete it and differentiate it from the rest of the passives it needs a different mechanic.

I suggest taking from what already exists in the force framework: feeding you energy for a % of damage taken. This is makes it similar to Protection Field and Force Shield.

And yes having PFF scaling off Compassion is rather weird and in contradiction with the way other passives such as Medical Nanites work. It should be better from the start and should not scale off things that boost shields... otherwise Compassion becomes mandatory!

theravenforce · July 2013

superalfgorn wrote: »

I think that PFF is fine if not spectacular, at least now that most things go on TOP of it.

This should have been a common sense thing from the start, so in my eyes, this was just a long standing bug which has been fixed.

superalfgorn wrote: »

I think that to complete it and differentiate it from the rest of the passives it needs a different mechanic.

Agreed, damage reflection, knock back resistance, damage absorb are all viable ways to grant PFF that secondary utility it needs.

superalfgorn wrote: »

I suggest taking from what already exists in the force framework: feeding you energy for a % of damage taken. This is makes it similar to Protection Field and Force Shield.

Whilst this may seem like a good idea, it would make it no different to the other two powers you stated and it would kill off PFF users in instances where high energy is actually detrimental to survival such as in Nemesis Confrontation. As a force field it should get some base damage absorb and resistance to KB (in a similar fashion if not stronger than Unstoppable Passive), that would make it the first and only defensive passive to actually be useful against knock mechanics.

Personal Force Field needs to have (in addition to the aforementioned utilities) a defensive attribute when the shields go down. Currently, it is the ONLY passive in game which can be removed fully in PvE, before death. This could be rectified by a scaling damage resistance/absorb mechanic which starts off small and as shields go down it increases in values, making it very hard to actually remove PFF.

PFF used to be more of a "Defend- Your - Passive" rather than a Defensive Passive, in many ways it still is. Granted taking powers to make your defensive passive worth while is needed in most circumstances, but personally to make PFF suitable as a force field (in my eyes) I do a lot of defending, blocking etc to make it feel like a force field, which is sad really.

superalfgorn wrote: »

And yes having PFF scaling off Compassion is rather weird and in contradiction with the way other passives such as Medical Nanites work. It should be better from the start and should not scale off things that boost shields... otherwise Compassion becomes mandatory!

There are a lot of odd things with regards PFF and its interactions in game with other mechanics.

For example:

- Breaking out of a hold, via break free damage from Z spamming will damage your PFF.

- Compassion boosts PFF to insane numbers, I personally think this is odd. I do like it increasing temp shields like Protection Field and Mindful Reinforcement but PFF...not so much.

- Force Power sets only form power "IDF" is a non standard form, scales horribly with super stats and does not have a stacking mechanic of any sort. Even Mental Discipline has a stacking mechanic and it's also non standard.

- Personal Force Field can be instantly removed using Energy Storm, as for some odd reason, PFF is tagged as a containment field and is absorbed in the buffing of Energy Storm's Damage.

- There is an entire faction in game dedicated to targeting Personal Force Field and Regeneration users..namely VIPER. The use of Pulson Tech Rifles, inverts PFF values so the bleed through damage is increased from the normal 5% to 95% and the damage absorb is reduced from 95% to 5%.

Enjoy

smoochan · July 2013

Knockback resistance makes a lot of sense. You can't very well knock me back if your attack doesn't even get through the shield. Just make it so that the knock back resistance scales down the less health your shield has, but when your shield is full you have so much knock resist that Caliga himself couldn't move you.

Maybe hold resistance too? Those bolas and shadow tentacles can't hold me if they're wrapped around my shield.

bluhman · July 2013

smoochan wrote: »

Knockback resistance makes a lot of sense. You can't very well knock me back if your attack doesn't even get through the shield. Just make it so that the knock back resistance scales down the less health your shield has, but when your shield is full you have so much knock resist that Caliga himself couldn't move you.

Maybe hold resistance too? Those bolas and shadow tentacles can't hold me if they're wrapped around my shield.

The current graphical iteration of PFF seems to imply that the field is a veeery thin layer above your character - so, basically, a microscopic layer of padding, which probably wouldn't stop any sort of knocking stuff.

Balance-terms, actually, I love that idea. Though I also wonder if a PFF redux could also entail a graphical update, where PFF is like an invisible spherical shield, and when it's hit, the sphere makes a pulse of light that goes down its sides. Or better yet, a pulse originating from where the offending attack did. Or maybe I'm envisioning this thing too vividly.

theravenforce · July 2013

bluhman wrote: »

The current graphical iteration of PFF seems to imply that the field is a veeery thin layer above your character - so, basically, a microscopic layer of padding, which probably wouldn't stop any sort of knocking stuff.

Balance-terms, actually, I love that idea. Though I also wonder if a PFF redux could also entail a graphical update, where PFF is like an invisible spherical shield, and when it's hit, the sphere makes a pulse of light that goes down its sides. Or better yet, a pulse originating from where the offending attack did. Or maybe I'm envisioning this thing too vividly.

Nope, I actually envisioned this passive to be an actual dome, than a skin tight layer shield, even in a "realistic" application a skin tight force field would be useless. Maybe that's why PFF fails so hard..

But this was what I said many months ago...

theravenforce wrote: »

PFF's outward graphic to be like this

This

Just size wise, and dome shape though...

falchoin · July 2013

Reading this thread has given me some ideas for a suggestion, so forgive me if I rehash some things while adding a bit of spin.

- Remove the Compassion scaling of PFF

+ Auxillary shielding mechanic built into the base power: PFF users get an additional 30%/40%/50% resist (R1/R2/R3 respectively) that kicks in once the shield is brought down below 25%. Auxillary shielding lasts 20 seconds with a 30 second internal cooldown.

+ Allow heals to recharge the PFF. Health damage is healed first. Any overhealing gets converted to PFF shielding.

+ Change Field Surge to not only recharge PFF shielding plus overshield but also drastically increase the shield recharge rate for 12/15/18 seconds (R1/R2/R3 respectively). Field Surge recharge bonus would stack additively with the blocking shield regen bonus.

+ Remove the shield regen penalty for taking damage.

bluhman · July 2013

falchoin wrote: »

Reading this thread has given me some ideas for a suggestion, so forgive me if I rehash some things while adding a bit of spin.

- Remove the Compassion scaling of PFF

+ Auxillary shielding mechanic built into the base power: PFF users get an additional 30%/40%/50% resist (R1/R2/R3 respectively) that kicks in once the shield is brought down below 25%. Auxillary shielding lasts 20 seconds with a 30 second internal cooldown.
I forget, does DR go above or below PFF currently? Well, in any case, this reduction thing should probably scale a liiitle bit with superstats.

+ Allow heals to recharge the PFF. Health damage is healed first. Any overhealing gets converted to PFF shielding.
One of the things I like about PFF is that it's the one passive (aside from perhaps Regen) that doesn't cheese self-heals to high hell. Really, this is the one opportunity where the user might have the ability to make an actual shield-wall character instead of a rapid-response self-medic.

+ Change Field Surge to not only recharge PFF shielding plus overshield but also drastically increase the shield recharge rate for 12/15/18 seconds (R1/R2/R3 respectively). Field Surge recharge bonus would stack additively with the blocking shield regen bonus.

+ Remove the shield regen penalty for taking damage.

So I like most of these.

falchoin · July 2013

Hmm, that's a good point about the self heal cheese. What if healing from self wasn't allowed to recharge the PFF but healing from outside sources did? It'd be nice to let support characters with heals still feel useful.

As far as I know resistances and dodge reduce the damage PFF recieves. Having the aux shielding resistances scale with SS could work too.

theravenforce · July 2013

falchoin wrote: »

Hmm, that's a good point about the self heal cheese. What if healing from self wasn't allowed to recharge the PFF but healing from outside sources did? It'd be nice to let support characters with heals still feel useful.

As far as I know resistances and dodge reduce the damage PFF recieves. Having the aux shielding resistances scale with SS could work too.

As I have said before on another PFF thread, healing wouldn't be solving the actual issue of PFF being a poor passive. It would be applying a band aid to the problem instead of buffing the actual passive.

And making outside sources only affect PFF healing? You might as well hang a sign on the passive saying DO NOT USE.

Making players with a certain passive rely on healers more than usual is not the way to go. EVER.

Dodge/avoid + Resistances + IDF + Defense + Protection Field etc now all benefit PFF.

In combat regeneration penalty should not exist period. Regeneration doesn't have such a thing and whats even better is that regeneration cannot be removed before death (short of unslotting the passive manually).

As for resistances...

I posted a little something last year about PFF and scaling resistances....

>>Here<<

falchoin · July 2013

theravenforce wrote: »

*snip*

Did you read the post I had prior to the one you quoted?

theravenforce · July 2013

falchoin wrote: »

Did you read the post I had prior to the one you quoted?

Yes, which is why I'd rather first solve the issue of PFF being a defend-your-passive style passive than patch it better with a change to the healing mechanic.

Seeing as PFF can be brought down relatively quickly the suggested auxiliary shielding mechanic would be activated at too low a % and player would hardly benefit from it. Trust me, I've used PFF for a while.

The resistances should be innate to the passive and automatically kick in when the shields get below 50% of max shields, as that is when everything starts to go to hell.

EDIT: Your proposed change to field surge would make sense, a lot of sense actually.

I can even recall having a discussion about 15 pages long on the PTS thread as to why healing for PFF should not be allowed etc, I really am not up for reposting all of that again or going through it.

PFF has always been a unique passive, but not for necessarily good reasons. We all seem to want to make this passive better (finally, where were you guys way back when Q_Q), so slap some innate mechanics on it and some utilities.

EDIT 2: It's 2AM, @_@ X_X, I'll answer later... baiz (Sorry for any spelling errors, my brain is practically shutting down right now lol)

falchoin · July 2013

The aux shielding benefit activation point is debatable for sure. I figured 25% since that would be about the time you'd want to use Field Surge. That way you'd have tougher shields which are regenerating faster (assuming my other suggestion for Field Surge was implimented).

I agree the PFF recharge rate should not be reduced when taking damage, which I had also mentioned previously. Tanks should not be penalized for doing their job.

jennymachx · July 2013

I'm not sure if the following suggestion makes sense on a thematic level but here goes;

Maybe make PFF get a significant damage reduction buff to the shield when the player dodges. The rest of the defensive passives already work pretty well on their own without dodge, but I'm pretty sure that most people focus on increasing dodge + avoidance eventually regardless of build, so maybe give PFF a unique advantage to do with dodging.

Another suggestion would be to allow for Force's energy builder the ability to target self. When targetting self, the Force Bolts "reinforce" the PFF and replenish PFF's shield points at a rate that's perhaps comparable to Radiance's self-healing.

theravenforce · July 2013

jennymachx wrote: »

Another suggestion would be to allow for Force's energy builder the ability to target self. When targetting self, the Force Bolts "reinforce" the PFF and replenish PFF's shield points at a rate that's perhaps comparable to Radiance's self-healing.

This can sort of be done using Energy Refraction Advantage, BUT, that doesn't mean this idea should not be implemented.

My goodness this is a lovely idea.

Seriously!! Where WERE you guys last year when I was arguing this over on the PTS threads lol :biggrin:

Unknown · July 2013

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Unknown · July 2013

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jennymachx · July 2013

gradii wrote: »

I despise that idea for the same reason I dislike radiance. making an EB target yourself makes combat more difficult.

It really doesn't.

If you're a keyboard user: Press F1

If you're a Xbox gamepad user: Bind one of the D-pad directional buttons that isn't "Up" (that's for interaction) to "/targetself", or a certain trigger / side + button to it.

superalfgorn · August 2013

Mhh another self-targeting energy builder would be nice, but it needs to create a thin shield regardless of PFF use, I like the idea.

Knockback resistance would be very nice. On Sun Titan, my PFF/Compassion ranged tank I have this huge knockback problem: I use PRE as a PSS for Compassion/Sentinel Aura and I fly of the screen with a minion punch

However, scaling down as the shield goes down works thematically, but defeats the purpose of giving PFF some utility when the shield is depleted.

The suggestion of Field Surge boosting shield regeneration is awesome and should be done NOW

Unknown · August 2013

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jennymachx · August 2013

gradii wrote: »

it does. I use power autotargeting. often when I use radiance it spams on myself not the intended target. that mechanic would need to be fixed before introducing more broken self targeting energy builders.

And that's something easily fixed with the single press of a key or button.

Still not seeing why it's so difficult to do. If your main argument is that you want to use auto-targeting exclusively and no manual targeting at all then the problem isn't with the mechanic.

cyrone · August 2013

Oh. Another PFF thread. Well, I've not got much to say here that already hasn't been covered....but for those interested, the order of mitigation is:

Dodge -> Absorb (Invuln/IDF) -> Field Surge -> Protection Field / Mindful / Energy Refraction -> Resistances -> PFF -> HP

What I will chime in with in regards to what has been discussed is that the power is fine. Just do what the norm is for any passive, dodge / avoid gear.

monsterdaddy · August 2013

Nah, it's still a little weak. I think PFF needs to lose the decreased shield regeneration when under attack.

That said, Cyrone this is for you!
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3453411#post3453411

flamingbunnyman · August 2013

cyrone wrote: »

Dodge -> Absorb (Invuln/IDF) -> Field Surge -> Protection Field / Mindful / Energy Refraction -> Resistances -> PFF -> HP

I was about to create a thread asking about this, so instead I'm going to indulge in a tiny threadjack.

Rounding numbers off so it's easier to work with, if I had 100 Absorb and 100% Resistance, and took a 1000 point hit, I would take

(1000 - 100) / 2 = 450 damage

And NOT

(100 / 2) - 100 = 400 damage

That makes the Absorb of rather questionable use, doesn't it? In fact, the more Damage Resistance you have, the less useful it becomes.

monsterdaddy · August 2013

One more tweak is needed for PFF. As a tank, heals generate threat but pff refresh and field surge do not. I think in rank role these two need to generate threat.

tdits · August 2013

That threat thing makes sense, but I think the two things it needs most are for the devs to remove the regen penalty from taking damage and fix it so that breakfree damage doesn't damage your PFF. Holds bring my shields down faster than most damaging attacks do.

theravenforce · August 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

That makes the Absorb of rather questionable use, doesn't it? In fact, the more Damage Resistance you have, the less useful it becomes.

The absorb frm IDF has got to be the worst scaling on a form or even a power in all of CO. The absorb from IDF is a little wonky with regards PFF. I can tank on ForceGirls 8.8k without IDF so I might drop that form altogether....

Suggestion about PFF

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