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Costumes and Courtesies

cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
That's a play on words for 'Customs and Courtesies'. See that? Clever. Like a fox, or maybe some kinda weasel or badger or something.

Anyway, since 'Pet Peeves' got nuked, I figured this is the time to be more clear and nice about things.

Don't target specific taste or insult someone blatantly. I mean, I'm sick of demons as much as the next guy (but that's mostly a roleplayer thing), but I've seen some that actually look cool.

Pet Peeve 1: I couldn't snap a picture, but I got near someone who was blasting AoPM, Dark Aura, and Dark Speed at the same time. Not to mention, the massive epic Therakiel wings didn't help. Now, this wouldn't be so bad if the person was out leveling or whatever- but this was in a social setting. I -do- play with sound (not music), so this obnoxious racket gets annoying- not to mention the eyesore of an effect with the purple, red, and black on top of the massive purple wings all up in my face. I mean, just a little courtesy- and 'Y don't u turn ur volume off if u don't liek it' isn't the correct response, man. It's cool you have Darkspeed and Dark Aura and all- but... I dunno.. stroll up and... deactivate it, I guess?

Pet Peeve 2: Up front- I'm working on a solution for this. I need some help. The default body structure CO uses is AWFUL. It's not even remotely human. I know some people just want to up and play the game, but come on, man- it looks weird. Like, gross-weird. Go back and doctor it. Those sliders are a HUGE part of a costume, and tinkering with them can make the same costume look either silly or awesome if you do it right.

Pet Peeve 3: Grower-things. Magnifier devices. At least when you insist on standing in entrances and just being all up in the place. Yeah, you can maneuver around them but it sucks when you're bio-stalking for someone who's not insane and you keep clicking on Colosso the Obscenely Huge because their box is half your screen.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on

Comments

  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I can definitely agree with 1... I don't mind AoPM that much, but I always found dark aura to be incredibly ugly at times. Although, I do find it funny when somebody has the colour set to orange or green, then it just looks like incredible pit stank and a constant fart cloud respectively.

    Peeves for me would just be highlighter colours mashed together (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow). They're nice separately, but they look like a bit of an eyesore mashed together with black added into the mix. It works for your printers, not your hoodie.

    Funny thing about that, I got mocked by a guy wearing those exact same colours with a randomized wardrobe for my main's name and the SG she was in at the time, "Too Sexy". I kinda chuckled at that. >.>
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    Pet Peeve 2: Up front- I'm working on a solution for this. I need some help. The default body structure CO uses is AWFUL. It's not even remotely human. I know some people just want to up and play the game, but come on, man- it looks weird. Like, gross-weird. Go back and doctor it. Those sliders are a HUGE part of a costume, and tinkering with them can make the same costume look either silly or awesome if you do it right.

    I also can't stand CO proportions.

    http://satapatis.deviantart.com/art/Templates-330613403

    This is as close as I could get to realistic human proportions. Those are, however, not very heroic and for men in tights they do require buffing up a bit. For example - wider shoulders and bulkier arms.

    Now, problem with how CO hands and feet are scalling, is that hands must be enlarged slightly when you are making pose with clenched fists, otherwise they are looking too small.

    But it's basically as close as you can get to normal human proportions. A good base for further tweaks.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I also can't stand CO proportions.

    http://satapatis.deviantart.com/art/Templates-330613403

    This is as close as I could get to realistic human proportions. Those are, however, not very heroic and for men in tights they do require buffing up a bit. For example - wider shoulders and bulkier arms.

    Now, problem with how CO hands and feet are scalling, is that hands must be enlarged slightly when you are making pose with clenched fists, otherwise they are looking too small.

    But it's basically as close as you can get to normal human proportions. A good base for further tweaks.
    Can you throw those in a thread in 'Costumes and Concepts' and make one?

    I'll work on my 'Comic Book Average' body and such.

    AND PLEASE. For the love of GOD will someone make a small, thin, effeminate male so people aren't using weird looking female 'guys'?
  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Can you throw those in a thread in 'Costumes and Concepts' and make one?

    I'll work on my 'Comic Book Average' body and such.

    AND PLEASE. For the love of GOD will someone make a small, thin, effeminate male so people aren't using weird looking female 'guys'?

    That's another one I find weird... I get that you wanna look slim and whatnot, but you kinda come off as a dude with child-bearing hips. It's just bizarre sometimes.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    Can you throw those in a thread in 'Costumes and Concepts' and make one?

    I'll work on my 'Comic Book Average' body and such.

    I'm getting to it, but I need to make few small corrections in templates. Like taking into account that "vixen" pose makes arms looks longer, but any other pose makes them looks shorter on females. Or adding template for larger atheltic female, used by me on Duskwing.
    kemmicals wrote: »
    That's another one I find weird... I get that you wanna look slim and whatnot, but you kinda come off as a dude with child-bearing hips. It's just bizarre sometimes.
    There is no good solution for this. You can remove wider hips by playing with sliders, but you can't remove maps for breasts (and frankly, I don't know why those maps are even needed, polygons should be enough). On the other hand, you can't make feminine looking face on male body. It's always too square.
    Which is why I'm not even trying to make this kind of look on one of my robots. It's pointless. Unless I'm using bulky chest piece, cyberlord head and skeletal robot limbs. Then it's really genderless, but only then.
  • monsterdaddymonsterdaddy Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    While I totally agree the default body structures are awful I think that's a good thing.

    IMHO, the better costume players will tweak them to the right proportions and the ones who don't care won't. I'd prefer to stand out from the crowd of crappy costume makers.
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    My biggest issue with our tailor is the fact that you can do a solid mesomorph or ectomorph, but an endomorph is impossible without one or 2 pieces. I want legitimately big, for males and females. Soft, curved, chubby... I want my blob hero, and I don't wanna use a specific piece or 2 to pull it off. Even chubby men look like muscular men wearing a few shirts, and forget a skinny girl. I thought making a fat girl was impossible, then I tried to make someone with a realistic b cup wear just about anything.

    My biggest issue with this when it pertains to costuming is a simple matter of proportions. If you're skinny as hell, with amazingly long legs, and a girl? Make your arms match. That's nature, it's just what happens. Golden ratio, etc... With very few exceptions. Know that if you're a skinny girl with a huge chest and normal sized arms, I'm gonna think you're a mutant with a boob job. On the guy side? Skinny guys with maxed muscle sliders... It doesn't really work that way most of the time. Look at your Bruce Lee or Michael Phelps pictures as inspiration. They're still not psychotically ripped, because there's a level of muscle development needed to gain that max slider. That, as an ectomorph myself, is actually an impossibility. You start to look more meso, and bigger, when you gain that kind of muscle definition. An ectomorph would need body fat near 2% to pull off a maxed muscle slider. Bigger frames have more room to work with, to gain that kind of definition.

    I'm fully aware of the fact that this is totally me nerding out and not something most other people would really take into consideration.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I also can't stand CO proportions.

    http://satapatis.deviantart.com/art/Templates-330613403

    This is as close as I could get to realistic human proportions. Those are, however, not very heroic and for men in tights they do require buffing up a bit. For example - wider shoulders and bulkier arms.

    Now, problem with how CO hands and feet are scalling, is that hands must be enlarged slightly when you are making pose with clenched fists, otherwise they are looking too small.

    But it's basically as close as you can get to normal human proportions. A good base for further tweaks.

    The examples in the pic are pretty much similar to body templates that I use for my female toons, though it would be nice to have an actual waist slider.
  • flamingbunnymanflamingbunnyman Posts: 2,035 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I also can't stand CO proportions.

    I see a lot of people complain about this. I don't get it.

    1365461158591.jpg

    608645_rescue_heroes.jpg

    cart-popeye1.jpg

    evolucion-de-mario-bros.jpg

    Comics, cartoons, and video games frequently create their own standards for what characters look like, and often, these result in characters with unrealistic proportions.

    Why is is unacceptable for this game to have a unique art direction? Why it must conform to "realistic proportions", when it's OK for so many others to deviate?
    _________________________________________________
    @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    I see a lot of people complain about this. I don't get it.

    1365461158591.jpg

    608645_rescue_heroes.jpg

    cart-popeye1.jpg

    evolucion-de-mario-bros.jpg

    Comics, cartoons, and video games frequently create their own standards for what characters look like, and often, these result in characters with unrealistic proportions.

    Why is is unacceptable for this game to have a unique art direction? Why it must conform to "realistic proportions", when it's OK for so many others to deviate?

    First example is Rob Liefield. Never use Rob Liefield as an example of drawing human anatomy. Guy is bashed and disliked for a reason - he's terribad.
    Domino (especially her hips) and Cable (those SHORT arms) looks awful on this pic (not to mention their muscles, or whatever it is supposed to be). Liefield doesn't have unique art style, but more like random collection of poorly drawn anatomy. He's not creating standards. He simply doesn't know how to draw people.
    Or it's his personal unique standard, strangely rejected by probably every other comic artist. And a large portion of comic book readers.

    Secondly - all your examples are flat and very stylised 2d art. CO is 3d art, not really cell shaded, not made heavily stylised like Ultimate Spiderman or Borderlands (and even those games are closer to normal anatomy).

    CO is plain, not very stylised 3d art. In this kind of art you need to make models at least partially realistic, otherwise it will be rightfully disliked by many people.

    And I wouldn't say if CO has "unique" art direction. Game doesn't know how it wants to look. It isn't very stylised, it isn't realistic. It doesn't look like a movie, nor like an actual comic book. Neither like a cartoon.

    The closest equivalent to CO graphical style is Toy Story movie made only with cheap action figures.

    If CO was indeed heavy stylised and looking like Incredibles or Batman Beyond, probably nobody would complain. Alas, it isn't.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Not everything transfers over into other styles....

    O0vt13L.jpg

    That's Patric from Spongebob Squarepants.

    Just in case you didn't really want to go to sleep.
  • akirasanbeerakirasanbeer Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    There is definitely style to it (think more Street Fighter/Fist of the North Star level of "anatomy"), but alas art direction is entirely subjective. Shouldn't really be dogged because it doesn't look like a Ross/Vallejo painting.

    and thank you, Cyber, for that bit of nightmare fuel...
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    Cryptic art director declared in his portfolio that CO is supposed to look like a comic book. Western one.
    It doesn't.
    So it's a wrong artistic choice, botched job.

    Last time when I've checked Street Fighter and Fist of the North Star weren't western comics. And this indeed is CO closer equivalent in terms of style, CAPCOM fighting game.


    Now, it's hard to tell what CoX tried to emulate, because it had very generic and dated graphics.
    But DCUO and Marvel Universe are on purpose made to be stylised like comic book movie - and they deliver it. Good job in terms of graphic design.


    And CO? If it at least looked as any kind of western comics of any age... Or at least one of this genre cartoons...
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Posts: 5,508 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Cryptic art director declared in his portfolio that CO is supposed to look like a comic book. Western one.
    It doesn't.

    Sure it does. Just not the ones you prefer it looked like?

    Discounting the Liefeld art above was the first indication. Because yeah, he's got a rep for being bad at anatomy. But he's part of a defining "age" of comic book art. Liefeld is just representative of a whole host of other artists, many of whom came through Liefeld's own studio. Guys like Danny Miki, or Fraga, or even Brandon Peterson who at least got away from over cross hatching later on.

    Anyways, CO's proportions fit in with a style of western comic book. You can see this by making a somewhat standard spandex wearing male with the heroic stance. It looks like a cross between City of Heroes and Freedom Force vs. The Third Reich. So it's going for a more classic, silver age-y look. A lot of this gets lost with the customization options. So if you purposely make huge round eyes, demon wings, pig tails, mecha tails, dark armor, etc, you totally lose the basic standard hero format that the game's initial design was going for. But I mean that's just users utilizing customization.
    Last time when I've checked Street Fighter and Fist of the North Star weren't western comics. And this indeed is CO closer equivalent in terms of style, CAPCOM fighting game.

    Street Fighter was published as a Western Comic book.
    But DCUO and Marvel Universe are on purpose made to be stylised like comic book movie - and they deliver it. Good job in terms of graphic design.

    I'm not keen to hand out priase to Marvel Heroes Online for graphic design. It's sort of Diablo meets Ultimate Alliance and the character design is rather tiny even on the best screens with the best graphics. Also, the chibi-manga inspired Superhero Squad is another knock against Marvel's work in the MMO genre is you really have issues with the Street Fighter references above.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sure it does. Just not the ones you prefer it looked like?

    Discounting the Liefeld art above was the first indication. Because yeah, he's got a rep for being bad at anatomy. But he's part of a defining "age" of comic book art. Liefeld is just representative of a whole host of other artists, many of whom came through Liefeld's own studio. Guys like Danny Miki, or Fraga, or even Brandon Peterson who at least got away from over cross hatching later on.

    Anyways, CO's proportions fit in with a style of western comic book. You can see this by making a somewhat standard spandex wearing male with the heroic stance. It looks like a cross between City of Heroes and Freedom Force vs. The Third Reich. So it's going for a more classic, silver age-y look. A lot of this gets lost with the customization options. So if you purposely make huge round eyes, demon wings, pig tails, mecha tails, dark armor, etc, you totally lose the basic standard hero format that the game's initial design was going for. But I mean that's just users utilizing customization.

    You see, I hear both of you- but I refuse to believe that CO is paying a nod to ANY comic books. It honestly makes me feel as if it's less a tribute, more a parody- and they're making fun of me with jokes that aren't funny.

    As far as style goes- whoever made the proportions in CO was actually WORSE than Liefeld.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    Sure it does. Just not the ones you prefer it looked like?
    No, it doesn't.

    Spare yourself strawman arguments with Lee and Liefield, they are overused and empty.
    I know how silver/bronze age looks.

    CO doesn not look like any mainstream design of superhero comic books.

    CO anatomy with greatly oversized feet and hads, twiggy limbs and tiny heads certainly isn't mainstream for neither silver nor bronze age. Not even golden age.
    CO method of shading/defining models, not with lines drawn on textures, but instead with a lot of heavy mapping also has no similarity in older comics. There was nothing like gradients before Iron Age because gradients were damn impossible to do with golden/silver/bronze age printing techniques. Only lineart and flat colors.
    And so-called comic outlining in CO is poorly made - too thin and nearly invisible on monitors with higher resolution.

    Compared to CO character models those drawings are a pinnacle of realistic anatomy:
    ACTION+COMICS+252001.jpg
    tumblr_mjj99ivz1T1r2ntbyo1_400.jpg
    tumblr_mj6dt42G9b1qbgo38o1_500.jpg
    Third one is closest to CO proportions, but even this one is not that exaggerated.
    So it's going for a more classic, silver age-y look.
    It is NOT, see above. It may look partially as RTS oriented graphics for Freedom Force where character models had to be simplified, because they were small and it was old game, but not like any superhero comic book, regardless of age.
    Street Fighter was published as a Western Comic book.
    Not relevant. It's only adaptation of fighting Japanese game (and game with sprites made in manga style), not superhero comic book. Not the kind of look the game about western superheroes should have.
    Especially since Udon Crew is studio specialised in western imitations of manga comic books.
    I'm not keen to hand out priase to Marvel Heroes Online for graphic design. It's sort of Diablo meets Ultimate Alliance and the character design is rather tiny even on the best screens with the best graphics.
    You can see character models on their website. Gameplay may be mediocre, but at least models fit with the genre. Now, in actual play those models may be too small to see in details. But considering design work, they're done much better than in CO.
    As for Hero Squad online - it's kid oriented. Pointless to compare it with others. Irrelevant.


    It takes too much effort to identify CO graphic style with comis book age, too much too obscure examples to defend it, when it should be obvious from a first look that this is a superhero comic book game.

    CO art style fails to deliver what it should.
    Anyways, CO's proportions fit in with a style of western comic book. You can see this by making a somewhat standard spandex wearing male with the heroic stance
    No, I can't. It's exactly with spandex wearers when I have to spend most of the time for fixing their anatomy, because with no armor parts covering them this atrocity of CO proportions is even more visible.
  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Not everything transfers over into other styles....

    O0vt13L.jpg

    That's Patric from Spongebob Squarepants.

    Just in case you didn't really want to go to sleep.

    Or if you really don't feel like sleeping tonight...
    flaky%20is%20a%20faggot.png

    ... Kinda proves my usual points that not everything looks good with ponies.

    To keep on topic, I wouldn't really use Street Fighter as a reference for anatomy. The artist really like to exaggerate the features and figures of some characters. Take Chun Li for example:
    street_fighter_4_chun-li.jpg

    Get a load of them thighs. You can tell the character artist had fun with those. Also take a look at how large those hands are. A little more detailed, but they're about as big and goofy as COs.
  • akirasanbeerakirasanbeer Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Part of the reason why I used SF4 as a ref; takes what's there and exaggerates the crap out of it.
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    also people forget that Western comic style isnt actually one style. Even within the western comic realm the styles vary greatly. Some are more realistic proportions some are not, even sometimes the time period depends on style. Like the artwork of Superman back inthe days of 60s, early 70s and prior, more subdued proportions, like many comics in those days. Then in the 80s and 90s you got a lot of bulging over blown muscles and other odd anatomy styles that wasnt realistic but was western comic style.

    No CO is not classic Superman comic book art style but doesnt mean it isnt western comic style. The superman artwork of that era is only one example of western comic book style, not the only western comic book style.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    No CO is not classic Superman comic book art style but doesnt mean it isnt western comic style. The superman artwork of that era is only one example of western comic book style, not the only western comic book style.

    Question:

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the golden/silver age.

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the bronze age.

    Neither typical iron age.

    Neither majority of modern age.

    So what the hell it does in superhero oriented game?
    I shouldn't be here in the first place.
    It's not Perez, not Romita, not Larsen, not Kirby, not Lee, and not even Liefield (though it do has similar quality to his works, yes).
    So why it's here?
  • artmanpweartmanpwe Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I see a lot of people complain about this. I don't get it.

    1365461158591.jpg...

    ...Comics, cartoons, and video games frequently create their own standards for what characters look like, and often, these result in characters with unrealistic proportions.

    Why is is unacceptable for this game to have a unique art direction? Why it must conform to "realistic proportions", when it's OK for so many others to deviate?

    Yikes! Is that Cable?! Man, I'm glad I stopped reading X-mags in '93.

    Say what one will about manga like Bleach and Deadman Wonderland, at least they are easy on the eyes. Gadzooks!
    ...Since 2009.
    ArtManZupSig7_zps27j4ilyb.jpg
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Question:

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the golden/silver age.

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the bronze age.

    Neither typical iron age.

    Neither majority of modern age.

    So what the hell it does in superhero oriented game?
    I shouldn't be here in the first place.
    It's not Perez, not Romita, not Larsen, not Kirby, not Lee, and not even Liefield (though it do has similar quality to his works, yes).
    So why it's here?

    Just because it aint a rip off of a popular style doesnt mean it doesnt belong i nthe super hero genre.

    How many styles came along since the first super hero comic book? At one point in time they was not the "norm" or exact copy of what was out at the time. If everything stuck only to what is popular and never tried teir own style or own way then there wouldnt be any other style but the golden age look even today. How did we get the modern age look? Someone decided to do soemthing different and it stuck.

    Reason why it's here? Because it's Champions Online not Superman comic artwork rip off.


    Maybe DCUO fits your style better. If the artwork is soooooo horrible in your eyes, the actual better question is, why are YOU here?
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    Just because it aint a rip off of a popular style doesnt mean it doesnt belong i nthe super hero genre.

    I'm sorry, but then it's failed design.

    Point of graphics is to sell game.

    If one is making game with niche graphics, but is advertising it as a game inspired by mainstream medium, then nobody should be surprised with poor reception.

    Because its botched job. Such graphic do not sell your game. And it misses target.

    It's nothing strange that CO art style is criticised. As well as character models. And it's a pretty common criticism, a reason why some players play DCUO instead. Or played CoX before.

    If someone is making game in the vain of Batman and Superman, and others, it must look as Superman, Batman, or others.

    Otherwise, art direction is simply poor. botched, badlyexecuted. It harms the game, its chance for being popular and be successful.

    jaguar40 wrote: »
    If the artwork is soooooo horrible in your eyes, the actual better question is, why are YOU here?
    Oh, look, the same mindless fanboi argument - how you dare criticise! Get out of here!
    Try better, this one is really cheap.

    Too bad DCUO or not, it has nothing to do with people who can't stand atrocious proportions simply because they are terrible. If i were the only person criticising CO "anatomy", then probably you'd be right.

    Alas, it pretty common complain and I can see many people not using default proportions on normal looking toons.
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'm sorry, but then it's failed design.

    Point of graphics is to sell game.

    If one is making game with niche graphics, but is advertising it as a game inspired by mainsteram medium, then nobody should be surprised with poor reception.

    Because its botched job. Such graphic do not sell your game. And it misses target.

    It's nothing strange that CO art style is criticised. As well as character models. And it's a pretty common criticism, a reason why some players play DCUO instead. Or played CoX before.

    If someone is making game in the vain of Batman and Superman, and others, it must look as Superman, Batman, or others.

    Otherwise, art direction is simply poor. botched, badlyexecuted. It harms the game, its chance for being popular and be successful.



    Oh, look, the same mindless fanboi argument - how you dare criticise! Get out of here!
    Truly, not your business.
    But if you must. I can fix my own characters and ignore Cryptic NPC. In RP Cryptic mistakes doesn't mean too much.

    Of course, as many people here, as soon as something new with gameplay similar to CoX/CO emerges, I'm done with CO.

    Failed your eyes because it's not a rip off of the popular style that you like? Yeeeaaaah. that make perfect sense.


    And it's not the fanboi arguement. You're the one that came in basically saying ."I hate CO look. So why is the game here?" So because you dont like it, the game shouldnt exist. So of course I'm going to ask why are you here then? If the game shouldnt exist, because you dont like it, then you can make it easily seem as it dont exist in your world by leaving. Nothing to do with fanboi. Your arguement is nothing but whining about a style that you dont like and thus since you dont like it, and regardless of the people that may like or or find it meh, the entire game shouldnt have been made because it dont meet your standards. Guess what the game is here. Deal with it or yeah leave. No one is forcing you to look at these "god aweful graphics". If you choose to put yourself through the "torture" of looking at it, then that is your choice but stop crying about it, do something about it, or leave it at you dont like the graphics but saying thegame should not exist because you dont like it, is a bit selfish, and come off as if you are full of yourself. Especially when there is a game that fits the style you like and describe out. DCUO. Yet you are here. Your words and actions are saying two different things. You say you dont like it it's horrible, it shouldnt have been made, yet here you are.

    And ya calling CO a botched job? Where is COX? COX wasa good game, yes, but if it's artwork was so perfect, then why didnt it reach player subs into the mllions? Why wasnt it the top game of the MMO world? CO is tsill here COX is not.

    And lets say CO didnt exist, as you wished, where would you be? Not here. On DCUO forum complaining about that artstyle too? Any game that isnt COX isnt good enough for you, yet you still play, odd? Well got news for you. Whether you like the art style or not, some people like CO and glad it exists. If you dont want it to exist to you as I said you can log off and stop putting yourself through the "torture" and sit around and wait unti COX replacement come. First thing you do is resort to name calling. Probably because you now good and well your logic dont make a lick of sense.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    Failed your eyes because it's not a rip off of the popular style .
    Again: this game is advertised as made in popular style. Silver age style and Supes or Batman are default there.

    Got it finally?

    But has graphic not fitting with ANY popular comic book style. No matter age of comic books. Let alone its target age.

    Now you got it what it means - "failed design"?

    It has nothing to do with personal preferences.

    In terms of utility this game graphic does not serve its purpose. Plain and simple.
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Again: this game is advertised as made in popular style. Silver age style and Supes or batman are default there.

    Got it finally?

    But has graphic not fitting with ANY popular comic book style. No matter age of comic books. Let alone its target age.

    Now you got it what it means - "failed design"?

    It has nothing to do with personal preferences.

    In terms of utility this game graphic does not serve its purpose. Plain and simple.

    What ever you say. Guess what it fulfills the purpose for me, I'm playing it and enjoying it. You can join or you want to continue to pout over graphics and be miserable. Your call.
  • kemmicalskemmicals Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ... Because it's totally unheard of to criticize the graphical presentation of things.
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kemmicals wrote: »
    ... Because it's totally unheard of to criticize the graphical presentation of things.

    Well that aint what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that because one person dont like the look of a game, they say it shouldnt exist at all.

    Ok so a person dont like the graphics, that's fine that's dandy, wht sense do it make to say that "I dont like the way it looks. It shouldnt exist."? Was it right for COX to get shut down because someone didnt like the way it looks? Would that be a logical way of putting they agree with the shutdown? Because they didnt like the artstyle so it deserved to be shutdown?
  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    Well that aint what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that because one person dont like the look of a game, they say it shouldnt exist at all.

    Ok so a person dont like the graphics, that's fine that's dandy, wht sense do it make to say that "I dont like the way it looks. It shouldnt exist."? Was it right for COX to get shut down because someone didnt like the way it looks? Would that be a logical way of putting they agree with the shutdown? Because they didnt like the artstyle so it deserved to be shutdown?

    I don't see anywhere that people are saying to get rid of it because they don't like the art.
    @HangingDeath

    Deliciously nutritious!
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    What ever you say. Guess what it fulfills the purpose for me, I'm playing it and enjoying it. You can join or you want to continue to pout over graphics and be miserable. Your call.

    Not sure who proved himself miserable right now, moving to insults.

    Maybe it's a change needed for this game. Leaving graphics as they are, but finally tweaking all NPC body sliders? It's doable. It doesn't require coding, and it could only help. Witchcraft and Sapphire are supposed to be pretty. Not in their present form. :X
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I don't see anywhere that people are saying to get rid of it because they don't like the art.

    "Question:

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the golden/silver age.

    CO style doesn't fit mainstream of the bronze age.

    Neither typical iron age.

    Neither majority of modern age.

    So what the hell it does in superhero oriented game?
    I shouldn't be here in the first place.
    It's not Perez, not Romita, not Larsen, not Kirby, not Lee, and not even Liefield (though it do has similar quality to his works, yes).
    So why it's here? "

    "I'm sorry, but then it's failed design.

    Point of graphics is to sell game."


    "Because its botched job."

    All by meedacthunist



    And as I said, why it's here, because it's CO not Superman comic rip off. Just because it aint, and just because he dont like it, means that CO shouldnt be here?
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Not sure who proved himself miserable right now, moving to insults.

    Maybe it's a change needed for this game. Leaving graphics as they are, but finally tweaking all NPC body sliders? It's doable. It doesn't require coding, and it could only help. Witchcraft and Sapphire are supposed to be pretty. Not in their present form. :X

    You already moved to insults. Remember when you called me a fanboi? Because I just happen to like CO and think it should be here instead of nonexistant as you suggested? Those were your words. Suggesting that since you dont like the look and it's not following the style that you approve of then CO have no right to exist. What expected to throw out name calling and expect someone to thank you for it? You had your chance ot be civil, you blew that and resorted to name calling of fanboi because i just so happen to be playing a game I enjoy and actually kind of like the artwork to tell you the truth but even if I didnt, I wouldnt insult or attempt to insult an entire playerbase sayign a game shouldnt exist because you, personally in your opinion think the artwork sucks. And its not the fact that you hate the artwork I take exception to. Fine you dont like it. But why should a game not deserve to exist because you, in your opinion, hate the artwork?

    You already proved yourself miserable a while ago. I like the game, I'm in a game I enjoy. You're the one that insist on playing a game you hate.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    And as I said, why it's here, because it's CO not Superman comic rip off. Just because it aint, and just because he dont like it, means that CO shouldnt be here?

    Simplified explanation for you - I've asked why this GRAPHIC style is in place. In CO.
    Why it was chosen over graphics more suitable for this job.

    Because I can't fathom it.

    You're probably only one here who couldn't get it.
  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    jaguar40 wrote: »
    And as I said, why it's here, because it's CO not Superman comic rip off. Just because it aint, and just because he dont like it, means that CO shouldnt be here?

    Nowhere do they say the game shouldn't be around. Merely that the graphics don't fit it.

    And I do like the graphics for the game, BUT I'm not a fan of the proportions and lack of realistic body designs.
    @HangingDeath

    Deliciously nutritious!
  • jaguar40jaguar40 Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Simplified explanation for you - I've asked why this GRAPHIC style is in place. In CO.
    Why it was chosen over graphics more suitable for this job.

    Because I can't fathom it.

    You're probably only one here who couldn't get it.

    Then it would have nice that you started with that clarification instead of jumping on and with the name calling with fanboi and stuff.

    If you would of said that in the first place instead of being a butt and name calling, I would have said, ah that clears it up and left it at that.

    Better late than never I guess, but that clears that up.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Superhero-themed games have to strictly adhere to the traditional art styles of comic books for it to be considered acceptable, and using the style of modern three-dimensional computer game graphics is considered a "botched" design?

    I guess you can call the Arkham Batman games failures in that context then. Oh wait, they're not. All of the characters in that game look nothing like their comic-book counterparts in the traditional comic-book visual art style sense, with the exception with Bats himself on some level, but every other aspect that we associate Batman with comic-wise, be it the dark theme or the fundamentals behind the villains he fight; those are preserved. The games are considered very successful even when they don't stick to the traditional comic-book art style.

    While I hardly consider CO a critical success like the Arkham games are, at least it has the legitimacy of being called it superhero-themed for sticking to the fundamentals of the whole superheroes setting even when it doesn't use the traditional comic-book visual art style. Also, since I'm playing a computer game and not actually reading a comic book, I can appreciate graphics to look modern and appealing, and not stick to flat color palettes like those often seen in comic books.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Well, I'll say this-

    You can say whatever you want about DCUO. Yes, the body style in that game is hideous- but that's what you get for hiring a meathead wannabe like Jim Lee as the artist. Sadly enough, Jim Lee can do much better than he did in DCUO.

    And CO's art style doesn't look much like a comic except for the outline. It's like you can tell an artist was trying to make it look like a comic book- but he wasn't a comic artist, if that makes sense.

    Default proportions look flat-out silly, and even CO doesn't use that on anyone. It's practically why I'm flat-out begging them to let us have a contest to set a new default.

    And Jenny? Arkham games were pretty awesome, but Batman looked like garbage. It was like he was the only character that didn't have a modern look and that irked me.
  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 358 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I bet it's the way the textures are done. They are usually solid colors with a bump map for the details. The result is closer to an animated cartoon style. Either hand drawn looking textures or a special shader (similar to what was done in Valkyria Chronicles or Borderlands2?, but in a different style) could be used to get a more comic illustration feel.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited July 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    I guess you can call the Arkham Batman games failures in that context then. Oh wait, they're not. All of the characters in that game look nothing like their comic-book counterparts in the traditional comic-book visual art style sense, with the exception with Bats himself on some level, but every other aspect that we associate Batman with comic-wise, be it the dark theme or the fundamentals behind the villains he fight; those are preserved. The games are considered very successful even when they don't stick to the traditional comic-book art style.
    .

    Those games fits Batman franchise, because they have this darker vibe from Burton and Nolan films, for example. Much like DCUO - they are oriented at drawing people who may not read comic books, but are watching movies.

    Now, I do not say that game fits comic genre only when its dark and nineties. But it needs to look like something of said genre. Either like comic book, OR movie, OR mainsteram cartoon.

    CO has missed design because it really doesn't look like any incarnation of superhero genre.

    Not like I especially like this overly dark style of Arkham game, or DCUO graphic style - but it gets job done. It depicts something of superhero genre.

    Personally I do not think that CO ever needed, or needs, to look like DCUO. But it could look more like Ultimate Spiderman.

    I really can't see where CO "sticks to the fundamentals of the whole superheroes setting even when it doesn't use the traditional comic-book visual art style".
    It can't even follow Champions Universe with writing.
    As for classic comic book feel - if not Destroyer and PSI this game would not have a single typical comic book villain to fight. And many storylines from CO looks could be as well thrown into fantasy game. So much demons and magic to fight.
    Also, since I'm playing a computer game and not actually reading a comic book, I can appreciate graphics to look modern and appealing, and not stick to flat color palettes like those often seen in comic books.

    UltimateSpidermanPv.jpg

    Ultimate Spiderman. Proof that you can have good looking comic book inspired game. It has vibrant colors like CO, clean models and environment (much like CO), and the only bigger difference in graphic style is that it has more prominent comic book outlining. And it looks really nice.

    Now, if CO could have similar style, instead what it has now.

    Wait, it could!

    This scrapped werewolves & vampires project initially was using exactly the same way of doing shading like Ultimate Spiderman and Borderlands!

    More, it was appiled to default CO models and looked great. It's perfectly possible with Cryptic engine. But it was polished after CO.

    There is already part of the game which uses slightly more comic book looking shaders - vulcanic areas on Monster Island. There is tech for it.

    Which is why for me CO stylisation looks simply unfinished. Or rushed. It's another part of the game which needs to be finally polished.

    And really, starting with those nearly as bad as Liefield's default body shapes. And then bumping up comic outlining, because it's really weak and very often invisible in higher resolution.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I really can't see where CO "sticks to the fundamentals of the whole superheroes setting even when it doesn't use the traditional comic-book visual art style".

    Fighting against super-villains? Against super-villain factions? Saving the lives of innocents? Having the freedom to design your superhero taking inspiration from classic and modern comic book settings? These aren't superhero fundamentals in CO to consider?

    We could probably argue about what makes for acceptable visual styles in superhero-themed games and what doesn't until the cows come home since you're pretty dead-set in your opinion, but just for the sake of saying my piece: Strictly sticking to the visual art style of comic books isn't a priority for me, the rest of whatever makes for a superhero games does.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited July 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    Fighting against super-villains? Against super-villain factions? Saving the lives of innocents? Having the freedom to design your superhero taking inspiration from classic and modern comic book settings? These aren't superhero fundamentals in CO to consider?

    1 - Not too many villains already present in CO looks or feels like comic book villains. Closest are Destroyer and his goons, PSI or (sometimes) VIPER. Rest is simply "villains" in modern world. Supervillain is mostly their tag.
    If this game is about comic books, then it need more comic book opponents. And maybe serious costume redesign to few existing ones. At least Valerian Scarlet wear tights even if rest of her related storylines could be as well in DnD fantasy game.

    2 - Saving lives is also thing in pretty much every game where you are playing heroic character. True for fantasy games as well. From WoW to SWTOR.

    3 - And freeform building is great feature, but also doesn't makes anything specifically comic book oriented. Some people will use it for building superpowered tights wearers, but many CO charaters are fantasy demon lords and whatnot.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You don't have to wear tights to be a superhero. It's the thought and act that count.

    If someone wants to be a demon, so be it. Superhero comics aren't without their redeemed infernal types either, or at least, those that are in the process of seeking redemption.
  • pwkampfykaufmannpwkampfykaufmann Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited July 2013

    UltimateSpidermanPv.jpg

    Mee!!! I love you for reminding me of that game!

    /end OT
  • clcmercyclcmercy Posts: 308 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You can say whatever you want about DCUO. Yes, the body style in that game is hideous- but that's what you get for hiring a meathead wannabe like Jim Lee as the artist. Sadly enough, Jim Lee can do much better than he did in DCUO.

    Jim Lee -is- a decent artist. And DCUO's characters might not have the customization options that are available here....but they look a damn sight better than this cheesy sheet.
    And CO's art style doesn't look much like a comic except for the outline. It's like you can tell an artist was trying to make it look like a comic book- but he wasn't a comic artist, if that makes sense.
    Default proportions look flat-out silly, and even CO doesn't use that on anyone. It's practically why I'm flat-out begging them to let us have a contest to set a new default.


    Tell me about it. Every single female head looks like Crescent Moon Head man from Night Breed. Here. I'll show you.


    moonhead_zps75b06f82.jpg

    And Jenny? Arkham games were pretty awesome, but Batman looked like garbage. It was like he was the only character that didn't have a modern look and that irked me.


    I thought the various costumes one could choose from were actually kinda awesome. Sinsestro Corps Batman was.......yeah. Awesome.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,798 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    cybersoldier1981 has me jump into the fray:

    And CO's art style doesn't look much like a comic except for the outline.

    To be honest, the outline thing isn't from super-hero comics, either (coloring books, maybe). It's someone misunderstanding the inking and shading processes that were used. They didn't put a uniform outline on things, it was very varied and there to indicate light/shadow. Any inker would get fired if he made it look like CO does.

    Just for the record, I'm not fond of the default look at all. First of all, City of Monkey People. Secondly, what's up with the huge eyes (yeah, manga inspired by people that don't really understand manga)? Thankfully, there's enough leeway with the sliders to make them look reasonably human, but it means every NPC I come across still looks like the mutant distorted default...and about 75% of the players. Sigh.
    'Dec out

    QDSxNpT.png
  • gamakytegamakyte Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The art in this game pretty much sold me on it , beside the actual name and what that meant. Yes, It is cheesy, it's silly kiddie based, Batman cartoon ridiculous, yes the defaults look like gorillas, yes some NPCs could use a tweak.

    The same character base can be tweaked from a huge dude with massive shoulders, chest and biceps to a small dude that looks like popeye, with a very simple slider system with lots of quick hit options (head, body etc.) that anyone can get the hang of. Thats all kinda ace in my book. Ok, girls look a bit... baloony...

    I loved the graphics in FF too (Both seem to be based at 12 year olds. I liked Liefeld then, and Todd McFarlane, Larsen, many Marvel comics around 90 looked like that. Not like FF, like Liefled and Larsen), I see a lot of similarities between the two. 'Cept we can't wield poles. Keep your body tweaks and give me wield-able poles that I can ignite, excite and use as throwing bombs. :biggrin: ahh see, madness to my method
    _________________________________
  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,798 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    But why? Everyone hates Gambit!

    **ducks** :tongue:
    'Dec out

    QDSxNpT.png
  • gamakytegamakyte Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Manbot uses disruption on Decos chair :wink:
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