2 Passives at once

daisolaar · May 2013

Hang on a sec, put those rifles down. Hear me out.

Whenever I think about making a Hybrid Role toon, I almost immediately squash that idea when I remember that a solid Damage, Tank, or Support Role toon could probably do the job I had in mind better. And while lots of folks can make the Hybrid Role work for them... I dunno. I just don't think it's special enough.

So here's an idea. Make it so that, only in the Hybrid Role, you can have 2 Passive powers on at one time. Whether it be a combo of 1 Offensive & 1 Defensive, 1 Defensive & 1 Support, or whatever. The balancing trick to this is, only allow the Passive powers to be upgraded once. So you can only give them Rank 2, or whatever additional Advantage they come with.

thearkady · May 2013

Yeah... no. That'd instantly render all other roles pointless. In fact, Quarry+LR or WoW+LR would render pretty much everythinng in the game pointless, because getting Dodge/Avoidance 100/100 would be about trivial.

flamingbunnyman · May 2013

daisolaar wrote: »

The balancing trick to this is, only allow the Passive powers to be upgraded once. So you can only give them Rank 2, or whatever additional Advantage they come with.

What happens when I pick Quarry R2+Advantage for Ranged DPS Role, and Lightning Reflexes R3 for when I'm in Tank role, and then switch to Hybrid?

What about stacking similar Passives? Quarry+Advantage plus Way of the Warrior R2 or Unstoppable R2. Defiance R2 + Invulnerability R2? Superstat Con + Defiance R2 + Aura of Primal Majesty R2?

Sorry, but there's just way too many ways to abuse the heck out of multiple passives.

daisolaar · May 2013

Sheesh, it was just an idea. If anyone else wants to try and balance it, be my guest. Admittedly, I can barely balance my checkbook.

theravenforce · May 2013

Just take a moment to think of how painfully OP passive combinations could be...

Night Warrior + AoPM

AoPM + Invuln

AoPM + LR

LR + PFF <--this would be awesome but PFF would almost never drop

Defiance and AoPM

AoRP + Invuln <--couple this with IDF or defiance stack granting powers...and...wow

The list is endless...its a nice idea theory wise...but...realistically, the game balance would be thrown off even more than it already is, it would make Gravitar and practically ALL content a joke.

I think it was possible in the past for CO but it was taken away <---shaky info, not sure if this is 100% accurate..but I think it is.

theravenforce · May 2013

daisolaar wrote: »

Sheesh, it was just an idea. If anyone else wants to try and balance it, be my guest. Admittedly, I can barely balance my checkbook.

It would probably take either a serious nefing of the "secondary" passive to the point where it almost wasn't worth it or something..OR..the content difficulty ramped up so high that even a fully competant team based on Healing/Hybrid/Ranged/Melee/Tank chars would have serious difficulty and may even fail.

All in all I cannot really see this happening...ever..

musher · May 2013

Actually it is possible with a few tricks:

1) you can have Primary and Secondary passives (update ATs to have those too) both of which work normally
2) certain occasions, however, disable either a Primary or a Secondary. Like being in PvP zones, or Gravitar can fire special anti-passive blasts, etc.
3) this wouldn't hurt neither normal PvE content (by the time you get your second passive it's already hardly a challenge) nor PvP or other cases where you want to challenge players.

rokurocaris · May 2013

musher wrote: »

Actually it is possible with a few tricks:

1) you can have Primary and Secondary passives (update ATs to have those too) both of which work normally
2) certain occasions, however, disable either a Primary or a Secondary. Like being in PvP zones, or Gravitar can fire special anti-passive blasts, etc.
3) this wouldn't hurt neither normal PvE content (by the time you get your second passive it's already hardly a challenge) nor PvP or other cases where you want to challenge players.

Being complicated again. We already have secondary passives. They are called Forms.

I don't think two slotted passives would be a good thing though. It works in Neverwinter, but the passives over there are very weak by comparison.

pallihwtf · May 2013

Maybe I should've made my own thread for this.. but this seemed like the proper place!

Custom Passive!!! Take your own pick!

Choose your preference:

Offensive Passive
Defensive Passive
Support Passive

Offensive passive! Very good.

Pick your bonuses for your personal passive (3 max)

Offensive Passive:
- Great Damage increase for one damage type*
- Moderate increase for multiple damage types (3(2?) damage types max)
- Moderate Dodge/avoidance buff**
- Moderate Defense buff
- Faster charge time for your offensive powers
- Increased Offense

Great! Name your passive!

Awsum Supacharge

Pick your Effect! *darkness, fire, ice, auras, etc.*

Your Passive summary:
Awsum Supacharge
- Great damage increase (Crushing)
- Moderate dodge/avoidance buff
- Increased offense
With Fire aura

*Can't be picked the same time with Moderate damage increase and vice-versa. You choose your damage type after you've picked this option
**Can't be picked with Moderate defense buff and vice-cersa

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

beldin · May 2013

daisolaar wrote: »

So here's an idea. Make it so that, only in the Hybrid Role, you can have 2 Passive powers on at one time.

So what reason would anyone have after that to use any other role than Hybrid ?

rugrothrumbor · May 2013

Hybrid: 35% loss for offense, defense (only if you slot two passives). Offense/Offense, Defense/Defense, Offense/Defense, Offense/Support, Defense/Support, Support/Support
Brawler: 25% loss on offense passive, 40% loss on defense passive (only if you slot two passives). Offense/Offense, Offense/Defense
Avenger: 25% loss on offense passive, 50% loss on defense passive (only if you slot two passives). Offense/Offense, Offense/Defense
Protector: 25% loss on defense passive, 50% loss on offense passive (only if you slot two passives). Offense/Defense, Defense/Defense
Sentinel: 25% loss on support passive, 50% loss on offense or defense passive (only if you slot two passives). Offense/Support, Defense/Support, Support/Support

Or something like that.

musher · May 2013

Objection! Brawler and Avenger can use ONLY offense passives, Tank is limited to defensive, and Support may only use support.
Instead, let them make forms fully passive, occupying a special slot near the slotted passive instead of a slot of my action tray I can find much better use for.

rugrothrumbor · May 2013

The point of two slotted passives is to match up with concepts and add new playstyles.

Unstoppable + Defiance: Unbreakable berserker
PFF + Invulnerability: Forcefield using power armor user.
Defiance + Regeneration: Really tough brick type
Targeting Computer + Invulnerability: Heavily armed power armor
Targeting Computer + Aura of Primal Majesty: Military leader
Seraphim Form + Fiery Form: Healer and a holy fire user.

The possibilities are endless.

You can also have a reason to take powers that don't fit the passive you're using. Like taking Fiery Form and Electricity Form allowing you to get an increase in damage for Elemental AND Energy damage types and take powers associated with those.

Fiery Form + Unstoppable: Fire brute
Fiery Form + Electricity: Energy and Elemental user
Way of the Warrior + Shadow Form: Demon Knight or Mage Knight
Fiery Form + Way of the Warrior: Fire wielding martial artist
Targeting Computer + Electric Form: Electric power using Power Armor

If two passives is done, I'm sure this game would be more exciting. Yes it's not new content but it's a really new cool feature for the people that like to come up with new concepts.

musher · May 2013

It all sounds nice in theory, but merely a concept is not enough reason to make passives universal (otherwise any role other than hybrid will become useless), give PvP gods even more power and shove archetypes even further down the food chain at the same time. I think ATs are weak enough, really no need to nerf them even more.

rugrothrumbor · May 2013

Well freeform was the only way the game was played originally. And what's stopping ATs from getting the same feature with secondary passives of their own?

musher · May 2013

For the sake of discussion, let's assume freeforms and ATs would both increase in power by 20%. Problem is, for a freeform each perecent would be 10 units, while for ATs each percent is 1 unit. They would get a little boost, but they would still fall even further behind freeforms, and then you need to make harder content to provide a challenge for the newly powered freeforms, making ATs suffer a plain impossible challenge in some cases. Show me a freeform that can last a fight with a legendary/cosmic without dying? You can just randomly point your finger and you will probably be right. Show me an AT that can actually contribute AND stay alive at the same time? Go find a needle in a haystack.

gamehobo · May 2013

Is one of those passives Congress of Selves?

No?

Shut it down.

#TelepathyNOW

wesleytansg · May 2013

There does not seem a need for 2 passives at once. The content is already trivial. Having two passives just makes them more trivial.

bioshrike · May 2013

A more feasible idea would be to make new passives that have properties from 2 other passives. For instance, Might has Unstoppable, which has some damage absorption, (like Invuln), and also increases damage.

However, combining 2 defensive passives might be a bit too good - if you had invuln + regen, even if they just operated at like 50% of normal, it'd still be too good.

flamingbunnyman · May 2013

It wouldn't even need to be new passives, just new effects added to existing ones. Passives that are considered weak could get the new effect baked in, while ones that don't need a buff could have the bonus added as an Advantage, like the heal on Quarry.

gamehobo · May 2013

This is such a fundamental change to the combat system that the amount of work it would take is really not useful.

If you want to make a fire character who is also a tank.. find a tank passive and use fire powers.

The system is designed for you to create the character you want WITHOUT needing two passives

rokurocaris · May 2013

gamehobo wrote: »

The system is designed for you to create the character you want WITHOUT needing two passives

There are, however, still power combinations left unsupported, because there are no passive powers to cover them.

Quarry and Night Warrior support all kinds of builds that use mainly Physical damage and Dodge defense.
Kinetic Manipulation works with Munitions, Earth and Wind just as good as with Force.
Ego Form allows you to combine Paranormal with Physical powers (although it's stronly focused on Mentalist powers for the first part).
Stormbringer allows you to play a Brick or Matrial Artist with additional Ice and/or Electricity powers if you want.

But how about demomen or heroes with vulcanic powers, that use Fire and Physical damage? About Power-Armored heroes that want to have their damage and defense buffed, to be neither be an Invulnerable tank nor a glass cannon with a Targeting Computer? And about Energy projector or raygunslinger concepts that don't want an Electric aura?

I don't think using two passives is the solution for that though. What we need is more, and more versatile passives.

gamehobo · May 2013

rokurocaris wrote: »

I don't think using two passives is the solution for that though. What we need is more, and more versatile passives.

No argument from me here.

thearkady · May 2013

I'm not sure the problem is the passives, really. The problem is the Hybrid role, which right now is a collective dump for anything that can't use any of the others meaningfully, a bit of a "what, you actually want to be the hero you want to be? Fine, but you pay for such insolence by sucking" role.

They need to split Hybrid into several different roles. At the very least, we need meaningful ones for people trying to combine ranged and melee damage in a build (and archetypes like the Specialist), for thiose doing ranged/support and those doing melee/support (well, in theory, someone might want to, never seen it tried tbh).

flamingbunnyman · May 2013

thearkady wrote: »

I'm not sure the problem is the passives, really. The problem is the Hybrid role, which right now is a collective dump for anything that can't use any of the others meaningfully, a bit of a "what, you actually want to be the hero you want to be? Fine, but you pay for such insolence by sucking" role.

Since when do Hybrids suck? Some of my strongest characters are Hybrids, and my absolute strongest swaps between Ranged and Hybrid regularly, depending on what he's fighting. That's the "right" way to do two passives, at least the way the game is now.

They need to split Hybrid into several different roles. At the very least, we need meaningful ones for people trying to combine ranged and melee damage in a build (and archetypes like the Specialist), for thiose doing ranged/support and those doing melee/support (well, in theory, someone might want to, never seen it tried tbh).

I have a Single Blade/Dual Pistols character that's loosely based off the Specialist. Quarry is amazing for him: damage buff to both weapons, a weak version of Lightning Reflexes, an Ego buff, so I don't have to stat for both Str and Ego, and a pseudo-Regeneration. Sadly, this doesn't work as well for those using non-physical damage.
I haven't experimented much, but there's probably other passives that work well for Hybrids trying to combine roles. The various Auras come to mind.

selphea · May 2013

rokurocaris wrote: »

But how about demomen or heroes with vulcanic powers, that use Fire and Physical damage? About Power-Armored heroes that want to have their damage and defense buffed, to be neither be an Invulnerable tank nor a glass cannon with a Targeting Computer? And about Energy projector or raygunslinger concepts that don't want an Electric aura?

AoPM?

wesleytansg · May 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

Since when do Hybrids suck? Some of my strongest characters are Hybrids, and my absolute strongest swaps between Ranged and Hybrid regularly, depending on what he's fighting. That's the "right" way to do two passives, at least the way the game is now.

I have a Single Blade/Dual Pistols character that's loosely based off the Specialist. Quarry is amazing for him: damage buff to both weapons, a weak version of Lightning Reflexes, an Ego buff, so I don't have to stat for both Str and Ego, and a pseudo-Regeneration. Sadly, this doesn't work as well for those using non-physical damage.
I haven't experimented much, but there's probably other passives that work well for Hybrids trying to combine roles. The various Auras come to mind.

I run Paragon almost entirely on hybrid and I use it with Invulnerability. The larger energy pool allows me to spam BCR, conviction, unleashed rage and gas pellets while my MSA restores my energy.

sagewithbubbles · May 2013

thearkady wrote: »

I'm not sure the problem is the passives, really. The problem is the Hybrid role, which right now is a collective dump for anything that can't use any of the others meaningfully, a bit of a "what, you actually want to be the hero you want to be? Fine, but you pay for such insolence by sucking" role.

They need to split Hybrid into several different roles. At the very least, we need meaningful ones for people trying to combine ranged and melee damage in a build (and archetypes like the Specialist), for thiose doing ranged/support and those doing melee/support (well, in theory, someone might want to, never seen it tried tbh).

Hybrid role's a lot better than the old Guardian role.

It's better at using melee than the Ranged Damage role and better at using ranged damage than the Melee Damage role due to the increased secondary superstat scaling to damage.

It loses the multiplicative bonus to a specific damage type of course, but the greatly increased healing (since it buffs it with superstats) makes you far more durable. That's before being able to equip defensive or support passives.

Hybrid does less damage in the specialist's area of expertise than a highly-specialized melee/ranged character, but makes up for it in all other areas except aggro reduction. It's a far better deal than old Guardian.

The "support" side of "ranged/support" is far more expensive to a build than the "ranged" side, so Hybrid's all-round usefulness and Support's energy management both work fine there. It's possible to build around Support's lack of damage bonus.

As for a role to support both ranged/melee equally in a damage-dealing role (so no healing bonus like in Hybrid and only offensive passives), how would you do it?

All the proposals I've seen for this since the role revamp (and before, in discussion) either end up making something overpowered or so bad that no one would actually use it for a Hybrid (like the old, old Avenger role before the Avenger/Brawler split).

Or they ignore that melee is inherently at a disadvantage in a game like CO, and that no one in their right mind who builds for mechanical reasons would build a melee-only character if given the option of a role that buffs both range and melee equally with no other penalties.

Thoughts?

smoochan · May 2013

Any offensive passive + Defiance ( which no one ranks up anyway ) is the elephant in the room on this one.

The basic premise here isn't a bad one, just that the offered implementation would have a lot of problems that would end up creating horendous balance issues. The way to do this isn't to allow hybrid to take 2 passives. Rather, the solution to what you want is actually something that is already in the game: hybrid passives.

They exist! The most well known ones are Quarry and Way of the Warrior. They're passives that give offensive bonuses, along with defensive bonuses. Sure, nearly all offensive passives give some sort of defensive benefit, but for the most part the defensive benefit they give is so situational and underpowered that it might as well not exist at all. In the case of Quarry and WotW, they give defensive bonuses that matter, i.e. dodge, and give them so good that you can tank while using these passives.

Even Defiance is almost a hybrid passive, since the massive energy gain definitely fuels your offensive abilities. Invulnerability and Lightning Reflexes by comparison are completely defensive in nature, and offer no offensive benefit.

And then of course we have the king of the hybrid passives... Aura of Primal Magesty. Gives offensive benefits as well as defensive benefits, and does so in a variety of ways.

Time has shown that these "hybrid passives" are the most popular. Part of this is no doubt because the game has changed in such a way that specializing is no longer as beneficial as it used to be. The other reason is that heroes are rarely as one dimensional as the tank/healer/dps system requires.

So... no to the 2 passives thing. Yes to the idea that there should be more options for characters who don't just want to be either a dps or a tank, and yes to the solution being either (a) new passives that offer both offensive and defensive benefits, and/or (b) modifying the current passives so that they all offer both something defensive and something offensive.

ashensnow · May 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

Sadly, this doesn't work as well for those using non-physical damage.

Its not as bad as one might think. In the post On Alert game it is so easy to stack +Offense, and of course a damage toggle, that Quarry's additive damage bonus pushes sufficiently far into diminishing returns that the difference for physical and non physical damage is not all that big of a deal.

daisolaar · May 2013

Thank you to Rokurocaris, Rugrothrumbor, & Smoochan for wording what I had in mind in a more understandable fashion. And thank you to everyone else talking about this, rather than letting it become yet another of the hundreds of practically ignored suggestions. Go team~

joltrabbit · May 2013

Perhaps we need better Hybrid-centric passives, but if you allowed multiple passives simply reduce their effectiveness.

1 passive = 100 percent of it's numbers and 2 passives = 50 to 62.5 percent of its intended numbers.

Bio mentioned this but I'd say that once you have an offensive passive you're locked out of other offensive passives, etc. You can't have more than one type of passive (support, offensive, defense).

Would you pay Zen for the ability to rock a Hybrid form with 40 percent effective Invin, Stormbringer and AoPM all on at the same time?

shiningdarkness · May 2013

PVP is already unbalanced and you wanna completely destroy it?

2 Passives at once

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