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Hi Pan Alert - why is a random party wipe mechanic good?
thearkady
Posts: 337 Arc User
Okay, since I found out just how big the Hi Pan alert cheerleader camp is by way of finally seeing Craptic's intelligent chat ban system at work, let's see.
The yin-yang circle in the Hi Pan alert is a random party wipe mechanic. (If the wrong dot appears in the wrong place, it's basically an insta-kill for characters that actually try to be individual builds as opposed to carbon copies of the same overpowered builds.)
Obviously, a lot of cheerleaders think that's a good thing. Please explain intelligently, which means not using the term "added challenge" (it obviously adds nothing of the sort for carbon copies of the right unkillable builds, and is a random party wipe otherwise).
Also, if this alert is so well-design, why does it seem that in most PUGs, nobdy even knows about the bell mechanic? What's the big hint indicating this mechanic even exists that everyone seems to overlook?
On the up side, if all of CO looked half as good as the scenery in that alert, maybe there'd be more players, so kudos to the creator for that.
The yin-yang circle in the Hi Pan alert is a random party wipe mechanic. (If the wrong dot appears in the wrong place, it's basically an insta-kill for characters that actually try to be individual builds as opposed to carbon copies of the same overpowered builds.)
Obviously, a lot of cheerleaders think that's a good thing. Please explain intelligently, which means not using the term "added challenge" (it obviously adds nothing of the sort for carbon copies of the right unkillable builds, and is a random party wipe otherwise).
Also, if this alert is so well-design, why does it seem that in most PUGs, nobdy even knows about the bell mechanic? What's the big hint indicating this mechanic even exists that everyone seems to overlook?
On the up side, if all of CO looked half as good as the scenery in that alert, maybe there'd be more players, so kudos to the creator for that.
Post edited by thearkady on
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If you understand how the symbol works, I understand that it can buff you, as well as killing you. I've never figured out how, but so I've been told.
I also have some melee characters who don't have the luxury of staying out of the circle. I've yet to be "insta-killed" by the circle, so I just watch my hit points, and use my self heals. If I'm taking too much damage to offset with healing, I GTFO of the circle, and finish healing up, them move back in.
"Nobody knows about this mechanic"? I'm pretty sure that "An enemy put a target on the ground, get out of it or die" is a standard of most, if not all, MMOs.
If you're running into PUGs that can't figure out "get out of the fire, or you'll get burned", then I'm very sorry for your bad luck.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Okay, I take it you don't actually know the bell mechanic then, either?
When using a ranged character, which is what I usually take into that Alert, it's generally easier to just move than to try ringing the bell.
But how exactly does that relate to the yin-yang, which seemed to be your issue?
Also, I strongly suspect that your chat ban stemmed from your apparent habit of talking down to and insulting people who don't agree with you. Reasonable conversation and debate doesn't open with a wide-sweeping insult, segue into hyperbole, and then dismiss differing opinions before they even have a chance to be voiced.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
There's two issues with the alert. The bell mechanic, which some people seem to think is brilliant, is the second. What's so brilliant about a mechanic so many people don't even seem to figure out (or take forever to notice) because there's no actual hint it's there?
Really? Okay.
"I love the yin-yang insta-kill mechanic."
That's the statement that preceded the chat-ban and which leads me to assume there's a cheerleader squad that couldn't be arsed to even try and explain why the circle is, in their eyes, a good mechanic.
That's where you clearly differ from them, but then again, that's no surprise following the forums.
What I'd like to know is: have you done the Hi Pan alert on a character without at least secondary SS CON? It's those that seem impossibly to maneuver out of the circle of doom befor 2-3 ticks kill them. Which is what really irks me, because a mechanic that railroads even more towards SS CON is the last thing CO actually needs.
Then I took my blade in, and boy. I felt bad for all of those pathetic freeforms and all of their healing powers. Why... I even took a little damage!
RIP Caine
I did the Hi Pan alert, successfully, on a Blade AT, during the first weekend I was playing the game. I was probably about level 20 at the time. I suspect that I was carried by far more skilled characters, though I wouldn't have known the difference at the time.
My namesake character is Dex/Rec/End, and I've done it twice today, successfully both times. I admit that I DO have about 80 Con from gear and Talents.
The Dragon circle is up for quite some time before it deals any damage; getting out of it is no problem if you're watching your feet. The yin-yang starts affecting you the instant you're in it, but the effect is quite small - it's only when it's built up stacks that it's a problem.
For me, the solution is simply to stay spread out and keep moving. Both powers appear centered on one character. I have no idea how it chooses the target, but if you aren't close to anyone when it spawns, you don't even need to worry about it. If it does spawn on you, you've usually got time to get out if you move right away. And the dragon breath doesn't even need to be avoided; blocking reduces it to trivial damage. Again, this assumes that you're playing at range. It IS undeniably more irksome for melee characters.
And if you've got a reverse lunge, getting out of those patches instantly is pure simplicity.
The statement immediately preceding the chat ban likely has little to do with it. It takes several /ignores to silence someone, so it's unlikely that he (alone) silenced you. If the claim that one person can silence you is true, it's unlikely that it can be done that quickly.
I wasn't logged in when the conversation happened. Altaholism is a cruel mistress, and I've spent most of the morning in the character creator. So, I can't say if you were being as hostile in-game as you came across with your original post.
The circles are a good mechanic because they encourage active play, rather than the trite and boring "tank 'n spank" method. It would be undoubtedly better if the mechanic was explained, rather than forcing people to learn on the fly - for example, the chick at the beginning should make a quick mention of the dragon being afraid of the bell.
Out of curiosity: Do you have as much issue with the flame patches during the boss fight in the Harmon Labs alert?
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Scourge? Blade? ATs are cookie-cutter builds if I've ever seen one!
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I read every line of text in the alert. Apologies to my teammates if you thought I was AFK for the first minute or so. Nowhere does it say anything about either effect, or how to avoid them. That should be rectified.
I stood in the patch for a bit, and I was able to build up both Positive and Negative Chi, at different times, by standing in the main body of the yin-yang symbol. Neither did anything to me. On one of my tests, I got clipped by an "eye", and dropped dead in a single shot on a character with Con superstat and almost 9000 hp. While running back, I had to cut through the symbol, as it was sitting on the bridge. On my way through, I got clipped by an eye. At the time, I had two stacks of Chi, and took about 500 points of damage from each; about 1000 points of damage from running all the way across the circle. Getting out of the circle from any point inside should be completely safe - If you move immediately.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
This is interesting, because for me it tends to be like 2-4 ticks, wham, dead (well, unless I have a char with CON). Maybe there's a bug hiding somewhere and the yin-yang circle not actually working as intended for me? (I did notice healing ticks are a lot lower than damage ones for me (by afactor 4 or so), maybe that's not how it should be, either?)
Considering I didn't actually say anything else today, it should have everything to do with it. (Because if not, the chat ban system is even more idiotic and random than people already assume.)
I would agree on principle, if the ticks from the yin-yang weren't so ridiculously high (but apparently, that's just for me?) or if there were advance warning to where it appears (so staying alive would actually depend more on paying attention than sheer luck, kind of like the dragon bursts).
Of course not. They don't just magically appear right under your feet without warning like the yin-yang of doom, which really helps.
They don't? I've never noticed a warning before they appear, and they often kill me much quicker than the yin-yang does. And dying in Harmon Labs is FAR worse than dying in Hi Pan. Stupid force field.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Recolored extra Neverwinter scenery
Please see link.
It is quite easy to kill Hi-Pan in under a minute.
2. as soon as you see a flame patch marker, start blocking , the longer you've been blokcing the less damage you take
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Sarcasm
RIP Caine
The Hi-Pan alert is no different. Experienced players should inform first-timers about the mechanics of the alert. The yin-yang circle can be easily avoided. Just block and move out of the way. The bell should be rung by either a ranged support or ranged dps. Also, cramming together in one place (especially near the bell) is an easy way for your party to be wiped out. Don't lure Hi-Pan near the bell because it'll be hard to ring it when he casts the yin-yang circle.
Personally, I like the Hi-Pan alert more that GRAB, Harmon Labs, and Red Winter because it is the easiest and most rewarding. Harmon Labs is okay too, but the place is quite crammed.
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If you're dying a lot then I quite honestly think you're not doing it right. Study up on any of the numerous guides and try again. The bottom line is when the symbol appears, you need to be getting out of the way.
Because seriously, if you can't overcome the challenge of moving about 5ft. in any direction i have bad news for you...
Especially if you somehow manage to have 5 ******n people all standing in the 2ft. wide circle that hurts you...
Snark never dies.
Having mostly observed over a couple of runs the last few days, I'd say the basic idea (make silly just pound him melee problematic) is decent, but the actual mechanic is flawed (it'd absolutely have to be a percentage health mechanic to actually affect power builds allegedly looking for a challenge, rather than just wipe inexperienced/squishy melee) and may be bugged (I don't think it's actually meant to kill in 2-3 ticks unless you built up a lot of stacks first).
And yes, the thing can be a random party wipe if the group happens to be all squishy melee. I can't help it, I don't like a mechanic that serves to further railroad freeforms into CON SS and expose just how bad some ATs are.
My preferred playstyle involves glass cannon DPS builds that are anything but, "unkillable." All of my builds are my own, developed very closely to concept (in many cases based on Pen and Paper RPG characters). In a couple of cases this has involved playing ATs.
I am also not a cheerleader for Cryptic. I consider Cryptic, as a company, to have fumbled horribly with my favorite IP (the Champions Universe) and my favorite genre (comic book style superheroes)
And yet I do not encounter the same issues you describe.
I do not consider seeing a known threat coming with time to avoid it to be, "random," or, "instakill."
I generally have no problem avoiding the dot of death, or getting out before it can kill me.
Every single time I have done this alert someone, or multiple someones, has rung the bell. You, apparently, know about the bell and yet, "everyone," in the alerts you play, "overlook(s)," it. Perhaps the other people in the alerts with you are waiting for someone else to ring the bell, as you seem to be.
Ultimately I believe that game mechanics that encourage situational awareness, mobility, and quick reaction to changing circumstances to be a good thing.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The area which stacks positive and negative chi is also not accurate so you need to actually familiarize yourself with where to tread. I used to have difficulty getting my positive stacks fast as well. Observe some of the vets do it. Watch where how they move and where they stand. It is now quite easy to get 30 positive stacks for maximum damage bonus without getting a single stack of negative chi. Do not get caught up in the heat of the fight. Rather try to find someone whom you can ask how they achieve it. Request to team the person and watch what they do.
Range toons have no problem as long as you are not rooted by your powers. I have a less tanky toon which I use lifedrain and I can stay out of range of the yinyang symbol moving and kiting Hi-Pan until he is dead. The centre of the symbol is also neutral ground and safe for standing. However, if you are melee and you do not have aggro, my suggestion is to let your tank (hopefully melee) get Hi-Pan to a good spot and then you move in to attack without stacking negative chi. Of course, this may get complicated by less experienced players who spams crippling challenge at Hi-Pan drawing him away from where you want him.
There is a reason why no one actually rings the bell. The dragon is hardly a threat in this fight. As long as you have a proper self-heal, you will realise the dragon is not much of an issue.
I've been killed by Hi Pan, and a couple of times by the dragonfire (and on three occasions, by minions who'd been knocked off the bridges and subsequently ignored - they climb back up after a while, and if you use your Force power to knock the entire group off, that means I fight the entire group while running back), but since learning that part of that spinning symbol can hurt me, I haven't stood in it long enough to die. I really don't see what the issue is.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I'm now 100% positive the reason I hate the alert is that it's completely bugged out for me. I cannot get positive chi to stack (though getting negative is trivial), and of the bad dot appears under me it consistently one-shots me before I can even move.
Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to affect most people, so my hopes of seeing what others describe as the most fun alert getting fixed so I might find it fun, too, are pretty much non-existant. I mean, Cryptic doesn't even like to fix bugs that affect everyone, like, say, Biselle never getting on with his speech.
Hmm, so once again I have to ask if you read the thread I linked. As pointed out the positive stacking sweet spot is not at the white dot. Rather it is slightly ahead of the white dot in the black area of the yinyang symbol. This applies for all subsequent symbols after the first only. The first time the symbol appears, this is even ahead going into the white region of the symbol ahead of the black area which is ahead of the white dot where "ahead" assumes you are running in the direction of the revolving.
If you want to consider it as bugging out then yes because the positive stacking does not take place on the dot. Try running around in the white dot and you likely end up with no positive stacks, dumb yes I know. Also if you find yourself unable to keep up with the spinning, which is quite common, you can take the shortcut by cutting across the centre of the symbol to keep ahead of the white dot. As pointed out, it is the safe zone and you do not take any damage there.
I can't help but mess with the dots most of the time, even though I rarely get it to work. It's usually too dull to just leave them alone. Inconsistent latency makes using them a bit harder, too. Sometimes I get about a full second delay.
what part of "I cannot get positive chi to stack" is so hard to understand? But here, let me spell it out for you:
"I cannot get positive chi to stack, no matter where I dance around in the damn circle, and I so wish you were affected by this bug too, because unlike those people who allowed for the possibility I actually tried, you so totally have it coming."
I most certainly would like to try playing with your account because you are the first person I have come across in forum or in game who have this "bug". If you can trust me enough to let me try your account and then you can change your password, I can help you verify if the issue is account related or game related. If it truly is a bug, then mostly likely it has to do with your installation and a full re-install may solve your problem.
Such lag would be nearly unnoticeable in normal play, but enough to cripple his ability to stay in the right spot. Just like the lag that makes the race event impossible to complete for some people.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
You're totally right and completely wrong at the same time.
WRONG: The other day, I was dancing around the ****in' yin-yang thing to see if it works and while the bad effect worked just fine and exactly where it should, I couldn't get positivie chi to stack at all, anywhere, anyhow. Thre's definitely a bug somewhere.
I'd like to see more players actually seeing this, as I know Cryptic isn't going to lift a finger over one report, or even 100. After all, going by their track record, the only way they could be arsed to look into it is if the bug affected almost everyone.
RIGHT: The yin-yang circle is definitely heavily affected by latency. I found that out today when it one-shotted me while I wasn't even in the area at all, having moved from the edge the moment it appeared. That was about a minute or so before the mass logout.
Given that CO is already a game extremely bad at dealing with latency (on a "if I get Server Not Responding disconnects here every minute or so, I can usually still play things like AoC or ME3 multi-player just fine" level), I'd say any mechanic that's extra-susceptible to latency is a poor design decision, no matter how nice the idea seems in principle.
For what it's worth, playing through the alert a day or so ago, I ended up with 3 stacks of both positive (black icon, if I remember correctly) and negative (white icon) chi.
Most of the time if the yin-yang spawns on top of me, I just move in and hold center position, because latency and lag tend to get me one-shotted if I try to LEAVE the circle. It was just by chance that I had any chi stacks at all.
@brainstem
Well think about it this way: Would a villain give a hero hints on how to win in a battle? Figuring it out is part of the challenge.
Anyway, I've always managed to build white stacks while doing a circular run within the Yin-Yang so that I stay in the white area as much as I can. Granted, it's impossible to do so without getting some black stacks as well, but as long as you get enough whites to counter the black, you'll be okay.
Another melee tactic is to try to lure Hi Pan towards the edge of the Yin-Yang so that you can engage him while staying just outside the edge. Kiting him with a melee energy builder at range should do the trick.
My damage output is doubled when I get the max of 30 stacks of the buff. That is pretty nice when tapping shuriken throw or throw fire does 1200 dmg. They spam quite nicely.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Congrats, unfortunately, this does not seem to work for the OP for whatever reasons.
Depends, I tank Hi-Pan most of the time but I like to kite him to a wall where I can use my gas pellets on him. Also if the tank starts to stack negative chi it is possible to die.
It was tempting to just stand under the bell instead of fight.
For Gas Pellets, there is a corner by the bridge that might work well too.
... unless he's not actually a tank. There's so few good tanks left in CO apparently that I for one keep constantly getting forced to "tank" in hybrid off-tanks that will get one-shotted by the broken yin-yang if they don't move.
It might not be a problem if positive chi stacks actually worked and I could use the damn symbol to heal as well as for suiciding, but until the mechanic gets fixed, I'll have to kite every damn time.
Do not bother with the positive stacks to heal you. The healing rate is nowhere that of the damage stacking of the negative stacks. The positive stacks are purely for damage increase. If I am not wrong the healing does not stack. Tanks with good self heals can possibly bear up to about 20 negative stacks at most and the damage ignores dodge. Squishy will die by 5 stacks and it is very possible to get 5 stacks in 1 pass which is why you seem to be one shotted. However offer still stands I can hep to test if there is a bug with your account or lag.
He held aggro really well with Mini-Gun, didn't take much damage, and had Invulnerability. I'm pretty sure it was a real tank build. Maybe an Invincible AT.
Its not really far removed from the statues from the Therakal(sp?) lair that changes a buff that does something to you.