Offensive Passives are Offensive

pwestolemyname · May 2013

So, I've been working on some new builds lately, leveling up, and one thing I have noticed is that the Offensive Passives do not seem to be as good as the Defensive Passives.

I generally build with an offensive toggle (Concentrate, Enrage, etc) and primary superstat for damage (Str, Ego, etc). But, whether I am playing ranged or melee, it seems like the OP's are just not up to the task. What I mean by that is that they do not seem to make up in damage what they lose in survivability. I especially notice this in melee. At least with the ranged OP's, you can try to stay out of the way.

So, what I have been doing with the ones I started with OPs is just retconning them into the same build, but with a DP. It loses a little bit of damage, but still does plenty to kill stuff fast enough, and it stands up to punishment way way better.

I think part of the issue is that the mobs go down so fast, anyway, that the additional damage provided by an OP is not really necessary.

Does anyone else have this problem or have you noticed this, as well? Or is it just me making build mistakes?

soryu1983 · May 2013

As far as melee is concerned, I agree. OP's could be a tad bit more beefy. As for ranged, can't say, never played ranged :P

theravenforce · May 2013

pwestolemyname wrote: »

So, I've been working on some new builds lately, leveling up, and one thing I have noticed is that the Offensive Passives do not seem to be as good as the Defensive Passives.

I generally build with an offensive toggle (Concentrate, Enrage, etc) and primary superstat for damage (Str, Ego, etc). But, whether I am playing ranged or melee, it seems like the OP's are just not up to the task. What I mean by that is that they do not seem to make up in damage what they lose in survivability. I especially notice this in melee. At least with the ranged OP's, you can try to stay out of the way.

So, what I have been doing with the ones I started with OPs is just retconning them into the same build, but with a DP. It loses a little bit of damage, but still does plenty to kill stuff fast enough, and it stands up to punishment way way better.

I think part of the issue is that the mobs go down so fast, anyway, that the additional damage provided by an OP is not really necessary.

Does anyone else have this problem or have you noticed this, as well? Or is it just me making build mistakes?

I think it might purely be down to play style and build choices. I'm not saying I have no difficulties with Offensive Passives but I find that with a build..in some ways you have to build around the passive, i.e. no point taking 2GM if you have electric form etc.

Builds of mine which are level 40 and relatively successful (they survive and do damage well):

- BioWasp - Particle Damage build using Electric Form
- Bionic Bullet - Dual Pistols build uses Quarry
- ShadowAssassin - Boomerang Build uses Night Warrior
- PsychBlade - Ranged Telekinetics uses Ego Form

Defensive Passives as a whole tend to be much more reliable, I use them if they are in theme (massive theme builder here

) OR if I am unsure of a build.

Personal Force Field - To make this work you have a number of options..focus on dodge/avoidance, IDF, Blocking with Force Shield and Force Sheath, anything for defense and dodge really. (Still feels like a defend-your-passive, style DP but it works alot better than it used to)

Defiance - Only really messed around with this passive as a behemoth and as a Mountain AT. So cant really say other than its good

Regen - Reliable but again needs a PFF style assistance sometimes, but has better utility in some instances (IMO)

Lightning Reflexes - Still a good passive and holds its own with its great DoT reduction, even in the face of dodge/avoidance gear

Invulnerablity - Probably the best DP out there, reliable and works well.

I think because you are used to using DP's perhaps your strategy with OP's hasnt changed? Personally, with DP, I tend to just rush in and slug it out, with Offensives..I pick the highest ranked target and take them out, block alot and rely on my damage being enough.

Offensive Passives are ok, BUT, the elemental ones need some sorting out IMO. On the tips section...it says Fiery Form will allow you to absorb fire damage without being harmed...I expected something like 1's but no...it gives "resistance" which is pretty silly IMO, should be near immunity (with regards NPC's fire damage) and resistance for players.

I reckon also Electric form should have some sort of sparks effect to targets closeby similar to Ice Forms freezing and Fiery Forms flames.

Anyway, yeah...they could use some help, but with the specs and stats out there...too much help could breed a new type of monster...

bioshrike · May 2013

In groups, and due to how aggro works in this game, the extra damage an offensive passive gives you seems to be just enough to exceed the aggro a tankish character generates, while not providing enough extra damage or durability to allow you to handle the extra attention from the boss.

IMO, all offensive passives should grant a bonus power, (similar to how Night Warrior grants stealth and shadow strike), which basically completely wipes you of aggro and makes the boss forget you were there, for like 10 seconds. Then, at least, they'd have a mechanism to allow you to get those few extra seconds you need to reposition and heal.

selphea · May 2013

There are a few notable ones.

Quarry. AoPM on 2 stats, 18% Dodge not subject to diminishing returns and boosts all damage types. You can hit 100% Dodge indefinitely with fairly cheap gear using Quarry. The low % on non-physical doesn't really matter, being able to run in a damage role for the multiplicative boost is where most of the damage comes from.
Way of the Warrior. Kind of like a watered down Quarry. Can hit 100% dodge but requires expensive gear and doesn't have AoPM
Shadow Form. Good for perma-stealth builds. Mega-D Terminator certified!
Ice Form. Gives you Cold Snap when you crit. That's priceless for an Ice Blast build. Potential >4000DPS on a single target from 100ft without devices, more at point blank with Gas Pellets. Probably the only offensive passive that boosts offense enough to be offensive.
Stormbringer. Bosses seem to use a lot of lightning or crushing attacks, e.g. Hyrg Coruscator, Gravitar, Harbinger. Stormbringer happens to give near-Invulnerability level defenses against those. Also buffs Lightning Arc, one of the strongest 100ft single target attacks in the game.
Pestilence. Semi-popular PvP passive. Stacks DoTs very fast, cuts through defenses and reduces enemy healing by a lot.
Night Warrior. PvP passive for obvious reasons.

But funny thing is, the passive that gives you the highest DPS in the game is not an offensive passive, but a support passive. Go figure.

monsterdaddy · May 2013

This is an interesting opinion on Offensive Passives. I don't think there is a way to measure if the added damage outweighs the loss of survivability, it can only be a player's opinion.

However, I think if you play and tweak builds long enough you may find that you can survive and tank any encounter with any OP. (i.e. soloing Gravitar w/Quarry, Stormbringer) In addition, you can also find ways to boost your damage levels to very high levels.

On the damage side, multiplicative damage bonuses are rare. So the 25% boost from Ranged or Melee roles you can use with an OP is probably the biggest reason to use an OP.

It may not seem like much but add on damage resistance debuffs like Firesnake, Invocation of Storm Calling, Chest Beam, Minigun, Shred w/Adv, Demolish, etc. and/or from the Spec trees, using a Depleted Uranium Core -- you can really go to crazy levels.

And one interesting thought to consider too, is defeating an enemy faster = survivability? I'll say in the case of Gravitar's last lifebar, which is where the infamous yellow bubbles come in, that the answer is yes. Knocking Gravitar out in less than 2 minutes = max of 3 yellow bubbles you may face = survivability.

pwestolemyname · May 2013

Thanks for the feedback. I have had some really good success with a Quarry/Force build, but she drops mobs with a single shot at 100', so it's a little different.

So, what do you all think about taking an Offensive Passive and then a defensive toggle? Normally I do it the other way, but I'm wondering if that would offer some better damage, while not reducing durability too much.

Also, what is this support passive that is so damaging that you speak of?

monsterdaddy · May 2013

In my opinion, I wouldn't do it. IDF does not generate energy and the benefit is minor. Compassion is OK for PRE and REC SS. I would focus on gear and other powers for greater defense/dodge in an Offensive Build.

That support passive is AoED for an all pet build with pet devices. This assumes the pets don't get wiped by massive AoEs like Gravitar bubbles.

sagewithbubbles · May 2013

pwestolemyname wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. I have had some really good success with a Quarry/Force build, but she drops mobs with a single shot at 100', so it's a little different.

So, what do you all think about taking an Offensive Passive and then a defensive toggle? Normally I do it the other way, but I'm wondering if that would offer some better damage, while not reducing durability too much.

Also, what is this support passive that is so damaging that you speak of?

I'd suggest, if you want to use an offensive passive, going with one of the ones Selphea mentioned, and then grabbing defense from some of the spec tree options, along with avoid gear slotted with Gambler's Lucky Gems (for dodge). Honorable mentions go to Shadow Form and Unstoppable, as they both have minor defensive components that get a little better when stacked with Defense from specs and Dodge/Avoid from gear.

IDF's really only good on either pet builds (and not that great there) or bubble-spam builds where you aren't using Compassion and you're bubbling an entire team.

There's a couple of powers you can pick up that, if they fit into your theme, greatly enhance your PvE survivability. Masterful Dodge, Ebon Void with the 1-pt advantage, Electric Sheath with its advantage, etc. Add a couple of heals for good measure (Conviction, Bionic Shielding and Empathic Healing are all good choices here). Bountiful Chi Resurgence with its advantage isn't bad when combined with dodge, but the damage penalty kinda hurts. (Or...doesn't let you hurt as much, which is the problem. Semantics)

Unknown · May 2013

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Unknown · May 2013

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Offensive Passives are Offensive

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