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Add a minimum distance to ranged powers
bioshrike
Posts: 5,491 Arc User
In short, one of the reasons ranged attacks excel is that they can be used in melee and at range. What if *most* ranged attacks had a minimum range in which they can be used? I could see being able to fire a shotgun or pistol in close range, but perhaps grenades, rocket launchers, and maybe even assault rifles should have a minimum range of 20'.
This would require ranged characters to keep a distance from their target, and could add more value to some of the often skipped attacks, (as these blast attacks could be usable from any range).
Along the same lines, perhaps a form of reverse-lunge could be added to most frameworks.
This would require ranged characters to keep a distance from their target, and could add more value to some of the often skipped attacks, (as these blast attacks could be usable from any range).
Along the same lines, perhaps a form of reverse-lunge could be added to most frameworks.
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"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
I agree with your points, especially being able to "pre-charge" melee attacks, but still feel that imposing a minimum-distance for some ranged attacks would help things as well.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I could see some merit to your idea though. This would make making melee/ranged hybrid concepts reasonable and this has been done in WoW before upon Hunters (IMO this kind of distance requirement should be back in THAT game). Taking a lunge away would also be felt to be a requirement to ranged types as lunges are for melee types and would even power limitations out a bit as well.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
This sounds nice idea for me.
The blast attacks, specifically, would not suffer from this limitation.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Or, taking damage own self by some of ranged power using in too short distance may make sense.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
There's a very real reason people don't generally fire rockets or grenades at point blank range. Ranged attacks also *need* some sort of balance mechanic, since they pretty much do the same damage AND have the benefit of range, when compared to melee attacks.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Although this game do seem to be based more on action than straight realism. Not to mention the outcry from people with uber range builds.
Wish there was more melee that either stopped or immob. enemies more. It's like this game in many aspect kind of nudges a player towards range builds which do just as much if not more damage than melee but without any downside like melee, where you can find yourself chasing enemies or the plentiful knockback in one particular melee set, and the ease of kiting which makes melee basically sitting ducks.
Although I doubt they will make that much of a significant change.
I think overall, it works well enough, it's just one of those things with melee attacks of being powerful if you can get your hands on the the opponent compared to range where you can attack at distance and dont have to do any chasing. Ironically, I only so far seen one person use grenades and no one use the rocket launcher. After testign those two out, I like them. Then again I havent been here too long yet. Might see more as I stick around.
This also wouldn't apply to the majority of the "projection" style attacks, as in the attacks where the character projects some type of energy...if I'm shooting lightning out of my hands at you, there's really no way that's going to jump back at me.
So the theme side of it would be fairly complicated to implement and would only work for a few powers anyway. If this were implemented across the board, there would be a lot of people asking "Why can my character not use their powers just because someone is standing close to them? Doesn't make any sense...". In fact, according to comic book logic, the closer you are the more damage attacks do, a la "point blank range".
Now for the mechanical side of it. Since this clearly isn't needed for PvE, and would have a fairly complicated application therein, I will assume this is intended as a pvp-oriented change. This would essentially create a situation of "If I'm in range to attack, then you're not", which is basically what melee kind of has to deal with right now, their ranged opponents constantly being in attack range and they themselves not.
And that's where we run into the problem. Ranged characters have a really easy time getting away from melee characters. The only way, currently, that a melee character can hope to do any real damage to a ranged character is through stuns, or more likely, knocks. This means that currently, the ranged character wouldn't be doing much damage anyway for the short period of time they spend in melee range.
Fact is, if you can keep a ranged player in melee range long enough for this change to have any effect, then you don't actually need this change. What we really need is better ways for melee characters to keep ranged characters in range, along with some more burst tools other than unleashed range to do relevant damage to them while they're there.
Ranged vs Melee is one of those things the industry has been struggling with for a long time...I'm not sure we'll ever see it gotten right in a game with as many other balance issues as this one has, and considering all those other issues you can't really try to implement extreme suggestions like this one.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Very good point and well said.
Why is it acceptable to limit melee to close-range only, but not ok to limit ranged attacks to, well, be ranged only? I mean, I understand that certain builds could withstand the backblast from their own attacks hitting them, but there needs to be more parity between ranged and melee, and adding a minimum range to some ranged attacks is one way to achieve that, (admittedly not the only way).
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Actually, you kind of pointed at the solution in the first part of that post. Melee attacks should deal more damage, especially burst damage. If they're not going to get the control needed to keep a target in range, then they need to burst damage to finish them off in the few seconds they get, since if they get away they're going to recover completely.
At some point, it just became the hot new thing for them to start making ranged powers that have extreme nuking capability. We now have several ranged powers that deal the highest burst damage and the highest sustained dps in the game. Melee powers generally fall behind in terms of both burst and dps damage, and of the ones that do deal good burst damage they have ridiculously long charge times. The only real tool that melee has to deal burst damage is Unleashed Rage, and that then limits you to using the Enraged form.
The other thing that helped to screw over melee is Strength becoming the best Primary Super Stat for ranged characters. The other other thing that helped to screw over melee is when they nerfed stuns/holds into the ground. Oh, and it wasn't just a one-two punch... this combo has a third part, and that's how On Alert removed the auto snare from melee attacks. Typical process around here of course; if something's a problem, nerf it into the ground so it no longer exists.
Melee either needs more control, or more damage.
I'm not saying that it's "unacceptable" to impost a minimum range on ranged attacks; what I'm saying is, it won't actually make a difference. Ranged characters don't need to be able to attack at melee range, because they have a very easy time staying out of that range.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Oh well...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Also make melee attacks chargable even at a longer distance.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
Hmm... interesting ideas. I definitely like the second idea, but while the first may help with those that take defensive passives, it doesn't really provide enough of a benefit to put oneself in more danger by being in melee to begin with.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Making melee attacks chargable at longer distances is something I support. It still wouldn't solve the problem though because you can't use a lunge or re-activate your travel power while charging...but it would just feel right... why does my character need to be right next to someone just to lift their arm and **** it back?
Buffing defense, avoidance and defensive passives against ranged damage might be a bad idea, since defenses are already too strong....you ever seen those duels that never end, and those people in hero games that never die? That would just get worse. We don't want to create a new problem while solving an old one.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The real problem is that melee attacks are underpowered relative to ranged attacks. Probably the safest place to start would be to increase melee DPS by reducing the charge times on the heavy hitting attacks. The "static" windups on some of the Might attacks are particularly silly: you can make an argument for a big roundhouse windup where you're actually moving during the entire animation, but how does standing there with my arm quivering for 1.33 seconds give my punch any more oomph?
Reducing the charge time on these attacks would also allow you to get more big hits in during the short window of time you've got the target in range.
Finally, reducing the recharge time and energy cost for lunge attacks would also help equalize ranged vs. melee characters.
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It's comic book logic. It's the same logic that causes shotgun blasts to send people flying, and let's you do more damage with pistols by pulling the trigger super hard with your super strong fingers.
Comic book logic shares a lot in common with wrestling logic... you know, where holding your opponent on your shoulders for an extra second or two while posing dramatically makes it hurt harder when you body slam them.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
And here's a flaw in your idea. You know what happens in alerts when a non-tank character gets aggro, right? In the best case, they stand and either block or try to deal as much damage as they can until they die. In the worst case, they run away and make the enemy more difficult to hit as he chases them.
If ranged attacks had a minimum range, the option to go out fighting would be prohibited, and they would be forced to run away just so they could keep dealing damage!
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Yeah that kiting do get annoying especially on those two minute drills. If can bring down the over all dps when half the team is melee but spend more time chasing the enemy than doing damage.