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More Challenging Content Petition
smoochan
Posts: 2,564 Arc User
This is a petition for us people who are asking for more challenging content to stop asking for "more challenging" content, and instead say that we are asking for more "action-oriented" content. This will help the message to be more clear, since we know if we ask for more challenge, what people are going to hear is "bigger numbers", which isn't actually what we want.
Less stand-n-spam, more run-n-gun!
Less stand-n-spam, more run-n-gun!
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
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There's too much evidence i can shove down everyones throats which prove the game (in any difficulty) is built for pansies, casual people as something more challenging who have mastered picking their nose and want the next level and archetypes.
With all respects of course, i have to say i favor bigger numbers.
Gravitar was a step in the right direction, Harbinger....was 2 steps back.
Spot on.
Especially in single player PVE, bigger numbers are needed. Because when I can 2-shot the end boss of what's supposed to be a major story arc (Mindslayer in Canada, for example - 1 shot even, if you use Shadow Strike) there's something wrong.
Though there is a bit of truth to what Smooch is saying as well. The reason Harbinger is so blase compared to someone like Gravitar is not that his 'numbers' are any lower. He's got as much health, and can land hits that can pretty easily wipe out a DPS character. Problem with him is that he hits slower, in much smaller areas, and takes ****ing forever to kill. He's not engaging; he doesn't keep you on your toes at all, and he's basically a block of health to slowly whack away at.
I'm all for it for introducing new enemy types that vary up the flow of gameplay, but when it comes to the basics of the game, higher numbers are going to be needed to counteract the fact that every character can now dodge and critical hit easily.
I vote for run-n-gun. I vote for the majority.
The problem is archetypes. Everything has to be made so it can be solo'd by the weakest archetype, so numerically they're rather restricted, expecially when it comes to mission content.
While Gravitar was a success in many ways, the one place it failed is general accessability; which would have easily been remedied by emphasizing the random force cascades less and emphasizing the bubbles more, in other words lowering the demand on character survivability and raising the demand on player reaction.
With Harbinger, I said it before, the only fun part of that whole thing was chasing the Exocets around. The portion where you stand in place and spam damage at Harbinger was about as action-oriented as typing a paper.
One solution is to make encounters less "centered" and instead make them more multi-facted so that they cater to more play styles while requiring none of them. For example, have an enouncter where in one area of the fight anyone standing in that area will continuously take heavy damage, but the damage also slowly buffs them so that the more they can withstand the stronger they get. In another area of the same fight will be a more action-oriented situation where there are explosions randomly going off that no one could possibly survive that the players have to dodge; that area would also have strong temporary buffs that massively increase the player's damage, so they would basically be running around dodging explosions and grabbing powerups while dpsing the boss, and that section would be far enough from the "survival" area that trying to use both at the same time would be unfeasable.
When you just tune the numbers higher, you leave a lot of players behind, and with how little actual content we're getting it has to be accessable to as many people as possible; but it still has to be fun.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It SHOULD be made for FREEFORMS. It SHOULD MAKE PEOPLE WANT TO SUBSCRIBE/BUY A FF SLOT, because they SHOULD acknowledge that archetypes SHOULD ONLY GO SO-FAR....not be able to do everything.
People who play for free, get too damn much, and complain too damn much.
This is true; the lowest common denominator, a badly-equipped AT, should be able to get through many of the lower-level challenges; especially considering that these are prospective customers, after all.
Even taking that into account, though, the 'numbers' of the game are too low. An AT, heck, even an inferno, can solo through the main PvE game easily - especially if they use the healing devices they get every 5 levels or so. Heck, a telepathy build without a passive can clear basic content without a problem.
The fundamental problem is that Specialization trees gave many characters a huge boost to their power, and that all the mobs in the game (save for tough ones in alerts, and even that might be a little disputable) are now underpowered because of it. Before we can apply advanced tactics and cool boss battles to the game, I feel that there's a need to close that gap.
Though ironically it's us freeforms that are complaining in this case
It seems what you're really asking for is that anyone who has spent money on the game should somehow be made more powerful, be they AT or FF, so that they can play higher level content than those players who haven't spent any money. I think anyone can see how this would be a bad move for a game that's already having trouble holding on to its players.
Fact is, archetype players have just as much right to play all the content and have a fun, satisfying experience in it as freeform players do. The game may have originally started out with freeforms being the primary, and only, focus of the game's design... but things have changed since then, so much so that you can't gauge a player's financial contribution anymore based on wether they are a freeform or an archetype.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Problem is, it's very likely that this game is no longer funded mostly by subscribers, given latests cash grabs with lockboxes. At this moment CO will end losing income by making things unplayable for archetypes as it's advertised as F2P.
Which is the problem.
On the other hand game doesn't promote enough teamplay to make use of things accessible for AT's in holy trinity oriented teams.
It's a catch 22 situation, sadly.
Then someone will take a picture of you squatting and post it on the internet for boys to fap to.
The answer to your question is easy... "This explosion penetrates all known defenses, even immunities, and cannot be dodged, and deals 100,000,000 damage."
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Does cryptic/PWE hate money? Theyre suring giving (and able to earn) away EVERYTHING for free right now.
Then maybe the game should focus on making money through the various other ways it can make money then. Just because something is hard does not mean it will be profitable.
Don't worry.
I wouldn't be surprised with more freeformlike paid archetypes in the future, and more performance boosting devices in the lockboxes. The game will do with its income.
Or rather... Do worry. :X
...
Gimme ur money!
For all the power of FFs there is a price of a lot of hassle.
"Damn it! I leveled!" *alt-tab to powerhouse*
There is more to the game than bigger numbers. Can't find an AT that matches your idea? Suck it up or go FF.
People don't only buy freeform because it's more powerful, they buy it because it's more interesting and allows them to indulge in more of the customization that is a core part of this game; one could argue that it's more likely that people are buying it for the latter reason, since the game is so easy that buying power seems kind of silly.
Keep in mind that due to the fact that people often have the idea of creating a character, rather than focusing on building the strongest build they can, there are often freeforms who's power level barely registers above that of an archetype. There are even freeforms who are less capable than archetypes. When you jack up the numbers in the game, you not only leave behind the archetype players, you also leave behind these freeforms who are completely playing the game as intended.
What do you tell those players then? Suck it up and forget about all that theme build garbage and start powergaming? There are many players who, if you offer to "help" them with their build, will tell you that they are happy with their build and don't need any advice that involves switching what powers they use, because they have the character they want. The game isn't about being as strong as you can possible be for everyone; however, everyone is here to have fun.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Has boss fights with mechanics and systems
Puts my skills to the test, not my build
Requires thought to progress
Rewards balanced teamplay, but could be soloed if need be (scaling is always important)
Has multiple solutions (sometimes)
Has multiple endings (always a plus, replay value is nice)
I can work with the first three, the others are fluff but they're REALLY GOOD fluff. I'd love it if enemies took cover behind objects to get out of my line of sight and coordinated attacks, I'd love to see enemies actually act smart to take me out rather than throw bigger numbers at me. VIPER and ARGENT are pretty much the only guys who do this, and even then they all kinda do their own thing and it accidentally piles up.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
You have a fair point. Those higher level difficulties really need to get looked at, so that the challenge is not only higher, but that the players also get better swag for doing it. Heck, I could probably blaze through the entire game on elite with an alt. I don't. Because what the hell do I get for it, aside from having to fight more enemies and a higher probability of having to run through a lair several times due to dying?
The baseline potential for characters, though, has still gone up way too high for Normal Difficulty to pose a challenge to any build. Even if it's slight, something should be done to compensate for the Specializations upgrade.
I wonder if something like GW2's fractal dungeons (which get progressively harder with each iteration) might be cool...
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I barely even do content anymore that is affected by the difficulty settings, but I agree that those need to be looked at. It would be nice if they could implement something other than "they take less damage, you take more" for difficulty though, since that doesn't actually make things more difficult, it just restricts the kinds of builds/team setups that you can bring into the instance.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Stuff that is meant for teams, like lairs, Open missions, Alerts, Rampages, and possibly Comics/Adventure Packs are all fair game for content that is too hard for any single character to solo - but should still be completable by a team of 5 level-appropriate ATs with green equipment and a decent mix of roles.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
The game must be fair for competitive players seeking challenge, it's not fair if they get forced into making under-performing builds in order to make the game not a cakewalk.
The only solution is one that's fair to both types of players because there's a lot of each group playing this game. Perhaps reworking variable difficulty is the key.
While she has been rescued
what diabolical mastermind
was behind the devious brain-napping of
the Volterrific Dr Cerebellum?
aaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
Honestly, after playing through other games lately, and seeing just how amazingly well done (with relatively simple mechanics) and challenging bossfights can be, CO just becomes more depressing to log into. Every single boss in CO feels like a pathetic baby waiting for me to stomp it's head in. Save for Gravitar, who's as easy to beat as just staying away from her and having enough non-lemmings in the random group you're stuck with so her cascades are spread out.
I want more Dangerous feeling bosses, with schtick attacks that ****ING HURT, punishing bad or slow players for once. Instead of coddling them and making them feel like they're accomplishing something for having some other person carrying them through alerts all the time. (Really, it's not like those players have or will ever actually see any of the content outside alerts anyways, so screw them.)
How a bossfight should be done.
Your hands should be sweaty and shaking when you win a fight against a worthy opponent, otherwise, where's the fun in winning? (It sure as hell isn't in the rank 4 mod and 1 SCR you get as loot off our current bosses.)
Snark never dies.
burning ring of fire o.O ouch
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Then talk about "difficultly/challenge" level
This difficulty was lost in time because everyone grew more powerful and because everyone learned the patterns. Which is kinda fine, since you can learn even the hardest games and breeze through them at one point.
Elite difficulty would, IMO, need to not go towards MORE DAMAGE but add new abilities to mobs. Passive or activated heals, as well as crippling challenge that breaks players' blocks. Throw in a NttG as well. Just think in that kind of direction instead of higher numbers. I know GW2's difficulty which was "everything one shots you, or three shots you if you're built to survive" was annoying, not difficult. You can have reasonable difficulty and challenges without lowering the margin of error to "death upon a single mistake".
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
Remember the good old days where enemies attacked much much faster.
Remember the good old days....theyre gone.
I don't remember those invisible Viper agents lunging at you in the desert making you crash down in pain with fondness. UUUGGGHH
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
Travel power removal was not challenging, it was merely an annoyance.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Precisely. If that's what's considered challenging I need to reassess some people's commentary asking for more 'challenge'.
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Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Take for example Teleport. Any PvP'er will tell you how stupid this thing is.
Or worse, ascension.
What does one need to run away from in PvE ?
Travel power removal means nothing if mobility is irrelevant to challenge. Teleport doesn't remove challenge in PvE, it allows one to bypass tedious encounters that are a foregone conclusion. Removing the ability to bypass foes that one can destroy en masse, with little effort, really has nothing to do with challenge.
Think about it, does having to actually defeat those henchmen that are completely incapable of doing you harm, make anything more difficult...or just more time consuming ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
quoted for truth...
I dont have time or need to beat every random mob on the maps just because i'm walking too close... it is tedious and distract me from what i'm focused on doing.
Making the mobs more challenging is not about making them more annoying (for the most part) with that said, adding more buffers/debuffers to mobs would be a good challenge... but the CC system needs a review... sometimes too strong on enemies and laughable on characters.
There is also a problem when i can 1 shot enemies on normal and 2 shot them on elite...
Precisely again.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I favor action/reflex oriented melee gameplay to provide my own challenge and my CO vids on youtube shows it. I have soloed elite lvl 42 lairs with multiple thematic melee builds using offensive passive focused on nothing but DPS with 30% dmg resist and dodge gear and not using block. I run pure builds without devices or legion gear to support them or inflate my builds. I basically mash buttons like crazy, and I enjoy it. This has been possible since on-alert. None of the above suggestions would actually hinder me as much, eg. elite Vikorin fight can disable, nttg and knock you like crazy.
Now this to me is a different type of challenge compared with building to survive elite content with defenses, or building around devices for dps/defense. And I recognize also that what's suitably fun for one may not be for another. Certain players who play freeforms play very reflexively and some prefer to take it easy with invincibility to achieve the similar result on the difficult content.
I actually agree more that the challenge should come from more 'action' by adding interesting mechanics situations just not the impossibly annoying ones like in JRPGS. Rather than having increased difficulty which can still be overcome easily by building around devices and legion gear, but not by building the thematic hero you want to be. I am more supportive of the 'free' in freeform than the funneling of builds in specific directions, and there should be no reason that your hero is less heroic than another because of that.
I love playing CO, but I do not actually expect CO to meet my specific challenge level. This is not that game. Let it remain the players choice to enjoy the game freely with freeforms. I can play any game on the market for challenge and I do tend to try other games out.
.....
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Then the obvious question becomes:
Why have henchmen at all?
Besides, in comics, henchmen only:
1. Slowed the hero down.
2. Tire/exhaust the hero.
3. Distract the hero while the Villain (get's away, or sets up to one-shot the hero).
It sounds like most players are too busy or too easily annoyed (or bored) to fight henchmen. So just remove them.
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
From the Adventures of Thundrax (canadascott)
***
No.
Making content that only optimized free-forms can handle sorta ruins the concept of being a hero. Also ruins the concept of a hero game, as well.
Making content that archetypes can do, but an optimized freeform can do better fits perfectly with CO's philosophy.
Now, for this to work, that would require a complete rebalancing of everything for EACH character's choices...good luck with that. We can't even get telepathy fixed after how long?
In it's current state it's ridiculous. the 1st 3 or was it 4, settings have no use.
None of the settings add mobs to the game if you're soloing. CoX (yea blaa blaa...) had the option to add mobs when you were soloing (or teaming), so you could go solo missions which had mob numbers equal to 1-5 team members. And the difficulty would add more Villain/SuperVillain/Enforcer class villains to maps.
And the current aggro mechanics, you can run thru VIPER base in desert and pull mobs to chase you, but after, what 10 mobs, the 1st ones give up more new ones you pull.
The minions are cannon fodder, there to slow the heroes progress and to annoy him/her, nothing more.
Think of the glory to infliltrate VIPER base and face 100's of VIPER soldiers there, with dozens of Draysha powered Enforcers and stuff.
But we are **** out of luck getting some fixes in this game.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Its like besides to add increased risk but not proper reward to a mission there doesn't seem to be any point if whether I play on lowest setting or higher setting the end result is the same. In game a few people said the higher difficulty setting had better drops why if it did in fact work like that did they remove that feature?
Because they assigned a single dev (GCrush) to redo all of the gear, drops, and items in the game into the new system we have now within about a 2 week time period?
And he basically ran out of time and half-assed it so they could shove "On-Alert!" to the live server, just like they always do with new updates. So that means absolutely nothing was fine tuned and the whole difficulty slider system was left to rot, just like the nemesis system and many other features we had before but are pretty much dead now.
Snark never dies.
Friends don't let friends post while wearing nostalgia goggles.
I don't think the game should be balanced around a relatively small number of people who choose to build characters that can withstand anything. Most people I know don't play like that. If every one of my characters was expected to be able to do things like solo Gravitar, I wouldn't be able to play anything in this game, and would be shoehorned into making a frankenbuild just to survive. Frankenbuilds are not fun for me. I don't want my no-superpower gunslinger to have to make fire rain come out of the sky and summon a freaking black hole to eat up incoming damage just so I can be on par with all the superbuilders out there.
I'm 100% for bosses that use unique mechanics, though. Use the environment to make bosses more difficult. Make fights that you have to develop strategies to win, not just "I CAN HIT HARD AND CAN TAKE A HARD HIT." Put a knockback-happy boss in a room with moving dangerous-to-touch objects so you have to keep moving and be aware of your surroundings while also punching the dude in the face. Have bosses that change forms every now and again that have different weaknesses, or some forms that make them invincible for a short time, putting the player in full defense mode.
For instance, what makes one Dockside Dustup any different from the other? The only one that's different is Nemesis Dustup, because you have to dodge all the crying about knockbacks. But otherwise they're all pretty much the same. Well, Baron Cimetiere has his voodoo doll block, which is neat, but that's like, it. We need more "Oh, crap, we're fighting X. Make sure you don't do Y and everyone that has Z, keep it ready for when he does W."
Three years ago I would have agreed with you. But the fact is that Freeforms didn't put enough money into the game. Free players, on the other hand, allowed the game to remain afloat and populated.
Notice how I didn't include Gravitar? That's because she is a tank and spank that requires resisting and recovering her random spike damage. HOWEVER, it could be a piece to a very widespread form of difficulty. While Gravitar requires this strategy, other epic bosses could require a vastly different strategy and build/gear sets. More pieces and things to bounce back and forth between. This variation could force the most elite players to fit their characters to either do well against one and terrible against the others.
We need more variation. We need more encounters added to the game. And most important of all, we need need them to be permanent.
Another adventure pack would be nice, too.