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rtma
Posts: 1,198 Arc User
In my about 10months experience on CO and for simplicity sake I'll stick with Defensive Passives this time, the frequency of Passive use and I'm curious on why it is so.
In Descending order why is it that I see Invulnerability the most and Regen the least? also a power I thought synergized with Regen is Resurgence, mentions that it suppose to increase it's regen amount temporally, yet when I check the passive it's numbers are still the same, maybe this would balance it in it's favour? but mainly I'm curious on why this order as is in my experience, Opinions?
In Descending order why is it that I see Invulnerability the most and Regen the least? also a power I thought synergized with Regen is Resurgence, mentions that it suppose to increase it's regen amount temporally, yet when I check the passive it's numbers are still the same, maybe this would balance it in it's favour? but mainly I'm curious on why this order as is in my experience, Opinions?
- Invulnerability
- Defiance
- Lightning Reflexes
- Personal Force Field
- Regeneration
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I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
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2. combined with idf equals invul easily, and to top it off you get free energy (and lots of it) every 4s you are hit
3. very easy to work with, laser knight bcr, msa and resurgence will get you far.
4 and 5 are more opinionated, i've been seeing/using regen alot more than PFF for example.
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I think regen comes in at the bottom as well because some of the really big foes throw out so much damage that, unmitigated, it will just outright kill you. I'm sure someone has done some research with Dodge Stacking + Regeneration; I don't know much about that, but it seems like a viable route for a defensive passive.
If I had to guess why PFF shows up more than regen, I'd wager that it's a style thing; regen barely has any graphics, so it can be replaced with LR without ruining your concept. PFF, on the other hand, looks like a bubble.
Yup yup, it got changed a while ago. Now it's layered under IDF, Dodge, damage resistance, etc.
Personally, I see Invuln waaay too often. Practically every other person with a defensive one I see has it.
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Invuln provides a very general, and still powerful, defense buff against damage. Not only this, but the flat damage reduction on it is quite substantial, and at high stat levels, so is the percentage reduction. It just does really well against all kinds of damage, can be used with any stat combination, and when combined with some dodge, you're unstoppable.
Defiance lacks the subtraction bonus that Invuln gets, and trades it off for energy generation and, theoretically, extra defense against burst damage. This makes it popular among dedicated tanks, who like fighting against cosmics. However, in general terms, its stymied by the fact that it gains less benefit from dodges (which work best against huge damage bursts), only scales with constitution, and the fact that, in many cases, energy just isn't a problem for most people.
LR is easy to build around, but has little potential. It's already way too easy to stack dodge stats given decent equipment. The stuff that makes dodge work, like BCR, all come from outside the passive itself. Heck, if you had a dodge piece on a character with LR, you could replace it with any other passive and still do well.
Regen's difficulty comes from the fact that, traditionally, most defense is based around applying a self-heal, like BCR or Conviction. Regen instantly erases all need for such accessories. Theoretically, this means that Regen's defense cap is lower than most other passives, but this actually isn't the case at all; give it dodge equipment (noticing a pattern here...?) and it probably would do just as well as any other defense passive listed here.
PFF is much the same as Regen, only it's even more esoteric. It's like half-regen that will only recover half your "health" slowly, requires you to block a lot, and can only really be quickly repaired with a single ability... Yet again, however, other defenses can be layered on top of the PFF, including Protection Field, Mindful Reinforcement, other barrier advantages, and.... You guessed it, dodges.
In general, the distribution of defensive passives is as much a product of effectiveness as it is a result of past stigmas and such. This would explain why PFF isn't seen so rarely. As for Regen... Well, it's passive icon is hidden, so unless you notice someone healing unnaturally fast, you're not really going to be able to tell who has this passive and who doesn't.
At some point, I think people will realize they can just drop defensive passives altogether, make a tank that runs with an offensive passive, protector+bulwark, high constitution, and a dodge primary defense.
Oh, that's cool -- thanks! I know I have a character here somewhere that uses it as a passive...might have to dust him/her off.
Invuln is easy to work with. It provides sturdy defenses and a flat damage reductions. I'd rank it as #2 for best in the defensive category.
Defiance is also easy to work with, but sadly with on alert has lost most of it's punch due to not scaling on superstats and energy return being rather trivial. Invuln is a superior choice. Ranked #3.
It baffled me why LR isn't the top defensive passive in game post on alert with the flat percent dodge change. People say you can easily acquire dodge, they seem to miss that acquiring avoidance is much more difficult. LR is ranked #1 for me in the defensive list, by a lot.
Personal Force Field was changed up a bit, but does not directly benefit from healing, where all the other passives do. This is a major flaw in the passive. Ranked #5.
Regen is stronger then it once was, has overall more hps and a 30% resistance to damage if you're at high health. It's a very ezmode passive that you'll probably see more of at lower levels, but becomes a tad more difficult to upkeep at higher levels. Ranked #4.
As for your order, I'd put most of it to popular taste. "Invulnerability" is a common name amongst the superhero games so I imagine most are drawn to it. Defiance was once regarded as the most potent defensive passive, so I imagine folks are still clinging to it. Stuff like that.
That all being said, defensive passives are optional at this state in the game as power creep has taken it's toll. There's barely anything in game that would require one to heavily stack up on defenses, so running a defensive offensive passive (Quarry, WotW) will give you enough survivability and permit you to play offensively.
PFF has one interesting advantage - no need to have CON as SS for tanking. This allows you to take on energy hungry builds and/or boost crits or healing. A PFF Hybrid spamming Protection Field and DPS can be fun. But at higher levels, I haven't found PFF adequate for tanking.
LR with a DEX PSS allows interesting options including the only good use of an Offense Glove I have found. With Dex, Vindicator and Guardian/Warden, the Dex spec allows you to skip crit mods on the glove and just pile on Offense. With LR, you can skip Dodge/Avoid and pile on Defense. Between the two, I have found the crit spec to add 91 critical rating which makes up for 1 crit core and 78% damage resistance. Good for DPS and defense.
Alternatively, you can pile on Avoidance and go 100% Dodge between Thundering Kicks and Evasive Maneuvers.
Regeneration is my favorite because of my playstyle. I don't like pressing buttons to heal and prefer high DPS output with 2 Active Offenses. Saving that power slot is needed in some of my builds with debuff/toggle powers. Regen does require a good investment in Defense and Dodge/Avoidance. (STR is a great PSS for Regen.) If you are skilled in using Laser Knight, then Regen is a very good passive. (i.e. tap to activate LK and then block a Grav bubble -- easiest 33% damage avoidance in the game, even for Two Gun Mojo users)
I have only one Invulnerability toon which is a very fun theme toon with IDF, Might/Electric. With STR/Warden/Vind and Defensive Combo, we have 175% damage resistance and 295 pt absorb plus Dodge/Avoid. Just had to figure out the energy issues.
Defiance is a little build-specific because it can take a crap on you. You either have to hold aggro or you're stuck with less defense than Ego Form when a big AoE hits. But if you can hold aggro it's as good as a 2-in-1 Passive + extra Energy Unlock. And it saves you 4 Advantage Points too.
LR is also build-specific because you have to build and gear in an unconventional way. The challenge with LR is to be able to maintain 100% dodge when you need it. This usually involves a build with either Evasive Maneuvers, Thundering Kicks or both, because they add very high Dodge% that isn't affected by diminishing returns. Problem is, if you take Evasive Maneuvers, the time you spend backflipping is the time you spend not doing damage or generating aggro. If you take Thundering Kicks, you don't generate much aggro because it's a fairly low damage combo and doesn't have a self heal component unlike Devour Essence. If you take both and can maintain 100% dodge with self heals indefinitely though, your character is as good as immortal. Really bar none the most defensive defensive passive when built right, but not the most tanky because of the aggro aspect.
PFF again is very build-specific. I personally wouldn't build PFF without a ton of Int, Cooldown Reduction, Nanobot Swarm, Field Surge and Masterful Dodge. Maybe even Revitalize with Wrist Bolter or Radiance, or just Primary Rec with Second Wind to make sure I always have an AD when PFF goes down. Of course, there's less extreme ways to build a PFF character, but then dying might actually be a reality, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting a defensive passive.
Regen I think Monsterdaddy has covered already. IMO it's pretty much a second Conviction pop. It's nice, but you'll need a good answer to burst damage. Like stacking Circle of Primal Dominion, Armadillo Set, Primary Strength with Juggernaut, Laser Knight etc.
So in terms of popularity I think it's more because of compatibility with builds rather than actual performance of the passive.
You can actually use it without regen.
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Invuln is good and relatively popular, but it has the same drawback that its in set Active Defense has, its great against one power at a time (per target). But somebody with the Electric PBAoE as a Toggle or running a multi-toggle Power Armor build and it sort of shorts out trying to keep track...or at least its been my experience...I'm sure there are builds out there with it that keep that information in mind and build to fill that gap with Dodge and other mitigation...
As far as PFF goes, just ask Cyrone or RavenForce how to work out a build around it, they're pros when it comes to PFF. Just read Raven's sig in one of her posts, she's gotten her PFF up to I think 8.7k at the moment.
With LR just stack other mitigations and you're set. With LR and Defiance, these two are the special cases for your Advantage points, you don't need to rank because they both build stacks for your defense. LR what it does is build stacks until you dodge an attack and then it consumes those stacks and starts over. Defiance, on the other hand builds stacks to 6 so long as you're getting hit...which in the current meta if you're not on top of your game with Tanking outside of a Soul Siphon Alert you're pretty much stuck with minimal defense.
People usually put 4 Adv Pts in LR because no one really cares about the stacking dodge mechanism. You want to dodge EVERY attack and reduce that damage down as much as possible. The 4pts is worthwhile.
Invulnerability surely is common because running with that and self-heals is real easy. Defiance is slightly trickier because it feels more vulnerable to high spike alpha strikes, so I wouldn't be surprised if people unsure of what to pick go with Invulnerability.
Regeneration, hmm. I think it's underrated, but that may be because I'm looking at it mostly from a PvE perspective. On the right build with some Dodge/Avoidance gear, it's quite solid. I suspect it's fairly bad in PvP, though (hight alpha strike will kill your damage resistance so if anyone can pile on extra damage quick, should kill you before Regen does enough).
PFF, eh. I haven't given it a try since way back when it really did suck, and I suspect I'm not alone in this. Did it get better? Most people likely don't even bother to find out.
1. Invulnerability - easiest to use, doesn't require a specific SS, and doesn't need to be built-up like Defiance or PFF.
2. Defiance - good if you're the main tank, or are in a position where you'll maintain full stacks. The built-in energy return is a huge bonus, but having to wait for it to ramp up to full effectiveness, plus still being vulnerable to a "death by 1000 cuts" can be annoying. It also pretty much locks you into SS-ing CON.
3. LR - now, I've heard people rave about this, but personally I just don't like it. It's basically a chance at getting some damage resistance, and requires significant investment in dodge/avoidance gear. You're pretty much also going to have to take BCR w/ RR. I just don't care for the unreliability of it.
4. PFF - even with all the improvements this power has seen. it can still be "shut off" during prolonged combat. It also requires a heavy investment in INT to bring down the recharge on field surge, and likely a block replacer like force shield, to buy you extra time for the field to build back up.
5. Regen - a good catch-all passive, as it doesn't really need anything else to work and scales w/ your SS's instead of PRE. I also consider it a plus that the associated active defense, resurgence, can be advantaged to also act as a break free. It does falter versus really heavy spike damage, and there are some enemies and powers that specifically target healing, so you gotta watch out for them.
6. Aura of Radiant Protection - I'm including this here because I've toyed around with it on a few "pseudo-tanks". At rank 3, and with your superstats at good levels, it provides a good damage resist bonus in the hybrid role, but more importantly, it's also helping your team at the same time. If you aren't primary tank, you can switch to the support role, and basically get a huge bonus to energy for "free". Yeah, it's never gonna make you as tough as Invuln or Defiance, but it has an added degree of flexibility that some other passives lack.
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But yes, everyone is correct.
PFF however, as I think someone else mentioned, benefits from Dodge/Avoid, IDF, Protection Field, Field Surge, Energy Refraction and Force Sheath. All advantages which buff defense.
Personally on my 8.7k PFF toon, I dont SS CON at all, and I have managed to tank Warlord and survive a yellow bubble from Gravitar. It is highly dependant on dodge/avoid mechanics, and they are very very nice additions to PFF. I'd recommend MD and Field Surge in a build.
I'm not as adept at tanking with PFF as Cyrone. But I have my moments :biggrin:
Blocking is needed. However, PFF has a few flaws, there arent enough powers to repair PFF, apart from Field Surge, Blocking (in combat only as this increases the regen rate two times of normal rate, only works in combat however) and PFFs natural regen which is every 3 seconds.
PFF unlike any other defensive passive or passive for that matter can be deactivated by in coming damage.
PFF can be removed from the user via Energy Storm as it wrongfully (IMO) treats PFF as a containment field and so it removes it, this will also insta-evap Field Surge or Protection Field if you try to repair PFF during this process.
PFF is also at the mercy of VIPER's Pulson Technology. PFF as a standard is meant to absorb 95% of incoming damage and let through 5%, Pulson Tech reverses this so you take 95% of damage to self and your PFF takes 5% of incoming damage, allowing you to die with ~100% PFF still active.
Recent QQing on the PFFers part cause PFF to be updated and fixed to adhere to the correct forumula for PFF regen as it was severly under performing. It now regens a higher amount in combat, however at its current level I get 794 shields per 3 sec and I have 8.7k PFF..and that regen rate is still cut in half in combat, and then cut again once you get below 50% shields, making PFF die VERY quickly if it goes below 50%.
I think PFF needs a secondary mechanic, like a damage absorb mechanic or something to make it last longer. Healing would be nice and should be a secondary mechanic of Protection Field, perhaps with a 3 sec CD or something, so it would restore a portion of PFF, but Protection Field should first scale with SS instead of PRE.
I'd also lurve a visual FX for PFF..who knows? Maybe there might be a dome/spherical shaped aura for PFF
I hope this information helps. If you want moar, look up Cyrone's PFF Help thread, if you are particularly intrested in PFF
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As for the frequency of appearance of defensives, I usually see them in an order like:
Invuln
Regen / Defiance
PFF
LR
Ever since all the new gear came out I've seen less and less Lightning Reflexes characters because of how easy it is now to stack dodge/avoidance.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Highlighted orange portion is wrong. It no longer gets cut in half when in combat. Only when the shields are below the damage threshold.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
When was that fixed? I still get half of 794 in combat. Am I bugged then? Cause I know I do not get the full amount....
EDIT:
This holds true from what I can gather. I'm about to do a test in game though.
Tested it and yeah PFF rate decreases in combat, I was getting around 400 shields back in combat whilst taking damage only when I was blocking in combat did I get the 1.5k.
I also found out if I get enough lvl 27s to attack me I can die with over 90% PFF remaining. It took forever, but it was do able nonetheless.
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That was the first change to PFF. At what levels are your shields getting half? Between 90-100% shields is when you get the full regen amount.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Hmm, I see. This should really be a universal amount as a base, instead of reserved to the 90% + threshold IMO.
I was blocking and got around 20? Ifrit/Bale/Demon creatures to attack me, and they slowly wittled my HP down and I died with 90% PFF remaining so around 7.9k left. After my HP dropped to around 50? I died instantly, it was like everything just popped. I was using block as well..hmm
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As soon as I enter combat, anything that surpasses the 8.1k threshold and I immediately see a huge decline.
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Sounds about right. Higher shields = higher threshold. Plus you have shield boosting specs which only affect shields and not the regen. So your regen on the shield is actually "healing" for a non-spec'd PFF.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Only for around the same amount it regens for, since my non boosted value would be 8.1k so it would be healing for 613 and the regen amount is 796..hmm...oh well.
At least its in a better state than Telepathy
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