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Bleak Harbinger event update

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  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited February 2013
    I have totally no opinion about Lemurian Invasion, not to mention the Bleak Harbringer.

    Not even sure if I'll be playing it. With or without level changes.

    But I think I'll leave this one here, just for providing a bit more balanced view on things:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/27/a-mild-mannered-reporter-news-from-around-the-superheroic-world/
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I have totally no opinion about Lemurian Invasion, not to mention the Bleak Harbringer.

    Not even sure if I'll be playing it. With or without level changes.

    But I think I'll leave this one here, just for providing a bit more balanced view on things:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/27/a-mild-mannered-reporter-news-from-around-the-superheroic-world/

    Shocking. Massively posts something on CO that's fairly detached from reality. I never would have seen that coming...all the more reason this game could use some "press" from the actual players.
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  • canadascottcanadascott Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I'm not a big fan of exclusivity. but I think that "epic" should be reserved for characters who've earned it through length of play. If epic is what you're striving for with this event, this is absolutely the correct call, and thanks for making it.

    Since SL, CO's philosophy has largely been to encourage all levels participation vs. level gating, sometimes to its detriment; some of the boss fights in APs and CSs and a couple of the special alerts are extremely low level unfriendly, but I understand why you want to keep things accessible. It's a hard decision to make to cut off so much of the player base especially when your two previous 10-man efforts (Gravitar and the Carrier) are so difficult to trigger because of lack of participation, so I appreciate that this was not an easy call. But I'm glad people have something new that's epic that they have to work toward.

    As a complete aside, I do hope at some time in the reasonably near future, perhaps in conjunction with the fine devs over at NWO, you'll consider implementing a 10 man raid system that links two teams together and allows them to queue as a group for Rampages and Heroics. Such a system would encourage larger SG participation in instances like Gravitar, the Carrier, the upcoming FREON/Blaze fight, and this mission. And as I said elsewhere, the lair review, including a revision and reincentivization for teams on the elite setting, is badly needed (as are some new mission chains for the L6-15 segment, to encourage non-alert leveling of alts, perhaps unlocked after the player has completed Westside for the first time if you believe that streamlining is necessary for new players).
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  • bwdaresbwdares Posts: 1,517 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I'm not a big fan of exclusivity. but I think that "epic" should be reserved for characters who've earned it through length of play. If epic is what you're striving for with this event, this is absolutely the correct call, and thanks for making it.

    Since SL, CO's philosophy has largely been to encourage all levels participation vs. level gating, sometimes to its detriment; some of the boss fights in APs and CSs and a couple of the special alerts are extremely low level unfriendly, but I understand why you want to keep things accessible. It's a hard decision to make to cut off so much of the player base especially when your two previous 10-man efforts (Gravitar and the Carrier) are so difficult to trigger because of lack of participation, so I appreciate that this was not an easy call. But I'm glad people have something new that's epic that they have to work toward.

    As a complete aside, I do hope at some time in the reasonably near future, perhaps in conjunction with the fine devs over at NWO, you'll consider implementing a 10 man raid system that links two teams together and allows them to queue as a group for Rampages and Heroics. Such a system would encourage larger SG participation in instances like Gravitar, the Carrier, the upcoming FREON/Blaze fight, and this mission. And as I said elsewhere, the lair review, including a revision and reincentivization for teams on the elite setting, is badly needed.


    I think Gravitar and the Carrier missions lack participation is due to a lack of proper rewards.
    Both can be Hard, though Gravitar can be really really frustrating. I hope the rewards for Harbringer get improved, otherwise I see it ending up like the others.
    #Mechanon!(completed) #New Zones! #Foundry!
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I agree, I think Gravitar and Carrier fail because they are lame, not because a lack of people. The alert queues are usually filled to the brim, getting 10 people to run together really isn't hard.
  • ninjapiffninjapiff Posts: 282 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Really, my only problem is that they don't update the Main Site's page. I woke up this morning, expecting the update, only to find out it wasn't ready yet -.-

    I guess I should really start looking at the Forum updates, huh? :rolleyes:
    It makes sense, if you don't think about it.
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  • wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Posts: 531 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I have to say i woke up and logged on because i was excited for the mission (I refuse to call it a mega event unless in sarcasm because it's been anything but) but was horribley disappointed that it wasn't up yet. From there i ran to the forums to see what was up and i have to admit, while i'm not happy about the delay, i don't care any more, but in a good way.

    You'd be surprised what the players would let you get away with as long as you gave them an honest and open answer like that. Its a simple "hey, we have it but it's not as good as we'd like it and we want you to help make it better." Don't make excuses, don't lie and say its something it's not, just the honest truth and people will forgive you. Ask those same people to help make it better and they'll love you even more. I like this post for that very reason, and bonus points for not making TrailTurtle do it. I look Forward to trying this on the test server and giving my feedback.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You'd be surprised what the players would let you get away with as long as you gave them an honest and open answer like that. Its a simple "hey, we have it but it's not as good as we'd like it and we want you to help make it better." Don't make excuses, don't lie and say its something it's not, just the honest truth and people will forgive you. Ask those same people to help make it better and they'll love you even more. I like this post for that very reason, and bonus points for not making TrailTurtle do it. I look Forward to trying this on the test server and giving my feedback.

    Absolutely on the spot. There was a time when more devs posted and we let them know that this is the exact kind of thing we wanna hear. In this case, bad news is better than no news. As long as we know what's going on, at least we know what's happening.
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  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    lordgar wrote: »

    Streamline the map somewhat.

    Some players were getting lost in the mission, so we're looking into ways to avoid that.

    A suggestion:

    If able, place tremendous and devastating tidal waves with hero mentalists struggling to hold them back with all their power. this will help define better borders for the playable area while adding immersion(no pun intended).

    Add a light beacon like in the Nighthawk vehicle encounter that helps fallen heroes who respawn find the currently active encounter parts visually.

    Extra: Save drowning civilians. This will let you put some nasty sharks in the map.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • bwdaresbwdares Posts: 1,517 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Absolutely on the spot. There was a time when more devs posted and we let them know that this is the exact kind of thing we wanna hear. In this case, bad news is better than no news. As long as we know what's going on, at least we know what's happening.

    I wouldn't consider this to be bad news at all. I think it is great news. They listened to us and actually WANT us to work with them.

    As to what Brou said. I think having NPC Heroes throwing up barriors would be awesome. Could even work in Cameos from Chartacters int he P&P game. Start using the resources and lore available to you! :)
    #Mechanon!(completed) #New Zones! #Foundry!
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,429 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    So far I've tried to queue for the mission on PTS half a dozen times at different days and times and never found anyone else in it. I'd be happy to give it a try and give feedback if I can actually get into it.
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  • sparhawksparhawk Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Kudos Cryptic, this is a good step in the right direction.
  • galactikattgalactikatt Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    lordgar wrote: »
    We'd like to have all kinds of Gold players, both hardcore PTS regulars and dabblers who use Archetypes, so we can really see the balance. Details are yet to be finalized, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have a number of old dev AFs available as rewards.

    Why will only Gold players be eligible for action figures? What about Silvers? I would think that having Silver players participate would also add to testing the balance. It's not like you're going to run out of the pixelated action figures! :eek:
  • iamruneiamrune Posts: 965 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Why will only Gold players be eligible for action figures? What about Silvers? I would think that having Silver players participate would also add to testing the balance. It's not like you're going to run out of the pixelated action figures! :eek:

    Only Gold members have access to PTS, and that's how it should remain.

    If you want access, pony up. :tongue:
  • galactikattgalactikatt Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    iamrune wrote: »
    Only Gold members have access to PTS, and that's how it should remain.

    If you want access, pony up. :tongue:
    OOPS! Thanks, iamrune. I didn't know that.

    *crawls into a corner and hides from embarrassment*
  • matixzonmatixzon Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Mmmm... A massively post mentions the recent situation: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/28/ask-massively-we-bake-bread-to-crush/ .
    @mawexzon

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  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    OOPS! Thanks, iamrune. I didn't know that.

    *crawls into a corner and hides from embarrassment*

    Don't be embarrassed. It was a good question (and his answer was spot on).

    Something to consider is that subscribing for a single month gives a permanent free hideout, $5 worth of zen, and, if the AF thing comes through, potential access to a rare AF.

    This might be a good month for people who are into such things to sink $15 into the game.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited February 2013
    iamrune wrote: »
    Only Gold members have access to PTS, and that's how it should remain.

    If you want access, pony up. :tongue:

    Actually, as a player who has access to PTS, I can't agree. It shoudn't.

    Only Gold players having ability to test things is bad and harmful thing.
    It's something what makes that only few people can test things.

    It also ensures that things are rarely balanced for AT's because there is no point to bother with AT's on the gold account.

    It's not even a real priviledge.

    To be unpaid and ignored QA assistant? To waste your game time on hunting bugs instead of having fun/progress/RP/whatever on the live shard?

    The only thing that I'm doing on the PTS, is testing FF builds, that's all.

    CO should have PTS accessible for silver accounts exactly like STO has.

    Or maybe with an exception that only people who bought enough Zen, or spent enough in Z-Store are allowed on PTS.
    Just to ensure that only more or less dedicated players will be testing things.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I have no issues with opening up the PTS for silver players. However, it is important to note that silver ATs are more of a hook or entry point for non-subbing players into the game. Ultimately, players should be headed towards a freeform toon either through monthly sub, LTS or freeform slots.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,317 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Um, guys? <raises hand> I run ATs when I'm Gold. I get access to all of them then, and I'm not really into running spreadsheets before I play a game (one reason I never got into EVE Online). Sometimes, you just want to jump into the driver's seat and roll, you know?

    And when I'm Gold, if there are any upcoming events, I'll be happy to go test them out on my non-optimized, non-max-leveled ATs, to see how things go then.
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  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Um, guys? <raises hand> I run ATs when I'm Gold. I get access to all of them then, and I'm not really into running spreadsheets before I play a game (one reason I never got into EVE Online). Sometimes, you just want to jump into the driver's seat and roll, you know?

    And when I'm Gold, if there are any upcoming events, I'll be happy to go test them out on my non-optimized, non-max-leveled ATs, to see how things go then.

    LOL we know you run ATs even though you are gold. That's all fine and good. It did occur to you that you can still build a freeform to mimic an AT right?
  • agentnx5agentnx5 Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    lordgar wrote: »
    We have run several playtests over the past few days, both internally and externally, and while we've put a lot of energy into the Bleak Harbinger fight, as it stands right now, it doesn't deliver on the promise we'd envisioned. As a result we are going to delay this release. Our new target is next Thursday, March 7th.

    Normally a delay would be a negative, but in this case it's awesome news!

    1. Some communication from the devs as to what's being worked on. Silence isn't a good thing, it leads to speculation. And the difference between Star Trek Online developers and Champions Online developers in terms of involvement like day & night. Hopefully this is the start of a trend of better communication.

    2. Having it delayed so it wouldn't be a poorly-made, bugged mess that will drive customers away for feeling like the game is going down the tubes is a good thing. It's better to have to wait for it to be done professionally and foster customer loyalty than make hasty attempts. The video game market is too competitve to be treating customers like a dime a dozen, especially considering many PCs gamers are actually extremely involved and knowledgable (compared to console gamers who tend to be more casually aloof).

    3. Bug fixes is the #1 think the community wants as a whole. I have ample evidence to prove this if you doubt me. It is followed closely by a need for new content and people mentioning STO's Foundry.

    4. Have fun & do your best with making the Harbinger battle! :smile:

    lordgar wrote: »
    Tune mission to match level 40 characters, & gate the mission for level 35+ characters.

    This is definitely a good idea! Many passives and equipment isn't fully effective if it's not level 40, it's more than a linear increase.
  • agentnx5agentnx5 Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I have no issues with opening up the PTS for silver players. However, it is important to note that silver ATs are more of a hook or entry point for non-subbing players into the game. Ultimately, players should be headed towards a freeform toon either through monthly sub, LTS or freeform slots.

    I agree 100%.

    What's more, the pure-subscription model didn't work for Champions, and pure F2P makes for a crappy game with pay-to-win and obviously underfunded development (pure F2P is very much "feast or famine" with tons of risk/instability).

    The ideal is a balance, a hybrid of options.

    Think of it like being a mix of being paid hourly/salaried and being paid on comission / by bonus. The most stable (and with great earnings) is salary + bonuses if you meet your goals.

    Analogies:
    Salaried :: LTS Membership
    Hourly :: Gold (monthly/periodic) Membership
    Comission / Tips :: F2P micro-transactions.

    Things should lean on the F2P side of the balance because there's more money in it, especially with a large volume of smaller sales for a virtual product (no actual material is used up in production).

    That said, you want to give compelling reasons to subscribe. And limiting the gold/resources cap on Silver Members isn't it (that just hurts Gold/LTS members because they can't access a market to sell their stuff to at reasonable prices).
  • meedacthunistmeedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2013
    There is one problem with such optimistic way of thinking.
    It doesn't work.
    State of the game isn't enough of incentive for spending money of FF slot or subscribing, unless somebody badly wants a single FF slot or more character slots than it's reasonable with buying separate slots.

    Look at population in RenCen shows that population doesn't shift to subscription or FF slots at all. Usually there is roughly 50/50 freeforms/archetypes, it's even more Archetypes than freeforms at certain times.

    Those freeforms are very often the same players, repeating handles.

    I'm sorry, but CO is definitively f2p now and, PWE has no intent in promoting subscriptions, it's an oddity for their business models. Even amongst the Cryptic games, considering how few are benefits of having subscription in STO.

    There is no point in hoping that this game will be ever again FF/subscription oriented. Unless it will be entirely remade in the STO/NWN way.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    In a F2P environment, there will always be more F2P players then subbers or LTS simply because they can just download and play the game. These F2P players may even spend some money on micro-transactions in game. Many of these F2P players I suspect may not stay with the game long and may not contribute much individually (although in given the quantity of F2P players this will become substantial).

    Subbers may leave the game at points in time and let their sub lapse but generally when they return from their hiatus, they will usually subscribe in order to play their ff toons. They may spend a little more during the period of play.

    LTS is a different breed altogether. I know of those who after getting the LTS refuse to spend another cent on the game and also those who continue to support the game by participating in these micro-transactions, beyond what the stipend can support.

    End of the day, I believe the ideal state will be a large portion of F2P players will get interested enough in the game to convert to the 2nd group of LTS.

    Alternatively, other group will be F2P players who are be willing to get the FF slot and then continue to commit time and money in terms of microtransactions.

    To say that there is no value in subs is swinging the other way as well. Be it F2P, monthly sub or LTS, end of the day they are equally important as long as they continue to participate in the micro-transactions. Subbers and LTS pays additional subscription but get the 500 zen stipend.

    Monthly sub provides opportunity for F2P to experiment with FF before committing to a FF slot as well although allowing the FF slot for an existing toon may be even more attractive.

    LTS is for those who are very sure they want to stick with the game through thick and thin. Every paying customer is important. But when it comes to prioritizing the needs, in the event of a conflict of interest, of the 3 groups, then it will definitely be to the segment which can bring in the most revenue.

    Somehow I felt like I said nothing LOL
  • serendipitynowserendipitynow Posts: 554 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Oh, I could get there easily enough, but I prefer the slow game. I don't rush. If I miss it, eh, I miss it.

    I agree and feel the same, but you could do what i did (for a previous event) grind a character to max purely on smash in couple of days to use for things like this, while in the meantime your main character is taking time exploring all the game. Best of both worlds as you get a max character when needed and by doing it via smashes it doesnt spoiler anything for the main character levelling up slower with the content.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    matixzon wrote: »
    Mmmm... A massively post mentions the recent situation: http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/28/ask-massively-we-bake-bread-to-crush/ .

    And again gets it all wrong with posting something fairly separate from reality based on the authors opinion and bias rather than facts. The argument the author presents as the playerbase's opinion (nooblets? WTH?) is not the position people here took at all.
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  • cyronecyrone Posts: 1,028 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Oh. Good. Looks like I haven't missed much. (Still no computer so no access to Champs to be in game).
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  • matixzonmatixzon Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And again gets it all wrong with posting something fairly separate from reality based on the authors opinion and bias rather than facts. The argument the author presents as the playerbase's opinion (nooblets? WTH?) is not the position people here took at all.

    Yeah, Elliot said that different parts of the staff took different sides, it's more about endgame that elitism, Although Elliot said it was a good thing i sent that tip mentioned, I'm not sure from people's reactions if it was the best thing i would have done.
    @mawexzon

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  • tilartatilarta Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Please clarify if I missed something, but shouldn't this have been deployed by now?

    They said one week last week, so it should be have reached live yesterday.

    Oh, by the way, I live in Australia, so the Cryptic release dates are always skewed by timezone differences.
    General rule, when they say Thursday, to me, that means Friday.


    I just hope it goes better then the carrier mission!

    I wanted to try out all the new vehicles I acquired, just to see how the different versions changed gameplay.

    I got one queue first week of the game trying the carrier mission.

    Because the queues were never starting up, I wasn't able to put my new acquistions through their test drive.

    And I didn't really feel like spending ages in a game just watching a queue fail to pop, so I stopped playing again.

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  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    tilarta wrote: »
    Please clarify if I missed something, but shouldn't this have been deployed by now?

    They said one week last week, so it should be have reached live yesterday.

    Oh, by the way, I live in Australia, so the Cryptic release dates are always skewed by timezone differences.
    General rule, when they say Thursday, to me, that means Friday.


    I just hope it goes better then the carrier mission!

    I wanted to try out all the new vehicles I acquired, just to see how the different versions changed gameplay.

    I got one queue first week of the game trying the carrier mission.

    Because the queues were never starting up, I wasn't able to put my new acquistions through their test drive.

    And I didn't really feel like spending ages in a game just watching a queue fail to pop, so I stopped playing again.
    lordgar wrote: »
    We have run several playtests over the past few days, both internally and externally, and while we've put a lot of energy into the Bleak Harbinger fight, as it stands right now, it doesn't deliver on the promise we'd envisioned. As a result we are going to delay this release. Our new target is next Thursday, March 7th.


    There you go.
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  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Thanks for listening to the feedback, guys. We were starting to wonder if anyone was out there.

    I like this communicative and listening thing, I hope it continues. In the spirit of the thing, I just bought 2000z. Let it be a lesson. Listen to us, and talk to us, and people will spend money. I can't wait to play this.
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  • fonedfoned Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Huh, looks awesome. Can't wait for the mission, I just hope it doesn't happen again
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  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Nevermind, found the problem
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