STO Interactive Communication VS CO Dev Silence

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  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You mean they took their phasers off of stun?
    Off stun? They seem to have taken Maxim 34 (from the Seventy Maxims for Maximally Effective Mercenaries) to heart: "If you're leaving scorch marks, you need to use a bigger gun."

    (Thus the sales slogan for Stroh Munitions: "Leave craters, not scorch marks.")
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  • crypticbuxom
    crypticbuxom Posts: 4,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    amosov78 wrote: »
    It'd be nice if CO had an EP who wasn't also in charge of something else at Cryptic. It was nice to hear from them again, but it really shouldn't have been something to do with Neverwinter.

    What upsets me about these interviews is that when they talk about how useful and innovative Foundry is in their "other games", they only mean STO. But they continue to say "other games" as in plural. They really only have Foundry in one other game.
  • polishlightning
    polishlightning Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Off stun? They seem to have taken Maxim 34 (from the Seventy Maxims for Maximally Effective Mercenaries) to heart: "If you're leaving scorch marks, you need to use a bigger gun."

    (Thus the sales slogan for Stroh Munitions: "Leave craters, not scorch marks.")

    You've out Star Treked me Jon, setting my engines to Ludicrous Speed and getting outta here.
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    STO is more profitable because it can be advertised using a major genre name (and it's fun to play - that would appear to be DCUO's downfall; they have the major name, but not the gameplay). Champions is a fairly big name in the tabletop supers genre - but that's not saying a lot; it's never been a large niche, and unless a new version of Marvel Super Heroes has been released, its biggest competitors are GURPS Supers and Mutants and Masterminds.

    Now be honest - how many of the names in that last paragraph were familiar to you?

    Be honest? Okay.

    All of them. Then again, I am a big RPG geek. I even know about obscure **** like the short-lived Dune RPG, Alpha Omega, and Fading Suns.
    pion01 wrote: »


    Here's the thing - people always say "superheroes can't pull like [insert bull**** here]."

    Superheroes are one of the longest running franchises in the world.

    Superheroes are internationally successful.

    Superheroes have succeeded in every medium from comic book, to book, to video game, to tv show, to animated tv show, to music, to amusement park rides, to radio drama, to movies even when they "fail." There's one quote by Singer (who I actually dislike immensely) where he makes a valid point - "That movie made $400 million! I don?t know what constitutes under-performing these days..."

    Superhero works have been critically acclaimed in almost every medium.

    Superhero movies have routinely held the spots for highest grossing movies of all time for the past 15 years.

    And it's not franchise - Crackdown, Infamous, Prototype, and who knows what else, have all been successful superhero endeavors that had no franchise to fall back on, meanwhile Superman 64.

    So yeah, Star Trek and D&D and Battle-Art (seriously, filter?) and whatever all else may have their easy built in franchises (ain't no 10 million international Battle-Art III devotees to explain that ****, but lets go with it) thus making it easier for them to profit.

    But if you can't make some money when Avengers hit's top 3 of all time and your only competition folds there is something seriously wrong with you, not your genre.

    And saying we can't pull like STO - fine, maybe we can't. Can we pull like CoX? There's no reason we can't pull like CoX.

    This, so very much this. I've pointed this out before when someone else tried claiming that superheroes are "niche."
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    pion01 wrote: »


    And CoX had absolutely no franchise, no name, no known developers, no anything besides an idea and that other thing....

    Umm...

    Oh!

    Marketing.

    Well good for CoH. Because here's the deal. At one point CO had a core of players from CoH and outside, a PnP license that people here like to act is as established and well known as several other major franchises CO has to go up against for people's money, had a now well known developer and contrary to the nonsense people spew with selective memory had marketing.

    And we're still here where we are today. So now what? What does that change about the current situation or anything that you quoted Pion? Not a blessed thing. Marketing is going to save what? If the game is as bad as the forums make it sound no amount of marketing is going to mean beans. We've had two 'major' marketing pushes, a launch, a relaunch and a pseudo-relaunch...and we're still in this situation. So really? Marketing will do exactly what?
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  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    pion01 wrote: »


    Here's the thing - people always say "superheroes can't pull like [insert bull**** here]."

    Superheroes are one of the longest running franchises in the world.

    Superheroes are internationally successful.

    Superheroes have succeeded in every medium from comic book, to book, to video game, to tv show, to animated tv show, to music, to amusement park rides, to radio drama, to movies even when they "fail." There's one quote by Singer (who I actually dislike immensely) where he makes a valid point - "That movie made $400 million! I don?t know what constitutes under-performing these days..."

    Superhero works have been critically acclaimed in almost every medium.

    Superhero movies have routinely held the spots for highest grossing movies of all time for the past 15 years.

    And it's not franchise - Crackdown, Infamous, Prototype, and who knows what else, have all been successful superhero endeavors that had no franchise to fall back on, meanwhile Superman 64.

    So yeah, Star Trek and D&D and Battle-Art (seriously, filter?) and whatever all else may have their easy built in franchises (ain't no 10 million international Battle-Art III devotees to explain that ****, but lets go with it) thus making it easier for them to profit.

    But if you can't make some money when Avengers hit's top 3 of all time and your only competition folds there is something seriously wrong with you, not your genre.

    And saying we can't pull like STO - fine, maybe we can't. Can we pull like CoX? There's no reason we can't pull like CoX.

    All of this is true if you include the caveat of some heroes as in the Marvel and DC variety mainly. Labeling as simply superheroes is misleading because it's not just superheroes. It's very specific superheros with history, merchandise, movies, books, and fanbases dating back decades.

    Who here who's a parent had their kid ask for a Witchcraft or Defender lunchbox or an Ironclad Halloween costume?

    Related to your specific examples, define successful. Prototype was so successful they lost money on the sequel and canned the franchise for now, same with Crackdown as well. InFamous also didn't take off as well as they wanted and they cancelled much of the merchandising they had planned for that title. And that's me talking about 3 of my personal favorite game franchises of this console gen. They weren't wildly successful, they were moderately successful with two of the three failing after the first attempt.
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  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You've out Star Treked me Jon, setting my engines to Ludicrous Speed and getting outta here.
    Well, actually that wasn't Star Trek, that was Schlock Mercenary - specifically, the Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries. :smile:
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  • visionstorm01
    visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    pion01 wrote: »

    Here's the thing - people always say "superheroes can't pull like [insert bull**** here]."

    Superheroes are one of the longest running franchises in the world.

    Superheroes are internationally successful.

    Superheroes have succeeded in every medium from comic book, to book, to video game, to tv show, to animated tv show, to music, to amusement park rides, to radio drama, to movies even when they "fail." There's one quote by Singer (who I actually dislike immensely) where he makes a valid point - "That movie made $400 million! I don?t know what constitutes under-performing these days..."

    Superhero works have been critically acclaimed in almost every medium.

    Superhero movies have routinely held the spots for highest grossing movies of all time for the past 15 years.

    And it's not franchise - Crackdown, Infamous, Prototype, and who knows what else, have all been successful superhero endeavors that had no franchise to fall back on, meanwhile Superman 64.

    So yeah, Star Trek and D&D and Battle-Art (seriously, filter?) and whatever all else may have their easy built in franchises (ain't no 10 million international Battle-Art III devotees to explain that ****, but lets go with it) thus making it easier for them to profit.

    But if you can't make some money when Avengers hit's top 3 of all time and your only competition folds there is something seriously wrong with you, not your genre.

    And saying we can't pull like STO - fine, maybe we can't. Can we pull like CoX? There's no reason we can't pull like CoX.

    I 100% agree. And part of the reason I 100% agree is because a little detail you don't mention there. Despite any supposed massiveness that fan base the Star Trek IP may possess, every argument they make about why superhero MMOs (not just CO in particular, but MMOs in general) can't compete with fantasy MMOs (only popular in US and Europe, no one cares about them in Asia and other parts of the world, etc.) applies to science fiction, and by extention Star Trek, as well.

    Yet why does STO succeed were CO and DCUO both fail? (IMO) Because many people (at least in the PC gaming world) seem to agree that DCUO sucks on many levels (it has some good stuff, but sucks in too many others to bother), and Cryptic (the one with arguably the superior game--in gameplay and options at least, if not in terms of content) isn't even trying with CO.

    Now I'm not saying that CO can necessarily match STO's success (STO still has the IP advantage), but I don't believe that CO's current state has anything to do with the genre. Cryptic is just letting it rot and Cryptic's reputation (which IMO is worse than average for a MMO company) isn't helping it either (and in fact letting a game like CO rot is one of the reasons for Cryptic's bad rap).

    EDIT: Hell, STO is PWE's most popular title, period. And every other PWE game is fantasy, so I'm not even sure how much that argument that MMOs must be fantasy to succeed world wide applies. It might be a factor, but it could also be that not many companies have managed to make a non-fantasy MMO that's appealing to a wide audience and tried hard enough to keep up.
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  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    CO is in maintenance mode and STO and NWO are not. Ive come to terms with the fact that we will probably never see a major update like a zone/foundry/or even an adventure pack.
    The only reason i still lurk the forums is because i have a LTS.

    I only hope that Cryptic/CO hasn't damaged the image of the customizable hero MMO genre to the point that no one will be willing to invest in another one.

    If NC soft made a COX 2 using its newly squired unreal 4 engine, i would forget about this game in a heart beat.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • visionstorm01
    visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I only hope that Cryptic/CO hasn't damaged the image of the customizable hero MMO genre to the point that no one will be willing to invest in another one.

    And unfortunately Marvel isn't helping with their "you have the 'advantage' of not having to create your own character" MMO (whoever had that bright idea :rolleyes:). If there was ever a supers MMO destined to fail...
    If NC soft made a COX 2 using its newly squired unreal 4 engine, i would forget about this game in a heart beat.

    CoX 2 would be awesome. Especially if customization is as good as CO.
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  • keikomyst
    keikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I want 25 of STO's devs shipped over here, please. :D
  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Yet why does STO succeed were CO and DCUO both fail?
    You may not like DCUO but i wouldn't call it a fail. disregarding opinions, I think its fair to say that DCUO enjoys a better dev cycle and the vibe on the forums isn't as depressing as it is here. Greg miller from IGN is constantly proclaiming his love for DCUO, when whats the last time you herd a predominant member of the press voluntarily praise CO or even mention it?

    In terms of dev support and public opinion, DCUO is way ahead of CO.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    CoX 2 would be awesome. Especially if customization is as good as CO.

    Hell, id probably even go back to dcuo if they offered a way to buy costume pieces in the cash shop instead of grinding for them.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • hocofaisan
    hocofaisan Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You may not like DCUO but i wouldn't call it a fail. disregarding opinions, I think its fair to say that DCUO enjoys a better dev cycle and the vibe on the forums isn't as depressing as it is here. Greg miller from IGN is constantly proclaiming his love for DCUO, when whats the last time you herd a predominant member of the press voluntarily praise CO or even mention it?

    In terms of dev support and public opinion, DCUO is way ahead of CO.

    I think anyone calling DCUO a failure needs to read Sony's last financial statements.

    I can't stand the game myself, but it is in no way a failure.
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  • flyingfinn
    flyingfinn Posts: 8,382 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tomato, potato.
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  • visionstorm01
    visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You may not like DCUO but i wouldn't call it a fail. disregarding opinions, I think its fair to say that DCUO enjoys a better dev cycle and the vibe on the forums isn't as depressing as it is here. Greg miller from IGN is constantly proclaiming his love for DCUO, when whats the last time you herd a predominant member of the press voluntarily praise CO or even mention it?

    In terms of dev support and public opinion, DCUO is way ahead of CO.

    Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that DCUO was a failure per se. But more talking on generalities based on the typical argument that CO's failure is based partly on the failure of the superhero genre in general to compete on the same level as fantasy in MMOs. Plus also that I don't think that DCUO was as successful as it could have been compared to bigger, fantasy MMOs partly because of those percieved limitations that people usually bring up--lack of customization options, horrible UI and controls, etc.

    I don't think its the genre that's holding it back from being even bigger than it is and its definitely not the IP, though, even there I've heard people say that it failed to be consistent enough with its own IP and by giving everyone the same generic background as part of the intro.
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  • jennymachx
    jennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    And unfortunately Marvel isn't helping with their "you have the 'advantage' of not having to create your own character" MMO (whoever had that bright idea :rolleyes:). If there was ever a supers MMO destined to fail...

    I wouldn't write off Marvel Heroes as a possible flunk just yet due to the fact that players wouldn't be allowed to create their own heroes. The gameplay is going to be very much that of the Diablo games and similiar ones and those games had no real character customization either, apart from different weapon and armor models, and every character you make is an exact clone in default appearance with another player's. Since the Diablo games are monumental successes, with "clones" having been successful on some level (see Torchlight, Divine Divinity and Titan Quest) more due to gameplay and not so much on customization, I'm pretty certain that Marvel Heroes will have a level of success as well.

    EDIT: I somehow failed to realize it earlier, but there's an appeal in getting to play as a famed Marvel superhero and I'm sure that's going to be a major draw. We even see players in CO playing clones of those characters on a consistent basis.

    Also, this is Marvel we're talking about, only one of the two giants when it comes to superhero-based entertainment mediums. The name alone is pretty signficant and has a huge impact on whether or not the game succeeds. What's more, they've already had a string of box office hit movies that help strengthen the name, even much more so than DC in my opinion since all DC really had going was the recent Batman trilogy. Champions just simply doesn't have that star power in comparison. It's hard to avoid the view that the STO staff communicates with their playerbase regularly because they are more valued than us, that is until Cryptic gives me reason to believe otherwise.

    Finally, just in case it wasn't brought up often enough, Cryptic owns the Champions license. They don't need to answer to a third-party license owner like they do for STO and Neverwinter so that's why we're at the bottom of the development priority list.
  • zahinder
    zahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I suspect that the Marvel game will draw from and involve a different gamer pool than MMOs. I think it will be highly successful, I just don't know how much it will really impact MMOs, supers or otherwise.

    I mean, personally, my interest is very small because in so many ways it misses what, to me, is the fun of MMOs. But then again, eastern MMOs are very similar to what it sounds Marvel is going for.

    Who knows.
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  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    But more talking on generalities based on the typical argument that CO's failure is based partly on the failure of the superhero genre in general to compete on the same level as fantasy in MMOs.
    Agreed.
    Super hero movies are basically dominating in the box office, even off brand hero movies like Chronicle and kick ****.


    If the hero mmos die off we can blame the developers not the genre.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • sistersilicon
    sistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I can't speak from experience about Marvel Heroes, but the previews I've seen so far aren't promising. It sounds like a superhero Diablo clone that doesn't feel heroic (as in "Hulk gets killed by three street thugs"), and isn't good at cloning Diablo.

    I have been playing the Path of Exile public beta, however, and it's gonna eat Diablo III's lunch. (Torchlight 2 already ate Diablo III's breakfast.) PoE will do more damage to Marvel Heroes than Champions or DC Universe will.
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  • pion01
    pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    All of this is true if you include the caveat of some heroes as in the Marvel and DC variety mainly. Labeling as simply superheroes is misleading because it's not just superheroes. It's very specific superheros with history, merchandise, movies, books, and fanbases dating back decades.

    Who here who's a parent had their kid ask for a Witchcraft or Defender lunchbox or an Ironclad Halloween costume?

    Related to your specific examples, define successful. Prototype was so successful they lost money on the sequel and canned the franchise for now, same with Crackdown as well. InFamous also didn't take off as well as they wanted and they cancelled much of the merchandising they had planned for that title. And that's me talking about 3 of my personal favorite game franchises of this console gen. They weren't wildly successful, they were moderately successful with two of the three failing after the first attempt.

    True, and mostly agreed, but my point was more that the argument that superheroes are too niche doesn't really hold up. CoX was still successful despite having no franchise to speak of, Watchmen did pretty well all things considered, and while technically a DC book, it's not really part of the typical DC franchises. Same with Kick ****, Wanted (sort of), Hancock, The Incredibles, Unbreakable (also sort of), etc. Have Marvel and DC flooded the market? Sure, but others have found their place too.

    Same with games. Those did reasonably well in their first outing, but I think everyone wants to be the next GTA at this point, and from what I hear the sequels didn't really get much better than the originals. Why the sequels failed, I don't know, but my point is that a no-name franchise isn't automatically destined to failure.

    As for my point about marketing, if we had all that I honestly don't recall seeing any of it. Maybe I was disconnected from all those avenues or something. Anyway, marketing today wouldn't do much, but there were times recently when a little push could have gone a long way. Sure the game suffers in some places, but new players they may have not seen those things immediately, and maybe some would have fallen in love with CO like the rest of us have. And for all our relaunches the most we got was a couple of vague interviews with Massively, and like 2 3 minute videos on our own site; no banners, no ads, nobody showing up to Cons...
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    pion01 wrote: »

    Same with games. Those did reasonably well in their first outing, but I think everyone wants to be the next GTA at this point, and from what I hear the sequels didn't really get much better than the originals. Why the sequels failed, I don't know, but my point is that a no-name franchise isn't automatically destined to failure.

    Indeed. After all, didn't every franchise start out as a no-name at the start?
  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If NC soft made a COX 2 using its newly squired unreal 4 engine, i would forget about this game in a heart beat.

    I wouldn't. And I loved the crap out of CoH.
    1. No Paragon Studios. These people ate, drank, slept and LIVED FOR CoH. NCSoft would have a Korean team (because they simply have zero faith in their US teams) building an anime-esque grind-fest that basically ignored everything that went before and was designed to suck maximum cash out of you for any and every benefit.
    2. Like PWE, NCSoft just doesn't "get" the superhero genre. Mainly it's cultural differences. But they simply haven't got a clue. If they did, they'd be flogging for development instead of shutting things down (CoH) or abandoning properties (CO).
    3. No CoH community. Sorry, but this is the BIG deal-breaker. NCSoft killed any and all goodwill with the CoH community with the summary closure of CoH. Had they done it with a CoH2 on the horizon, maybe it'd have gone down better. But as it is now, NCSoft couldn't sell CoH oxygen cannisters to a suffocating CoH fan.
    4. The Unreal engine would lock out a lot of players with more modest machines. One of the nice things about CoH was that it ran on even fairly marginal machines. Granted, it didn't have all the "new sexy" that newer games had, but for an 8 year old game, it wasn't bad at all. You could even play it on a relatively cheapo laptop. And a lot of the former players aren't going to drop a couple thousand on a gear refresh just for "The New Sexy".

    So, where we are now.

    Of the three Superhero properties available in 2012, here's where we are now:
    1. Closed by congenital idiots.
    2. A big, empty open world with a ridiculously ****-tastic UI.
    3. A project on life support with bugs galore, marginal UI, hostile teaming mechanisms, lacking in content, half-finished (and being nice ascribing some of them as "half" finished) systems all over the place, and loads of completely squandered promise as the publisher tries to shill pointless trinkets at you.

    As of right now I'm very VERY close to simply packing it in and ceasing my online gaming altogether.
  • crypticbuxom
    crypticbuxom Posts: 4,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If the hero mmos die off we can blame the developers not the genre.

    This is the best conclusion we got out of this thread and I'm glad for it. I couldn't agree with this more.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Indeed. After all, didn't every franchise start out as a no-name at the start?

    Yes and no in this case. There's aslo the issue with labeling everything that has super powers as a superhero game to try to make a point when they aren't superhero games.

    Prototype started as a new IP marketed as the spiritual successor to Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction as it came from the same development studio, has a lot of the same gameplay structure and has a lot of the same animations and moves present in the game. That was enough for the first game to do OK and didn't help the second game stand. Note: Alex Mercer is not a hero and neither is Sergeant Heller for anyone that plays these two games. They both kill innocent people nearly as indiscriminately as their targets in the game. Even if you RP it and avoid killing civilians several of the military targets are clueless soldiers following orders...and you eat them anyway.

    Crackdown started as a new IP marketed as being a superpowered open world game (note: super...powered. The characters aren't superheros they're super cops and/or mercs depending on your interpretation of the organization they work for...the organization is a syndicate plotting world domination and you blindly follow their orders in both games and move the organization closer to its goal) from the creative mind behind GTA. The GTA association and being bundled with the Halo 3 Beta was enough to move units of the first game, didn't save the second game.

    inFamous was a new IP marketed as a superhero open world from the studio behind the very successful and beloved Sly Cooper series. This one actually fared better than the other two...perhaps because it's the only one that actually a superhero game or perhaps there are other factors.
    pion01 wrote: »
    True, and mostly agreed, but my point was more that the argument that superheroes are too niche doesn't really hold up

    Who's making that argument? Since you quoted me, I'll assume you're talking about me. I'm not making the argument superheros are too niche to hold up and be successful. I am however making the argument that unknown superheros are too niche to hold up to something with the fan power of Star Trek. People seem to expect CO to stand on equal footing with STO because they seem to think superheros, regardless of the name of the heros, are as popular with other people as they are with them(us) and therefore "if you build it they will come" applies and there are equal tons of money to be made. Superheros aren't that popular. Superman, Batman, X-men and Avengers are.

    People keep implying "well CoH did it". If this is true, it didn't.

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  • markfalcone
    markfalcone Posts: 4
    edited February 2013
    The STO devs seems to be working and discussing things to enhance gameplay through an RP perspective discussed here.

    It seems CO customers are getting further and further behind when it comes to being involved with interacting with their devs. When STO communication is active enough to interact with their customers like this beyond activity reports and updates, its a wonder why the CO side should have any problems with communication at all. Why is it so much harder for Champions to have any communication?

    Maybe the entire of Cryptic's staff should work on all their games at once and share work policies and innovation rather than cut Champions off.

    Discuss your thoughts on this and be sure to check the link in the news update about what they discussed here. Its pretty much a bunch of stuff that the players have been wanting and offering as suggestions freely, even when Cryptic isn't begging for ideas.

    First, I would like to point out that any corporation worth anything is going to separate out projects into different areas, meaning the devs might borrow from one game to the next but are not going to work on two games at once if they can help it. Why? Because it cuts down on confusion. Simple.

    Second, I've noticed a huge difference between how both games are worked on and talked about. Even STO's forums are better formatted compared to CO. STO is organized not unlike what would be expected from a Starfleet operation, and CO is disorganized not unlike a bunch of young, geeky comic book fans living in mom's basement. It is as much a genre problem as anything else.

    Which brings us to another issue. Mega-fans of both are also more likely to fall into this genre personality issue. Is it the devs on STO that make or break the evolution and creation in the game or the fans who send detailed, constructive feedback? Is it the devs on CO that make or break CO or the fans that may or may not be giving constructive feedback? And the predominant attitude, whether it be from he devs or the fans, overrides everything else like a tidal flow. As a friend once put it, it's hard to be a happy greeter in a chain-gang feeling Walmart.
  • crypticbuxom
    crypticbuxom Posts: 4,439 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Which brings us to another issue. Mega-fans of both are also more likely to fall into this genre personality issue. Is it the devs on STO that make or break the evolution and creation in the game or the fans who send detailed, constructive feedback? Is it the devs on CO that make or break CO or the fans that may or may not be giving constructive feedback? And the predominant attitude, whether it be from he devs or the fans, overrides everything else like a tidal flow.

    I think your hypothetical questions feel a bit biased toward CO fans being unable to give constructive feedback while STO fans always give constructive feedback.

    But the state of the CO community is mostly a result of punishing players who do stand out and say that the devs are wrong with their decisions supported by facts and proof.

    I don't know how STO does things but from what I see the devs respond to feedback with results promptly and efficiently. At least more so than CO.

    However, the latest announcement about the Leviathan event being delayed as a response to player feedback is a monumental step in the right direction.

    But one that had to be fought and scratched for and had to take over the forums to get accomplished.

    But could have been easily avoided if CO's dev response was up to STO's minimum standards.
  • markfalcone
    markfalcone Posts: 4
    edited February 2013
    I think your hypothetical questions feel a bit biased toward CO fans being unable to give constructive feedback while STO fans always give constructive feedback.

    QUOTE]

    More like less able (not unable) to give organized feedback. I skate that line. I have a very logical brain and a highly disorganized desk. My feedback comes out as stream of thought followed by me editing what I write. Does it come out coherent? Most of the time... no. So don't take this description personally. It's what I see.
  • jennymachx
    jennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    First, I would like to point out that any corporation worth anything is going to separate out projects into different areas, meaning the devs might borrow from one game to the next but are not going to work on two games at once if they can help it. Why? Because it cuts down on confusion. Simple.

    So the players from that one game who suffer when the devs responsible for its development gets siphoned to another game are supposed to be okay with this? Are they expected to have a stiff upper-lip and put up with their game being hugely neglected for the sake of the players from the other game?
    Second, I've noticed a huge difference between how both games are worked on and talked about. Even STO's forums are better formatted compared to CO. STO is organized not unlike what would be expected from a Starfleet operation, and CO is disorganized not unlike a bunch of young, geeky comic book fans living in mom's basement. It is as much a genre problem as anything else.

    Yeaaah..I'm not sure I'm okay with that stereotyping you're using when it comes the CO playerbase.
    Which brings us to another issue. Mega-fans of both are also more likely to fall into this genre personality issue. Is it the devs on STO that make or break the evolution and creation in the game or the fans who send detailed, constructive feedback? Is it the devs on CO that make or break CO or the fans that may or may not be giving constructive feedback? And the predominant attitude, whether it be from he devs or the fans, overrides everything else like a tidal flow. As a friend once put it, it's hard to be a happy greeter in a chain-gang feeling Walmart.

    Constructive feedback has always been given for the past three years, at least from what I've seen from the forums during that period.

    You're more likely to see a higher level of negative feedback and backlash around here compared to that in the STO forums for some really good reasons.
  • pion01
    pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Who's making that argument?

    I wasn't arguing with you, I was responding to rexcelestis's comment that Star Trek has a massive audience to pull from and the general belief that superheroes can't do similar. My quoting you was about my belief that a franchise isn't really necessary to be successful, and that several others have done it to some success.
    People keep implying "well CoH did it". If this is true, it didn't.

    "I see what it's done to Star Trek Online and, believe it or not, 'that game is much bigger than City of Heroes ever was at its peak!"

    Taking Jack at his word requires 1) taking Jack at his word, and 2) believing that Jack would have insight to how CoX performed after he had left and everyone claims it improved. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying believing it from him requires some faith. But even assuming he's right, I'm not talking about beating STO, I'm just talking about taking advantage of periphery audiences and building a complete game and then pushing said game rather than simply relying on a franchise, and STO doing better than CoX doesn't suddenly make CoX a failure.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    pion01 wrote: »
    Taking Jack at his word requires 1) taking Jack at his word,

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  • zahinder
    zahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Um, constructive feedback on STO forums?

    Ha ha ha!

    Yeah, it's not... that different. There was a recent game change that resulted in massive 290 page thread mostly filled with people staying just this side of jumping up dev hinies like blood raged wolverines.

    KDF players are mostly embittered folks who have absolutely no trust in devs, and regularly have tense threads with fed players who call them whiny.

    There are three year old bugs complained about, a lot of complaints about last season and the grind ruining STO, complaints about game balance having been dismantled, lockboxes, etc.

    The big difference between STO and CO is that more stuff happens in STO, and there are more threads.

    But 'better'? I'm no sure about that.
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  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    ...Cryptic would have a Korean team (because they simply have zero faith in their US teams)...
    Point of order. Cryptic doesn't have a Korean team. Cryptic Studios is not a multinational corporation; they have a building in Los Gatos, CA, where their programmers work. (Incidentally, if anyone out there has 2+ years experience with C+ and lives in the area, they're hiring multiple programmers...)
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  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    zahinder wrote: »
    Yeah, it's not... that different. There was a recent game change that resulted in massive 290 page thread mostly filled with people staying just this side of jumping up dev hinies like blood raged wolverines.

    Was that the Fleet marks and foundry change?
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  • zahinder
    zahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Was that the Fleet marks and foundry change?

    More or less. ;)

    That was the original topic, but a lot of the venom was connected to a lot of other stuff.
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  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Point of order. Cryptic doesn't have a Korean team. Cryptic Studios is not a multinational corporation; they have a building in Los Gatos, CA, where their programmers work. (Incidentally, if anyone out there has 2+ years experience with C+ and lives in the area, they're hiring multiple programmers...)



    My bad. Typo. Should have said "NCSoft".
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Yes and no in this case. There's aslo the issue with labeling everything that has super powers as a superhero game to try to make a point when they aren't superhero games.

    Prototype started as a new IP marketed as the spiritual successor to Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction as it came from the same development studio, has a lot of the same gameplay structure and has a lot of the same animations and moves present in the game. That was enough for the first game to do OK and didn't help the second game stand. Note: Alex Mercer is not a hero and neither is Sergeant Heller for anyone that plays these two games. They both kill innocent people nearly as indiscriminately as their targets in the game. Even if you RP it and avoid killing civilians several of the military targets are clueless soldiers following orders...and you eat them anyway.

    Crackdown started as a new IP marketed as being a superpowered open world game (note: super...powered. The characters aren't superheros they're super cops and/or mercs depending on your interpretation of the organization they work for...the organization is a syndicate plotting world domination and you blindly follow their orders in both games and move the organization closer to its goal) from the creative mind behind GTA. The GTA association and being bundled with the Halo 3 Beta was enough to move units of the first game, didn't save the second game.

    inFamous was a new IP marketed as a superhero open world from the studio behind the very successful and beloved Sly Cooper series. This one actually fared better than the other two...perhaps because it's the only one that actually a superhero game or perhaps there are other factors.

    I'm not seeing the "no" here. Being marketed as "a spiritual successor to the Hulk" does not make a franchise any less a no-name. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to convey... or maybe you're not understanding what I was trying to convey. To take one of your examples from here:
    Who's making that argument? Since you quoted me, I'll assume you're talking about me. I'm not making the argument superheros are too niche to hold up and be successful. I am however making the argument that unknown superheros are too niche to hold up to something with the fan power of Star Trek. People seem to expect CO to stand on equal footing with STO because they seem to think superheros, regardless of the name of the heros, are as popular with other people as they are with them(us) and therefore "if you build it they will come" applies and there are equal tons of money to be made. Superheros aren't that popular. Superman, Batman, X-men and Avengers are.

    Did X-Men start as an instant success? Did everyone instantly know who the X-Men were when The X-Men #1 came out because it was the X-Men?

    No.

    In fact the X-Men got off on a very rough start. Sales were mediocre, it meandered along, and eventually it just simply became a reprint title. The X-Men franchise didn't take off until Giant-Sized X-Men #1.

    Even the great Star Trek had a rough beginning: mediocre ratings, threatened to be cancelled after its second season, then cancelled ultimately after its third. All franchises start as small, no-name properties. It's only through striving to become the best that they become the major successes that they are.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I'm not seeing the "no" here.

    The "no" aspect is that they were piggy backed off of established franchises to boost their popularity rather than being their own franchises working from the ground up on their own merits alone like some other new IPs have done and succeeded at. When this tactic no longer worked (the second iteration) they stalled out or failed. Prototype for example was originally supposed to be another Hulk game. Licensing got in the way and along came a new IP born in a similar fashion to how Champions Online was originally supposed to be a Marvel MMO with the exception that Champions is also an established license of its own.
    All franchises start as small, no-name properties. It's only through striving to become the best that they become the major successes that they are.

    That's true and not something I'm debating. My point is about what new franchises are going up against today. Yes, X-Men once started out somewhere...and competed against...

    Now fast forward to today. If someone wants a super powered team of people who were born with abilities and considered outside of mainstream society they'd have to compete against parallels to the X-men.

    Same thing with CoH. No competition in that sub-genre at the time and less MMO competition. Contrast that with CO which must compete with DCUO and whatever Marvel cooks up along with the unbelievable number of other MMO offerings available now.
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  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    That's not really a "no" as they were still small, no-name properties.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    That's not really a "no" as they were still small, no-name properties.

    If you choose to not see the difference between a small, no name property with nothing to piggy back off of and a small, no-name property with tremendous backing to piggy back off then there's no other way for me to simply point of that type of difference.
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  • chaoswolf820
    chaoswolf820 Posts: 734 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Same thing with CoH. No competition in that sub-genre at the time and less MMO competition. Contrast that with CO which must compete with DCUO and whatever Marvel cooks up along with the unbelievable number of other MMO offerings available now.

    CO, however, has seniority over DCUO and Marvel's Diablo-clone. It was here before them, it's not something following after they did. If anything, they jumped on our bandwagon. (well, on COH's bandwagon, but they're a moot point now.)
  • pion01
    pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Well, to me the comparison was CoX as a no-name brand with no pre-existing franchise, to MUO/MUA/Hulk whatever/DCUO/JLHeroes etc which have pre-existing franchises in comics and fookinevurthingelse.
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If you choose to not see the difference between a small, no name property with nothing to piggy back off of and a small, no-name property with tremendous backing to piggy back off then there's no other way for me to simply point of that type of difference.


    Piggy-backing doesn't instantly give you a "name." You still have to prove yourself either way. Considering that the "piggy-backed" games slumped off like they did pretty much proves this point.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Piggy-backing doesn't instantly give you a "name." You still have to prove yourself either way. Considering that the "piggy-backed" games slumped off like they did pretty much proves this point.

    Piggy backing does give you a name. Crackdown wouldn't have sold nearly as well if it 1) didn't come bundled with Halo 3 and 2) wasn't openly billed as an open world over the top game made by the same guy that made Grand Theft Auto.

    As to it fading proving the point, it does not because for every Prototype there is an inFamous, an Assassin's Creed, etc. that piggy backed off of something and thrived.

    In other words piggy backing isn't the end all be all of success but it does matter and can't be a point to be overlooked and summarily dismissed.
    CO, however, has seniority over DCUO and Marvel's Diablo-clone. It was here before them, it's not something following after they did. If anything, they jumped on our bandwagon. (well, on COH's bandwagon, but they're a moot point now.)

    How does this relate to what you quoted?
    pion01 wrote: »
    Well, to me the comparison was CoX as a no-name brand with no pre-existing franchise, to MUO/MUA/Hulk whatever/DCUO/JLHeroes etc which have pre-existing franchises in comics and fookinevurthingelse.

    You think advertising and marketing was the key difference? In other words, assuming you had to pinpoint one single thing as the most important what would that be it?
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  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Piggy backing does give you a name. Crackdown wouldn't have sold nearly as well if it 1) didn't come bundled with Halo 3 and 2) wasn't openly billed as an open world over the top game made by the same guy that made Grand Theft Auto.

    As to it fading proving the point, it does not because for every Prototype there is an inFamous, an Assassin's Creed, etc. that piggy backed off of something and thrived.

    In other words piggy backing isn't the end all be all of success but it does matter and can't be a point to be overlooked and summarily dismissed.

    No, piggy-backing is just that, piggy-backing. You don't get your "name" until you prove yourself. For example, Crackdown isn't a Halo game, it's Crackdown, and so on and so forth.
  • kenpojujitsu3
    kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    No, piggy-backing is just that, piggy-backing. You don't get your "name" until you prove yourself. For example, Crackdown isn't a Halo game, it's Crackdown, and so on and so forth.

    Fine, we'll agree to disagree on name recognition and the effects thereof.
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  • pion01
    pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You think advertising and marketing was the key difference? In other words, assuming you had to pinpoint one single thing as the most important what would that be it?

    Hmm....

    That's a good question actually. Can I cop out and say "publicity?" As in, good (marketing, ads, banners, inserts, commercials etc) and bad (poor reviews based on launch day decisions, comparisons to CoX, and developing a bad reputation) at the same time?

    Cuz if so, I'll say "Publicity."



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  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You think advertising and marketing was the key difference? In other words, assuming you had to pinpoint one single thing as the most important what would that be it?

    Ill take a stab.
    Honestly, i don't think a lack of advertising or lack of name recognition are the root cause of COs current state.

    If i had to sum it up, i would say that being in a continual state of catch-up has stagnated the groath of the game beyond repair. I see this catch-up pattern in several dimensions of the games life cycle.

    1. The state of Cryptic at the games inception:
    A. Loosing Microsoft and Marvel hurt the funding that would have been needed to properly launch CO. Any of you who who were around at beta will remember that the prevailing sentiment was the game wasn't ready for release. Then there was the day one patch. Both of these left a bat taste in players mouth witch is hard to reverse. "Hell hath no furry like a gamer scorned"

    Cryptic would spend years and most of its CO updates trying to recover and turning the game into "Revamp Online". They never caught up.

    B. The move from NC soft meant letting go of the original team that developed COX and the subtle expertise that came with it. This is why CO surpassed COX in the obvious things like customization but lagged behind in other ways.

    Similar to the above, Many mistakes were made by a new and inexperienced dev team leading to many systems being weak and needing revamps. The dev team is more experienced now, but that expertise is being used to make sure NWO doesn't suffer the same fate of CO. Without them, CO can never catch up.

    2.The state of the industry and the economy:
    A. CO began its development and was released rite around the time the global economic crisis happened. From then on, disposable income went from being artificially high to drastically lower. Money for mmo subs wasn't just laying around like it was before hand. I believe this sped up the industry's move to FTP.

    The whole economy is still trying to catch up. Money has always been a problem for CO and it probably would have needed a economic boom to help recover, it got the opposite.

    B. The FTP business model lends it self (especially in COs case) to adding updates that can be monetized and thus give imitate return on investment. COX however, enjoyed the last scrap of the prosperity that the housing bubble provided and the sub business model allows devs to be more flexible in how they update the game.

    The FTP model deprioritized more general "fun" systemic updates like zones, ugc, story driven content, and end game. Direct ROI now dictates updates instead of creativity or a desire to push the envelope. This is why games like CO cant catch up to games like WOW/COX that enjoyed years of creativity fueled updates without the need to design updates around nickle & dimeing players.

    If NWO had been Cryptics first post NC soft mmo and CO was in development now, how different would both games be?

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  • crypticarmsman
    crypticarmsman Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    In the next 'Ask Cryptic' or whatever STO calls it. A bunch of people should ask if CO still has Devs or why we don't get any 'state of the game' posts, etc.

    1) Dstahl would probably not answer such a question as it doesn't relate to STO (and look at any STO "Ask Cryptic" Thread when they ask for questions. They get a ton of them and pick and chose the ones that get answers.)

    2) Even if he did answer it, I have a feelingt the answer would be: "I'm the Executive Producer for Star Trek Online. I don't really have any info on what the CO EP or his team are doing with regards to CO."

    The person we need info from is CO's Executive Producer (and honestly, I'm not even sure who that is atm as they've gone through quite a few over the life of this MMO. If he can't find time to say something to the CO playerbase; that in itself probably says something about the current state of CO.:frown:
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  • chaoswolf820
    chaoswolf820 Posts: 734 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ill take a stab.
    Honestly, i don't think a lack of advertising or lack of name recognition are the root cause of COs current state.

    If i had to sum it up, i would say that being in a continual state of catch-up has stagnated the groath of the game beyond repair. I see this catch-up pattern in several dimensions of the games life cycle.

    (SNIP)

    If NWO had been Cryptics first post NC soft mmo and CO was in development now, how different would both games be?

    A lot of food for thought, there.