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Revitalize Melee
gamehobo
Posts: 1,970 Arc User
Players fought REALLY hard to give melee the advantages it had before "On Alert". These advantages were innate (cost the build nothing over ranged players).
All these gains have seemingly been erased. To make things worse.. it sounds like the content being developed is giving more advantages to ranged players.
IF this is identified as a problem then does it merit being addressed?
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IF the problem is great enough to merit being addressed can anyone brainstorm solutions in the modern game?
1) Gift every Melee player a vehicle (he said sardonically)?
2) Increase Damage on all Melee Damage
4) Increase movement speed when using melee powers?
5) Bring back innate crowd control?
6) Add movement penalty when using ranged attacks?
I'm trying to be constructive even as a 3rd party non-player. So I ask Q1 Is melee combat substandard to ranged combat? Q2 Is the iniquity enough to merit change? Q3 What are your ideas to rebalance melee?
All these gains have seemingly been erased. To make things worse.. it sounds like the content being developed is giving more advantages to ranged players.
IF this is identified as a problem then does it merit being addressed?
- -
IF the problem is great enough to merit being addressed can anyone brainstorm solutions in the modern game?
1) Gift every Melee player a vehicle (he said sardonically)?
2) Increase Damage on all Melee Damage
3) Nerf Ranged powers (including Concentration)?Bill Roper wrote:When looking to balance ranged and melee attacks, I usually start at a 1.5 to 1 damage ratio in favor of the melee character and start playing against identical mobs or PvP.
4) Increase movement speed when using melee powers?
5) Bring back innate crowd control?
6) Add movement penalty when using ranged attacks?
I'm trying to be constructive even as a 3rd party non-player. So I ask Q1 Is melee combat substandard to ranged combat? Q2 Is the iniquity enough to merit change? Q3 What are your ideas to rebalance melee?
Post edited by gamehobo on
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From a logical point of view it does make sense that melee should have a small advantage over ranged in damage. When you're having to chase down a target just so can use your powers, it usually means your dps is gonna drop some. Meanwhile the ranged can stand from a distance and keep dps going constant. Because of that simple reason it's illogical to have ranged on even ground with (or even better than) melee in damage.
Now for the problem. Damage is too high in this game. That goes for both melee and ranged. Asking for a melee damage buff would be overkill, whereas asking for a nerf to ranged is just not my style. I don't want to ask for a nerf that would affect several players' builds. So when it comes down to who needs a damage buff/nerf, I'm going to stay out of that argument. Although it's too late to suggest big changes imho, I've always thought ranged powers should behave like TGM's Close the Gap: more damage upfront and less damage from a distance. Not just in this game, but any game with ranged/melee. I'm not suggesting they implement such a change. It's just too bad they didn't think of it from the get go.
As for crowd control, yes, it needs a buff, but not so it favors one or the other (ranged or melee). I do think it's only right ranged has a way to keep melee off of them, whereas melee should have an opportunity to keep a ranged nearby once in awhile. I do think ranged is penalized less with crowd control being weak, like it is now, simply because it's easier to peel oneself from a melee more now than ever. Strong crowd control for a melee means more opportunities to close the gap and be able to unload damage. Ranged on the other hand can unload damage with or without the use of crowd control.
I have absolutely no idea why you bothered to link that Dev Diary, as only the old Brawler role has been changed (even then, the only loss was the Snare). Everything else in that post is still the same.
The old Avenger role really sucked. Melee had a huge advantage back then, with Ranged getting their HP, healing, and CC resist + strength nerfed. Right now the only advantage that Ranged gets from their Role is 20% Energy Building Strength, which is whoopty doo. Both are on even ground now, assuming you know how to make good builds.
Then no one would play Ranged. I'm sorry, but that's one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in a long time. If anything, Ranged powers should deal bonus damage the further away you are, because well... they're Ranged powers. Not Melee powers.
The only reason TGM has this adv. is because its damage used to be horrible, and it gave Bullet Beatdown users somewhat more of a reason to take it besides the stack of Enrage that it used to give, which gave BB's Not Without Incident adv. a 100% chance to deal AoE damage. Now NWI works with Concentration as well, and TGM gives Concentration instead of Enrage. And still... CtG is only a 10% increase over R3, so it's really moot anyway.
They do, it's called a Lunge. And they all Snare the target, for 16 seconds, which is what the old Brawler role did before. 3 sec cooldown is nothing, and even less if you have any CDR or INT.
So no, I don't think that any changes should be made to Melee or Ranged.
My 40s: Munitions, Electricity, TK Blades, Gadgeteering DPS
Other toons: Fire, Heavy Weapons Tank, Dual Blades, Fightning Claws, AoRP Support, Bestial Supernatural, Archery,
TK Ranged, Infernal Tank, Ice DPS, Laser Sword, Heavy Weapons DPS
On the other hand, old powers get left by the wayside, especially if they're linked to free ATs. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Telepathy is better than say, Dual Blades, just because it's a ranged set.
Trouble is, new powers tend to be ranged because they're cheaper to do. It's a lot cheaper to animate or even recycle a generic hand blast or throw, then add a projectile like a spinny blade or grenade or glowy ball, than it is to motion capture and animate a kung fu Shadowless Kick. But look at the one new melee power that did get added: Shadow Strike. It ended up being plenty strong. Pity it isn't spammable
Of course, some older powers do get buffed along the way, like 2GM and Ice Blast. But that seems to be the exception rather than the norm. Their respective sets are still left with gaping holes in other areas, like the lack of good Munitions AoEs and the lack of an Ice Energy Unlock.
The best example is the Glacier at. It used to be perfectly balanced
along with the other archetypes. Right now, the people playing this
overpowered at started acting like they are pro's... if i show them this
they are unable to realize how broken their toons are and that the "wins"
they achieve in duels are invalid.
-> (+100% ice cage etc. is what makes it OP as, hell due to no DR)
Release Notes, November 9
Ice
-Ice Blast: Damage increased by 10%, Energy Cost reduced by 10%
-Ice Cage: Periodic Damage of cages increased by 100%.
-Ice Cage: This power now scales with you as you get stronger.
http://co.perfectworld.com/news/?tag=co-patch-notes&paged=2
If a developer reads this, i/we demand a review of said ice cage skill asap.
You do realize that I was justifying that melee/ranged should both continue to have cc, not that melee was lacking it.
That one I admit I didn't explain well. I'm not suggesting ranged damage be neutered next to nothing from a distance. What I am suggesting is that ranged be on par with melee damage when used up close. I really don't see how it's a dumb idea when a blast attack is more dangerous up close than far away. Isn't that more realistic?
In the new Mortal Kombat, if you lack a teleport and fast projectile, you're at a great disadvantage against projectile characters. In Street Fighter, projectile spammers versus characters without projectiles are also at a disadvantage. Same for BlazBlue's Nu-13, which obliterated the competition with the ranged spam in the first game.
It's a problem in plenty of games, and I don't see Cryptic finding a solution. I think you can't move and attack in Neverwinter, so that's one way to close the gap. But it's a change unlikely to happen (or fit) CO.
Real Soviet Damage PRIMUS Page | Soviet Might Build | Artwork of my Characters | I wrote a book called "The Ring of Void"
If anything needs a buff its those who develop complex and diverse builds using a vast array of tools from many sets, increasing synergetic combos between them, and making those who over focus feel as gimp as possible. Just like diminishing returns on stats, there should be as there is a diminishing return on character effectiveness when you go all in on a given fighting style.
Bruce lee couldnt beat a guy with a gun who had as much as 10 feet on him, unless he was carrying throwing darts.
Which btw is a suggestion. How about a short duration disarm debuff for ranged DPS, because just as I said above being all or nothing is bad and deserves to be punished. So a simple short duration debuff similar to NTTG that instead stops the use of ranged attacks, so it forces heroes to close the gap at times. The lizard crushing spidey's web shooters as an extreme example. spidey webbing up the punishers guns maybe the better one.
Why should people wanting to play a melee toon using most of the powers from the set be punished? That is just dumb. My heavy weapons freeform uses nothing but heavy weapon attacks. Hell I'd play a straight up Devastator if it had heals and a good active defense power.
I was one of the players who fought VERY hard for Melee to get the INNATE buffs it had. I also fought to keep the crowd control aspect as INNATE as soon as they tried to move them to specializations.
I'm not playing the game. When I was there was very few endgame melee DPS builds around. This was extensively present in PvP post On Alert. But Even MORE-SO in PvE when they released Gravitar and UNTIL carrier mission.. both of which make Melee DPS toons suck.
The only thing that you want brought back (because everything else is still there) is the Snare on every single target melee attack. Which isn't needed. Because every Lunge applies a Snare. A Snare isn't a Root. Or a Paralyze. Or a Stun. It doesn't apply the CC resist debuff. And the base duration is 16 seconds anyway.
Sure it sucks to be Melee in Gravitar, but it also sucks to be Ranged because Gravitar sucks in general. It's also a poor excuse for endgame content to begin with. Same with UNTIL Sky Carrier. IMO vehicles are completely stupid. Maybe if either of those dropped Legion gear, I'd care about them.
My 40s: Munitions, Electricity, TK Blades, Gadgeteering DPS
Other toons: Fire, Heavy Weapons Tank, Dual Blades, Fightning Claws, AoRP Support, Bestial Supernatural, Archery,
TK Ranged, Infernal Tank, Ice DPS, Laser Sword, Heavy Weapons DPS
Its too easy to ignore/resist/break movement hindering abilities. Ascension being immune to Travel Power Cancel is just idiotic addition to the 'Screw melee' pile of wrong.
Why give us snares when specialisations and more give us SPEED BONUSES WHEN SNARES/ROOTS ARE TRYING TO BE APPLIED. Thats just rewarding ranged people like a banker taking a bonus.
I personally get more DPS out of Melee. But that doesnt mean jack if players dont stand still...which isnt going to happen.
The Secret World utilize a very good assistance tool for this. You can only walk backwards at 50% speed and sideways at 75%. Something so simple...WORKS for the majority of the time.
Which is what I stated earlier and agree with. Crowd control taking a nosedive has a bigger impact on melee than ranged. Weak CC jeopardizes melee's chance to actually close the gap and have adequate time to damage someone, whereas weak CC for a ranged means less time to peel someone off them and widen the gap. A good ranged player can still work around having poor CC and being effective with their damage, unlike melee.