Defiance or Regeneration

bluecenturion · February 2013

I am making a Might based Tank type. CON/STR/REC, and was wondering if Defiant or Regeneration would make for a flat out tougher tank. Any thoughts, data?

mysticfloater · February 2013

Between Defiance and Regen, either one can work.

Defiance is better if you are concerned about taking one giant shot of damage that takes you from a full health bar to an empty health bar. Defiance gives you fantastic defense however if you are going to use it then you will need healing. Ideally a lot of healing. If you are in a group with a dedicated healer who keeps you topped up then defiance is definitely the way to go. Alternatively if you are willing to invest in a bunch of self healing powers and you have the energy to power them then defiance is a good choice.

I have a few regen tanks and I can comfortably say that there is very little they cannot do in the game as far as tanking is concerned. My best can solo Gravitar for a while but if I make a mistake my ability to heal will not keep up with the damage output. Also, regen makes going through the game solo so easy.

Either can work for you. Why not try both for a few levels before deciding?

theravenforce · February 2013

I guess when combining it with the commonly refered to as staple mechanics of dodge and avoidance either one can be very useful.

I know that Dodge/Defiance works well, the same with Regen. To play it safe, I'd combine healing ability with high damage resistance and dodge/avoid so Defiance. But Regen is equally good but seems to not measure up in higher level content.

l1ghtstar · February 2013

Lol, at first I thought you mightbe perhaps playing a joke in light of some heated debates. Specifically the Defiance as Ultimate vs Regenration

As what has been mentioned, Defiance performs well (not to say Regen doesn't). In my personal experience in testing, I feel that it is way too easy in this game to duplicate Regenration's healing, insuch way that you can have a 'regenerating' Defiance tank.

I tend to dislike defensive passives (heck, I don't even have one in my guide collection), so don't quote me as an expert in this topic. There's many ways to build super sturdy toons wihtout ever resorting to defensive passives.

jennymachx · February 2013

I've never liked Regeneration due to the fact that it's not actual damage mitigation, but a constant heal-over-time. You still take the full damage of whatever attacks made against you. However that's not to say that Regeneration won't work with the proper build.

Anyway, as long as you plan on focusing on getting your dodge / avoidance as high as possible with mods / gear / specs (honestly, dodge is so good since the on-alert pass that you have to be bonkers not to), then either Regen or Defiance will work. I'm in preference of Defiance not only because of the decent damage resistance it gives (as long as you can get your Con to above 300 for each stack to give 18% resist) but also the energy returns. It's very easy to maintain the full six stacks at all times as well.

kelbornx · February 2013

If you slot Dodge/Avoid gear, take Energy Shield (Laser Knight) and build some tanky Specs (Constitution, Protector, Sentry) you can build up a high amount of mitigation. Nowhere near as much if you had taken Defiance/Invuln, but still good enough for most content.

My personal preference for Tanks is Invuln with an Offensive Form (Form of the Tempest, Concentration, Enrage). Defiance is great, but Invuln also cuts flat damage off of attacks, allowing you to basically ignore smaller damage (which can add up over time). A Defiance or Regen build can remedy this by taking Inertial Dampening Field, but then you won't be able to take an offensive Form and will lose potential threat generation.

Because of how Damage Resistance is calculated into Damage Reduction (see the Defensive Passives sitcky), Invuln doesn't fall far behind Defiance, while giving you more options for you Form power.

ayonachan · February 2013

wrote:

Funny thing is, a rank 3 invulnerability using the same stats as the above yields

I have never tried mega-stacking con since on-alert hit but the highest I have gotten it to was 766 which translates to 21% for defiance (Note: 20% defiance is 489)

As for regeneration the heal applies once every 3 seconds. You get up to 30% bonus resistance that scales down as you lose hp. Sure the heal can scale up to nearly 2k hp every 3 seconds so you can only tolerate 666.667 damage per second(after all mitigation) before the heal would stop 'overhealing' you. Now the good thing about regeneration is that if you take no damage or less damage than your tolerance level for the first full second that means your next second can tolerate the difference more dps. So in short: Regeneration is a special type of flat damage reduction almost like how invul is except the flat damage reduction shrinks and grows based on the amount of damage you took in one second of time. 30% Resistance w/ (Max heal)/3 flat damage reduction(that shrinks/grows depending on how much damage was sustained within the duration of 3 seconds)

Defiance only scales on Con. You gain energy whenever you gain a stack(the energy gain scales on your con and recovery). You do not 'need' to rank up defiance. The advantage on defiance is NOT worth it. The only thing that beats defiance from straight-out-the-box is lightning reflexes.

Lightning reflexes is the single best beginner defense passive. You truly do not need to rank up Lightning reflexes. Downfall to LR is that your main mitigating power is based on a diceroll, however, when the planets do align you mitigate more than defiance ever could(alone). The RNG hates you. Highest dodge I have ever idled with is 70.3% max is over 100%(which is silly that they allow this...) Highest avoidance I have ever idled with is 88.9% and the max avoidance I have ever had is 97.8%.

Theoretically you only need 116% damage reduction(as well as damage bonus) from any passive and gear combination in order to reach max 'efficiency' for that specific value.

To give you a hint on how good avoidance is here is how much damage I took with just 63.2% I had no defense/resistance at all(Just used r3 masterful dodge+swingingw/flippin' but yea)
[Combat (Self)] You lose 69 (188) Fire Damage from an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 138 (375) Fire Damage from Yellow Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 375 Fire Damage from Yellow Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 276 (750) Fire Damage from Green Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 553 (1500) Fire Damage from Blue Beam.
[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 5115 (13888) Particle Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 7206 (19565) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

And here is 100% Resistance to all damage (Came from only using Experimental Artificial Life Injection...destroid has defense penetration so I can't show you those numbers)

[Combat (Self)] You lose 94 (188) Fire Damage from Red Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 188 (375) Fire Damage from Yellow Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 377 (750) Fire Damage from Green Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 753 (1500) Fire Damage from an unknown ability.

88.9% Avoidance + 19% Defense
[Combat (Self)] You lose 16 (188) Fire Damage from Red Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 32 (375) Fire Damage from an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 65 (750) Fire Damage from an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 129 (1500) Fire Damage from Blue Beam.

90.2% Avoidance + 19% Defense
[Combat (Self)] You lose 14 (188) Fire Damage from Red Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 28 (375) Fire Damage from Yellow Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 57 (750) Fire Damage from Green Beam.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 113 (1500) Fire Damage from Blue Beam.
**[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 2026 (20776) Particle Damage to you with Eye
Beams.**

But with the above aside I'd just do some trial and error and see which passive I like better and which one fits the theme of my character(if I cared) and if I liked the effects of certain passives.

wesleytansg · February 2013

Sorry Ayonachan, I don't quite get your picture. How is it possible to get 800+ int and 105 on other stats while using Invulnerability? My assumption of the stats in the picture will be using AoPM right?

ayonachan · February 2013

Yes I had AoPM(and 3 stacks of 30 audacity I think I don't really remember) To show 'max' super stat scaling for invulnerability. The actual quote was from comparing the two flat damage reductions to show how poorly they scaled.

The way I am using it here is to show how far a 'maxed' invulnerability falls behind a 'maxed' defiance ('maxed' defiance being 21% from 766 con for a total of 126%). The rank 3 IDF is just part of the background but you 'can' use it as a poor comparison for defiance+idf against invulnerability but the values would be different if you truly compared a true idf from the 766 con.

So pretty much the pictures are there to minimize how much I talk about invulnerability while still mentioning it and giving numbers for this specific passive value.

flamingbunnyman · February 2013

One thing nobody's mentioned yet: Endorphin Rush.

Since the OP specifically mentioned Might, it's reasonable to assume that he's taking Enrage. Endorphin Rush's Duration is based off the number of stacks of Defiance you have, and in my experience, ER may not replace a self heal, but it definitely reduces how often you need to use one. It's pretty easy to keep ER constantly ticking with Defiance. Not sure if you can with other passives.

If you stack Defiance + Endorphin Rush + Dodge + Con/+HP, you probably won't need to touch your heal button unless you're fighting end boss type enemies.

jennymachx · February 2013

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

Since the OP specifically mentioned Might, it's reasonable to assume that he's taking Enrage. Endorphin Rush's Duration is based off the number of stacks of Defiance you have, and in my experience.

I'm pretty sure Endorphin Rush doesn't scale with Defiance stacks anymore, but with Enrage ones instead ever since Enrage was made a form. The description just hasn't been changed up till now.

honestresearcher · February 2013

I look at these two powers like this:

Regen - Casual PvE'er Pseudo-Tank, which can spend more powers/points on DPS, and can doesnt have to run complicated synergies. Just have themed/concept fun!

Defiance - For a Main Tank Min-Maxer who wants the most defence, and to stand against the hardest foes and never falter. But it costs more powers/points to buy heals and more defense buffs to complete it.

Regen is cheap and easy to work with, but it wont let you go crazy, especially in Elite for example.

Defiance pushes your defenses very high, and with some heals will let you do a lot more than regen and keep on your feet in tough times, but at expense at DPS possibilities.

flamingbunnyman · February 2013

jennymachx wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Endorphin Rush doesn't scale with Defiance stacks anymore, but with Enrage ones instead ever since Enrage was made a form. The description just hasn't been changed up till now.

Well, it really shouldn't be too hard to test that, so I'm going to have to, since it may affect some of my build decisions.

I really do wish that they'd update the power descriptions when they change them. I've run into a few that don't work exactly as the descriptions say, and as a new player who wasn't around to see patch notes and/or discussions of changes, I have to rely on the in-game info, which is anywhere from useless to detrimental, depending on how inaccurate it is.

wesleytansg · February 2013

ayonachan wrote: »

Yes I had AoPM(and 3 stacks of 30 audacity I think I don't really remember) To show 'max' super stat scaling for invulnerability. The actual quote was from comparing the two flat damage reductions to show how poorly they scaled.

The way I am using it here is to show how far a 'maxed' invulnerability falls behind a 'maxed' defiance ('maxed' defiance being 21% from 766 con for a total of 126%). The rank 3 IDF is just part of the background but you 'can' use it as a poor comparison for defiance+idf against invulnerability but the values would be different if you truly compared a true idf from the 766 con.

So pretty much the pictures are there to minimize how much I talk about invulnerability while still mentioning it and giving numbers for this specific passive value.

Ahh ok thanks for the clarification. I was wondering if you had more than 1 stack of AoPM prior to on alert (if I am not wrong they do not stack anymore right?) However 891 INT is a "disgustingly" high number LOL. Wonder what the cooldown will be like. But I still don't quite get it. Because you can get AoPM buff from another person but you cannot get the audacity buff from someone else which means you have to use quarry which will not let you use invulnerability. Or do the stacks remain for the duration even when u switch passive?

flamingbunnyman · February 2013

With some VERY expensive equipment, and the right talents, I could get anyone's PSS to just over 600. I don't think AoPM would boost it to 891, but it would likely add 75-100 more, judging from the numbers in that screen shot.

wesleytansg · February 2013

Yes over 600 is possible with 2 r9 growth amulet and 6 r9 mod all thrown in with 3 vigi sec gear.

ayonachan · February 2013

All my numbers and such are from my solo endeavors within the game(except ONE piece of data which is the picture of my 97.8% avoidance but only because I needed someone to sidekick down to) The stacks of audacity remain until time kills them off. Gaining 3 stacks of audacity then switching out your passive to AoPM requires a grace period of around 4 seconds before all your passive values chill the **** out. Thumbing over a rank 3 invulnerability will show you exactly how much it would give if you were allowed to use it with your current passive values.

Just some random bits of information:

826 Int grants a 30% Concentration(Which means all forms except idf are at 30% for their main bonus when they are at 826 for their specific stat)

Highest int I have ever had(Solo) would be 910. Nothing of significance came from this..Concentration was 32/16 (I think..don't really remember..)

25 second cooldowns is the highest possible cooldown to gain a perma active defense/offense with a rank 3 revitalize. 25 is not the lowest cooldown I can idle with.

Using Int as my primary SS I get 22 seconds with 8 seconds in-between them.
691 Int(104%)
389+93 Cooldown Reduction from Gear
21% Defensive Expertise 3
38% Aura of Clarity 3

Quarry caps at 30 int 30 ego (BOO!)

781 Int is 117%
820 int is 123%
826 int is 124%

370 Cooldown Speed along with 10 int('lowest' amount of int you will ever idle with) turns:
5.9 seconds into 2.9 seconds
15 seconds into 7.2 seconds
30 seconds into 15 seconds
1 minute 29 seconds into 43 seconds
1 minute 58 seconds into 58 seconds
236 minutes 27 seconds into 115 minutes 50 seconds

482 Cooldown Reduction and 10 int makes 1 minute 58 seconds into 50 seconds..

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2387631&postcount=13

Hmm...Now that I can look back at it all I have a lot of informative information instead of my previous observation of rants..

cyraxis · February 2013

I actually have been using a Regen Might Tank for some time now and when it comes to passives I find Regeneration to be the best.

I superstat STR but all of my gear focuses on CON (roughly 500 CON and it is a secondary) Which gives me tons of defense via the Juggernaut skill and when you combo that with the popular "warden" and "Vindicator" tree I can reach 95% damage resistance from defense alone.

That combined with dodge gear and the 30% resistance from regen makes me a pretty durable tank with the added bonus that you get 1500 health per 3 seconds.

Only things that give me trouble now are people that use "Ebon Ruin" and other might toons that use "Haymaker" as they debuff the heal.

Ebon ruin users are usually ranged so all I have to do is uppercut them into the atmosphere and use Chi resurgance when I take a lot of rapid fire.

For Haymaker it is a simple question of who is more skilled and it seems to be the only thing that I have issues with.

I love fighting other might users anyway as they are always exciting.

Defiance or Regeneration

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