"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Honestly, I think it's awesome you're proving it wrong. Any tips on how you pull it off? I'd love to retcon one of my heros back to crowd control sometime.
He's pulling it off with spamming TK Maelstrom and Ego Storm... against Alert trash. Would love to see how well this does against Legendaries, Cosmics, and 5-man Elite content.
IMO, most CC is "meh". And the vast majority of the time you don't need it in CO.
Good CC:
Stun
Maintained Paralyze
Root
Snare
Confuse is somewhere in the middle.
Bad CC:
Placate
Charged Paralyze
Sleep
The "Good CC" is good because they're reliable and don't break easily. "Bad CC" is bad because it breaks way too easily. Maintained Paralyzes refresh themselves each period. Charged Paralyze breaks in only a few hits. Placate sucks, and Sleep is broken instantly by damage. Not to mention mobs become immune to CC after a while, and most bosses are immune from the get-go.
He's pulling it off with spamming TK Maelstrom and Ego Storm... against Alert trash. Would love to see how well this does against Legendaries, Cosmics, and 5-man Elite content.
In most games I've played those types of Boss mobs are immune to CC....
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
In most games I've played those types of Boss mobs are immune to CC....
True, but there are some boss fights I can think of that CC would actually be useful, because there are mobs that constantly spawn alongside the boss. Like... in TT, you have Baron's unending zombies. Or TT himself having Nephilim spawn. Lemurians come in on the Bronze King fight...
Just cuz it won't affect the boss doesn't mean it isn't useful.
He's pulling it off with spamming TK Maelstrom and Ego Storm... against Alert trash. Would love to see how well this does against Legendaries, Cosmics, and 5-man Elite content.
IMO, most CC is "meh". And the vast majority of the time you don't need it in CO.
Good CC:
Stun
Maintained Paralyze
Root
Snare
Confuse is somewhere in the middle.
Bad CC:
Placate
Charged Paralyze
Sleep
The "Good CC" is good because they're reliable and don't break easily. "Bad CC" is bad because it breaks way too easily. Maintained Paralyzes refresh themselves each period. Charged Paralyze breaks in only a few hits. Placate sucks, and Sleep is broken instantly by damage. Not to mention mobs become immune to CC after a while, and most bosses are immune from the get-go.
Maintained Paralyzes are the inbetween for CC. If a single target dies during a maintain of Ego Storm then the maintain is interrupted.
And yes, it was during an Alert because "Tough" enemies are much more reliable to demonstrate on than your typical trash enemies. When I get the opportunity to, I will have some recordings of Therakiel's or a NemCon.
I don't disagree with your list in pairing which CC abilities go where but I can say that I have been saved by using Placate on an Enforcer at the right time.
As far as Legendaries/Cosmics, there's no way that I'll be able to use control on them with this character from the video as they are ranged damage role using these abilities.
Edit:
Oh and there is nothing wrong with using TK Maelstrom and Ego Storm repeatedly. Not much different from people running around using Lead Tempest or Epidemic constantly. It's just my foes can't fight back. :biggrin:
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
It lagged me like crazy whenever I used it, even with the debris level turned way down. x3 I'm hoping it didn't do the same to everyone else. Nobody seemed to complain, so it was probably ok for them.
Lately I use knock-up instead of stun, so that the real controllers don't have to deal with a rapid resistance build-up.
I just wish I could get a CC tailored passive from telepathy + support role and do that.
I would not have perhaps as much damage, but I sure as hell would be able to lock down everything.
CC's problem is that ANYTHING can break it, except Ego Sleep + Ego Sprites combo.
Your own damage can end it, others damage can end it and to top it all off even your opponents can end your CC by death or by just plain having 2 stuns applied to them before hand and they breakout.
Ranged Damage Role has its PRO's in that it allows for great ranged damage as seen in the build vid. It essentially is a ranged Ego Damage build with reactive control mechanisms, which IMO is superby themeatic and effective, but is not my own personal idea of a heavy CC build (mainly because its not in support role).
Some mechanics and interactions between powers in Telepathy need assistance. If Crowd Control really is meant to be that then it should work on ALL types of crowds. Not just low - medium level crowds. Why? Because currently, running a CC build in high level content is not effective.
Back when Jaybezz used to play the game I saw just how well a dedicated CC build could lock down opponents (back when I was just a Mind AT). Jaybezz used insane level mods to achieve those affects and still couldnt hold legendaries.
It doesnt seem like any other mechanic is affected the way CC is. Your damage, healing or movement speed isnt nerfed by Elite Difficulty, yet CC durations and some actual powers will just flat out not make use of their primary affect, i.e. Using Ego Placate on higher than Enforcer Level NPC, will grant them a dmg resistance debuff..instead of wiping you from their mind. IMO Confuses need to have a higher chance to confuse enemies towards other enemies instead of it being random, so that they "could" attack you or a crate >_>;
My Opinion?
- Crowd Control could be ALOT better, it was partially fixed including the form tailored for it..BUT this was then wiped from the PTS, along with the all important Telepathy Additions. (which, yes, included a passive and an AoE Paralyze)
-Some Crowd Control can be used to a good affect up to a certain point, before you hit the brick wall of: "NO CC HERE SORREH!"
-I personally am waiting on a Crowd Control Review, which was said to be happening in Jan and that fell on its face..
-Crowd Control is one of my favorite in game mechanics, in fact my most favorite. It was a huge mistake to incorperate Incapaciderps the way they did, it killed Maintained Holds and crushed my gaming experience as a Mind AT, who utilized that as my "ultimate amateur telepath attack"
- Just like all other mechanics such as damage, CC should be able to affect everything. You dont have to take certain attacks to deal minimal damage to a boss, you could even kill it with your energy builder if you are REALLY bored. Crowd Control on the other hand flat out stops being useful against most mobs which are able Alert Mob Level aka Enforcers.
- Crowd Control in a group is a joke. Cyrone's build is a wonder to watch and fight alongside, and because he has managed to balance out reactive control with high DPS, it is more of a Ranged DPS build than a full on Crowd controller build. The advantage is that the CC is strong enough to hold up for a while and his damage is high enough to "telepwn" them in the time between controls. In a large group however CC has no place, if you have three people or even one person with 3 attacks which stun, you can kiss your part in the team goodbye, until those stacks drop off, which most likely by then the target has been killed.
- Whilst it is a necessary mechanic...CC resistance (Hold Resistance Stacks) can be ramped up soo easily, it can quickly invalidate a crowd controller. For Example, last year when Jaybezz and I were online with our Telepaths, we decided to try a little team duel with another of my friends who is a "tough" type character, high defense and healing and good damage out put. Our combined CC cancelled each other out and it was not even in the slightest helping us, we were essentially buffing him throughout the entire fight. After knocking me away he killed Jaybezz then went after me...at the end of the match he had 6 stacks of CC resistance...3 stacks nullifies CC...so yeah..
Then there is Manipulator...which doesnt proc on many accounts of CC whether in set or out of set, as well as it not scaling well with INT (according to Jaybezz). These were fixed in the PTS build when there was the Telepathy Additions hype, before that was all scrapped.
Personally, despite all the things which have happened..Cryptic managed to get me to sub at the first sight of Crowd Control Mechanics being looked at and Telepathy Additions, I was happy and went from Silver to LTS...
5 months down the line, my main and most prized character STILL cannot use the build I have for her on the PTS on LIVE because the powers have been delayed (for reasons of a numerical nature, but which does not excuse it's inability to remain on the PTS for testing and feedback.)
Believe it or not, from such a negative post, I still love CC, CO and Telepath very very much. Even though others have given up for totally understandable reasons, I'm hanging on, waiting for the day when I can finally play my heroine the way I want to and be the heroine I want to be. Until that day comes, my telepath Mentella will be in her apartment sipping an endless supply of Peppermint Tea and reading her copy of PSI Weekly. And during the big event..she'll be leaning out of her window with a megaphone screaming out what the Kraken is thinking to all the heroes around.
True, but there are some boss fights I can think of that CC would actually be useful, because there are mobs that constantly spawn alongside the boss. Like... in TT, you have Baron's unending zombies. Or TT himself having Nephilim spawn. Lemurians come in on the Bronze King fight...
Just cuz it won't affect the boss doesn't mean it isn't useful.
Unless the boss is your main focus and objective..like in Gravitar. I long for a day when I can proudly step into a Gravitar Instance with other heroes and step back out victorious, feeling like I actually played my own part instead of acting as cannon fodder...
Even then on mobs they gain resistance too, after a few short secs (especially on Elite) you'll be having to hold them again which will last even shorter until you have no affect on them whatsoever, assuming your team are focusing on the primary objective...aka the boss.
The minions who come along would most likely be wiped out by a stray bullet from Lead Tempest or be fatally poisoned by Epidemic.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see crowd control fixed to be better. One of my first toons was originally a Mind AT, then freeform that had mostly Telepathy powers. Incapacitates killed Ego Storm though...
She's been revamped to be a mostly dedicated healer, though I long to have her return to being a Telepath someday...
I already made a thread on the mechanics of Crowd Control and put my opinions there.
Confuse powers still work on Henchmen, Villans and Master Villains. Paired with Night Warrior (to give the feeling that you're forcing enemies into believing you're not there) you can cause some mayhem amongst enemies.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
The biggest issue I have with crowd control is that it is not quality based.
An Ego based toon using Manipulator should suck at holds (Specifically compared to a PRE or INT controller), but based on the video it doesn't really matter. Because the current system is quantity based (Also because enemies are hella weak)
Worse off.. teaming with someone with sucky holds makes GOOD holds suck.
Anyone in DE:LTA would tell you just how badass Kontrol was at keeping entire bases of Serpent Lantern at bay. I'm talking 5 man Elite Serpent Lantern going directly after the base leader and pulling ALL the adds and keeping them disabled long enough to take them off without losing any teammates. Know what happens when there's two telepaths..? Death
Also your Ego Storm is now immobile so you get the joys of standing still while REAL enemies kill you dead.. another glorious nerf.
- -
Get a 5 man team and go do Serpent Lantern (Elite). Go for the Base Commander first. Post Video..
The biggest issue I have with crowd control is that it is not quality based.
An Ego based toon using Manipulator should suck at holds (Specifically compared to a PRE or INT controller), but based on the video it doesn't really matter. Because the current system is quantity based (Also because enemies are hella weak)
Worse off.. teaming with someone with sucky holds makes GOOD holds suck.
Anyone in DE:LTA would tell you just how badass Kontrol was at keeping entire bases of Serpent Lantern at bay. I'm talking 5 man Elite Serpent Lantern going directly after the base leader and pulling ALL the adds and keeping them disabled long enough to take them off without losing any teammates. Know what happens when there's two telepaths..? Death
Also your Ego Storm is now immobile so you get the joys of standing still while REAL enemies kill you dead.. another glorious nerf.
- -
Get a 5 man team and go do Serpent Lantern (Elite). Go for the Base Commander first. Post Video..
I would've loved to have done SL Elite with that kind of control when I was running it with Protogen.
Side note about the build I'm using in the video - The character has Pre secondary superstat and CC Strength increase in primary Utility.
Stat totals are:
306 Ego
275 Pre
173 Rec
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Kontrol had 750+ in just INT.. (using the spec to change INT into PRE for hold strength) and guess what.. her holds were functionally just as good as your 275 PRE.
The mechanic is broken as long as it's counting "how many holds" and not "how strong of holds"
(Also the energy return on Manipulator does not scale with INT.. still
ALSO ALSO I want an INT/EGO Innate Talent ASAP..)
wait did this just turn into me giving out the same grievances I've had with telepathy/crowd control since 2 years ago? YUP. BUT I'll curtail it early.
The thing i don't get is that, 1) telepathy from this video does not look broken at all, not saying it isn't just the OP shows a good portrayal of telepathy powers, and secondly, shouldn't all CC powers be useful at higher levels, with good gear, i mean when i play a superhero game i want to feel super, so when i go up against some of the baddest and i'm equipped to the hilt with legion gear or heroic gear, i want to be able to absolutely annihilate my competition, sure it should be a bit of a struggle, but from spending thousands on the AH to get the best gear and i still feel like i'm not so super, maybe it's just my style, but i still feel the game is broken beyond just telepathy, maybe even gear and stats.
The internetz is one crazy place! tread carefully!
The thing i don't get is that, 1) telepathy from this video does not look broken at all, not saying it isn't just the OP shows a good portrayal of telepathy powers, and secondly, shouldn't all CC powers be useful at higher levels, with good gear, i mean when i play a superhero game i want to feel super, so when i go up against some of the baddest and i'm equipped to the hilt with legion gear or heroic gear, i want to be able to absolutely annihilate my competition, sure it should be a bit of a struggle, but from spending thousands on the AH to get the best gear and i still feel like i'm not so super, maybe it's just my style, but i still feel the game is broken beyond just telepathy, maybe even gear and stats.
And there's the danger of all of the "crowd control works" crowd. There is SO little of the actual situation of crowd control into account.
A video showing "crowd control doesn't suck" while taking on lvl 30 alert mobs (that don't scale with team size nor difficulty) with only one controller on the team is a very skewed view of crowd control. And while it appears functional in ONE video let me assure you it is not.
The video shows nothing of Crowd Control Resistance (the true broken part of CC), nothing to the mobile vs rooted crowd control argument, and nothing of just how bad incapacitates are.
In the video Cyrone's toon was the FIRST toon to attack the mobs. Had he not been, the true nature of incapacitates would have been shown.. aka THEY SUCK.
This video is political propaganda.. like Exxon Mobile showing images of its employees helping wildlife. Sure the lobbyist gets the point across, but it is not truthful. If you share Cyrone's opinion that Crowd Control works I have LOTS of evidence to the contrary.
The more people say "it works" the less attention the devs will actually give to the plight of people who actually use it and know it does NOT work.
Telepathy/Holds/Controller Players are Rwanda and the devs are the United States.. People are suffering but it's ignorable suffering.. unless you're Rwandan.
And there's the danger of all of the "crowd control works" crowd. There is SO little of the actual situation of crowd control into account.
There's little of either side to crowd control. I was just demonstrating that it's useful with my themed build.
A video showing "crowd control doesn't suck" while taking on lvl 30 alert mobs (that don't scale with team size nor difficulty) with only one controller on the team is a very skewed view of crowd control. And while it appears functional in ONE video let me assure you it is not.
I'll get some videos of lairs up soon. Don't get me wrong, CC is far from working as players would want it to. The whole "stacking resists" is absolute garbage.
The video shows nothing of Crowd Control Resistance (the true broken part of CC), nothing to the mobile vs rooted crowd control argument, and nothing of just how bad incapacitates are.
Didn't show the resistance because the mobs were down before the true broken part of CC could take effect.
In the video Cyrone's toon was the FIRST toon to attack the mobs. Had he not been, the true nature of incapacitates would have been shown.. aka THEY SUCK.
Truth.
This video is political propaganda.. like Exxon Mobile showing images of its employees helping wildlife. Sure the lobbyist gets the point across, but it is not truthful. If you share Cyrone's opinion that Crowd Control works I have LOTS of evidence to the contrary.
It's not my complete opnion that CC works. It's situational at best and if the person tossing the control gets into the fray before all of the lunging people do. Lunges wreck CC.
The more people say "it works" the less attention the devs will actually give to the plight of people who actually use it and know it does NOT work.
"It works" as intended due to the most recent pass....which is to say...it's usable but not preferred.
Telepathy/Holds/Controller Players are Rwanda and the devs are the United States.. People are suffering but it's ignorable suffering.. unless you're Rwandan.
Replies above.
Edit:
And yeah, I realize that the title I put for the video is rather sarcastic in nature. Probably due to frustration of whenever I would get into a PUG with her the first thing I would see is "Oh no, a telepath." Or "Ego Storm? May as well fail this alert now." Stuff along those lines.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
And there's the danger of all of the "crowd control works" crowd. There is SO little of the actual situation of crowd control into account.
A video showing "crowd control doesn't suck" while taking on lvl 30 alert mobs (that don't scale with team size nor difficulty) with only one controller on the team is a very skewed view of crowd control. And while it appears functional in ONE video let me assure you it is not.
The video shows nothing of Crowd Control Resistance (the true broken part of CC), nothing to the mobile vs rooted crowd control argument, and nothing of just how bad incapacitates are.
In the video Cyrone's toon was the FIRST toon to attack the mobs. Had he not been, the true nature of incapacitates would have been shown.. aka THEY SUCK.
This video is political propaganda.. like Exxon Mobile showing images of its employees helping wildlife. Sure the lobbyist gets the point across, but it is not truthful. If you share Cyrone's opinion that Crowd Control works I have LOTS of evidence to the contrary.
The more people say "it works" the less attention the devs will actually give to the plight of people who actually use it and know it does NOT work.
Telepathy/Holds/Controller Players are Rwanda and the devs are the United States.. People are suffering but it's ignorable suffering.. unless you're Rwandan.
After being referred to in general as the "crowd control works" crowd i stopped reading, i am on neither side, i was actually making an observation on the video, and let me remind you i was on YOUR side a few weeks ago when i said to raven that i would gather my findings on telepathy and make my own assumption.
I understand your grievance with telepathy being on hold but not everyone thinks the same way and not everyone is against you.
I am a massive fan of tk and telepathy as a whole and hope that the devs do in deed get around to it eventually.
The internetz is one crazy place! tread carefully!
After being referred to in general as the "crowd control works" crowd.
That wasn't directed at you.. and barely directed at Cyrone. Understand I have no personal vendetta, but anything and anyone that comes between telepathy and success is my enemy.
- -
Also I was going off your video title, Cy.
Everyone says that crowd control sucks and is worthless in Champions Online. I say different.
Saying "Crowd Control Works" takes away from so much of the core of my argument. No T, No Shade. Still you
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Stuns as controls are amazing. Paralyzes, incapcitates and confuses? Not so much.
My support toon Kali has had TK Maelstrom ever since the spec trees were released. The stun is great against MV or lower and it's still a 10% resist debuff (Wither in the Sentinel tree does work, there's just no icon) and allows for healing with Sentinel Mastery.
The only reason she runs Compassion instead of Manipulator is because TK Maelstrom isn't tagged to build stacks of Manipulator... like a lot of other controls that should work but don't.
EDIT: The reason stuns are so great is because damage does not cause them to break early.
stuns are so great is because damage does not cause them to break early.
This was a stupid decision in the grand scheme. 15second stuns are a dumb game mechanic when I cant even get a 4 second paralyze and paralyzes that strong require a full charge to cast.
This was a stupid decision in the grand scheme. 15second stuns are a dumb game mechanic when I cant even get a 4 second paralyze and paralyzes that strong require a full charge to cast.
LAME.
I was just having a little poke around the wiki at the Hold Resistance Stacks page and so not only do holds weaken naturally over time, but in addition breakfree damage can be administered by Z spamming...the wiki says:
"The hold resist buff that appears after a target has been held or stunned gives +100% hold resist. Each hold that ends while the hold resist buff is on a target refreshes the previous buffs and adds a new one. After 3 stacks of the hold resist buff on the target, the target is immune to all holds and stuns until the hold resist stacks time out. The hold resist buff lasts 15 seconds."
I would blindly suggest that natural weakening of holds over time is removed, and can only be attained via Z smashing.
Manipulator would decrease the amount of -Hold HP that Z mashing provides, and this would scale with INT/PRE as well as its other benefits.
I would say that Hold Resistance stacks would give X% resistance to holds, so that at 3 stacks it would be difficult to hold an opponent unless you were specifically built for control. (Not loving the look of the percentage that the wiki gave but it might be necessary for different reasons)
Also I find it odd that there is no way to take advantage of hold resistance stacks, similar to how Might is now able to deal increased damage against Knock Resistant Targets.
I'd like it if Paralyzes were stronger than stuns, it makes sense. But bleh...
Oh well, whenever Telepathy is resummoned, I'll most likely be spam posting about it
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IMO, most CC is "meh". And the vast majority of the time you don't need it in CO.
Good CC:
Confuse is somewhere in the middle.
Bad CC:
The "Good CC" is good because they're reliable and don't break easily. "Bad CC" is bad because it breaks way too easily. Maintained Paralyzes refresh themselves each period. Charged Paralyze breaks in only a few hits. Placate sucks, and Sleep is broken instantly by damage. Not to mention mobs become immune to CC after a while, and most bosses are immune from the get-go.
My 40s: Munitions, Electricity, TK Blades, Gadgeteering DPS
Other toons: Fire, Heavy Weapons Tank, Dual Blades, Fightning Claws, AoRP Support, Bestial Supernatural, Archery,
TK Ranged, Infernal Tank, Ice DPS, Laser Sword, Heavy Weapons DPS
In most games I've played those types of Boss mobs are immune to CC....
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
Just cuz it won't affect the boss doesn't mean it isn't useful.
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Maintained Paralyzes are the inbetween for CC. If a single target dies during a maintain of Ego Storm then the maintain is interrupted.
And yes, it was during an Alert because "Tough" enemies are much more reliable to demonstrate on than your typical trash enemies. When I get the opportunity to, I will have some recordings of Therakiel's or a NemCon.
I don't disagree with your list in pairing which CC abilities go where but I can say that I have been saved by using Placate on an Enforcer at the right time.
As far as Legendaries/Cosmics, there's no way that I'll be able to use control on them with this character from the video as they are ranged damage role using these abilities.
Edit:
Oh and there is nothing wrong with using TK Maelstrom and Ego Storm repeatedly. Not much different from people running around using Lead Tempest or Epidemic constantly. It's just my foes can't fight back. :biggrin:
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
It lagged me like crazy whenever I used it, even with the debris level turned way down. x3 I'm hoping it didn't do the same to everyone else. Nobody seemed to complain, so it was probably ok for them.
Lately I use knock-up instead of stun, so that the real controllers don't have to deal with a rapid resistance build-up.
I would not have perhaps as much damage, but I sure as hell would be able to lock down everything.
CC's problem is that ANYTHING can break it, except Ego Sleep + Ego Sprites combo.
Your own damage can end it, others damage can end it and to top it all off even your opponents can end your CC by death or by just plain having 2 stuns applied to them before hand and they breakout.
Ranged Damage Role has its PRO's in that it allows for great ranged damage as seen in the build vid. It essentially is a ranged Ego Damage build with reactive control mechanisms, which IMO is superby themeatic and effective, but is not my own personal idea of a heavy CC build (mainly because its not in support role).
Some mechanics and interactions between powers in Telepathy need assistance. If Crowd Control really is meant to be that then it should work on ALL types of crowds. Not just low - medium level crowds. Why? Because currently, running a CC build in high level content is not effective.
Back when Jaybezz used to play the game I saw just how well a dedicated CC build could lock down opponents (back when I was just a Mind AT). Jaybezz used insane level mods to achieve those affects and still couldnt hold legendaries.
It doesnt seem like any other mechanic is affected the way CC is. Your damage, healing or movement speed isnt nerfed by Elite Difficulty, yet CC durations and some actual powers will just flat out not make use of their primary affect, i.e. Using Ego Placate on higher than Enforcer Level NPC, will grant them a dmg resistance debuff..instead of wiping you from their mind. IMO Confuses need to have a higher chance to confuse enemies towards other enemies instead of it being random, so that they "could" attack you or a crate >_>;
My Opinion?
- Crowd Control could be ALOT better, it was partially fixed including the form tailored for it..BUT this was then wiped from the PTS, along with the all important Telepathy Additions. (which, yes, included a passive and an AoE Paralyze)
-Some Crowd Control can be used to a good affect up to a certain point, before you hit the brick wall of: "NO CC HERE SORREH!"
-I personally am waiting on a Crowd Control Review, which was said to be happening in Jan and that fell on its face..
-Crowd Control is one of my favorite in game mechanics, in fact my most favorite. It was a huge mistake to incorperate Incapaciderps the way they did, it killed Maintained Holds and crushed my gaming experience as a Mind AT, who utilized that as my "ultimate amateur telepath attack"
- Just like all other mechanics such as damage, CC should be able to affect everything. You dont have to take certain attacks to deal minimal damage to a boss, you could even kill it with your energy builder if you are REALLY bored. Crowd Control on the other hand flat out stops being useful against most mobs which are able Alert Mob Level aka Enforcers.
- Crowd Control in a group is a joke. Cyrone's build is a wonder to watch and fight alongside, and because he has managed to balance out reactive control with high DPS, it is more of a Ranged DPS build than a full on Crowd controller build. The advantage is that the CC is strong enough to hold up for a while and his damage is high enough to "telepwn" them in the time between controls. In a large group however CC has no place, if you have three people or even one person with 3 attacks which stun, you can kiss your part in the team goodbye, until those stacks drop off, which most likely by then the target has been killed.
- Whilst it is a necessary mechanic...CC resistance (Hold Resistance Stacks) can be ramped up soo easily, it can quickly invalidate a crowd controller. For Example, last year when Jaybezz and I were online with our Telepaths, we decided to try a little team duel with another of my friends who is a "tough" type character, high defense and healing and good damage out put. Our combined CC cancelled each other out and it was not even in the slightest helping us, we were essentially buffing him throughout the entire fight. After knocking me away he killed Jaybezz then went after me...at the end of the match he had 6 stacks of CC resistance...3 stacks nullifies CC...so yeah..
Then there is Manipulator...which doesnt proc on many accounts of CC whether in set or out of set, as well as it not scaling well with INT (according to Jaybezz). These were fixed in the PTS build when there was the Telepathy Additions hype, before that was all scrapped.
Personally, despite all the things which have happened..Cryptic managed to get me to sub at the first sight of Crowd Control Mechanics being looked at and Telepathy Additions, I was happy and went from Silver to LTS...
5 months down the line, my main and most prized character STILL cannot use the build I have for her on the PTS on LIVE because the powers have been delayed (for reasons of a numerical nature, but which does not excuse it's inability to remain on the PTS for testing and feedback.)
Believe it or not, from such a negative post, I still love CC, CO and Telepath very very much. Even though others have given up for totally understandable reasons, I'm hanging on, waiting for the day when I can finally play my heroine the way I want to and be the heroine I want to be. Until that day comes, my telepath Mentella will be in her apartment sipping an endless supply of Peppermint Tea and reading her copy of PSI Weekly. And during the big event..she'll be leaning out of her window with a megaphone screaming out what the Kraken is thinking to all the heroes around.
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I am @RavenForce in game
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I already made a thread on the mechanics of Crowd Control and put my opinions there.
Meh...
Although your video makes me want to try a telepathy toon now...I tried a Darkness hold tank although it didn't end too well...
Deliciously nutritious!
Unless the boss is your main focus and objective..like in Gravitar. I long for a day when I can proudly step into a Gravitar Instance with other heroes and step back out victorious, feeling like I actually played my own part instead of acting as cannon fodder...
Even then on mobs they gain resistance too, after a few short secs (especially on Elite) you'll be having to hold them again which will last even shorter until you have no affect on them whatsoever, assuming your team are focusing on the primary objective...aka the boss.
The minions who come along would most likely be wiped out by a stray bullet from Lead Tempest or be fatally poisoned by Epidemic.
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I am @RavenForce in game
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She's been revamped to be a mostly dedicated healer, though I long to have her return to being a Telepath someday...
Cyrone: Suggestions for specializations?
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Confuse powers still work on Henchmen, Villans and Master Villains. Paired with Night Warrior (to give the feeling that you're forcing enemies into believing you're not there) you can cause some mayhem amongst enemies.
These are the specs for the character I used in the video.
Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (2/3)
Sentry: Twist Fate (2/2)
Sentry: Precise (3/3)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Initiative (2/2)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Precisely.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
An Ego based toon using Manipulator should suck at holds (Specifically compared to a PRE or INT controller), but based on the video it doesn't really matter. Because the current system is quantity based (Also because enemies are hella weak)
Worse off.. teaming with someone with sucky holds makes GOOD holds suck.
Anyone in DE:LTA would tell you just how badass Kontrol was at keeping entire bases of Serpent Lantern at bay. I'm talking 5 man Elite Serpent Lantern going directly after the base leader and pulling ALL the adds and keeping them disabled long enough to take them off without losing any teammates. Know what happens when there's two telepaths..? Death
Also your Ego Storm is now immobile so you get the joys of standing still while REAL enemies kill you dead.. another glorious nerf.
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Get a 5 man team and go do Serpent Lantern (Elite). Go for the Base Commander first. Post Video..
I would've loved to have done SL Elite with that kind of control when I was running it with Protogen.
Side note about the build I'm using in the video - The character has Pre secondary superstat and CC Strength increase in primary Utility.
Stat totals are:
306 Ego
275 Pre
173 Rec
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
The mechanic is broken as long as it's counting "how many holds" and not "how strong of holds"
(Also the energy return on Manipulator does not scale with INT.. still
ALSO ALSO I want an INT/EGO Innate Talent ASAP..)
wait did this just turn into me giving out the same grievances I've had with telepathy/crowd control since 2 years ago? YUP. BUT I'll curtail it early.
The internetz is one crazy place! tread carefully!
And there's the danger of all of the "crowd control works" crowd. There is SO little of the actual situation of crowd control into account.
A video showing "crowd control doesn't suck" while taking on lvl 30 alert mobs (that don't scale with team size nor difficulty) with only one controller on the team is a very skewed view of crowd control. And while it appears functional in ONE video let me assure you it is not.
The video shows nothing of Crowd Control Resistance (the true broken part of CC), nothing to the mobile vs rooted crowd control argument, and nothing of just how bad incapacitates are.
In the video Cyrone's toon was the FIRST toon to attack the mobs. Had he not been, the true nature of incapacitates would have been shown.. aka THEY SUCK.
This video is political propaganda.. like Exxon Mobile showing images of its employees helping wildlife. Sure the lobbyist gets the point across, but it is not truthful. If you share Cyrone's opinion that Crowd Control works I have LOTS of evidence to the contrary.
The more people say "it works" the less attention the devs will actually give to the plight of people who actually use it and know it does NOT work.
Telepathy/Holds/Controller Players are Rwanda and the devs are the United States.. People are suffering but it's ignorable suffering.. unless you're Rwandan.
Replies above.
Edit:
And yeah, I realize that the title I put for the video is rather sarcastic in nature. Probably due to frustration of whenever I would get into a PUG with her the first thing I would see is "Oh no, a telepath." Or "Ego Storm? May as well fail this alert now." Stuff along those lines.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
After being referred to in general as the "crowd control works" crowd i stopped reading, i am on neither side, i was actually making an observation on the video, and let me remind you i was on YOUR side a few weeks ago when i said to raven that i would gather my findings on telepathy and make my own assumption.
I understand your grievance with telepathy being on hold but not everyone thinks the same way and not everyone is against you.
I am a massive fan of tk and telepathy as a whole and hope that the devs do in deed get around to it eventually.
The internetz is one crazy place! tread carefully!
That wasn't directed at you.. and barely directed at Cyrone. Understand I have no personal vendetta, but anything and anyone that comes between telepathy and success is my enemy.
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Also I was going off your video title, Cy.
Saying "Crowd Control Works" takes away from so much of the core of my argument. No T, No Shade. Still
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name: Kr'anri
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Ego (Primary)
Level 10: Presence (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Soldier
Level 6: Intimidating
Level 9: Indomitable
Level 12: Tireless
Level 15: Showmanship
Level 18: Wordly
Level 21: Lasting Impression
Powers:
Level 1: Psi Lash
Level 1: Ego Blast (Rank 2, Mind Opener)
Level 6: Ego Sprites (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 8: Night Warrior (Rank 2, Rank 3, Silent Running)
Level 11: Telepathic Reverberation
Level 14: Ego Sleep (Plagued by Nightmares)
Level 17: Masterful Dodge
Level 20: Ego Storm (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Concentration
Level 26: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Telekinetic Shield (Telekinetic Reinforcement)
Level 32: Ego Placate (Svengali's Guile)
Level 35: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Travel Powers:
Level 6: Teleportation
Level 35: Superspeed (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Specializations:
Ego: Force of Will (2/2)
Ego: Insight (3/3)
Ego: Follow Through (3/3)
Ego: Sixth Sense (2/3)
Sentry: Twist Fate (2/2)
Sentry: Precise (3/3)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Sentry: Reinforce (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Initiative (2/2)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (2/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (3/3)
Mastery: Ego Mastery (1/1)
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
My support toon Kali has had TK Maelstrom ever since the spec trees were released. The stun is great against MV or lower and it's still a 10% resist debuff (Wither in the Sentinel tree does work, there's just no icon) and allows for healing with Sentinel Mastery.
The only reason she runs Compassion instead of Manipulator is because TK Maelstrom isn't tagged to build stacks of Manipulator... like a lot of other controls that should work but don't.
EDIT: The reason stuns are so great is because damage does not cause them to break early.
This was a stupid decision in the grand scheme. 15second stuns are a dumb game mechanic when I cant even get a 4 second paralyze and paralyzes that strong require a full charge to cast.
LAME.
I was just having a little poke around the wiki at the Hold Resistance Stacks page and so not only do holds weaken naturally over time, but in addition breakfree damage can be administered by Z spamming...the wiki says:
"The hold resist buff that appears after a target has been held or stunned gives +100% hold resist. Each hold that ends while the hold resist buff is on a target refreshes the previous buffs and adds a new one. After 3 stacks of the hold resist buff on the target, the target is immune to all holds and stuns until the hold resist stacks time out. The hold resist buff lasts 15 seconds."
I would blindly suggest that natural weakening of holds over time is removed, and can only be attained via Z smashing.
Manipulator would decrease the amount of -Hold HP that Z mashing provides, and this would scale with INT/PRE as well as its other benefits.
I would say that Hold Resistance stacks would give X% resistance to holds, so that at 3 stacks it would be difficult to hold an opponent unless you were specifically built for control. (Not loving the look of the percentage that the wiki gave but it might be necessary for different reasons)
Also I find it odd that there is no way to take advantage of hold resistance stacks, similar to how Might is now able to deal increased damage against Knock Resistant Targets.
I'd like it if Paralyzes were stronger than stuns, it makes sense. But bleh...
Oh well, whenever Telepathy is resummoned, I'll most likely be spam posting about it
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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