I don't see the issue. You want to run a short adventure with an "I-win" button, that awards cash and prizes for minimal effort? We already have Alerts.
On the other hand, I still want to tell the tale of Kevin Poe escaping Stronghold during Menton's breakout attempt, and seeking revenge against you for not only defeating him (twice, if you took the mission from Cpl. Harrison in MC), but (if you did the Breanna Biselle arc) taking out Psimon before he could (and if not, I suppose he could just be angry that since you put him in Stronghold, someone else stopped Psimon first)...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I don't see the issue. You want to run a short adventure with an "I-win" button, that awards cash and prizes for minimal effort? We already have Alerts.
On the other hand, I still want to tell the tale of Kevin Poe escaping Stronghold during Menton's breakout attempt, and seeking revenge against you for not only defeating him (twice, if you took the mission from Cpl. Harrison in MC), but (if you did the Breanna Biselle arc) taking out Psimon before he could (and if not, I suppose he could just be angry that since you put him in Stronghold, someone else stopped Psimon first)...
Sounds similar to what I was thinking about xD, mine would be (if my telepath had powers) Kevin Poe wishes to take out PSI before my telepath can overthrow PSI and rule it as a sort of hero mentalists club along with her "nemesis" Psion. Its all on her PRIMUS Page
Sounds similar to what I was thinking about xD, mine would be (if my telepath had powers) Kevin Poe wishes to take out PSI before my telepath can overthrow PSI and rule it as a sort of hero mentalists club along with her "nemesis" Psion. Its all on her PRIMUS Page
Okay then, I guess I can always open with the Magna Carta Scenario, or maybe Threads of DOOM!!
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
The best way to do it, IMO, is to make sure UGC provide absolutely no rewards.
I used to think differently, back when I played City of Heroes. But after seeing the sequence of trainwrecks Mission Architect and Foundry became (and not the fun Alert trainwreck), I think the surest way to avoid exploits and warping of 'player-made stories' into something else is simply to make story content about story, and nothing else.
(Well, ok, maybe rewards like kudos and accolades and whatnot, but no loot/xp/questionite/etc.)
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Happened to catch a dev online the other night and asked about The Foundry; basically while they seemed to think it was a good idea (excited even), due to "cost to port and associated time, Foundry is on indefinite hold".
I had sent a note to Jack Emmet's facebook account some time ago and no reply. I told the dev that we would even be interested in helping to fund it/crowdsourcing, etc.. but no reply.
Not sure where the original idea for the petition came from, which I think was great, but doesn't seem like anyone is listening.
And to follow up on some previous comments, as a former MA avid author and user, it was a great system that survived in spite of those trying to exploit it. Here, as noted above, you have alerts for farming so Foundry would fill a nice niche of players wanting to experience different content (no need to farm it if you have Alerts!) and as well an outlet for those wishing to creatively expand on the backstories of the basic CO lore.
Oh well.. guess if you want UGC, can always do STO or NeverWinter... I give up.
First, before interjecting my own views here, I will start with the simple "Yes, Please!"
- Now that the formality is done. -
Whether or not this thread is taken seriously is a rather illegitimate worry. I consider this the player-base showing genuine interest in wanting to see something added. However, to also play the Devil's advocate; I hearken back to Silverspar's statements that (and I've seen enough naysayers and trolls IN-GAME doing it) players will just complain, gripe, B#$@% and moan about any attempt that Cryptic makes to enrich the game.
Pavlovian response, people. WE may have bitten Cryptic's hand so many times, in so many different venues; that they won't put out huge content just for that reason. Who wants to treat the development of the game as a sort of working 'magnum opus', and then have it torn down and hacked to shreds with each brush stroke, by the very people that clamored for you to make it in the first place? In short, PWE wanting more money might not have killed Champions Online, but the players wanting more and more, and when they get Cryptic to attempt to deliver they spit on it and trash it ... it only serves to show the Devs that the main part of the player-base does not want more content, etc. ... they only want more to fuel their inner 'troll-fires'.
Granted, I have seen this growing in ALL MMO communities, and it's disheartening. But still ... I hope for the future of Champions, lest we all have to go to DCUO for our "Hero MMO" fix
Pavlovian response, people. WE may have bitten Cryptic's hand so many times, in so many different venues; that they won't put out huge content just for that reason. Who wants to treat the development of the game as a sort of working 'magnum opus', and then have it torn down and hacked to shreds with each brush stroke, by the very people that clamored for you to make it in the first place? In short, PWE wanting more money might not have killed Champions Online, but the players wanting more and more, and when they get Cryptic to attempt to deliver they spit on it and trash it ... it only serves to show the Devs that the main part of the player-base does not want more content
the fact is they HAVENT put out huge content, just crap. Content in mmos means permenent story content.
The last we got at all was 14 months ago (whiteout)
The last (and only zone we got, which was just finishing the below minimum starting content) was vibora bay 3 years ago.
In total we have had 1 zone and 5 aps/comic series in almost 3.5 years.
Look at STO, they have had more content in the last few months than weve had in 3.5 years!
By this age the game should have at least double the content it has. The reason people complain so much is because of this immense neglect
the fact is they HAVENT put out huge content, just crap. Content in mmos means permenent story content.
The last we got at all was 14 months ago (whiteout)
The last (and only zone we got, which was just finishing the below minimum starting content) was vibora bay 3 years ago.
In total we have had 1 zone and 5 aps/comic series in almost 3.5 years.
Look at STO, they have had more content in the last few months than weve had in 3.5 years!
By this age the game should have at least double the content it has. The reason people complain so much is because of this immense neglect
You're missing the point that kitsunemagus is making. That being, unless I'm mistaken, that we don't have at least double the content we should have because this community has bitten the hand that feeds us so many times that big content projects simply aren't worth the frustration anymore.
Yes... with the caveat that whatever is implemented to integrate it *with CO* needs to walk a line somewhere between STO and AE (from CoX). Neither one of those extremes will help the game in the long run.
If we get told that it is in the offing, or even that it is under serious consideration and suggestions could be useful, I'll address my personal take on how to do that balance in the appropriate forum at that point in time.
*How much* money I'd be willing to pony up would depend greatly on how confident I was that it wouldn't just turn into a fiasco -- but with that said, one of the things I purchased from the CoX store was extra AE publication slots. I'm perfectly willing to spend money as long as I have any reason to believe it will be *well* spent.
Also, triple extra bonus points if the "creator" side of it can be made to work offline, in the same general sense that demo mode does.
You're missing the point that kitsunemagus is making. That being, unless I'm mistaken, that we don't have at least double the content we should have because this community has bitten the hand that feeds us so many times that big content projects simply aren't worth the frustration anymore.
I got the point perfectly.
Mine is they keep getting bit BECAUSE they arent giving us good content updates.
The few actual content updates were good, great even in most cases, but they have been virtually non existant (5 standalone adventures in 3 years, and NON in the last 14 months)
You're missing the point that kitsunemagus is making. That being, unless I'm mistaken, that we don't have at least double the content we should have because this community has bitten the hand that feeds us so many times that big content projects simply aren't worth the frustration anymore.
ive debated myself abot responding to this.
interesting that you blame the players whove wanted more comunication from the devs or even from our csr. have you seen other mmo game boards everyone complains about everything. al game devs there is no way to please everyone. but you choise to blame the players.
this is a business the devs know that no matter what they will get people angry. look at the last until report it is not by our current ep its by robo. alot of people came here because they wanted to play because it was free or simply it is a superhero game.
look atsto they have people complaing all the time, yet the ddev team and the csr still talks to them. ours does not. yet you blame us.
you say we bite the hand that feeds us. interesting i think you have it backwards. under rob and the 1st ep we had more content given to us then now. when i 1st started playing i had to pay. now all people have to do is spend money in the zstore.
in novenmebr i rember people trying to be nice to the devs by having constructive crit/ of the game and devs. yet noone came to even talk to us.
Pavlovian response, people. WE may have bitten Cryptic's hand so many times, in so many different venues; that they won't put out huge content just for that reason. Who wants to treat the development of the game as a sort of working 'magnum opus', and then have it torn down and hacked to shreds with each brush stroke, by the very people that clamored for you to make it in the first place? In short, PWE wanting more money might not have killed Champions Online, but the players wanting more and more, and when they get Cryptic to attempt to deliver they spit on it and trash it ... it only serves to show the Devs that the main part of the player-base does not want more content, etc. ... they only want more to fuel their inner 'troll-fires'.
On the other hand, Cryptic moved most of CO's devs off the project to STO shortly after release.
Emmert, Cryptic's CEO, is on the record saying that he, and the rest of Cryptic's management, had misread the MMO market. Players, in general, now judge an MMO, not on how it will be a year after release, but how it stacks up to the competition at the moment of release. The primary goal of the dev team was to release feature-complete (i.e., all the major systems like PvE, PvP, crafting, chat, teaming, etc. were in-game). Well, mission accomplished -- yay team! Unfortunately, many of those systems were, not to mince words, BAD.
Within a couple months, during the build-up to STO's launch, Emmert embarked on a string of interviews in which, to paraphrase, he said, "We'll do better. We will make sure our new releases are of the highest possible quality."
Compound this basic error with the lack of dev bodies and an utter lack of communication leading up to the Kitchen Sink cluster****?
The game went into a downward spiral; Cryptic burnt up a HUGE chunk of its goodwill with its players (losing most of its subs).
Customers have the very basic right to complain about the products and services they pay for. IME, as a value proposition, CO was absolutely not worth the premium $15 / month sub Cryptic was charging, at least for the majority of customers compared what the competition had.
To castigate the playerbase for biting the hand that feeds it? You have a basic misunderstanding of how businesses should work. Cryptic are pros. They've been making MMOs for over a decade. They've released 3, are close to releasing a fourth. To have buggered up CO so monumentally and let their playerbase twist in the wind with little communication? With even less indication of where the game is headed? To treat them like marks at a carnival with gambling?
Dude, that's inexcusable in a game that still charges (an admittedly optional) subscription.
*Remembers when people threw a fit about paying for the Vibora Bay content*
*Remembers when content development declined little by little thereafter with some bright spots here and there over the years*
*Remembers many of the same people who threw a fit about buying an expansion later claiming that they'd donate funding to get more content in the game*
*Wonders if said claims of donation are the result of wonderful retrospection or amazing irony*
Wonders if said claims of donation are the result of wonderful retrospection or amazing irony
True, that.
But I'd also add that Jack demonstrated an enormous pair when he said that future content would transaction-based. The game released with so little content (40 hours, less than most premium-priced RPGs with no subs) that it honestly looked like we were being asked to pay for the privilege of fixing the game's most glaring flaw.
I mean, usually, bug fixes are free / included in the price of the sub.
Again, Cryptic has been remarkably tone-deaf when it comes to dealing with us.
Developers are not children. Developers are not special needs cases. Developers are not fueled by ******n hugs and puppy dogs.
What the **** is wrong with you people? We hurt their ******n feelings? This is a ****ing business!! How many of you decide to quit your job because your boss was mean to you? Christ, what kind of weak **** rationalization have people gotten to at this point?
We all started on fantabulous terms, and for the most part, still love our development teams (what little we have of them) but that doesn't magically turn the crap they're churning out into priceless diamond encrusted platinum rainbows.
Nobody (mostly) survives a market with a bad product, and the fact that CO is still around is primarily because it's a labor of love on both sides of the fence. How many of us have at this point thrown thousands of dollars at Cryptic in general and CO specifically? Being nice to people at this point means ****, and pretending that your child ****ting it's pants is just super adorable is only stunting them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should abuse and berate our developers; far from it, they have busted their asses time and again in extremely meaningful ways for the players, and for that they deserve the highest praise in the business, because no other teams have given that kind of love to their community except maybe Paragon, but I refuse to believe that until someone can give me an example the equivalent of Tumer jumping in on a thread about character height and then going in to the main screen to add an antenna so we weren't working completely blind on his own time or Splosions and Crush looking into personalized problems that weren't even their jobs.
But getting an A+ on your homework does not mean you get to skip the pop-quiz. A car with a good paint job does not get a pass on it's annual checkup.
*Remembers when people threw a fit about paying for the Vibora Bay content*
*Remembers when content development declined little by little thereafter with some bright spots here and there over the years*
*Remembers many of the same people who threw a fit about buying an expansion later claiming that they'd donate funding to get more content in the game*
*Wonders if said claims of donation are the result of wonderful retrospection or amazing irony*
Dude, there's a very real difference between whether something is worth paying for and whether the playerbase is willing to support the game.
There's a real difference between a buddy trying to sell you his broken VCR vs. asking you for a loan til he can get on his feet. And there's a huge difference between the company that adds an option for additional financial support vs one that tries to gouge their players.
It's not the result of retrospection or irony, it's simple customer interaction, and it's the main reason people don't like used car salesmen, but don't mind throwing a couple bucks in a cup for a dude playing a $300 guitar in the street.
The VB debacle came like 2 months into the life of the game when there was a pretty big gap in content, and if they were seriously relying on VB to save the unfinished game they had a ****ty business plan going on. "We don't expect to actually sell enough copies to support ourselves in the first 6 months, so what we're going to do instead is release the game incomplete and charge the players we did get extra for 20% of the game, and scrap the project if it doesn't go well."
If they seriously couldn't survive the failure of one expansion pack and they absolutely needed it to "make it' then they were ****ed from the get.
It's not the result of retrospection or irony, it's simple customer interaction...
So what you're saying is basically that it's not even slightly ironic that people who vehemently wouldn't "donate" (pay) for content 2 months into the lifecycle of the game eventually got so far down on the state of game content that they offered to donate money (pay) for content later on down the road...
OK then. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe that was totally the expected outcome rather than a contrary outcome...
So what you're saying is basically that it's not even slightly ironic that people who vehemently wouldn't "donate" (pay) for content 2 months into the lifecycle of the game eventually got so far down on the state of game content that they offered to donate money for content later down the road...
OK then. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe that was totally the expected outcome rather than a contrary outcome...
It's not. At least not to me. Like I said, there's a difference between being willing to pay for a product based on quality and being willing to make a donation to a project you care about.
Are they the same thing in practical terms (i.e. giving Cryptic money for, essentially, nothing)? Sure. But there's still a, for lack of a better term, procedural difference. I'm not willing to reward ****ty work, but I'm willing to give to something I care about.
I stated previously, a looooooooong time ago, that I wanted a donate button somewhere because the dev team had done something I liked that required no purchase (fixing a bug or something, I have no idea what it was at this point) while at the same time added something to the C-store which was crap (probably a grab bag) and I said specifally that I wanted to give Cryptic money for their work, but did not want that money associated with the crap they had just added to the store. There are some behaviors worth rewarding, and others that are not, and being able to make that distinction is important.
So no, to me there is no contradiction in being willing to donate to potential project vs paying a second time for something that was lacking from the initial product, and to this day, and even back then, I would have gladly given $100 to Cryptic had they asked or even not asked and set the option, but will not pay for an incomplete zone or, for example, buy a ****ty vehicle. I have at the moment $50+ worth of Zen sitting in my account with nothing to spend it on, and it should be $100 because I got those prototype jets I was dissatisfied with but then didn't feel like going through the refund process because it really doesn't even matter anyway since there's nothing worth buying and they don't really care what your money goes to anyway; point being that they have my money for nothing, and I'm (mostly) ok with that.
I'm doing that thing folk tell me to do - voting with my wallet. I vote no to behavior that releases an incomplete game, and yes to advancing a labor of love.
And it could have even been something as stupid as phrasing it different - "Donate now to speed production of Vibora Bay - Help Expand the Game You Love and get a Special Vampire Foxbat Action Figure or Some Other Crap Not Worth The $50 You're Giving Us!!!"
even "Yo, we're out of cash, we need some, hook it up."
edit: tl;dr No, because that was not a donation, that was payment for poor service.
You're not talking about the same thing I'm talking about (likely because you feel you're one of the people I described and are on the defensive about it).
I'm talking about when people said they wouldn't pay for something back then it was 1) unexpected they'd be here 3 and half years later and 2) unexpected that things would have progressed from "no, that content that I know about is not worth the money" to "here, take this donated money for content development/to get back on your feet before I even know what it's going to be to know if it's worth it".
You are talking about why people want/don't want to spend money, subjective opinion on value and semantics of when giving money is a payment or a donation. None of this is what I'm talking about or anything I've alluded to. I'm talking about how things went over time and if it was expected that things would go this way (irony).
So, since you say there's no irony, you're telling me you completely expected to get to the point of saying "hey, here's some money to help get back on your feet" even though the very first bit of content that was proposed for money back when they were supposedly on their feet was deemed by you to be not worth it. Is this what you're saying or am I misreading you here?
So, since you say there's no irony, you're telling me you completely expected to get to the point of saying "hey, here's some money to help get back on your feet" even though the very first bit of content that was proposed for money back when they were supposedly on their feet was deemed by you to be not worth it. Is this what you're saying or am I misreading you here?
to paraphrase, what hes saying (correct me if im wrong) and i agree with is
1) people and always have been willing to pay for content
2) people werent willing to pay for vibora bay at launch as back then we were paying a sub fee (rather than free plus buy additions) PLUS it was needed to finish the content gap in the basic game that we had ALREADY paid for
Theres a HUGE difference to not being happy about paying for vibora bay at launch and being willing to pay for content now (no sub so pay for content is fine and expected, basic game content gap has been filled - though barely expanded upong at all)
You're not talking about the same thing I'm talking about (likely because you feel you're one of the people I described and are on the defensive about it).
I'm talking about when people said they wouldn't pay for something back then it was 1) unexpected they'd be here 3 and half years later and 2) unexpected that things would have progressed from "no, that content that I know about is not worth the money" to "here, take this donated money for content development/to get back on your feet before I even know what it's going to be to know if it's worth it".
You are talking about why people want/don't want to spend money, subjective opinion on value and semantics of when giving money is a payment or a donation. None of this is what I'm talking about or anything I've alluded to. I'm talking about how things went over time and if it was expected that things would go this way (irony).
So, since you say there's no irony, you're telling me you completely expected to get to the point of saying "hey, here's some money to help get back on your feet" even though the very first bit of content that was proposed for money back when they were supposedly on their feet was deemed by you to be not worth it. Is this what you're saying or am I misreading you here?
Kind of? Lemme try it this way - no because I don't think that being willing to donate/pay/buy/whatever now is contrary to (not) being willing to pay for VB then, and because I, and a good number of others, were at the point of saying "hey, here's some money" from the start.
Would I consider it irony if we weren't taking VB into account - e.g. "isn't it ironic that people who didn't want to give money before are throwing their money at the screen now?" - totally. But in contrasting it to the VB situtation, I think the differences have reasoning behind it. Maybe I'm being overly pedantic, but without that contradictory bit, I don't think it's ironic. I could be wrong, or we just may not agree or maybe I'm just not getting you which is very possible, and highly likely since I'm not too good at the communicating...
I think I'm getting you tho - "did I think that specifically the people who did not want to give money would want to give money now?" Ima go with "yeah, cuz I think most of those specific people didn't wanna give money for VB specifically, but otherwise they would, and thus do not see the contradiction and therefore no irony."
is that where we're at? or am I being to literal here? I get the feeling I'm missing something...
"isn't it ironic that people who didn't want to give money before are throwing their money at the screen now?" - totally.
That's all I was saying summed up beautifully. It's gotten so bad people are like "here, just take some money, whatever you need just...do something, anything for the game."
Actually, quite a few of us DON'T pay them. There are a number of Silvers; I daresay the Silver players outnumber the Golds in-game, based on the chats I've seen. (And since some of them came in after this "streamlined Character Creator" nonsense, they aren't even aware there are ATs for purchase that will outperform most of the free ATs.)
On top of that, there are a fair number of people who used to sub, but have publicly declared that they're never giving any money to Cryptic for anything because of one or another perceived slight.
They're biting the hands that used to feed them, but have started withholding food. And really, I'm not sure I can blame them. From a quick survey of the MMO market, medieval games are where the money is; they're making NWO for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. And clearly, CO, while my particular favorite and one I'm going to keep playing, simply isn't going to be covering very many paychecks or power bills.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
From a quick survey of the MMO market, medieval games are where the money is; they're making NWO for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. And clearly, CO, while my particular favorite and one I'm going to keep playing, simply isn't going to be covering very many paychecks or power bills.
I've pretty much resigned myself to this as well. I enjoy what the game has. They don't put out anything new but I'm not paying out anymore money either so no point complaining, I just treat it like a multiplayer console game. I bought it, I'll play it.
The only thing I could really complain about is my inability to log in and play the last few days. Guild Wars 2 had a nice patch with some new bits but I'm in a hero mood so I've been trying to play here instead of over there...and for a good part of this week so far I couldn't because of launcher bugs/issues. But that's not really germane to this topic...or even the topic this thread evolved into.
Actually, quite a few of us DON'T pay them. There are a number of Silvers; I daresay the Silver players outnumber the Golds in-game, based on the chats I've seen. (And since some of them came in after this "streamlined Character Creator" nonsense, they aren't even aware there are ATs for purchase that will outperform most of the free ATs.)
On top of that, there are a fair number of people who used to sub, but have publicly declared that they're never giving any money to Cryptic for anything because of one or another perceived slight.
They're biting the hands that used to feed them, but have started withholding food. And really, I'm not sure I can blame them. From a quick survey of the MMO market, medieval games are where the money is; they're making NWO for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. And clearly, CO, while my particular favorite and one I'm going to keep playing, simply isn't going to be covering very many paychecks or power bills.
Counterpoint 1 - if Silvers aren't giving them money, then F2P has failed as a business model. If F2P has failed as a business model, why continue the lockboxing?
Counterpoint 2 - while medieval MMOs are where the money is at, DCUO and CoX are both two of the most successful MMOs in the past decade, one of which did not require an F2P model to succeed, and the other has consistently used the store and content expansions for profits. CoX thrived for near a decade giving their stuff away for free and DCUO has been quick to churn out... things, consistently and in a timely basis.
Both CoX and DCUO's cash shops relied primarily on costume and vanity items. CO, instead of adding items, took several away from both Silvers and Golds. It's hard to say it's the Market when similar products succeed. It's hard to say it's the lack of willingness to purchase when similar cash systems succeed. It's hard to say it's the player attitude when CO has been routinely identified as one of the better communities. It's hard to say it's the community attitude when WoW is sucsessful, and players are shared throughout the MMOs.
Counterpoint 3 - Meanwhile, STO.
Same community, same company, same model, greater price gouging, greater cost of development due to the IP rights. Does the built in fanbase really make that much of a difference? Because I know several Trekkies who have never actually touched the game. And what about all the Superhero fans that were looking for something before DCUO came arount? Oh, right, no advertising, they didn't know about the game. STO and NW get banner ads in different places, including on the CO website. Both get top billing on the PWE site, while CO is relegated to the bottom of the list.
Are we seriously the worst community with the worst attitude, tightest wallets, smallest niche interest, and most ungrateful attitude?
Or is it that we just don't have enough people to make this game worth it? If that's the case - whose fault is that? What happened on launch day to cause a mass exodus? What happened after VB and Bloodmoon were first released? What happened on the 1 year anniversary? What happened to the influx of players from Free For All? What about the influx from On Alert? What happened to all the now homeless CoX players? What happened to any sort of initiative to get new customers? What happened to all our EPs?
How about an email to all new Neverwinter players offering 1 free month sub of CO?
Or a 50% freeform AT discount for all purchases of whatever in STO and NW?
Actually, quite a few of us DON'T pay them. There are a number of Silvers; I daresay the Silver players outnumber the Golds in-game, based on the chats I've seen. (And since some of them came in after this "streamlined Character Creator" nonsense, they aren't even aware there are ATs for purchase that will outperform most of the free ATs.)
On top of that, there are a fair number of people who used to sub, but have publicly declared that they're never giving any money to Cryptic for anything because of one or another perceived slight.
They're biting the hands that used to feed them, but have started withholding food. And really, I'm not sure I can blame them. From a quick survey of the MMO market, medieval games are where the money is; they're making NWO for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. And clearly, CO, while my particular favorite and one I'm going to keep playing, simply isn't going to be covering very many paychecks or power bills.
1) Silver =/= freeloaders
2) Continuous payment is not necessarily a requirement for costumer disatisfaction. And even if it were, my LTS is still 57 days away (as of this post) from its "break" even point (and I have barely logged in about a year--have played maybe 2-3 months worth in that time), so I'm technically still paying them and the money I spent on it is still a valid investment for purposes of saying "I have a right to complain as a customer". And even if my LTS was all payed up at this point you don't loose the right to complain or make claims once your purchase its all payed up. If there's a problem with the service or product you already payed for you're well within your rights to bring it up.
3) The hands that supposedly used to feed them started withholding food for a reason. Its up to them to provide a product we're willing to spend money on, not up to us to give them money unconditionally for the things they want to sell us.
DCUO and CoX are both two of the most successful MMOs in the past decade
Before I tear this to shreds (talking about DCUO) I thought I'd give you the courtesy of asking which criteria you're using so I know what I should start with... /trollface
Actually, quite a few of us DON'T pay them. There are a number of Silvers; I daresay the Silver players outnumber the Golds in-game, based on the chats I've seen.
I'd like to show to you list for my purchases, but frankly, it's none of your business.
Probably I could be subscribed instead of using Z-Store, but I won't, unless Cryptic will finally make this game meaningful. Othewise I'd end subscribing and unsubsribing with every their failure, in the end giving them far too much money for retrain tokens. No, thanks.
I reserve a right of complaining for myself, as I didn't made any purchases for funding STO or NWN, games of absolutely no interest for me, but for CO.
And, frankly, I do not care if Emmert and Stahl are in love with STO, NWN, or any other of their games. Money from CO players should be spent on CO.
Also, staying on topic for a change:
/yes, please
Start a kickstarter for the Foundry for CO, or do something.
Though I have no real faith that Foundry will be ever ported to CO, after watching and playing this game for a year.
Currently I'm in the point when I do believe that the only chance for CO would be being sold to another publisher and developer. Sadly, with its current shape, probably nobody would be interested with purchasing and running this game.
Before I tear this to shreds (talking about DCUO) I thought I'd give you the courtesy of asking which criteria you're using so I know what I should start with... /trollface
In game population, online presence and the selling of things? I could be wrong, I haven't checked in a while, but the screamings of doom and failure seem to have subsided coming from that direction and they're pretty consistently pumping out new stuff, including the hideouts. Those seem like good signs to me.
In game population, online presence and the selling of things? I could be wrong, I haven't checked in a while, but the screamings of doom and failure seem to have subsided coming from that direction and they're pretty consistently pumping out new stuff, including the hideouts. Those seem like good signs to me.
Whether they're turning a profit, I have no idea.
OK, I'm wondering where you are ranking this because the most successful MMOs I can think of in the last decade (as far as in game populations and reported revenue versus reported cost) aren't any of the common ones I see people naming other than W.A.R.C.R.A.F.T. They are the kind that companies like PWE and Nexon put out. Those games are always packed and the amount those companies say they make puts most of the common names to shame.
Edit: Why in the blue blazes was that game name caught by the profanity filter? That wasn't always the case. Now I want to test other game names.
This is as a recently-returned, subscription-paying player who participated in the beta test.
I would love to be able to create and share my own missions with my friends. I wouldn't even care if there were restrictions on EXP and drops to keep people from exploiting the game -- I just want to be able to BUILD.
OK, I'm wondering where you are ranking this because the most successful MMOs I can think of in the last decade (as far as in game populations and reported revenue versus reported cost) aren't any of the common ones I see people naming other than W.A.R.C.R.A.F.T. They are the kind that companies like PWE and Nexon put out. Those games are always packed and the amount those companies say they make puts most of the common names to shame.
Edit: Why in the blue blazes was that game name caught by the profanity filter? That wasn't always the case. Now I want to test other game names.
I typically don't count the eastern stuffs when I talk about MMOs, and I think that maybe goes for most of the conversatorizors up in here simply because they're not really a part of "our" world/culture (generally) and because they're based in a completely different marketing approach and media reporting. We just don't have that much overlap I think. It's a weird prejudice :redface:. To me it's like college football vs pro (if I knew anything about sports ), yeah, technically they're the same thing but really they're not lol
interesting that you blame the players whove wanted more comunication from the devs or even from our csr. have you seen other mmo game boards everyone complains about everything. al game devs there is no way to please everyone. but you choise to blame the players.
this is a business the devs know that no matter what they will get people angry. look at the last until report it is not by our current ep its by robo. alot of people came here because they wanted to play because it was free or simply it is a superhero game.
look atsto they have people complaing all the time, yet the ddev team and the csr still talks to them. ours does not. yet you blame us.
you say we bite the hand that feeds us. interesting i think you have it backwards. under rob and the 1st ep we had more content given to us then now. when i 1st started playing i had to pay. now all people have to do is spend money in the zstore.
in novenmebr i rember people trying to be nice to the devs by having constructive crit/ of the game and devs. yet noone came to even talk to us.
I just love how people seem to believe that I share a post's opinion or view because I explained it to someone who really didn't, and still doesn't, get what it was saying. (see below) When did reading comprehension become a superpower instead of a very useful job skill?
Mine is they keep getting bit BECAUSE they arent giving us good content updates.
The few actual content updates were good, great even in most cases, but they have been virtually non existant (5 standalone adventures in 3 years, and NON in the last 14 months)
You'd think that getting the Foundry into Champions was something that was supposed to be worked on since day one. Its been asked for nonstop, since it was first announced for STO. It should have been worked on while STO's was being done.
Cryptic needs to reward Champions with at least the Foundry to make up for all the negligence it has gotten since On Alert. There is more potential for it both here and NWO than it is on STO considering what can be done story wise with super heroes or fantasy warriors.
"We're considering a number of different options. I can tell you that we've seen the interest in getting Foundry to Champions."
Have hope. These things take time, but we are being listened to.
Link or it didn't happen ^_-
I kid, but I'd like a linky
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Yes Please.
It's easy enough to get toons to level cap but this would give us something more to do that grind for Q and G to get the new lockbox/drifter locked items.
______________________________________________
In a former life I was known as Supercollide
Comments
On the other hand, I still want to tell the tale of Kevin Poe escaping Stronghold during Menton's breakout attempt, and seeking revenge against you for not only defeating him (twice, if you took the mission from Cpl. Harrison in MC), but (if you did the Breanna Biselle arc) taking out Psimon before he could (and if not, I suppose he could just be angry that since you put him in Stronghold, someone else stopped Psimon first)...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Sounds similar to what I was thinking about xD, mine would be (if my telepath had powers) Kevin Poe wishes to take out PSI before my telepath can overthrow PSI and rule it as a sort of hero mentalists club along with her "nemesis" Psion. Its all on her PRIMUS Page
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I used to think differently, back when I played City of Heroes. But after seeing the sequence of trainwrecks Mission Architect and Foundry became (and not the fun Alert trainwreck), I think the surest way to avoid exploits and warping of 'player-made stories' into something else is simply to make story content about story, and nothing else.
(Well, ok, maybe rewards like kudos and accolades and whatnot, but no loot/xp/questionite/etc.)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I had sent a note to Jack Emmet's facebook account some time ago and no reply. I told the dev that we would even be interested in helping to fund it/crowdsourcing, etc.. but no reply.
Not sure where the original idea for the petition came from, which I think was great, but doesn't seem like anyone is listening.
And to follow up on some previous comments, as a former MA avid author and user, it was a great system that survived in spite of those trying to exploit it. Here, as noted above, you have alerts for farming so Foundry would fill a nice niche of players wanting to experience different content (no need to farm it if you have Alerts!) and as well an outlet for those wishing to creatively expand on the backstories of the basic CO lore.
Oh well.. guess if you want UGC, can always do STO or NeverWinter... I give up.
- Now that the formality is done. -
Whether or not this thread is taken seriously is a rather illegitimate worry. I consider this the player-base showing genuine interest in wanting to see something added. However, to also play the Devil's advocate; I hearken back to Silverspar's statements that (and I've seen enough naysayers and trolls IN-GAME doing it) players will just complain, gripe, B#$@% and moan about any attempt that Cryptic makes to enrich the game.
Pavlovian response, people. WE may have bitten Cryptic's hand so many times, in so many different venues; that they won't put out huge content just for that reason. Who wants to treat the development of the game as a sort of working 'magnum opus', and then have it torn down and hacked to shreds with each brush stroke, by the very people that clamored for you to make it in the first place? In short, PWE wanting more money might not have killed Champions Online, but the players wanting more and more, and when they get Cryptic to attempt to deliver they spit on it and trash it ... it only serves to show the Devs that the main part of the player-base does not want more content, etc. ... they only want more to fuel their inner 'troll-fires'.
Granted, I have seen this growing in ALL MMO communities, and it's disheartening. But still ... I hope for the future of Champions, lest we all have to go to DCUO for our "Hero MMO" fix
the fact is they HAVENT put out huge content, just crap. Content in mmos means permenent story content.
The last we got at all was 14 months ago (whiteout)
The last (and only zone we got, which was just finishing the below minimum starting content) was vibora bay 3 years ago.
In total we have had 1 zone and 5 aps/comic series in almost 3.5 years.
Look at STO, they have had more content in the last few months than weve had in 3.5 years!
By this age the game should have at least double the content it has. The reason people complain so much is because of this immense neglect
You're missing the point that kitsunemagus is making. That being, unless I'm mistaken, that we don't have at least double the content we should have because this community has bitten the hand that feeds us so many times that big content projects simply aren't worth the frustration anymore.
If we get told that it is in the offing, or even that it is under serious consideration and suggestions could be useful, I'll address my personal take on how to do that balance in the appropriate forum at that point in time.
*How much* money I'd be willing to pony up would depend greatly on how confident I was that it wouldn't just turn into a fiasco -- but with that said, one of the things I purchased from the CoX store was extra AE publication slots. I'm perfectly willing to spend money as long as I have any reason to believe it will be *well* spent.
Also, triple extra bonus points if the "creator" side of it can be made to work offline, in the same general sense that demo mode does.
I got the point perfectly.
Mine is they keep getting bit BECAUSE they arent giving us good content updates.
The few actual content updates were good, great even in most cases, but they have been virtually non existant (5 standalone adventures in 3 years, and NON in the last 14 months)
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
ive debated myself abot responding to this.
interesting that you blame the players whove wanted more comunication from the devs or even from our csr. have you seen other mmo game boards everyone complains about everything. al game devs there is no way to please everyone. but you choise to blame the players.
this is a business the devs know that no matter what they will get people angry. look at the last until report it is not by our current ep its by robo. alot of people came here because they wanted to play because it was free or simply it is a superhero game.
look atsto they have people complaing all the time, yet the ddev team and the csr still talks to them. ours does not. yet you blame us.
you say we bite the hand that feeds us. interesting i think you have it backwards. under rob and the 1st ep we had more content given to us then now. when i 1st started playing i had to pay. now all people have to do is spend money in the zstore.
in novenmebr i rember people trying to be nice to the devs by having constructive crit/ of the game and devs. yet noone came to even talk to us.
Emmert, Cryptic's CEO, is on the record saying that he, and the rest of Cryptic's management, had misread the MMO market. Players, in general, now judge an MMO, not on how it will be a year after release, but how it stacks up to the competition at the moment of release. The primary goal of the dev team was to release feature-complete (i.e., all the major systems like PvE, PvP, crafting, chat, teaming, etc. were in-game). Well, mission accomplished -- yay team! Unfortunately, many of those systems were, not to mince words, BAD.
Within a couple months, during the build-up to STO's launch, Emmert embarked on a string of interviews in which, to paraphrase, he said, "We'll do better. We will make sure our new releases are of the highest possible quality."
Compound this basic error with the lack of dev bodies and an utter lack of communication leading up to the Kitchen Sink cluster****?
The game went into a downward spiral; Cryptic burnt up a HUGE chunk of its goodwill with its players (losing most of its subs).
Customers have the very basic right to complain about the products and services they pay for. IME, as a value proposition, CO was absolutely not worth the premium $15 / month sub Cryptic was charging, at least for the majority of customers compared what the competition had.
To castigate the playerbase for biting the hand that feeds it? You have a basic misunderstanding of how businesses should work. Cryptic are pros. They've been making MMOs for over a decade. They've released 3, are close to releasing a fourth. To have buggered up CO so monumentally and let their playerbase twist in the wind with little communication? With even less indication of where the game is headed? To treat them like marks at a carnival with gambling?
Dude, that's inexcusable in a game that still charges (an admittedly optional) subscription.
Edit: fixed some typos. Damn, need more coffee.
*Remembers when content development declined little by little thereafter with some bright spots here and there over the years*
*Remembers many of the same people who threw a fit about buying an expansion later claiming that they'd donate funding to get more content in the game*
*Wonders if said claims of donation are the result of wonderful retrospection or amazing irony*
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
They bite the hand that feeds THEM.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
But I'd also add that Jack demonstrated an enormous pair when he said that future content would transaction-based. The game released with so little content (40 hours, less than most premium-priced RPGs with no subs) that it honestly looked like we were being asked to pay for the privilege of fixing the game's most glaring flaw.
I mean, usually, bug fixes are free / included in the price of the sub.
Again, Cryptic has been remarkably tone-deaf when it comes to dealing with us.
Developers are not children. Developers are not special needs cases. Developers are not fueled by ******n hugs and puppy dogs.
What the **** is wrong with you people? We hurt their ******n feelings? This is a ****ing business!! How many of you decide to quit your job because your boss was mean to you? Christ, what kind of weak **** rationalization have people gotten to at this point?
We all started on fantabulous terms, and for the most part, still love our development teams (what little we have of them) but that doesn't magically turn the crap they're churning out into priceless diamond encrusted platinum rainbows.
Nobody (mostly) survives a market with a bad product, and the fact that CO is still around is primarily because it's a labor of love on both sides of the fence. How many of us have at this point thrown thousands of dollars at Cryptic in general and CO specifically? Being nice to people at this point means ****, and pretending that your child ****ting it's pants is just super adorable is only stunting them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should abuse and berate our developers; far from it, they have busted their asses time and again in extremely meaningful ways for the players, and for that they deserve the highest praise in the business, because no other teams have given that kind of love to their community except maybe Paragon, but I refuse to believe that until someone can give me an example the equivalent of Tumer jumping in on a thread about character height and then going in to the main screen to add an antenna so we weren't working completely blind on his own time or Splosions and Crush looking into personalized problems that weren't even their jobs.
But getting an A+ on your homework does not mean you get to skip the pop-quiz. A car with a good paint job does not get a pass on it's annual checkup.
Dude, there's a very real difference between whether something is worth paying for and whether the playerbase is willing to support the game.
There's a real difference between a buddy trying to sell you his broken VCR vs. asking you for a loan til he can get on his feet. And there's a huge difference between the company that adds an option for additional financial support vs one that tries to gouge their players.
It's not the result of retrospection or irony, it's simple customer interaction, and it's the main reason people don't like used car salesmen, but don't mind throwing a couple bucks in a cup for a dude playing a $300 guitar in the street.
The VB debacle came like 2 months into the life of the game when there was a pretty big gap in content, and if they were seriously relying on VB to save the unfinished game they had a ****ty business plan going on. "We don't expect to actually sell enough copies to support ourselves in the first 6 months, so what we're going to do instead is release the game incomplete and charge the players we did get extra for 20% of the game, and scrap the project if it doesn't go well."
If they seriously couldn't survive the failure of one expansion pack and they absolutely needed it to "make it' then they were ****ed from the get.
Edit: Meanwhile, STO.
So what you're saying is basically that it's not even slightly ironic that people who vehemently wouldn't "donate" (pay) for content 2 months into the lifecycle of the game eventually got so far down on the state of game content that they offered to donate money (pay) for content later on down the road...
OK then. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe that was totally the expected outcome rather than a contrary outcome...
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
It's not. At least not to me. Like I said, there's a difference between being willing to pay for a product based on quality and being willing to make a donation to a project you care about.
Are they the same thing in practical terms (i.e. giving Cryptic money for, essentially, nothing)? Sure. But there's still a, for lack of a better term, procedural difference. I'm not willing to reward ****ty work, but I'm willing to give to something I care about.
I stated previously, a looooooooong time ago, that I wanted a donate button somewhere because the dev team had done something I liked that required no purchase (fixing a bug or something, I have no idea what it was at this point) while at the same time added something to the C-store which was crap (probably a grab bag) and I said specifally that I wanted to give Cryptic money for their work, but did not want that money associated with the crap they had just added to the store. There are some behaviors worth rewarding, and others that are not, and being able to make that distinction is important.
So no, to me there is no contradiction in being willing to donate to potential project vs paying a second time for something that was lacking from the initial product, and to this day, and even back then, I would have gladly given $100 to Cryptic had they asked or even not asked and set the option, but will not pay for an incomplete zone or, for example, buy a ****ty vehicle. I have at the moment $50+ worth of Zen sitting in my account with nothing to spend it on, and it should be $100 because I got those prototype jets I was dissatisfied with but then didn't feel like going through the refund process because it really doesn't even matter anyway since there's nothing worth buying and they don't really care what your money goes to anyway; point being that they have my money for nothing, and I'm (mostly) ok with that.
I'm doing that thing folk tell me to do - voting with my wallet. I vote no to behavior that releases an incomplete game, and yes to advancing a labor of love.
And it could have even been something as stupid as phrasing it different - "Donate now to speed production of Vibora Bay - Help Expand the Game You Love and get a Special Vampire Foxbat Action Figure or Some Other Crap Not Worth The $50 You're Giving Us!!!"
even "Yo, we're out of cash, we need some, hook it up."
edit: tl;dr No, because that was not a donation, that was payment for poor service.
You're not talking about the same thing I'm talking about (likely because you feel you're one of the people I described and are on the defensive about it).
I'm talking about when people said they wouldn't pay for something back then it was 1) unexpected they'd be here 3 and half years later and 2) unexpected that things would have progressed from "no, that content that I know about is not worth the money" to "here, take this donated money for content development/to get back on your feet before I even know what it's going to be to know if it's worth it".
You are talking about why people want/don't want to spend money, subjective opinion on value and semantics of when giving money is a payment or a donation. None of this is what I'm talking about or anything I've alluded to. I'm talking about how things went over time and if it was expected that things would go this way (irony).
So, since you say there's no irony, you're telling me you completely expected to get to the point of saying "hey, here's some money to help get back on your feet" even though the very first bit of content that was proposed for money back when they were supposedly on their feet was deemed by you to be not worth it. Is this what you're saying or am I misreading you here?
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
to paraphrase, what hes saying (correct me if im wrong) and i agree with is
1) people and always have been willing to pay for content
2) people werent willing to pay for vibora bay at launch as back then we were paying a sub fee (rather than free plus buy additions) PLUS it was needed to finish the content gap in the basic game that we had ALREADY paid for
Theres a HUGE difference to not being happy about paying for vibora bay at launch and being willing to pay for content now (no sub so pay for content is fine and expected, basic game content gap has been filled - though barely expanded upong at all)
Kind of? Lemme try it this way - no because I don't think that being willing to donate/pay/buy/whatever now is contrary to (not) being willing to pay for VB then, and because I, and a good number of others, were at the point of saying "hey, here's some money" from the start.
Would I consider it irony if we weren't taking VB into account - e.g. "isn't it ironic that people who didn't want to give money before are throwing their money at the screen now?" - totally. But in contrasting it to the VB situtation, I think the differences have reasoning behind it. Maybe I'm being overly pedantic, but without that contradictory bit, I don't think it's ironic. I could be wrong, or we just may not agree or maybe I'm just not getting you which is very possible, and highly likely since I'm not too good at the communicating...
I think I'm getting you tho - "did I think that specifically the people who did not want to give money would want to give money now?" Ima go with "yeah, cuz I think most of those specific people didn't wanna give money for VB specifically, but otherwise they would, and thus do not see the contradiction and therefore no irony."
is that where we're at? or am I being to literal here? I get the feeling I'm missing something...
That's all I was saying summed up beautifully. It's gotten so bad people are like "here, just take some money, whatever you need just...do something, anything for the game."
I did not see that coming.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
QFT,
Unfortunately it has become a common MMO costumer/player trend to believe things are the other way around and berate others for thinking otherwise.
On top of that, there are a fair number of people who used to sub, but have publicly declared that they're never giving any money to Cryptic for anything because of one or another perceived slight.
They're biting the hands that used to feed them, but have started withholding food. And really, I'm not sure I can blame them. From a quick survey of the MMO market, medieval games are where the money is; they're making NWO for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. And clearly, CO, while my particular favorite and one I'm going to keep playing, simply isn't going to be covering very many paychecks or power bills.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I've pretty much resigned myself to this as well. I enjoy what the game has. They don't put out anything new but I'm not paying out anymore money either so no point complaining, I just treat it like a multiplayer console game. I bought it, I'll play it.
The only thing I could really complain about is my inability to log in and play the last few days. Guild Wars 2 had a nice patch with some new bits but I'm in a hero mood so I've been trying to play here instead of over there...and for a good part of this week so far I couldn't because of launcher bugs/issues. But that's not really germane to this topic...or even the topic this thread evolved into.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Counterpoint 1 - if Silvers aren't giving them money, then F2P has failed as a business model. If F2P has failed as a business model, why continue the lockboxing?
Counterpoint 2 - while medieval MMOs are where the money is at, DCUO and CoX are both two of the most successful MMOs in the past decade, one of which did not require an F2P model to succeed, and the other has consistently used the store and content expansions for profits. CoX thrived for near a decade giving their stuff away for free and DCUO has been quick to churn out... things, consistently and in a timely basis.
Both CoX and DCUO's cash shops relied primarily on costume and vanity items. CO, instead of adding items, took several away from both Silvers and Golds. It's hard to say it's the Market when similar products succeed. It's hard to say it's the lack of willingness to purchase when similar cash systems succeed. It's hard to say it's the player attitude when CO has been routinely identified as one of the better communities. It's hard to say it's the community attitude when WoW is sucsessful, and players are shared throughout the MMOs.
Counterpoint 3 - Meanwhile, STO.
Same community, same company, same model, greater price gouging, greater cost of development due to the IP rights. Does the built in fanbase really make that much of a difference? Because I know several Trekkies who have never actually touched the game. And what about all the Superhero fans that were looking for something before DCUO came arount? Oh, right, no advertising, they didn't know about the game. STO and NW get banner ads in different places, including on the CO website. Both get top billing on the PWE site, while CO is relegated to the bottom of the list.
Are we seriously the worst community with the worst attitude, tightest wallets, smallest niche interest, and most ungrateful attitude?
Or is it that we just don't have enough people to make this game worth it? If that's the case - whose fault is that? What happened on launch day to cause a mass exodus? What happened after VB and Bloodmoon were first released? What happened on the 1 year anniversary? What happened to the influx of players from Free For All? What about the influx from On Alert? What happened to all the now homeless CoX players? What happened to any sort of initiative to get new customers? What happened to all our EPs?
How about an email to all new Neverwinter players offering 1 free month sub of CO?
Or a 50% freeform AT discount for all purchases of whatever in STO and NW?
What happened to the AT rotation program?
How about just raising the global cap?
1) Silver =/= freeloaders
2) Continuous payment is not necessarily a requirement for costumer disatisfaction. And even if it were, my LTS is still 57 days away (as of this post) from its "break" even point (and I have barely logged in about a year--have played maybe 2-3 months worth in that time), so I'm technically still paying them and the money I spent on it is still a valid investment for purposes of saying "I have a right to complain as a customer". And even if my LTS was all payed up at this point you don't loose the right to complain or make claims once your purchase its all payed up. If there's a problem with the service or product you already payed for you're well within your rights to bring it up.
3) The hands that supposedly used to feed them started withholding food for a reason. Its up to them to provide a product we're willing to spend money on, not up to us to give them money unconditionally for the things they want to sell us.
Before I tear this to shreds (talking about DCUO) I thought I'd give you the courtesy of asking which criteria you're using so I know what I should start with... /trollface
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I'd like to show to you list for my purchases, but frankly, it's none of your business.
Probably I could be subscribed instead of using Z-Store, but I won't, unless Cryptic will finally make this game meaningful. Othewise I'd end subscribing and unsubsribing with every their failure, in the end giving them far too much money for retrain tokens. No, thanks.
I reserve a right of complaining for myself, as I didn't made any purchases for funding STO or NWN, games of absolutely no interest for me, but for CO.
And, frankly, I do not care if Emmert and Stahl are in love with STO, NWN, or any other of their games. Money from CO players should be spent on CO.
Also, staying on topic for a change:
/yes, please
Start a kickstarter for the Foundry for CO, or do something.
Though I have no real faith that Foundry will be ever ported to CO, after watching and playing this game for a year.
Currently I'm in the point when I do believe that the only chance for CO would be being sold to another publisher and developer. Sadly, with its current shape, probably nobody would be interested with purchasing and running this game.
In game population, online presence and the selling of things? I could be wrong, I haven't checked in a while, but the screamings of doom and failure seem to have subsided coming from that direction and they're pretty consistently pumping out new stuff, including the hideouts. Those seem like good signs to me.
Whether they're turning a profit, I have no idea.
OK, I'm wondering where you are ranking this because the most successful MMOs I can think of in the last decade (as far as in game populations and reported revenue versus reported cost) aren't any of the common ones I see people naming other than W.A.R.C.R.A.F.T. They are the kind that companies like PWE and Nexon put out. Those games are always packed and the amount those companies say they make puts most of the common names to shame.
Edit: Why in the blue blazes was that game name caught by the profanity filter? That wasn't always the case. Now I want to test other game names.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
This is as a recently-returned, subscription-paying player who participated in the beta test.
I would love to be able to create and share my own missions with my friends. I wouldn't even care if there were restrictions on EXP and drops to keep people from exploiting the game -- I just want to be able to BUILD.
@Tiresias
Tiresias: Celestial/Darkness (Support)
Ravish: Bestial/Might/Unarmed (Tank)
I typically don't count the eastern stuffs when I talk about MMOs, and I think that maybe goes for most of the conversatorizors up in here simply because they're not really a part of "our" world/culture (generally) and because they're based in a completely different marketing approach and media reporting. We just don't have that much overlap I think. It's a weird prejudice :redface:. To me it's like college football vs pro (if I knew anything about sports
But yeah, they win, hands down.
I just love how people seem to believe that I share a post's opinion or view because I explained it to someone who really didn't, and still doesn't, get what it was saying. (see below) When did reading comprehension become a superpower instead of a very useful job skill?
Superpower? 8th grade, Catcher in the Rye.
Instead of useful job skill? 2003? 2004? I blame the Motorola Razr and the Sidekick.
It's not the devices it's the users. The fact I once owned a Sidekick makes me completely unbiased on that regard. /trollface
"We're considering a number of different options. I can tell you that we've seen the interest in getting Foundry to Champions."
Have hope. These things take time, but we are being listened to.
Keep it up, that is positive news and that is the attitude we all should move towards.
Cryptic needs to reward Champions with at least the Foundry to make up for all the negligence it has gotten since On Alert. There is more potential for it both here and NWO than it is on STO considering what can be done story wise with super heroes or fantasy warriors.
Wow the same thing we have heard a hundred times, till he says it here, I will continue to not believe he evens knows about us.
Link or it didn't happen ^_-
I kid, but I'd like a linky
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Ive been 'hoping' for more permenent story content for 14 months...
As said above, ill believe it when i see it, but at this point i dont expect to see anything except more empty promies - at best!
It will rejuvinate this game
It's easy enough to get toons to level cap but this would give us something more to do that grind for Q and G to get the new lockbox/drifter locked items.
In a former life I was known as Supercollide
I call bull**** (not on you, on Jack).
They've "seen interest in getting the Foundry to Champions" for years now.
Note, there is no mention of "working on," "looking at," or whatever. They're considering... something, tho (shutting us down?).
A link for context would be nice.
Hugs.