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Why even have tanks and healers?

seazombie64seazombie64 Posts: 114 Arc User
edited January 2013 in Power Discussion
Are tanks and healers still relevant? In my mind the tank takes and holds aggro, while the healer works to keep the tank and the rest of the team in the fight.

A large part of the people I usually play with have so much dodge/avoidance gear they rarely get hit, Masterful Dodge to make it even harder to hit them, BCR(with RR) and Ascension in the times are taking damage. They run in Hybrid role and even though they deal massive DPS, they have no need for a tank or healer. Even those who run in Ranged DPS still have so much buffs that they don't need either a tank or healer. Bringing a tank is pointless because there is so much DPS aggro is near impossible to hold, and no one needs to be healed so either of those types of characters are useless, even in Cosmic fights, at best and in the way at worst.

Do the roles, and the powers they are allowed, need to be looked at?
Should "tanks" get even more threat generation so they have a job?
Should MD and BCR be adjusted so they are less effective for Hybrid/DPS roles so the "healers" have a use?
I honestly don't have the answer. I just know that playing either a traditional tank or healer is rather pointless, at level 40 anyway, in a team of near unhittable and self healing DPS giants. Our teams are LESS effective if someone brings a "tank" or a "healer" to the fight. It seems to me that the traditional team is dead and my 2 healers, both 40, (1 telepathy and 1 celestial), and my 2 level 40 "tanks", Ice and earth, are 2nd rate heroes.
Not trying to start some kind of war here, so please power down your flamethrowers. I am just trying to figure out why the protector and support roles are even in the game anymore. Playing a traditional tank or healer is extremely satisfying when they are needed...and frustrating when not needed. Just looking for some clarity here.
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Comments

  • s3rjus3rju Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    i believe in fair play, so nothing is game-breaking until it gets to the point where tanks can't tank and healers can't heal, in which they both can.

    so with that being said, i'd aim for the maximum potential on each, and healer being the easier to accomplish, you don't really have to worry about the team so much if they have more layers of defense, it just means that you have less work to do. same goes for tanking, although even with massive dps on those hybrids, 4 seconds of grabbing aggro can mean a world of difference in some cases. let them grab the aggro, it only means that they'll take more beating because, they're not built for tanking with all that massive dmg whether they can help it or not, it's a give and take game and you have to giveup on one thing to get another.

    so all in all i'd say it balances out in the end and the holy trinity is not yet dead, it's just not what it used to be.

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  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Personally, I'd love a boost to things that are supposed to generate threat. The only reasons you'd grab them are to do exactly that.

    I got a few buddies who can peel aggro away, but most pugs and buddies I can tank for. I got the advantages, and the build, just sometimes, not enough threat either way.
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  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    This is probably a good time to remind everyone of Leeeeroy.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU

    For Healors and Tanks to matter moar...we need content where strategy, just in general, matters more.

    Swapping aggro when your ADs are down, attacking weaker mobs first, paying attention to pulls instead of zerging everything, etc, etc.

    Then again, the original and current thinking for the game may be to keep things very casual. it would be nice to at least have the option for higher difficulty.

    Right now, in order to make strategy matter you either have to gimp yourself intentionally or do things that the devs clearly did not intend for you to accomplish. Solo 5-man lairs, kill Gravitar in under 2 minutes, etc.
  • piro2genpiro2gen Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ... It seems to me that the traditional team is dead and my 2 healers, both 40, (1 telepathy and 1 celestial), and my 2 level 40 "tanks", Ice and earth, are 2nd rate heroes.

    ... Playing a traditional tank or healer is extremely satisfying when they are needed...and frustrating when not needed. Just looking for some clarity here.

    Different game, different rules.

    CO does have roles, but not Traditional/Trinity style roles.

    CO doesn't have a need to "I hjeeal only for over 9000", but there sure is good to have someone with aura (ebon destruction, sentinel, etc) in the group or those sigils that debuff and so on.

    DPS build can take care of itself on most/all cases, but if gets aggro, it can't do much damage.

    And so on ...

    Names are the same (tank, dps, support), but meaning is different.

    CO is designed for Freeform builds, hybrids, 90/50 rule (can do one thing good tho not perfect, but not one-trick-pony).

    CO does supports roles. It supports them very well. But not "traditional".
  • hubrixhubrix Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I would argue that it's only healers that are becoming irrelevant. Damage dealers get a significant drop in DPS trying to survive, not just by double stacking BCR's damage debuff but also wasting time activating defensive/healing powers.

    And while I don't really have problems regarding aggro when using Swarm, I would never say no to better threat generation.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The whole concept of tanks & healers, and aggro mechanics is handled poorly - why would an enemy attack the team member with the most defenses and HP? Enemies should go after the team members that actually pose the most threat to them. What needs to be done is for "tanks" to be given tools that make sense, when it comes to defending their team. For instance, the ability to physically block enemies from reaching/attacking their teammates, or ways to physically pull enemies off of allies - not this "I attack you w/ some weak attack and suddenly you want to hit me instead of that healer keeping everyone alive or the DPSer whose actually hurting me".
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  • reddestshirtreddestshirt Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    While I agree to some of your points, I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

    Support and Tanks do make a difference in fights like the Gravitar, but it is rare to see much real need for them elsewhere. It seems hero power is being inflated quicker than villain power.


    That said...
    All my characters are "tanks" and would never lose threat unless I end up in a team with an even better tank or if I am doing it horribly wrong.
    Tanks who lose threat are doing it wrong.

    Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are in fact playing with tanks and thinking they are mere damage dealers? I know that I personally do not have to switch over to the Tank role except for the purpose of standing inside the orange bubbles that Gravitar creates near the end.

    I agree completely with piro2gen, it is better to call them Support rather than Healers, as that is what their real role is. Healing is just another form of Support.
  • c3rvand0c3rvand0 Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Since in the comic book genre they don't have the holy trinity, it should have no place here either. It is an artificial creation created for PnP Fantasy games and it is only used because it makes game developers balancing easier. I would prefer that any group of players, regardless of 'roles' could succeed, depending on their tactics and ability and not whether or not they have an effective trinity. For example, 5 DPS can succeed by swapping aggro between them so that no one has the attention of the boss all the time.

    My most fervent wish is for the inappropriate excess of healing to be reduced. Instead we should have far more choice of and much more effective control powers that would allow players to reduce the amount of damage taken and not merely require us to take the hit and heal after. This would be far more fun and appropriate for the comic book genre.
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  • seazombie64seazombie64 Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Since CO is my 1st, and so far only, MMO then perhaps my expectations are not right for this game. I admit my concept of the trinity is based on my PnP experience.

    If I understand the general sentiment from everyone's replies, the roles "should" be something like this:
    DPS: fits my preconception..deal a lot of damage
    Protector: Tank is now protector, should go for crowd control. Slows, stuns, holds, debuffs
    Support: Healer is now support, should go for buffs, removing debuffs, aura's and healing.

    Seems that I need to shift my expectations. @reddestshirt: I am not playing with "intentional" tanks. They are designed and tweaked for maximum dps, around 1 or 2 powers, and everything else is focused around their survivability and energy management. They are effective at tanking without trying to be.
    At lower levels and/or with most pugs I see the more traditional trinity being more necessary, but at the higher levels it starts to shift more to the protector and support.

    Thanks everyone for your insights! I'll be heading to the PH to retcon my "tanks" in to protectors and my "healers" in to support. While I think the traditional trinity is a lot of fun...I can adapt my paradigm to fit my current multiverse.
  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Or some buffs could be given to the Protector and Sentinel roles that make it reasonable to use those instead of Hybrid, Brawler and Avenger. Nothing too big but something like more threat generation from Protector with a slight increase in damage when you're taking damage. Something like that.
  • vitalityprimevitalityprime Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    The whole concept of tanks & healers, and aggro mechanics is handled poorly - why would an enemy attack the team member with the most defenses and HP? Enemies should go after the team members that actually pose the most threat to them. What needs to be done is for "tanks" to be given tools that make sense, when it comes to defending their team. For instance, the ability to physically block enemies from reaching/attacking their teammates, or ways to physically pull enemies off of allies - not this "I attack you w/ some weak attack and suddenly you want to hit me instead of that healer keeping everyone alive or the DPSer whose actually hurting me".

    You got it all wrong

    In my opinion this is one thing CO definitely did better than CoH.

    Instead of pointing at someone and laughing to make them attack you...you need to punch them in the face...hard.

    Even if you have CC and CS...you still need good damage.

    You can't just hit someone with a weak attack to get agro...unless your teammates are using weak attacks as well.
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  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Still it would be nice to have a Taunt move like in CoH but with better mechanics like bumping you up on the top of the threat meters (if such a thing exists).
  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You got it all wrong

    In my opinion this is one thing CO definitely did better than CoH.

    Instead of pointing at someone and laughing to make them attack you...you need to punch them in the face...hard.

    Even if you have CC and CS...you still need good damage.

    You can't just hit someone with a weak attack to get agro...unless your teammates are using weak attacks as well.

    I understand what you're saying, but look at it from this perspective; A team of heroes come to thwart your plans. There's the typical "big guy", the glass cannon, the melee guy, a typical healer type, etc. I can see that the healer is keeping everyone alive, buffing them, and debuffing my guys. I want to take them out first. I can worry about the damage later, but as long as they keep getting healed and buffed, I cannot win. If I take out the healer, then everyone else will fall that much more easily.

    Now, an important caveat to this is that not every enemy should think so tactically. I wouldn't expect Ripper to think to go after the healer 1st - he's a dumb brute and *would* go after whom he perceives as a threat - namely the big tough looking guy. Similarly, perhaps other enemies perceive the guy shooting fire out of his hands as a major threat - since they can shrug off punches and the like.

    Regardless, the real issue is the complexity involved in having such dynamic and intelligent enemies, instead of doing a cut-paste of threat mechanics and just giving enemies different attacks and amounts of HP.
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  • rugrothrumborrugrothrumbor Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah smarter enemies is interesting. There could be ways to getting around these types of intelligent enemies. Like a healer that also has really good defenses (tank/healer?) would be healing in this scenario. Or a tank would have heals and would pretend to act like a healer to get the boss's attention. Or the boss could actually be vulnerable to some CC effects like slows, knocks or such to keep him off the healers.

    Someone with a big ego would fight the one that draws a lot of attention. That would be a simple tank and spank.

    Psionic bosses could use a CC move to try and put healers out of commission. Stuff like that.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah smarter enemies is interesting. There could be ways to getting around these types of intelligent enemies. Like a healer that also has really good defenses (tank/healer?) would be healing in this scenario. Or a tank would have heals and would pretend to act like a healer to get the boss's attention. Or the boss could actually be vulnerable to some CC effects like slows, knocks or such to keep him off the healers.

    Someone with a big ego would fight the one that draws a lot of attention. That would be a simple tank and spank.

    Psionic bosses could use a CC move to try and put healers out of commission. Stuff like that.

    Exactly! Something to mix it up and make people think. Fights that aren't always about "you tank go in first" or so-called "backpacking" where a healer just spams heals on the tank from the safety of the back line.

    I mean, imagine if the boss of a 2 minute drill *knew* that he had only to delay you in order to win? What if Viper-X instantly defaulted to fighting from 100' in the air or something? Not that I want to see all that happen, but it's what *I* would do if I were in their shoes...
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  • borg10f9borg10f9 Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I agree with some of the posters here who are saying that you don't need the classic trinity anymore. When I started playing CoH we as newbies were told that you have to have a tank, have to have a healer, etc etc...

    Later on when I was learning to be uber (kinda made it sometimes) I found that a group of like AT's often had no problem doing the tougher Task forces, even a group of defenders or controllers was more than adequate to mow through the baddies with relative ease on the hard settings, and sometimes that team could be devastating...

    CO is great in that I can make a tank that does decent damage, so I can actually feel heroic instead of just standing there. And I can actually have a high dps melee "scrapper" that can tank if needed. That makes me feel far more uber than having to rely on someone else who's tougher to distract the baddies.

    So although they are occasionally nice to have around, dedicated tanks and the like don't really help instill the feeling that you are a true SUPERhero.
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I don't mean to be rude, but I think people need to get over the dumbing down that other games foisted on us and be glad that we finally have a game that breaks those stupid pigeon-holes and allows us to build more interesting and broad-based characters.

    That being said, I think the only problem is a lack of challenging content. There are a few missions that can be a little tough, even on a team, but they are few and far between. Given tougher content, there would be more of a need to build better tactical teams. As it stands now, if you get together 5 of anything not run by complete morons and you can roflstomp pretty much anything, even on elite.

    But, as far as Tanks and Healers? No, we don't need people shoe-horned into specific roles, and that's a good thing. Remember, that means we also don't need Blasters and Controllers, either.
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  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I've been saying it for a while now, the DPS many characters can dish out is way out of scale for the game. Not everything, but definitely on some builds (eg. Epidemic). Add to that the ability to make a character virtually invulnerable to all harm (again using certain combinations of powers), and the game is basically trivialized.

    You don't need a tank to hold aggro, because no one can be hurt, or because the enemy is dead too fast to be a threat. You don't need a healer for the same reasons.

    The balance is way, way out of whack. The question is whether they will do anything about it. I'm not going to hold my breath.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It always amuses me when people make demands for "balance" when it's clear they don't really know what they're talking about or even begin to know where to start to make the freeform system "balanced".

    The answer is probably "nerf Epidemic" while completely avoiding every other variable that contributes to an Epidemic-based build being really powerful.
  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I like that I can make a character that is tank, healer, and dps all wrapped up into one. Makes the game way more fun than those other games where you have to sit around for an hour waiting to start because you need to find a healer.

    Imagine the disaster that alerts would be if you needed a trinity group to complete them... remember all the complaints about the random groups the queue puts together right after on alert hit?

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  • vitalityprimevitalityprime Posts: 478 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    smoochan wrote: »
    I like that I can make a character that is tank, healer, and dps all wrapped up into one. Makes the game way more fun than those other games where you have to sit around for an hour waiting to start because you need to find a healer.

    It also makes more sense in a comic book setting...where nearly every character is shown to be durable.
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  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Personally, I'm not of the mindset that a non-traditional game needs to stick to traditional "roles". This game aspires to what we see in comic books.

    Black Widow, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor, The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man...who was the healer?

    Jean Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, The Beast...who was the healer?

    Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash...who was the healer?

    After the healer is figured out we can move on to question number two...when was the "tank" in these groups not the guy that was both durable and could hit the "hardest"?

    I think this is one thing that CO gets right. All of the traditional roles can contribute/succeed while none are required.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,318 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Jean Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, The Beast...who was the healer?
    In fact, the X-Men didn't actually have a tank until the second iteration of the team, in Giant-Size X-Men Annual #1, when Xavier thought the team had been lost on Krakoa the Living Island. (And you thought our Monster Island was silly!) Both Colossus and the first Thunderbird qualified, although Thunderbird was more of a DPS tank. (He also illustrates the danger of trinity thought in a superhero world - when he couldn't tank as well as Colossus, or DPS as well as Wolverine, he assumed he was useless and let himself die fighting a supervillain. Fortunately, his younger brother, now going by Warpath IIRC, is a bit more reasonable...)
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  • finalslapsfinalslaps Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It would help if DPS got some way to drop aggro. That would be handy.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    finalslaps wrote: »
    It would help if DPS got some way to drop aggro. That would be handy.

    There are aggro drops, people just have to be willing to take them.

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  • finalslapsfinalslaps Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Ego Placate seems to not work. I use it while cancelling the energy builder. Nothing happens I'm still getting attacked.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    finalslaps wrote: »
    Ego Placate seems to not work. I use it while cancelling the energy builder. Nothing happens I'm still getting attacked.

    Circle of Primal Dominion is a good aggro management tool. Evasive Maneuvers advantage drops aggro, but you have to spam it a few times or not attack right away afterwards if your DPS is really high.

    Palliate's advantage wipes threat. Sigils of Radiant Protection buff stealth and at a 100ft range you will not get aggroed if you stay in them.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    finalslaps wrote: »
    Ego Placate seems to not work. I use it while cancelling the energy builder. Nothing happens I'm still getting attacked.

    Doesn't it state that the power *only* works on enemies of a certain category or lower? IIRC, the power is basically worthless as the enemies you'd want to drop aggro from are the ones the power is ineffective against...
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  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You got it all wrong

    In my opinion this is one thing CO definitely did better than CoH.

    Instead of pointing at someone and laughing to make them attack you...you need to punch them in the face...hard.

    Even if you have CC and CS...you still need good damage.

    You can't just hit someone with a weak attack to get agro...unless your teammates are using weak attacks as well.

    I think COH actually did a good job at the concept if you include some the COV archetypes and look at a few of the more subtle mechanics. I think the concept of more hybrid roles with overlap fits the superhero mold more. Some situations made crowd control of equal importance to raw damage.

    And literally "taunting" enemies fits perfectly well with getting a villain to attack you as Spiderman has often showed. It's just the oddities of game mechanics versus genre. I think both games have their positives and negatives in that.

    EDIT: I think the other major problem is listing "Healing" as opposed to a more broad "Support". Very few hero teams had an in field healer while many have at least on more crowd control oriented teammate or some of the heavy hitters had a few gimmicks they could pull of when they got creative.
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  • zazelbyzazelby Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You got it all wrong

    In my opinion this is one thing CO definitely did better than CoH.

    Instead of pointing at someone and laughing to make them attack you...you need to punch them in the face...hard.

    Except CoH had both. Brutes and Tankers had a Taunt effect on every single one of their attacks. Tankers' Taunt effect was even AoE - even if the actual attack only hit one enemy, the taunt effect still hit up to ten enemies in a sphere around the target. (Brutes' taunt just hit the target) They also had a taunt effect in one of their defensive abilities, so they could literally gather aggro by standing there.

    And, yeah, I definitely agree with the Support vs. Healing. CoH had great Support abilities - buffs, debuffs, and crowd control - to the extent where a dedicated healer was almost never necessary. Many of my characters didn't even have a self-heal and never needed one.


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  • tiresias99tiresias99 Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Bear in mind that even the "tanks" and "healers" in this game are more than capable of doing damage, and many can come within 70%-80% of the capacity of a primary damage role's output if set up properly.

    My Celestial/Darkness support hero spends most of his time DPSing thank to the advantage on Lifedrain that turns the healing it provides to me into an AoE heal. As long as a Fear debuff is up on the enemy (and I can place it there myself) I am passing 100% of incoming healing to every ally within 15 feet of me.

    He has Iniquity and Mindful Reinforcement -- both instant casts -- to patch up the melee characters for those fights when he can't step into melee range himself. The only time he really needs to stop his DPS rotation for dedicated healing is when things go REALLY wrong, and he has Empathic Healing for those moments. Otherwise, he's rotating Shadow Blast, Lifedrain, and Ebon Ruin for decent DPS.

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  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    There are aggro drops, people just have to be willing to take them.

    Everyone has access to the best aggro dump. Getting KNOCKED THE ******* OUT! :biggrin:

    or... you know... use your powers to win the fight instead... 'cause it's heroic.

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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    In fact, the X-Men didn't actually have a tank until the second iteration of the team, in Giant-Size X-Men Annual #1, when Xavier thought the team had been lost on Krakoa the Living Island. (And you thought our Monster Island was silly!) Both Colossus and the first Thunderbird qualified, although Thunderbird was more of a DPS tank. (He also illustrates the danger of trinity thought in a superhero world - when he couldn't tank as well as Colossus, or DPS as well as Wolverine, he assumed he was useless and let himself die fighting a supervillain. Fortunately, his younger brother, now going by Warpath IIRC, is a bit more reasonable...)

    Colossus and Thunderbird were BRICKS, not tanks. Entirely different critter. This is something the PnP game got right. Whereas CO made the mistake of following-the-leader and taking the WoW / CoH route and calling it a tanker.

    If people look to the source material, comic books, the true "tanker" of any team, that is, the person who can taunt the enemies, is usually the high-charisma type: like Captain America. His persuasive words can turn the enemies' heads. Of course, he's also probably not the toughest, so he has to use that taunt to guide the attacks where he wants them, rather than necessarily drawing fire to himself.

    I would say the MMORPG version of "tanker" virtually does not exist in comic books. Generally, the bad guys either attack whoever is closest (if they are dumb) or whoever is dishing the most damage (if they are smart). Or they attack the leader (if they are very smart). Usually this means that the brick, the tough guy, is actually left for last.
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  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Actually, there was a bit in a comic (I can't recall which) where a present day hero went back to WW2 to fight alongside Cap and Bucky. At one point, Cap commented that the hero didn't understand how it worked.

    Essentially, he said he was out there in bright colours leaping around and keeping the attention of the enemy on HIM while Bucky was slipping past to set explosives or otherwise accomplish the actual mission.

    That is, Cap was TANKING.
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