test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Why even have tanks and healers?
seazombie64
Posts: 114 Arc User
Are tanks and healers still relevant? In my mind the tank takes and holds aggro, while the healer works to keep the tank and the rest of the team in the fight.
A large part of the people I usually play with have so much dodge/avoidance gear they rarely get hit, Masterful Dodge to make it even harder to hit them, BCR(with RR) and Ascension in the times are taking damage. They run in Hybrid role and even though they deal massive DPS, they have no need for a tank or healer. Even those who run in Ranged DPS still have so much buffs that they don't need either a tank or healer. Bringing a tank is pointless because there is so much DPS aggro is near impossible to hold, and no one needs to be healed so either of those types of characters are useless, even in Cosmic fights, at best and in the way at worst.
Do the roles, and the powers they are allowed, need to be looked at?
Should "tanks" get even more threat generation so they have a job?
Should MD and BCR be adjusted so they are less effective for Hybrid/DPS roles so the "healers" have a use?
I honestly don't have the answer. I just know that playing either a traditional tank or healer is rather pointless, at level 40 anyway, in a team of near unhittable and self healing DPS giants. Our teams are LESS effective if someone brings a "tank" or a "healer" to the fight. It seems to me that the traditional team is dead and my 2 healers, both 40, (1 telepathy and 1 celestial), and my 2 level 40 "tanks", Ice and earth, are 2nd rate heroes.
Not trying to start some kind of war here, so please power down your flamethrowers. I am just trying to figure out why the protector and support roles are even in the game anymore. Playing a traditional tank or healer is extremely satisfying when they are needed...and frustrating when not needed. Just looking for some clarity here.
A large part of the people I usually play with have so much dodge/avoidance gear they rarely get hit, Masterful Dodge to make it even harder to hit them, BCR(with RR) and Ascension in the times are taking damage. They run in Hybrid role and even though they deal massive DPS, they have no need for a tank or healer. Even those who run in Ranged DPS still have so much buffs that they don't need either a tank or healer. Bringing a tank is pointless because there is so much DPS aggro is near impossible to hold, and no one needs to be healed so either of those types of characters are useless, even in Cosmic fights, at best and in the way at worst.
Do the roles, and the powers they are allowed, need to be looked at?
Should "tanks" get even more threat generation so they have a job?
Should MD and BCR be adjusted so they are less effective for Hybrid/DPS roles so the "healers" have a use?
I honestly don't have the answer. I just know that playing either a traditional tank or healer is rather pointless, at level 40 anyway, in a team of near unhittable and self healing DPS giants. Our teams are LESS effective if someone brings a "tank" or a "healer" to the fight. It seems to me that the traditional team is dead and my 2 healers, both 40, (1 telepathy and 1 celestial), and my 2 level 40 "tanks", Ice and earth, are 2nd rate heroes.
Not trying to start some kind of war here, so please power down your flamethrowers. I am just trying to figure out why the protector and support roles are even in the game anymore. Playing a traditional tank or healer is extremely satisfying when they are needed...and frustrating when not needed. Just looking for some clarity here.
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
so with that being said, i'd aim for the maximum potential on each, and healer being the easier to accomplish, you don't really have to worry about the team so much if they have more layers of defense, it just means that you have less work to do. same goes for tanking, although even with massive dps on those hybrids, 4 seconds of grabbing aggro can mean a world of difference in some cases. let them grab the aggro, it only means that they'll take more beating because, they're not built for tanking with all that massive dmg whether they can help it or not, it's a give and take game and you have to giveup on one thing to get another.
so all in all i'd say it balances out in the end and the holy trinity is not yet dead, it's just not what it used to be.
My build directory (work in progress)
Guide list
Freeform Builds
In loving memory of AngelofCaine.
I got a few buddies who can peel aggro away, but most pugs and buddies I can tank for. I got the advantages, and the build, just sometimes, not enough threat either way.
Deliciously nutritious!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU
For Healors and Tanks to matter moar...we need content where strategy, just in general, matters more.
Swapping aggro when your ADs are down, attacking weaker mobs first, paying attention to pulls instead of zerging everything, etc, etc.
Then again, the original and current thinking for the game may be to keep things very casual. it would be nice to at least have the option for higher difficulty.
Right now, in order to make strategy matter you either have to gimp yourself intentionally or do things that the devs clearly did not intend for you to accomplish. Solo 5-man lairs, kill Gravitar in under 2 minutes, etc.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Different game, different rules.
CO does have roles, but not Traditional/Trinity style roles.
CO doesn't have a need to "I hjeeal only for over 9000", but there sure is good to have someone with aura (ebon destruction, sentinel, etc) in the group or those sigils that debuff and so on.
DPS build can take care of itself on most/all cases, but if gets aggro, it can't do much damage.
And so on ...
Names are the same (tank, dps, support), but meaning is different.
CO is designed for Freeform builds, hybrids, 90/50 rule (can do one thing good tho not perfect, but not one-trick-pony).
CO does supports roles. It supports them very well. But not "traditional".
And while I don't really have problems regarding aggro when using Swarm, I would never say no to better threat generation.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Support and Tanks do make a difference in fights like the Gravitar, but it is rare to see much real need for them elsewhere. It seems hero power is being inflated quicker than villain power.
That said...
All my characters are "tanks" and would never lose threat unless I end up in a team with an even better tank or if I am doing it horribly wrong.
Tanks who lose threat are doing it wrong.
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are in fact playing with tanks and thinking they are mere damage dealers? I know that I personally do not have to switch over to the Tank role except for the purpose of standing inside the orange bubbles that Gravitar creates near the end.
I agree completely with piro2gen, it is better to call them Support rather than Healers, as that is what their real role is. Healing is just another form of Support.
My most fervent wish is for the inappropriate excess of healing to be reduced. Instead we should have far more choice of and much more effective control powers that would allow players to reduce the amount of damage taken and not merely require us to take the hit and heal after. This would be far more fun and appropriate for the comic book genre.
If I understand the general sentiment from everyone's replies, the roles "should" be something like this:
DPS: fits my preconception..deal a lot of damage
Protector: Tank is now protector, should go for crowd control. Slows, stuns, holds, debuffs
Support: Healer is now support, should go for buffs, removing debuffs, aura's and healing.
Seems that I need to shift my expectations. @reddestshirt: I am not playing with "intentional" tanks. They are designed and tweaked for maximum dps, around 1 or 2 powers, and everything else is focused around their survivability and energy management. They are effective at tanking without trying to be.
At lower levels and/or with most pugs I see the more traditional trinity being more necessary, but at the higher levels it starts to shift more to the protector and support.
Thanks everyone for your insights! I'll be heading to the PH to retcon my "tanks" in to protectors and my "healers" in to support. While I think the traditional trinity is a lot of fun...I can adapt my paradigm to fit my current multiverse.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
You got it all wrong
In my opinion this is one thing CO definitely did better than CoH.
Instead of pointing at someone and laughing to make them attack you...you need to punch them in the face...hard.
Even if you have CC and CS...you still need good damage.
You can't just hit someone with a weak attack to get agro...unless your teammates are using weak attacks as well.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
I understand what you're saying, but look at it from this perspective; A team of heroes come to thwart your plans. There's the typical "big guy", the glass cannon, the melee guy, a typical healer type, etc. I can see that the healer is keeping everyone alive, buffing them, and debuffing my guys. I want to take them out first. I can worry about the damage later, but as long as they keep getting healed and buffed, I cannot win. If I take out the healer, then everyone else will fall that much more easily.
Now, an important caveat to this is that not every enemy should think so tactically. I wouldn't expect Ripper to think to go after the healer 1st - he's a dumb brute and *would* go after whom he perceives as a threat - namely the big tough looking guy. Similarly, perhaps other enemies perceive the guy shooting fire out of his hands as a major threat - since they can shrug off punches and the like.
Regardless, the real issue is the complexity involved in having such dynamic and intelligent enemies, instead of doing a cut-paste of threat mechanics and just giving enemies different attacks and amounts of HP.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Someone with a big ego would fight the one that draws a lot of attention. That would be a simple tank and spank.
Psionic bosses could use a CC move to try and put healers out of commission. Stuff like that.
Grappling/Wrestling Power Set Suggestion 2012-2013
How a Wrestling Power Set Can Work
Exactly! Something to mix it up and make people think. Fights that aren't always about "you tank go in first" or so-called "backpacking" where a healer just spams heals on the tank from the safety of the back line.
I mean, imagine if the boss of a 2 minute drill *knew* that he had only to delay you in order to win? What if Viper-X instantly defaulted to fighting from 100' in the air or something? Not that I want to see all that happen, but it's what *I* would do if I were in their shoes...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Later on when I was learning to be uber (kinda made it sometimes) I found that a group of like AT's often had no problem doing the tougher Task forces, even a group of defenders or controllers was more than adequate to mow through the baddies with relative ease on the hard settings, and sometimes that team could be devastating...
CO is great in that I can make a tank that does decent damage, so I can actually feel heroic instead of just standing there. And I can actually have a high dps melee "scrapper" that can tank if needed. That makes me feel far more uber than having to rely on someone else who's tougher to distract the baddies.
So although they are occasionally nice to have around, dedicated tanks and the like don't really help instill the feeling that you are a true SUPERhero.
That being said, I think the only problem is a lack of challenging content. There are a few missions that can be a little tough, even on a team, but they are few and far between. Given tougher content, there would be more of a need to build better tactical teams. As it stands now, if you get together 5 of anything not run by complete morons and you can roflstomp pretty much anything, even on elite.
But, as far as Tanks and Healers? No, we don't need people shoe-horned into specific roles, and that's a good thing. Remember, that means we also don't need Blasters and Controllers, either.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
You don't need a tank to hold aggro, because no one can be hurt, or because the enemy is dead too fast to be a threat. You don't need a healer for the same reasons.
The balance is way, way out of whack. The question is whether they will do anything about it. I'm not going to hold my breath.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
The answer is probably "nerf Epidemic" while completely avoiding every other variable that contributes to an Epidemic-based build being really powerful.
Imagine the disaster that alerts would be if you needed a trinity group to complete them... remember all the complaints about the random groups the queue puts together right after on alert hit?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It also makes more sense in a comic book setting...where nearly every character is shown to be durable.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Black Widow, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor, The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man...who was the healer?
Jean Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, The Beast...who was the healer?
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash...who was the healer?
After the healer is figured out we can move on to question number two...when was the "tank" in these groups not the guy that was both durable and could hit the "hardest"?
I think this is one thing that CO gets right. All of the traditional roles can contribute/succeed while none are required.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
There are aggro drops, people just have to be willing to take them.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Circle of Primal Dominion is a good aggro management tool. Evasive Maneuvers advantage drops aggro, but you have to spam it a few times or not attack right away afterwards if your DPS is really high.
Palliate's advantage wipes threat. Sigils of Radiant Protection buff stealth and at a 100ft range you will not get aggroed if you stay in them.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Doesn't it state that the power *only* works on enemies of a certain category or lower? IIRC, the power is basically worthless as the enemies you'd want to drop aggro from are the ones the power is ineffective against...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I think COH actually did a good job at the concept if you include some the COV archetypes and look at a few of the more subtle mechanics. I think the concept of more hybrid roles with overlap fits the superhero mold more. Some situations made crowd control of equal importance to raw damage.
And literally "taunting" enemies fits perfectly well with getting a villain to attack you as Spiderman has often showed. It's just the oddities of game mechanics versus genre. I think both games have their positives and negatives in that.
EDIT: I think the other major problem is listing "Healing" as opposed to a more broad "Support". Very few hero teams had an in field healer while many have at least on more crowd control oriented teammate or some of the heavy hitters had a few gimmicks they could pull of when they got creative.
-Sterga
Except CoH had both. Brutes and Tankers had a Taunt effect on every single one of their attacks. Tankers' Taunt effect was even AoE - even if the actual attack only hit one enemy, the taunt effect still hit up to ten enemies in a sphere around the target. (Brutes' taunt just hit the target) They also had a taunt effect in one of their defensive abilities, so they could literally gather aggro by standing there.
And, yeah, I definitely agree with the Support vs. Healing. CoH had great Support abilities - buffs, debuffs, and crowd control - to the extent where a dedicated healer was almost never necessary. Many of my characters didn't even have a self-heal and never needed one.
"It is unthinkable. But such is the nature of villainy, don't you think? To do the unthinkable, to challenge the impossible, to conquer all before you and make destiny your own." - Ghost Widow
And that's why I like villains.
My Celestial/Darkness support hero spends most of his time DPSing thank to the advantage on Lifedrain that turns the healing it provides to me into an AoE heal. As long as a Fear debuff is up on the enemy (and I can place it there myself) I am passing 100% of incoming healing to every ally within 15 feet of me.
He has Iniquity and Mindful Reinforcement -- both instant casts -- to patch up the melee characters for those fights when he can't step into melee range himself. The only time he really needs to stop his DPS rotation for dedicated healing is when things go REALLY wrong, and he has Empathic Healing for those moments. Otherwise, he's rotating Shadow Blast, Lifedrain, and Ebon Ruin for decent DPS.
@Tiresias
Tiresias: Celestial/Darkness (Support)
Ravish: Bestial/Might/Unarmed (Tank)
Everyone has access to the best aggro dump. Getting KNOCKED THE ******* OUT! :biggrin:
or... you know... use your powers to win the fight instead... 'cause it's heroic.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Colossus and Thunderbird were BRICKS, not tanks. Entirely different critter. This is something the PnP game got right. Whereas CO made the mistake of following-the-leader and taking the WoW / CoH route and calling it a tanker.
If people look to the source material, comic books, the true "tanker" of any team, that is, the person who can taunt the enemies, is usually the high-charisma type: like Captain America. His persuasive words can turn the enemies' heads. Of course, he's also probably not the toughest, so he has to use that taunt to guide the attacks where he wants them, rather than necessarily drawing fire to himself.
I would say the MMORPG version of "tanker" virtually does not exist in comic books. Generally, the bad guys either attack whoever is closest (if they are dumb) or whoever is dishing the most damage (if they are smart). Or they attack the leader (if they are very smart). Usually this means that the brick, the tough guy, is actually left for last.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Essentially, he said he was out there in bright colours leaping around and keeping the attention of the enemy on HIM while Bucky was slipping past to set explosives or otherwise accomplish the actual mission.
That is, Cap was TANKING.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521