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No heals tournament?
smoochan
Posts: 2,564 Arc User
I'm interested in some impressions from people about what you think would happen in a tournament where no heals or bubbles are allowed.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
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Also what about heal advantages, like endorphin rush etc etc. IMO it's just too much work for what would end up being a stale tournament.
Now what you could do is ban certain heals, mainly resurgence, and essentially take away peoples get out of low hp free card. That would make battles more fun seeing as when people get low, they'll actually panic again.
The thing is there are two things that make pvp fun, and this is true for any pvp game. First people need to die, and second you need to give people incentive to press forward and attack. Otherwise everyone just turtles because honestly who the hell wants to lose?
No offense taken. I'm just asking what people think would happen in such a tournament, such as what sort of strategies folks would utilize if they were challenged to pvp without heals.
The real question is if anyone can put aside their egos and personal agendas and actually just have a conversation about this.
I'm honestly surprised so far, I was expecting the typical "show us on the doll where the bad healer hurt you" nonsense where someone assumes I lost a duel or something. Now I'm wondering if I'll be surprised by people actually having a willingness to think outside their safety zone; I know, it's quite a threatening concept
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Honestly, I'd be more interested in no travel powers/no stealth duels...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
As for a no TP tourney, that would indeed be pretty fun imo.
I would actually be more interested in a no Nailed To The Ground tournament; assuming some solution could be found for the ground melee vs ranged flyer issue.
So far my theory is proving true... this game has no real defensive play other than heals.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
What the game needs is a solution that isn't a panic solution
This game is what it is. The devs here usually won't cater to what you want the game to be, whether they mean to break things or not. You either like it or you don't, adapt or die. I like this game because I don't have to beg treacherous healers to save me. I can heal myself and kill everything in the room instead of just being pigeonholed into one class or one role.
I also like this game for that reason, I'm not a fan of the tank/dps/heal system in the least, and I think if anything it needs to move further away from that sort of role-based gameplay.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
No movement tournament.
Don't move!
No Stats, no powers, only Clobber I tell you.
No EB either. We all just take a seat and do finger paints and macaroni art.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Or Rock Paper Scissors.
Better yet, have a bubble tournament...or a blocking tournament.
On a more serious note:
My friend and I regularly have "Knock Battles". Seeing as we are both might based chars it is hilarious, I'm sure the tournament could be split into melee KB and Ranged KB, perhaps to see who can fly out of the bubble first. Blocking is disallowed as well as flight and teleport, superjump and all other ground based powers are accepted?
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But for cereal, I'm (amazingly) with Lucy on this one, I'll stay out of the DPS races, PvP is now only about Alphastriking your desired target down while incapacitating them, and/or preventing heals. So yeah, while Healing is a valuable component of PvP, It'll really just make a bunch or Dmg. Resist Hybrid Spikers. if you take out another component of regeneration.
Good luck with the tourney tho.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
Don't be amazed, nothing I've said is all that hard to understand.
[Mighty Kick] I win.
Oh, is someone planning another tournament? Where and when?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Self-healing is one of the things that makes this game as dynamic as it is. It also makes much of this game a lot of fun. You don't need a dedicated healer on your team, plus there are things like auto-targeting and statistics that make things a bit less strategic without things like self-heals.
I did take part in a tournement that you were allowed to use 3 moves, energy builder included and passive did not count towards the limit, everything else did and it was enjoyable. Because if you wanted you could choose a heal power that takes away another power.
Again, my theory proves true... the only real defensive play in this game is healing. It's no surprise pvp here is as one-dimensional as it is... it only has one dimension to work off of.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
To make a true pvp game that requires skill, the entire combat system would have to be overhauled into something much more challenging; there would need to be more things to rely on for defense besides healing and shields or active defense; new AI would have to be developed, and the game would be very different than it is now. The problem with that is just about everything that we like about this game and its combat system would be gone. Things like auto-targeting, blocks, and block disablers just wouldn't do.
People always act like this game is all about builds... and killing. Even some of the players who are supposedly elite think that two people fighting each other with the same build will result in a draw. Many of these types of people are good at one aspect of the game (missions, alerts, BASH, etc.) then they go into other game types and end up dead or dying or they have no idea why their team just got wiped by one player.
According to conventional wisdom, a full team of "elite pvp" copybuilds should never be defeated by one player zombie with a "sub-par" anti-pvp build. In reality, this doesn't happen as long as the player is able to outsmart the entire team. In any battle, be it Chess, warfare, or Champions, the smartest player wins, even though it may seem like only a handful of strategies will be the best.
I'm glad you agree with what I said.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Here a better way an only Smoochan can move and attack tournament.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
These 3 have something in common: They require more or less luck to apply / spam. In a tournament that requires no heals, it's the one who'll be able to dodge/crit/knock the most who will win fights. And it's actually what's happening when two magnitude 11 FotM's fight eachother.
There's also the matter of cooldown reduction, and Active Defenses.
After you watched me knock myself out accidentally running into somebody's knee cap... the tournament wouldn't be very interesting.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Pretty much. Healing is the only thing that's dependable enough to be used defensively.
Generally you can't use knocks to defend yourself, because anyone you need to defend yourself against won't get knocked reliably. Crits and dodges are both not reliable, and in fact you have no control over them whatsoever, other than using MD and EM to push it up to 100.
A lot of the stuff you mentioned has less to do with defensive play, and more to do with defensive building. Fiddling with builds and mods is fun, sure, but it would be nice if there were more actions that could be taken during actual play to defend yourself. As it is now, both combatants throw on their suits of armor and then whack at each other until someone drops dead, with neither of them bothering to block or parry because those sorts of actions don't exist.
It's a whole lot of healing yourself while waiting for RNG to provide an opening.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
And I think my theory of you not having effective pvp skills or builds or tactics is true.
If your request to have a no heals pvp tournament is motivated by your belief that there is NO REAL defense play, then I am motivated to think that you don't understand what REAL defense play is.
If PvP is at any point a form of a battle of attrition, then defensive skills and tactics, to include but not limited to healing, are normal. The expression REAL DEFENSE PLAY even infers that DEFENSE is exercised to a greater level, thus implicating that healing, to mitigate damage taken (along with other tactics) is used.
The general pvp'ers do not seem to complain that their opponents have heals. They win because they overcome their opponents defenses (or their offense) in a duel.
Better PvPers also win by using a combination of defensive tactics in a fight. I do see real Defense in duels, especially when I watch or fight the best PvPers in the game. I have the eye and the intuition to see some well used defensive tactics (other than healing) executed in fights.
Even if they are not the best, I rarely see players complain about others healing. When I have seen players complain of others healing, it has been from ATs who have no real healing powers who fight freeforms and then complain the freeform is using heals.
My experience is from playing in PvP in the 3 months I have been playing this game. I am really new to the game and I am still learning.
But I had played City of Heroes since 2005 until it closed, and, modesty aside, I was among the top pvpers, and heals played a role in defense in pvp. Real defense is seen in a combination of tactics, maneuvers, and strategy as a whole. Again, PvPers in general did not complain about opponents having heals, the better duelist won by overcoming the opponent defenses or offense to include healing.
Guild Wars PvP, a game very dear to me, and IMO the best game for PvP, also incorporates defense at all levels which include healing.
When you understand defense as a whole you will see that using no heals and executing "REAL DEFENSE" do not go together in games where there is healing available in PvP.
Savaged Abyss
Voltak Crush
Nikaka Keda
Power Wedgy
The MUST
Voltak
Altered Egos SG
Outcasts SG
You could prove me wrong if you could give me one example of someone winning a duel while not using any heals, against a competent pvper who is using heals. This would prove that there is defensive play in this game that doesn't involve heals.
So far, this example proves elusive.
Of course, I suspect that the problem here is that you're misinterpreting this thread as being a complaint about others using healing.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
If your request to have a no heals pvp tournament is motivated by your belief that there is NO REAL defense play, then I am motivated to think that you don't understand what REAL defense play is.
If PvP is at any point a form of a battle of attrition, then defensive skills and tactics, to include but not limited to healing, are normal. The expression REAL DEFENSE PLAY even infers that DEFENSE is exercised to a greater level, thus implicating that healing, to mitigate damage taken (along with other tactics) is used.
All MMOs with PVP in which heals are available to the characters will include healing along with all other defensive tactics, tools, strategies, terrain or maps, and other things available to the player.
REAL defense play and no heals DO NOT GO TOGETHER in PvP in MMOs in which heals are available to the players to take.
A defensive tool or tactic is a defensive tool or tactic, using it is exercising defense.
And in CO pvp, defensive play consists entirely of self healing. This is not the case in all MMOs.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Number-wise a defiance ruin tank vs a glass cannon fc.
Defiance Ruin
367 Con 10304 hp
15% Defense Penetration
Overall Damage resistance is 150%
Ebon Ruin 661-2347 (For easy money 700-2400)
Conviction 1401
BCR 259 (RR=259)
42% Critical Chance with 100% Critical Severity
50% Dodge Chance 60% Avoidance
Glass Cannon
105 Con 7367 Hp
60% Defense penetration
Overall Damage resistance is 30%
Force Cascade 2234-9525 (For easy money 2000-9500)
35% Critical Chance with 75% Critical Severity
40% Dodge Chance 70% Avoidance
.67 Ruin Tapped No Critical 609
.67 Ruin Tapped No Critical BCRDebuff 548
.67 FC Tapped No Critical 1053
.67 Ruin Tapped No Critical Dodge 183
.67 Ruin Tapped No Critical Dodge BCRDebuff 164
.67 FC Tapped No Critical Dodge 421
.67 FC Tapped Critical 1842
.67 Ruin Tapped Critical 1217
.67 Ruin Tapped Critical BCRDebuff 1096
.67 FC Tapped Critical Dodge 737
.67 Ruin Tapped Critical Dodge 366
.67 Ruin Tapped Critical Dodge BCRDebuff 328
.67+2.33 FC FullyCharged No Critical 5000
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged No Critical 2087
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged No Critical BCRDebuff 1878
.67+2.33 FC FullyCharged No Critical Dodge 2000
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged No Critical Dodge 626
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged No Critical Dodge BCRDebuff 564
.67+2.33 FC FullyCharged Critical 8750
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged Critical 4174
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged Critical BCRDebuff 3767
.67+2.33 FC FullyCharged Critical Dodge 3500
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged Critical Dodge 1252
.67+1.83 Ruin FullyCharged Critical Dodge BCRDebuff 1127
3 Recharge Conviction No Critical +1401 Hp
3 Recharge Conviction Critical +2802 Hp
Every 2 BCR +249 Hp Dodge +249 Hp
Now here is the part where you take numbers from the list above and try to make a 'fair' representation of how the fight went down and how the glass cannon (without any heals) won.
The real question is, what defensive actions did the glass cannon take during the fight to ensure the win?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Ask yourself that question I just provided the numbers. Toss in some human error or knock-back if you like...it would be impossible for the glass cannon to take down that ruin tank otherwise.
Hell I was being generous by using my pts numbers for the glass cannon and I didn't even add a form for the defiance ruin user. Also the use for energy is left out...if I factored in what I left out the glass cannon wouldn't even touch his opposition. Also variance and 'half' charges were left out.
My answer to the question is "Once you take heals out of the picture, there are no defensive actions to be taken in pvp".
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
And I was proving you right by giving two 'builds'. Though I guess giving the defiance ruin the heals is a bit op...then again a 16625 force cascade with 60% defense penetration is a tough cookie to swallow....thankfully the defiance ruin has enough hp and resistance to swallow an un-dodged one...though in the 3 seconds a ruin could do 5391 and then shoot up with conviction...
So after 3 seconds if no hits were dodged and all powers were given a critical return:
FC would have 1976 hp
Defiance Ruin would have 1554 hp but then get a critical conviction bringing it up to 4356 hp
Now, the defiance ruin COULD spam ruin taps and hope for the best OR slap on bcr and get some hp back before ruin spamming
The FC has exactly two seconds to drop 4356 hp which is almost impossible. If and only if the Defiance Ruin was knocked would the FC have just enough time to drop the opponent with another fully charged critical FC...if dodged then the fc would have to chance a few taps before being ruined to death.
And I thank you for that
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Anyone who has serious and solid pvp experience should understand the premise of a no-healing tourney.
In general pvp - experienced players aren't going to complain about healing (usually, except for the whiny and wannabes).
However, the game mechanics allow for some very painful long-winded fights which is why ebon ruin (for the heal debuff) was a mainstay for pvp when I left - taking an opponent down to a sliver means little if they can heal right back to full almost instantaneously.
A no heals tourney is basically like AT pvp without the AT limitation. AT pvp was far less monotonous and NO AT has the survivability of a properly pvp built freeform (simply put they don't take forever and a day or special tricks to kill).
On the lighter side, kudos to you to entering the pvp fray - considering how few there were when I left, new blood is always good.
Where does Regen come under these rules?
Brick_McDuggins in game.
Every 3 seconds you gain a small-large heal depending on how much damage you obtained prior to the heal. Having someone smack you with trauma you would heal for less thus you die faster.
That was the only point of taking Regen: Overstack it with other forms of healing. Take in account that the slight defense boost is rather meaningless and that you get nothing else but constant healing and.. you'd also be prone to large spikes, depending of the allowed mobility.
Aren't you doing the same anyways?