Kind of funny. The people who disagree with the OP have can definitely be viewed as rude in there responses, and the OP can definitely be viewed as single minded. Saying that anyone in this thread acted civil is kind of pointless, because civil is really a matter of opinion.
So lets all get off that high horse and stop pointing fingers at other people when no one here is perfect by any mean, even when used lightly. People take the right to be offended to serious...
If you and others had tried to drive home a point for 21 pages and it wasn't being taken into account, I'm pretty sure you wouldnt remain civil for long.
Civility is not generally a matter of opinion, there is a definition for it and the majority of people on the forums know how to behave and not to insult other people. Insults only come when someone is fed up with driving a point home OR if they feel someone else is being thickheaded.
Do you feel offended by anthing you have read in this thread? If so, evaluate why. If it is because someone has directed a specific threat or something at you?
Rudeness is also a matter of opinion, for some people that is just how their specific writing style comes across as harsh and overbearing when they are simply sharing thier point of view.
An example is when I was debating with another forum member about a certain passive, he said something and I took offense until it was explained what he actually meant.
I am nearly insulting you for failing to see and acknowledge the opinions of others. So far, you have provided your reasons yet you brush off the counter arguments of others.
Lot's of people have made their own reasons clear why they don't agree with you and yet i have seen you not even taken the courtesy of replying to them.
All of your complaints comes from the shortcoming of your own playing style and builds.
^ These two posts scream QFT, I'm sure may others do too.
Let me just say...if someone points something out to you when multiple people agree with what has been pointed out and repeat it to you, you dont -have- to listen but it is pretty lame if you don't.
If they haven't presented me with an argument I find persuasive, why would I abandon my own position?
No one feels as if they are loosing an arguement. It can't be an arguement when the opposing party doesnt process what they have said it becomes as futile as throwing a small lump of icecream at a brick wall in an attempt to knock it down.
Perhaps "losing" is the wrong word. They've failed to convince me I'm wrong. That doesn't give them the right to insult, condescend or deride me.
Disagreeablilty on your part came when you wanted to nerf the DPS element of the game because you couldnt fire off a few powers in an Alert. That right there is/was the essence of your initial arguement. When others and I pointed this out, you then switched your focus to game balance. Which from reading the original OP was not the intended direction. The intent of the OP was to get DPS nerfed so that "everyone" could participate in Alerts, when no one agreed with you and gave you simple tactics like targetting the boss to overcome this isssue you had with Alerts you dont seem to have taken that into account and continue to chat about game balance based on one power you have seen. If you dislike Epidemic so much don't use it. Simple. If you want to keep high DPS out of your alerts, form a pre made team with a bunch of Radiant/Mind AT's so that you can fire off your powers.
I think you're mistaking the word "disagreeable" for "debatable." My opinion is indeed "disagreeable" insofar as you can disagree with it. It is not disagreeable because it is insulting, rude or in any way an attack on anyone.
And to make your case even worse you previously stated that you were leaving the game anyway.
So why you'd want to ruin the main playstyle of CO then run off, makes alot of sense actually and is very logical....said no one ever. :rolleyes:
Again, irrelevant and erroneous. I'm leaving the game BECAUSE of problems like this. If they addressed the balance issues I am seeing, I wouldn't be leaving again.
From my point of view DPS will not be nerfed anytime soon, perhaps it is time to bring other styles of play up to speed instead. Better and easier threat generation in Tank Role, allowing them to override DPS threat generation (as suggested by SilverSpar) for example.
I don't disagree that nothing will be done. Precious little ever gets done these days if they can't put it on the store in some way. I also agree that there may be more pressing issues to deal with.
If anything which needs to be modified it is the passive Pestilence. I'd say largely that passive is to blame for Infernal being quite powerful, but that is just my own opinion.
That could be. I haven't actually tried building a character with these powers and evaluated it myself. Perhaps I'll do that, it's not really fair to criticize something I haven't closely examined.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Some people are triggering off the original post on the forum and some threads that followed...
Its difficult when a thread gets long to really want to read everything.
The OP has responded many times to what is being said if you look back...and has acknowledged what others have said.
If you go back you will see the OP clarified his position and is disapointed with the way the Alerts work....but feels that the issue is not something that is such a major concern that it should be worked on in exclusion to everything else.
But interestignly enough....the topic has struck a cord with many players.....the one statement of "too much DPS" has really grabbed many players' attention.
But if you read the entire thread you will see....that the OP and many posters inthis thread are in agreement the issue isnt too much damage or for that matter too much of one style of play....its that they want options....to make the Alerts something more then what they are....
As some players feel they need a better reward...others feel the Alert is too simplistic in its design...while others still....want options to increase the difficulty..to make their higher levels have more meaning.
I hope that sums up the major points of this thread....
Oh and the latest posts have been trigger posts based off the orignal thread starter and a few at the end.....
(<_< am beggining to feel like the person who made that funny youtube video showing what wikileaks was talking about)
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
I think you're mistaking the word "disagreeable" for "debatable." My opinion is indeed "disagreeable" insofar as you can disagree with it. It is not disagreeable because it is insulting, rude or in any way an attack on anyone.
Disagreeable has more than one meaning. Using the word disagreeable with regard to your request/suggestion, could mean that they find it to be contrary to their tastes and liking, repugnant and/or offensive. I find anchovies to be disagreeable, especially when fried by my roommate. That does not mean I don't see eye to eye with the anchovies, or feel they have been insulting (except perhaps to my olfactory).
Not that I hold that opinion about your suggestion myself, but the thread has gone far afield from the topic and I am hoping to lay the "disagreeable" discussion about disagree-ability to rest.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
If they haven't presented me with an argument I find persuasive, why would I abandon my own position?
Perhaps "losing" is the wrong word. They've failed to convince me I'm wrong. That doesn't give them the right to insult, condescend or deride me.
What about the valid argument of NOT doing alerts is not persuasive? It's like that you don't even know how to play this game without them. I sure miss those days when people actually had to play missions to level up.
I think you're mistaking the word "disagreeable" for "debatable." My opinion is indeed "disagreeable" insofar as you can disagree with it. It is not disagreeable because it is insulting, rude or in any way an attack on anyone.
Looks rather like stubborness to me. Also how many people do actually even agree with you?
If i want to burn down a goverment building for valid reasons but other people don't agree with me, does that mean i am still not wrong?
Again, irrelevant and erroneous. I'm leaving the game BECAUSE of problems like this. If they addressed the balance issues I am seeing, I wouldn't be leaving again.
Well good bye then and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
That could be. I haven't actually tried building a character with these powers and evaluated it myself. Perhaps I'll do that, it's not really fair to criticize something I haven't closely examined.
Well that is one of the more sensible things that i have read from you.
Honestly, I am pretty satisfied with the current dps system.
I also come across the situation where one or two players wiped out the whole gang of enemies before I reach them. After I have realized their dps, I quickly move to another team of enemies which are far way from them. Usually there are 3 to 5 teams of enemies in an alert. With their dps, I save a lot of time to accomplish an alert. I don't mean that I want to be lazy or I am taking advantage on their great dps, but I try to earn as much quetonite as I can in shortest time so that I have more time to complete my real life stuff.
Also, when a level 40 player is properly geared, he/she might be as powerful as level 60(like someone mentioned earlier). But that is the dps we needed for Gravitar Rampage and Shadow Destroyer in Nemesis Confrontation and etc. Moreover, The dev team try to come up with something like those level 60 Mega-D invasion. In Gravitar Rampage, if a dps is the only one survive, he/she usually get killed before able to reduce 10% of Gravitar's hp or even being one shotted before doing any damage.
To me, it is fine with me.
Also, I am always doing Nemcon and Gravitar(almost everyday), so I would like to see those super dps in my team such as those freeforms who use Electric powerset, supernatural powerset which can wipe out gang of enemies fast. Also, the great dps really helps alot to reduce the burden of tanks who try to tank Gravitar for the team.
Ah, insults. The last refuge of those that feel they're losing an argument.
I have understood what others have said. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. The difference is that I can disagree without being disagreeable.
First I didn't see that as an insult - when just about everyone has posted a view opposing yours with facts to back them up - and you choosing to disagree in light of that - I figured they were truly going over your head.
Simply put, you lack the knowledge to be making such blanketed statements about there being too much dps when your only frame of reference is clearly lacking.
As someone who is not even active (as in no longer playing) I know I've got far more in depth working knowledge of the game mechanics.
You are choosing to disagree with the vast majority not out of logic, but an overwhelming lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You're seemingly under the impression or hold the belief that everything and everyone should perform around the same level - people have already clearly shown why that is not and should never be the case.
Being upset that you can't go "Ha-Do-Ken" with a massive charge-up on low ranking mobs doesn't solidify your case - it just merely draws attention to your lack of skill and knowledge.
The OP has responded many times to what is being said if you look back...and has acknowledged what others have said.
If you go back you will see the OP clarified his position and is disapointed with the way the Alerts work....but feels that the issue is not something that is such a major concern that it should be worked on in exclusion to everything else.
But interestignly enough....the topic has struck a cord with many players.....the one statement of "too much DPS" has really grabbed many players' attention.
I have to agree. He has come across as willing to hear other people out, and it feels like no one will give him a break. Even if I strongly disagree with some of his points, he seems to be keeping it civil.
He's not changing his mind, and that's ok lol. That's what he believes in. People seem to get all wadded up because he won't change his stance. I wonder what would have happened if George Washington would have just agreed with Great Britain or the people of France would have decided that having an Absolute Monarchy was ok.
Ok maybe those are stretched examples, but they are relevant...
I have to agree. He has come across as willing to hear other people out, and it feels like no one will give him a break. Even if I strongly disagree with some of his points, he seems to be keeping it civil.
He's not changing his mind, and that's ok lol. That's what he believes in. People seem to get all wadded up because he won't change his stance. I wonder what would have happened if George Washington would have just agreed with Great Britain or the people of France would have decided that having an Absolute Monarchy was ok.
Ok maybe those are stretched examples, but they are relevant...
The way I see it is pretty much how Secksegai put it. He's making unsubstantiated claims like "Epidemic kills trash in GRABs in 2 seconds", except I haven't seen any Epidemic on any character kill a Tommygun or PSI Agent in 2 seconds solo, not have I found it mathematically possible to do so.
He is also using the very narrow frame of reference of Alerts for his argument when they are clearly not designed as challenging group content.
The problem with sticking to what you believe in is that you need evidence that you are right. Otherwise you're just kind of running around telling everyone the world is flat, and saying "I disagree" to anyone who tells you otherwise.
I probably should have known better after some of the legendary flame wars I inadvertantly provoked on the COH forums over the years than to post some thoughts without actual evidence beyond my own experiences.
Thus, I will suspend my comments until I have made some empirical observations that I can provide. I'll try making a character with the powers I've been commenting on (though, my level will be limited to less than 30, so the tests may be a little skewed...)
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
If they haven't presented me with an argument I find persuasive, why would I abandon my own position?
Perhaps looking at matters from another angle is what is needed. But I'm not asking you to abandon your position, I know full well what it is like to charge a power and then before it's fully charged your target is gone. Stick to your guns if you want, I have nothing against that at all.
Perhaps "losing" is the wrong word. They've failed to convince me I'm wrong. That doesn't give them the right to insult, condescend or deride me.
Of course it doesn't, but people tend to get upset when a point is being driven in and its not being seen. If the subject was open gameplay rather than Alerts then most people would agree but since in Alerts you need to be...ALERT, which can mean fast or acting in a hastened manner, charge attacks arent usually favoured unless on boss.
I think you're mistaking the word "disagreeable" for "debatable." My opinion is indeed "disagreeable" insofar as you can disagree with it. It is not disagreeable because it is insulting, rude or in any way an attack on anyone.
You are incorrect here, I know what both words mean and thier definitions. Your stance on this matter has made you shift your arguement to an almost entirely different level/topic, the topic of DPS being too much in general and in open world. THAT is disagreeable. And this thread can be seen as an attack on DPSers especially Epidemic users. And I am already familiar with your dislike/hatred of that power, which could well extend to those who use it. So either way it seems like an attack, and is therefore disagreeable by your or my definition.
Again, irrelevant and erroneous. I'm leaving the game BECAUSE of problems like this. If they addressed the balance issues I am seeing, I wouldn't be leaving again.
I think you might want to look at what you originally quoted then look back to a post about you leaving CO. You seem to say you are leaving...alot. If you are leaving then stay true to your word. If being unable to fire your charged powers in an alert because someone uses DPS powers is going to make you leave then >_>...IMO that is a little petty. DPS is DPS and is very powerful. If I for example made a thread saying Too Much Healing and argued that healers were dreadfully OP and were sucking the "challenge" out of this game and not allowing me to die or take too much damage, I'd be told where to clear off. Healers and DPSers do their specialised jobs, i.e. healing or high damage per sec. Just because they are good at it doesnt mean they need to be crippled for the sake of "balance". As others have already pointed out to you charged powers were always less efficient than maintains, for mob clearing etc, even spamming charged can be put to a greater effect.
Effectively you are leaving this game because Players running optimised builds can wipe mobs faster than you and you feel this is a balance issue.
It's similar to me saying: "I want Invuln to be nerfed because people with Invuln can survive longer than my PFF char, therefore this is a balance issue, fix this now or I will leave."
Needless to say most people will tell me to just leave.
I don't disagree that nothing will be done. Precious little ever gets done these days if they can't put it on the store in some way. I also agree that there may be more pressing issues to deal with. That could be. I haven't actually tried building a character with these powers and evaluated it myself. Perhaps I'll do that, it's not really fair to criticize something I haven't closely examined.
@Highlighted: Good now you are seeing the flipside or starting to whenever you decide to run a pestilence toon. DPS has sacrafices to make like less defense etc. Pestilence is an OP passive from what I can see in terms of secondary effects and primary effects too.
Your claim of an Epidemic build rubbing out a GRAB group in 2 secs is..not believable. Period. Unless they were super super boosted by 3 AoPM's running with Ego Surge + Nimble Mind + High CON and INT primary with defense penetration plus a ton of other variables..I cannot see this being possible.
I probably should have known better after some of the legendary flame wars I inadvertantly provoked on the COH forums over the years than to post some thoughts without actual evidence beyond my own experiences.
Thus, I will suspend my comments until I have made some empirical observations that I can provide. I'll try making a character with the powers I've been commenting on (though, my level will be limited to less than 30, so the tests may be a little skewed...)
Nice to hear. I think anyone else reading this post will agree you should do this too. I know from past experience posting on forums without some quantitative data can get you burnt...so IMO this was a wise move but perhaps a little late but a wise move nonetheless.
Nice to hear. I think anyone else reading this post will agree you should do this too. I know from past experience posting on forums without some quantitative data can get you burnt...so IMO this was a wise move but perhaps a little late but a wise move nonetheless.
You should have seen some of the flame wars that surrounded me on the CoH forums. I still shake my head at some of them. Over there, I was called Ultimo_.
Of course, in most cases, the things I said usually turned out to be correct. We'll see what happens here.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
You should have seen some of the flame wars that surrounded me on the CoH forums. I still shake my head at some of them. Over there, I was called Ultimo_.
Of course, in most cases, the things I said usually turned out to be correct. We'll see what happens here.
For this case, I personally think that the current dps system is fine cause dps does not only matter for alerts. The great dps is very important in many cases such as Takofanes, level 60 Mega-D invasion, Gravitar rampage, therakiel temple with elite difficulty,etc.
I probably should have known better after some of the legendary flame wars I inadvertantly provoked on the COH forums over the years than to post some thoughts without actual evidence beyond my own experiences.
Thus, I will suspend my comments until I have made some empirical observations that I can provide. I'll try making a character with the powers I've been commenting on (though, my level will be limited to less than 30, so the tests may be a little skewed...)
People thought for centuries that the world was flat - because that was their personal experience.
Without a single 40 to your name, let alone a complete lack of experience with the myriad of powers and combinations possible, where exactly do you see yourself qualified to be making the declaration that there's too much dps.
This thread would have gone over much better if you had refrained from taking such a hard stance and simply brought up your experience and asked if that was the case for others.
I've been playing the game for years, I have many characters, all freeform, most of them in their 30s. I also have 30+ years of game play and design experience. I know something about what I'm talking about, thank you very much.
My first run with the test character is complete, I thought I'd share some of the details.
The character is L22. He's my telepath, still waiting for telepathy powers to be made useful. He's been sitting in the powerhouse with no powers, mid-respec, so I used him.
His attributes are far from optimal, but he's not a weakling.
I gave him Toxic Bolts, Devour Essence, Pestilence, Epidemic, Concentration and Support Drones.
I set him up with Ego, then Rec and End for superstats, then specialized for damage.
Not wanting to go waste the respec, all my tests were conducted on Powerhouse foes, set on hard for 5 players. For reference, I ran all my other characters through the same conditions. They're different levels and types, but the reference will be relevant.
The tanks and hybrids specced for defence were generally able to handle the spawns with no trouble. They cleared them in about 3 minutes each, with no real danger of defeat.
My dps builds specced for offence were far less capable. Generally, they would take out a few of the minions, but by the time they get to the tougher foes, they're too chewed up to survive. They did defeat them from time to time, but it was MUCH harder. When they did, it was either very quick, or very long (1 minute or less or 5+ minutes).
Epidemic-boy teleported into the group and pressed the epidemic button. All the minions dropped in about 2 seconds. The tougher foes lasted a little longer. The character was never in danger, and was killing the spawns in about 6 seconds.
I have seen nothing yet to dissuade me that Epidemic (and the associated powers) is unbalanced.
Epidemic was doing about 300 damage per pulse, pulsing twice a second (600dps), plus Deadly Poison was being applied for about 140 damage per pulse, each second for ten seconds, stacked 10 times. Further, Pestilence was adding FURTHER deadly poison damage, also stacking 10 times. That's an additional 280 per pulse, ten times (2800dps), for ten seconds. That's a total of about 3400 damage PER SECOND, and that's at L22 and not optimally built.
I'm going to run it again to be sure my numbers are right, that seems high even to me. I'll update again later with better numbers and descriptions. As I say, this was a first run to get a sense of the thing.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
I've been playing the game for years, I have many characters, all freeform, most of them in their 30s. I also have 30+ years of game play and design experience. I know something about what I'm talking about, thank you very much.
My first run with the test character is complete, I thought I'd share some of the details.
The character is L22. He's my telepath, still waiting for telepathy powers to be made useful. He's been sitting in the powerhouse with no powers, mid-respec, so I used him.
His attributes are far from optimal, but he's not a weakling.
I gave him Toxic Bolts, Devour Essence, Pestilence, Epidemic, Concentration and Support Drones.
I set him up with Ego, then Rec and End for superstats, then specialized for damage.
Not wanting to go waste the respec, all my tests were conducted on Powerhouse foes, set on hard for 5 players. For reference, I ran all my other characters through the same conditions. They're different levels and types, but the reference will be relevant.
The tanks and hybrids specced for defence were generally able to handle the spawns with no trouble. They cleared them in about 3 minutes each, with no real danger of defeat.
My dps builds specced for offence were far less capable. Generally, they would take out a few of the minions, but by the time they get to the tougher foes, they're too chewed up to survive. They did defeat them from time to time, but it was MUCH harder. When they did, it was either very quick, or very long (1 minute or less or 5+ minutes).
Epidemic-boy teleported into the group and pressed the epidemic button. All the minions dropped in about 2 seconds. The tougher foes lasted a little longer. The character was never in danger, and was killing the spawns in about 6 seconds.
I have seen nothing yet to dissuade me that Epidemic (and the associated powers) is unbalanced.
Epidemic was doing about 300 damage per pulse, pulsing twice a second (600dps), plus Deadly Poison was being applied for about 140 damage per pulse, each second for ten seconds, stacked 10 times. Further, Pestilence was adding FURTHER deadly poison damage, also stacking 10 times. That's an additional 280 per pulse, ten times (2800dps), for ten seconds. That's a total of about 3400 damage PER SECOND, and that's at L22 and not optimally built.
I'm going to run it again to be sure my numbers are right, that seems high even to me. I'll update again later with better numbers and descriptions. As I say, this was a first run to get a sense of the thing.
HAHAHA!
Sorry, just had to laugh at your talk about experience. Especially seeing the way how you conducted your tests. Wow just the mobs in the power house. And on what difficulty and how many?
So let me see, you want to take into account all 10 stacks of deadly poison (which takes some time) and by the time all 10 stacks of deadly poison has been applied all of the trash mobs are already dead by any other kind of AoE build that i used.(my wind, fire, elec and even my force cascade toon can clear out the entire powerhouse mobs faster than you can and that is even on pts with complete garbage gear with difficulty hard opponent and group size of 5)
edit: tested this and it cleared the entire room in less than 1 minute.
tested this on live with my actual wind toon and it took less than 30 seconds....
later edit: i really doubt that your dps epidemic build is survivable enough to clear even the power house training room so fast if the group size was 5.
even later edit: test with my Elec dps build on live with hard opponent and group size of 5. cleared the entire room in 87 seconds. Because of more time wasting targetting issues with lightning storm
Try to test your epidmic build at trainstopping alerts if you are so convinced that it's overpowered. Try and dare to claim that you could have killed all the mobs by yourself on such alerts (aisde from the stronger mobs, you even have a timelimit)
Also have you even fought harder things like gravitar alerts or therakiel temple on elite? From what i have seen, i don't think you have.
I have seen nothing yet to dissuade me that Epidemic (and the associated powers) is unbalanced.
Balance is relative. If you're going to claim imbalance and to claim numbers backing up that claim of imbalance, then it is only reasonable for you to also test the numbers involved in all of the equivalent powers in controlled experiments.
I'm going to run it again to be sure my numbers are right, that seems high even to me. I'll update again later with better numbers and descriptions. As I say, this was a first run to get a sense of the thing.
I'd suggest that you go here ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/combatlogparser/ ) to get the combat log parser and follow the directions on how to use it so that your numbers are accurate and more easily displayed to others.
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
Im guessing firstly your comparrison in the power house tests were fundamently flawed (as has been your arguments all along - comparing single target charge powers to maintain aoe ones on trash mobs that the aoes are designed for)
I also suspect some mis testing or exageration in favour of the epidemic chr (harming your point rather than trying to emphasise it as you probably were). Especially as you mention deadly poison lasting 10 seconds in a test (thats after the time it took to get the stacks up as well!) you claim took 6 seconds to wipe out a spawn, and say 280 a pulse = 2800 dps!?!
I went into the power house with my lvl 40 (dont have a 30) to get some numbers with epidemic. The hard 5 man spawn mobs had around 2400 health for 1 bar, 8500 health for 2 bar and 14000 health for 4 bar (of course if yours were lower lvl would be less)
I wasnt specced for damage (not paying that much to test) but with rank 3 epidemic i was doing around 350 a pulse, if i was fully specced for damage etc i would be doing under double that since i still had high super stats adding their damage, will use double my figure as max example though, meaning 1400 dps. So yes 1 bars would drop fast, 2 bars would last around 6 seconds and 3 bar villains 10 seconds. If course as well it only affects 5 at once (a 5 man hard spawn has 12 in it so takes even longer.
If you want to validate your point and your test you would need to provide what lvl each testing toon was (and they need to be the same lvl to be accurate) and what powers were used by the defence and dps (and to be accurate it needs to be another dps power designed for trash killing not a single target charge up designed for bosses)
Also what healths were the 3 mob types for your lvl ?
Finally the power house mobs are not that good of a test anyway, real mobs outside the powerhouse are a vastly different ball game - a character that doesnt break a sweat against a 5 man hard spawn in powerhouse can easily be wiped out by a real spawn (seen that first hand).
I've been playing the game for years, I have many characters, all freeform, most of them in their 30s.
What is this thread about? How are you making generalizations about a game which you have not even come close to in terms of experiencing its full potential? If you have no 40s then...erm have you run the more difficult content like Therakiel's Temple on elite?
If a level 40 jumped into an Alert with you...especially one that was optimally geared...then of course they would wipe out the mobs before you could get to them.
I also have 30+ years of game play and design experience. I know something about what I'm talking about, thank you very much.
Then you would know that the solution to your problem does not lie with the relative DPS output of powers, but rather with the DPS output of players. There is a massive difference.
Especially when you lump level 40s with level 6s...Vixy is surprised that this obvious flaw is not what your argument emphasizes, given your 30 years of game design experience.
For a good DPS test, I'd suggest a Dockside Dustup with Deadman Walkin' or Mr. Gemini with the combat parser running. Specifically those two villains because they have Lightning Reflexes, making them harder to kill than the average Alert boss. As a DPS specced Epidemic spammer, Jack Fool can be a fun boss to tank too. Pity there's no way to fight these guys with their Alert stats outside of Alerts.
As for a good character benchmark in general, soloing Elite Vikorin seems to be regarded as the gold standard. And I suppose Normal Vikorin is the silver and the lv28 Mega-D event is the bronze. When Harmon Labs comes back into the rotation and if you ever get a party that ragequits by the first room, soloing the rest of the alert is probably deserving of a silver as well.
For a good DPS test, I'd suggest a Dockside Dustup with Deadman Walkin' or Mr. Gemini with the combat parser running. Specifically those two villains because they have Lightning Reflexes, making them harder to kill than the average Alert boss. As a DPS specced Epidemic spammer, Jack Fool can be a fun boss to tank too. Pity there's no way to fight these guys with their Alert stats outside of Alerts.
As for a good character benchmark in general, soloing Elite Vikorin seems to be regarded as the gold standard. And I suppose Normal Vikorin is the silver and the lv28 Mega-D event is the bronze. When Harmon Labs comes back into the rotation and if you ever get a party that ragequits by the first room, soloing the rest of the alert is probably deserving of a silver as well.
Just a word of caution, currently Mr Gemini's Lightning Reflexes Passive can be removed by Skarns Bane, this doesnt happen (to my knowledge) to players vs Skarns Bane.
You need to provide specifics, these numbers even to me arent useful. Read the above posts and get to level 40. Follow the guidelines and then post results, or you will get burned.
Then you would know that the solution to your problem does not lie with the relative DPS output of powers, but rather with the DPS output of players. There is a massive difference.
Vixy is correct.
Also, test results that do not provide raw numbers for all test subjects (passives, toggles, stacks, damage per stack, role, build, etc.) are not conclusive. Maximizing anything in CO is a matter of synergies. Without stating what synergies you were (and more importantly, weren't) taking advantage of, discussing the relative effectiveness of powers is ill-advised. Basic experimental design suggests that the only way to truly evaluate the effectiveness of A v. B is to make all contributing factors equal. If you do not report those factors, there is no way to ensure that equal playing field.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Yes, I know the numbers don't mean much as yet, it was just a quick dry run. I'll check out that combat log parser and make a more thorough test as time permits. I work in retail, and this time of year doesn't give me much down time, as you might imagine...
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Yeah, start a new thread named "Help me put all them Epi spammers to shame". Then tell us your theme/play-style and we(fancy build makers) will help you make an awesome build.
Yeah, start a new thread named "Help me put all them Epi spammers to shame". Then tell us your theme/play-style and we(fancy build makers) will help you make an awesome build.
Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
There is nothing wrong about Epidermic. It is not strong if the player is a tank or not properly geared. There are many many more powers that can wipe out the whole team of 5 enemies in an alert with a blink of eye. As someone mentioned earlier cause sometimes level 40 player jump in and wipe them out. Many dps players also have critical severity 100% which makes the power very deadly.
I have a tank which use Epidermic also but it takes forever for me to clear out the team of 5 enemies. So, it is not Epidermic's problem.
Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
So if they did nerf Epidemic... then what... some player would come along and sword cyclone a group down a bit too fast for your liking and you'd want that nerfed too?
I run alerts a lot... they're practically the only thing I do in CO anymore. The number of times per day I have someone using Epidemic in the party, generally can be counted on one hand, and quite frequently is zero per day.
In other words... there's no Epidemic epidemic.
There are a lot of imbalances in this game's powers... focusing on this one power exclusively just reeks of taking it personally.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
I think you are missing the point... When I go in with Tito, my main, he easily wipes most mobs in any Alert and he doesn't have Epi or other powers you mentioned, should the combinations of all his powers be nerfed? Its not just one power that makes him awesome, it's years of playing experience + dumb luck in finding the synergies + Tito's sexiness that makes that particular build awesome. If it's just a problem of a maintain attack vs charged attack then there's no way to fix that, it's an attack mechanic after all. But there are tons of ways to make a build perform better, hidden synergies, stat/spec reshuffling, devices, etc. Epidemic is lucky to have so many synergies that make it easier to hit a lot harder than other powers faster. But that same Epidemic guys goes "holy **** Tito, WTF kinda build is that?" when he sees all the cool stuff Tito's build can do... Which powers where you using vs those Epi/Lead Temp/etc. guys? Just to get a better understanding of where you're coming from.
I've been trying out a build with Dragon's Wrath and Pyre as main attacks, both charged powers. So far, running Hi-Pan, Smashes, Grabs, even Bursts, I have no trouble spamming fully charged Pyres on the mobs. I also seem to pull a lot of aggro. Still have to tweak the build a bit, but so far I have no trouble with spamming charged attacks at all, short of getting knocked, which I'm trying to find a slot for Circle of Primal Dominion to fix.
Side note: If you see Athena running around pulling mass aggro in Alerts, don't mind me, I'm trying to stress test the build =p
I run alerts a lot... they're practically the only thing I do in CO anymore. The number of times per day I have someone using Epidemic in the party, generally can be counted on one hand, and quite frequently is zero per day.
In other words... there's no Epidemic epidemic.
I have an Epidemic alt, and I really don't use her all that often. Its useful, sure, but its not as flashy as Hurricane or Lead Tempest. And both of those have nice advantages that add a bit of mitigation too. Epidemic synergizes well with the Infernal set, but that's pretty much all it has. To borrow a phrase from the office, 'its just chicken.'
Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
In your eyes any non charged AoE power is overpowered, just because it can kill groups of trash mobs faster than you can.
If so, then it is a matter of your build.
Early on I was noticing this same thing. Trash mobs would die during alerts before I could charge up my main hit. I know I am new to the game, but for some reason I figured the answer to tap on trash and only fully charge on the boss. Really, that took all of 2 minutes to figure out.
"Nuke them from orbit, its the only way to be sure."
Yes, it gets the job done, but it shouldn't be the first option that you explore.
Just dropping in to say I haven't forgotten about the test I want to run. This week something happened that renewed my desire to check out my assertion that there are serious balance issues.
I joined an alert, the one in the mall in Vibora. The group attacked the near entrance while one other player went off on his own. I was playing my healer character, so I was constantly monitoring everyone's health.
In the time it took for the rest of the group to defeat one enemy spawn by the main entrance, this one other player, using munitions (guns) cleared ALL the other groups. That is, the one by the other entrance, the two in the back corners and the one next to the main entrance group the rest of us were fighting. All told, about 12 seconds.
In addition, he never lost any health. Not even once. I know, because as the healer, I was watching.
I can't say what his build was, but what I do know is that the rest of the group was entirely irrelevant to the alert. He would have soloed the whole thing in under a minute and likely never have taken any damage. Again, to me that's a problem.
My tests will be forthcoming as I get a chance to run them.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
The Soldier AT is fully capable of the performance you saw in a day at the mall. Not that the player you saw may be playing it, but it simply shows munitions is a very effective framework. And some frameworks just pale in comparison to others. And some frameworks excel with minimum effort or know-how, unfortunately.
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
Just dropping in to say I haven't forgotten about the test I want to run. This week something happened that renewed my desire to check out my assertion that there are serious balance issues.
I joined an alert, the one in the mall in Vibora. The group attacked the near entrance while one other player went off on his own. I was playing my healer character, so I was constantly monitoring everyone's health.
In the time it took for the rest of the group to defeat one enemy spawn by the main entrance, this one other player, using munitions (guns) cleared ALL the other groups. That is, the one by the other entrance, the two in the back corners and the one next to the main entrance group the rest of us were fighting. All told, about 12 seconds.
In addition, he never lost any health. Not even once. I know, because as the healer, I was watching.
I can't say what his build was, but what I do know is that the rest of the group was entirely irrelevant to the alert. He would have soloed the whole thing in under a minute and likely never have taken any damage. Again, to me that's a problem.
My tests will be forthcoming as I get a chance to run them.
First thing, I think you need a better stopwatch Or maybe fraps it and record the timestamps. Post on Youtube too, to make it more convincing. Otherwise, it sounds like your timings are all wrong. Spawns in A Day At the Mall do not get cleared in 12 seconds when the travelling time alone is 12 seconds.
Second thing, level 40s that can solo alerts is perfectly normal. Once you hit level 40 with decent gear, you start to get used to the idea of having to solo alerts because everyone else is made of paper, their idea of DPS is using their energy builder and the healer (if any) is too busy Rebuking a Draysha Enforcer for 200 damage. Heck, I recently rebuilt my support character, Mecha-Arisa, with enough offensive capabilities to solo Smashes within the time limit if needed. And she doesn't even use Epidemic :O!
Third, I don't remember how many times I've repeated myself in this thread, but I'm going to say it again because you still haven't addressed that point. The thing about alerts is they're not balanced for geared Level 40 characters, because they're not the lowest common denominator. Make a case about there being too much DPS in Gravitar and maybe that'd be more credible.
Finally, some people do believe that there is indeed too much DPS, but not on the powers you list. Rather, it's on other stuff like Gas Pellets and Aura of Ebon Destruction with mass Teleiosaur Pheromones. You might want to take a look at this thread if you're interested in what the current high DPS combos are: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=202301
You know Selphea makes a good point... your story doesn't add up.
1. Definitely a red-flag with regards to your 12 second declaration. I can wipe out 3 groups solo with my main character by the time the rest of the low levels get through one, but it takes way more 12 seconds. And she has some of the best gear and devices in the game! Seems fishy... abnormal.
2. Never took damage? Was he the one holding agro? Stealth? You're omitting info...
Makes even more sense when you consider the previous yellow flags of you not even being able to name the powers or specifics of what you're criticizing, and that you didn't have a level 40.
I'm starting to believe this whole topic is just trying to get attention, kind of like Te'o or Lance Armstrong in the news lately... I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble believing you or even your motives now. It's started out with benefit of the doubt, but your continued stories keep eroding, not reinforcing. Be honest, don't fudge numbers because you think it'll make your case look better. It comes back to bite you in the long run. If you're unsure, try to make sure you say you're unsure or it's a guess.
Most casual gamers who are used to multiplayer would realize that things can sometimes go exceptionally well, or exceptionally bad. It depends on a number of factors. For all ColonelMarik's (increasingly apparent) lack of understanding, there could be several factors going on. Or even devices. Heck if these fights are really that short you could attach .txt files with the combat logs and time stamps. FRAPS it even.
More concrete data is needed! Too much politics and not enough facts.
And even if the facts say too much DPS, not everyone is going to agree that comprehensive nerfs are necessary. The playerbase overall has historically pushed for "easy enough for any archetype to do" rather than "hard challenge", you'll be fighting an uphill battle. Example? XaoGarrett
12 seconds is an approximation, but it's not far off. It was the time it took for the group to finish off one spawn of foes. It was somewhere around 12 seconds.
The guy I'm referring to didn't take any damage at all. I know this because I was watching everyone's health levels (I was healing). As I say, I don't know what his build was, so I can't tell you how he did it, but it did happen.
The point of describing this particular situation was to explain why I want to conduct more thorough tests. I need to know whether my assertion that some powers and sets are overperforming is true or not.
I only just got my computer back (just got it upgraded), so I may be able to start testing tonight.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
12 seconds is an approximation, but it's not far off. It was the time it took for the group to finish off one spawn of foes. It was somewhere around 12 seconds.
The guy I'm referring to didn't take any damage at all. I know this because I was watching everyone's health levels (I was healing). As I say, I don't know what his build was, so I can't tell you how he did it, but it did happen.
The point of describing this particular situation was to explain why I want to conduct more thorough tests. I need to know whether my assertion that some powers and sets are overperforming is true or not.
I only just got my computer back (just got it upgraded), so I may be able to start testing tonight.
Don't bother testing unless you have a decently equiped level 40 character
12 seconds is an approximation, but it's not far off. It was the time it took for the group to finish off one spawn of foes. It was somewhere around 12 seconds.
Errmm, are you referring to 12 seconds for one group of mobs? If that is what you meant. then I think that is pretty slow already IMO. But if you meant the entire Day at the Mall alert's mobs then I would hazard to say that it is impossible.
Also, when you say that the person did not take any damage, it does not validate your point about there being too much DPS. It goes to show the person has many defenses running. This may include heals, bubbles, active defenses or devices.
Comments
If you and others had tried to drive home a point for 21 pages and it wasn't being taken into account, I'm pretty sure you wouldnt remain civil for long.
Civility is not generally a matter of opinion, there is a definition for it and the majority of people on the forums know how to behave and not to insult other people. Insults only come when someone is fed up with driving a point home OR if they feel someone else is being thickheaded.
Do you feel offended by anthing you have read in this thread? If so, evaluate why. If it is because someone has directed a specific threat or something at you?
Rudeness is also a matter of opinion, for some people that is just how their specific writing style comes across as harsh and overbearing when they are simply sharing thier point of view.
An example is when I was debating with another forum member about a certain passive, he said something and I took offense until it was explained what he actually meant.
The same goes for here as well.
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^ These two posts scream QFT, I'm sure may others do too.
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If they haven't presented me with an argument I find persuasive, why would I abandon my own position?
Perhaps "losing" is the wrong word. They've failed to convince me I'm wrong. That doesn't give them the right to insult, condescend or deride me.
I think you're mistaking the word "disagreeable" for "debatable." My opinion is indeed "disagreeable" insofar as you can disagree with it. It is not disagreeable because it is insulting, rude or in any way an attack on anyone.
Again, irrelevant and erroneous. I'm leaving the game BECAUSE of problems like this. If they addressed the balance issues I am seeing, I wouldn't be leaving again.
I don't disagree that nothing will be done. Precious little ever gets done these days if they can't put it on the store in some way. I also agree that there may be more pressing issues to deal with.
That could be. I haven't actually tried building a character with these powers and evaluated it myself. Perhaps I'll do that, it's not really fair to criticize something I haven't closely examined.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Some people are triggering off the original post on the forum and some threads that followed...
Its difficult when a thread gets long to really want to read everything.
The OP has responded many times to what is being said if you look back...and has acknowledged what others have said.
If you go back you will see the OP clarified his position and is disapointed with the way the Alerts work....but feels that the issue is not something that is such a major concern that it should be worked on in exclusion to everything else.
But interestignly enough....the topic has struck a cord with many players.....the one statement of "too much DPS" has really grabbed many players' attention.
But if you read the entire thread you will see....that the OP and many posters inthis thread are in agreement the issue isnt too much damage or for that matter too much of one style of play....its that they want options....to make the Alerts something more then what they are....
As some players feel they need a better reward...others feel the Alert is too simplistic in its design...while others still....want options to increase the difficulty..to make their higher levels have more meaning.
I hope that sums up the major points of this thread....
Oh and the latest posts have been trigger posts based off the orignal thread starter and a few at the end.....
(<_< am beggining to feel like the person who made that funny youtube video showing what wikileaks was talking about)
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
sorry you had to post like that....
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
No worries, I usually try to respond to well organized posts.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Disagreeable has more than one meaning. Using the word disagreeable with regard to your request/suggestion, could mean that they find it to be contrary to their tastes and liking, repugnant and/or offensive. I find anchovies to be disagreeable, especially when fried by my roommate. That does not mean I don't see eye to eye with the anchovies, or feel they have been insulting (except perhaps to my olfactory).
Not that I hold that opinion about your suggestion myself, but the thread has gone far afield from the topic and I am hoping to lay the "disagreeable" discussion about disagree-ability to rest.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Looks rather like stubborness to me. Also how many people do actually even agree with you?
If i want to burn down a goverment building for valid reasons but other people don't agree with me, does that mean i am still not wrong?
Well good bye then and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Well that is one of the more sensible things that i have read from you.
I also come across the situation where one or two players wiped out the whole gang of enemies before I reach them. After I have realized their dps, I quickly move to another team of enemies which are far way from them. Usually there are 3 to 5 teams of enemies in an alert. With their dps, I save a lot of time to accomplish an alert. I don't mean that I want to be lazy or I am taking advantage on their great dps, but I try to earn as much quetonite as I can in shortest time so that I have more time to complete my real life stuff.
Also, when a level 40 player is properly geared, he/she might be as powerful as level 60(like someone mentioned earlier). But that is the dps we needed for Gravitar Rampage and Shadow Destroyer in Nemesis Confrontation and etc. Moreover, The dev team try to come up with something like those level 60 Mega-D invasion. In Gravitar Rampage, if a dps is the only one survive, he/she usually get killed before able to reduce 10% of Gravitar's hp or even being one shotted before doing any damage.
To me, it is fine with me.
Also, I am always doing Nemcon and Gravitar(almost everyday), so I would like to see those super dps in my team such as those freeforms who use Electric powerset, supernatural powerset which can wipe out gang of enemies fast. Also, the great dps really helps alot to reduce the burden of tanks who try to tank Gravitar for the team.
First I didn't see that as an insult - when just about everyone has posted a view opposing yours with facts to back them up - and you choosing to disagree in light of that - I figured they were truly going over your head.
Simply put, you lack the knowledge to be making such blanketed statements about there being too much dps when your only frame of reference is clearly lacking.
As someone who is not even active (as in no longer playing) I know I've got far more in depth working knowledge of the game mechanics.
You are choosing to disagree with the vast majority not out of logic, but an overwhelming lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You're seemingly under the impression or hold the belief that everything and everyone should perform around the same level - people have already clearly shown why that is not and should never be the case.
Being upset that you can't go "Ha-Do-Ken" with a massive charge-up on low ranking mobs doesn't solidify your case - it just merely draws attention to your lack of skill and knowledge.
I have to agree. He has come across as willing to hear other people out, and it feels like no one will give him a break. Even if I strongly disagree with some of his points, he seems to be keeping it civil.
He's not changing his mind, and that's ok lol. That's what he believes in. People seem to get all wadded up because he won't change his stance. I wonder what would have happened if George Washington would have just agreed with Great Britain or the people of France would have decided that having an Absolute Monarchy was ok.
Ok maybe those are stretched examples, but they are relevant...
The way I see it is pretty much how Secksegai put it. He's making unsubstantiated claims like "Epidemic kills trash in GRABs in 2 seconds", except I haven't seen any Epidemic on any character kill a Tommygun or PSI Agent in 2 seconds solo, not have I found it mathematically possible to do so.
He is also using the very narrow frame of reference of Alerts for his argument when they are clearly not designed as challenging group content.
The problem with sticking to what you believe in is that you need evidence that you are right. Otherwise you're just kind of running around telling everyone the world is flat, and saying "I disagree" to anyone who tells you otherwise.
Thus, I will suspend my comments until I have made some empirical observations that I can provide. I'll try making a character with the powers I've been commenting on (though, my level will be limited to less than 30, so the tests may be a little skewed...)
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Perhaps looking at matters from another angle is what is needed. But I'm not asking you to abandon your position, I know full well what it is like to charge a power and then before it's fully charged your target is gone. Stick to your guns if you want, I have nothing against that at all.
Of course it doesn't, but people tend to get upset when a point is being driven in and its not being seen. If the subject was open gameplay rather than Alerts then most people would agree but since in Alerts you need to be...ALERT, which can mean fast or acting in a hastened manner, charge attacks arent usually favoured unless on boss.
You are incorrect here, I know what both words mean and thier definitions. Your stance on this matter has made you shift your arguement to an almost entirely different level/topic, the topic of DPS being too much in general and in open world. THAT is disagreeable. And this thread can be seen as an attack on DPSers especially Epidemic users. And I am already familiar with your dislike/hatred of that power, which could well extend to those who use it. So either way it seems like an attack, and is therefore disagreeable by your or my definition.
I think you might want to look at what you originally quoted then look back to a post about you leaving CO. You seem to say you are leaving...alot. If you are leaving then stay true to your word. If being unable to fire your charged powers in an alert because someone uses DPS powers is going to make you leave then >_>...IMO that is a little petty. DPS is DPS and is very powerful. If I for example made a thread saying Too Much Healing and argued that healers were dreadfully OP and were sucking the "challenge" out of this game and not allowing me to die or take too much damage, I'd be told where to clear off. Healers and DPSers do their specialised jobs, i.e. healing or high damage per sec. Just because they are good at it doesnt mean they need to be crippled for the sake of "balance". As others have already pointed out to you charged powers were always less efficient than maintains, for mob clearing etc, even spamming charged can be put to a greater effect.
Effectively you are leaving this game because Players running optimised builds can wipe mobs faster than you and you feel this is a balance issue.
It's similar to me saying: "I want Invuln to be nerfed because people with Invuln can survive longer than my PFF char, therefore this is a balance issue, fix this now or I will leave."
Needless to say most people will tell me to just leave.
@Highlighted: Good now you are seeing the flipside or starting to whenever you decide to run a pestilence toon. DPS has sacrafices to make like less defense etc. Pestilence is an OP passive from what I can see in terms of secondary effects and primary effects too.
Your claim of an Epidemic build rubbing out a GRAB group in 2 secs is..not believable. Period. Unless they were super super boosted by 3 AoPM's running with Ego Surge + Nimble Mind + High CON and INT primary with defense penetration plus a ton of other variables..I cannot see this being possible.
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Nice to hear. I think anyone else reading this post will agree you should do this too. I know from past experience posting on forums without some quantitative data can get you burnt...so IMO this was a wise move but perhaps a little late but a wise move nonetheless.
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You should have seen some of the flame wars that surrounded me on the CoH forums. I still shake my head at some of them. Over there, I was called Ultimo_.
Of course, in most cases, the things I said usually turned out to be correct. We'll see what happens here.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
For this case, I personally think that the current dps system is fine cause dps does not only matter for alerts. The great dps is very important in many cases such as Takofanes, level 60 Mega-D invasion, Gravitar rampage, therakiel temple with elite difficulty,etc.
People thought for centuries that the world was flat - because that was their personal experience.
Without a single 40 to your name, let alone a complete lack of experience with the myriad of powers and combinations possible, where exactly do you see yourself qualified to be making the declaration that there's too much dps.
This thread would have gone over much better if you had refrained from taking such a hard stance and simply brought up your experience and asked if that was the case for others.
My first run with the test character is complete, I thought I'd share some of the details.
The character is L22. He's my telepath, still waiting for telepathy powers to be made useful. He's been sitting in the powerhouse with no powers, mid-respec, so I used him.
His attributes are far from optimal, but he's not a weakling.
I gave him Toxic Bolts, Devour Essence, Pestilence, Epidemic, Concentration and Support Drones.
I set him up with Ego, then Rec and End for superstats, then specialized for damage.
Not wanting to go waste the respec, all my tests were conducted on Powerhouse foes, set on hard for 5 players. For reference, I ran all my other characters through the same conditions. They're different levels and types, but the reference will be relevant.
The tanks and hybrids specced for defence were generally able to handle the spawns with no trouble. They cleared them in about 3 minutes each, with no real danger of defeat.
My dps builds specced for offence were far less capable. Generally, they would take out a few of the minions, but by the time they get to the tougher foes, they're too chewed up to survive. They did defeat them from time to time, but it was MUCH harder. When they did, it was either very quick, or very long (1 minute or less or 5+ minutes).
Epidemic-boy teleported into the group and pressed the epidemic button. All the minions dropped in about 2 seconds. The tougher foes lasted a little longer. The character was never in danger, and was killing the spawns in about 6 seconds.
I have seen nothing yet to dissuade me that Epidemic (and the associated powers) is unbalanced.
Epidemic was doing about 300 damage per pulse, pulsing twice a second (600dps), plus Deadly Poison was being applied for about 140 damage per pulse, each second for ten seconds, stacked 10 times. Further, Pestilence was adding FURTHER deadly poison damage, also stacking 10 times. That's an additional 280 per pulse, ten times (2800dps), for ten seconds. That's a total of about 3400 damage PER SECOND, and that's at L22 and not optimally built.
I'm going to run it again to be sure my numbers are right, that seems high even to me. I'll update again later with better numbers and descriptions. As I say, this was a first run to get a sense of the thing.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
HAHAHA!
Sorry, just had to laugh at your talk about experience. Especially seeing the way how you conducted your tests. Wow just the mobs in the power house. And on what difficulty and how many?
So let me see, you want to take into account all 10 stacks of deadly poison (which takes some time) and by the time all 10 stacks of deadly poison has been applied all of the trash mobs are already dead by any other kind of AoE build that i used.(my wind, fire, elec and even my force cascade toon can clear out the entire powerhouse mobs faster than you can and that is even on pts with complete garbage gear with difficulty hard opponent and group size of 5)
edit: tested this and it cleared the entire room in less than 1 minute.
tested this on live with my actual wind toon and it took less than 30 seconds....
later edit: i really doubt that your dps epidemic build is survivable enough to clear even the power house training room so fast if the group size was 5.
even later edit: test with my Elec dps build on live with hard opponent and group size of 5. cleared the entire room in 87 seconds. Because of more time wasting targetting issues with lightning storm
Try to test your epidmic build at trainstopping alerts if you are so convinced that it's overpowered. Try and dare to claim that you could have killed all the mobs by yourself on such alerts (aisde from the stronger mobs, you even have a timelimit)
Also have you even fought harder things like gravitar alerts or therakiel temple on elite? From what i have seen, i don't think you have.
Balance is relative. If you're going to claim imbalance and to claim numbers backing up that claim of imbalance, then it is only reasonable for you to also test the numbers involved in all of the equivalent powers in controlled experiments.
Absent such context, your numbers aren't useful.
I'd suggest that you go here ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/combatlogparser/ ) to get the combat log parser and follow the directions on how to use it so that your numbers are accurate and more easily displayed to others.
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Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
I also suspect some mis testing or exageration in favour of the epidemic chr (harming your point rather than trying to emphasise it as you probably were). Especially as you mention deadly poison lasting 10 seconds in a test (thats after the time it took to get the stacks up as well!) you claim took 6 seconds to wipe out a spawn, and say 280 a pulse = 2800 dps!?!
I went into the power house with my lvl 40 (dont have a 30) to get some numbers with epidemic. The hard 5 man spawn mobs had around 2400 health for 1 bar, 8500 health for 2 bar and 14000 health for 4 bar (of course if yours were lower lvl would be less)
I wasnt specced for damage (not paying that much to test) but with rank 3 epidemic i was doing around 350 a pulse, if i was fully specced for damage etc i would be doing under double that since i still had high super stats adding their damage, will use double my figure as max example though, meaning 1400 dps. So yes 1 bars would drop fast, 2 bars would last around 6 seconds and 3 bar villains 10 seconds. If course as well it only affects 5 at once (a 5 man hard spawn has 12 in it so takes even longer.
If you want to validate your point and your test you would need to provide what lvl each testing toon was (and they need to be the same lvl to be accurate) and what powers were used by the defence and dps (and to be accurate it needs to be another dps power designed for trash killing not a single target charge up designed for bosses)
Also what healths were the 3 mob types for your lvl ?
Finally the power house mobs are not that good of a test anyway, real mobs outside the powerhouse are a vastly different ball game - a character that doesnt break a sweat against a 5 man hard spawn in powerhouse can easily be wiped out by a real spawn (seen that first hand).
What is this thread about? How are you making generalizations about a game which you have not even come close to in terms of experiencing its full potential? If you have no 40s then...erm have you run the more difficult content like Therakiel's Temple on elite?
If a level 40 jumped into an Alert with you...especially one that was optimally geared...then of course they would wipe out the mobs before you could get to them.
Then you would know that the solution to your problem does not lie with the relative DPS output of powers, but rather with the DPS output of players. There is a massive difference.
Especially when you lump level 40s with level 6s...Vixy is surprised that this obvious flaw is not what your argument emphasizes, given your 30 years of game design experience.
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As for a good character benchmark in general, soloing Elite Vikorin seems to be regarded as the gold standard. And I suppose Normal Vikorin is the silver and the lv28 Mega-D event is the bronze. When Harmon Labs comes back into the rotation and if you ever get a party that ragequits by the first room, soloing the rest of the alert is probably deserving of a silver as well.
Just a word of caution, currently Mr Gemini's Lightning Reflexes Passive can be removed by Skarns Bane, this doesnt happen (to my knowledge) to players vs Skarns Bane.
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You need to provide specifics, these numbers even to me arent useful. Read the above posts and get to level 40. Follow the guidelines and then post results, or you will get burned.
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Vixy is correct.
Also, test results that do not provide raw numbers for all test subjects (passives, toggles, stacks, damage per stack, role, build, etc.) are not conclusive. Maximizing anything in CO is a matter of synergies. Without stating what synergies you were (and more importantly, weren't) taking advantage of, discussing the relative effectiveness of powers is ill-advised. Basic experimental design suggests that the only way to truly evaluate the effectiveness of A v. B is to make all contributing factors equal. If you do not report those factors, there is no way to ensure that equal playing field.
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Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
These 2 will dramatically increase the DPS of a level 40 character.
You're aware you just turned this thread in a joke now?
If only you look into the suggested builds, you may learn and know that there are ways to have good chars with other powers than Epidemic.
You can read some proofs here :
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=196201&highlight=solo+build
:rolleyes:
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This was awesome while it lasted
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Again, you've missed the point. My builds are not the problem. My assertion (which remains to be proven) is that certain powers, Epidemic among them, are unbalanced relative to other powers and the game's content in general.
I'm working on an experiment to establish that, but it will take time, as I'm always at work lately.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
There is nothing wrong about Epidermic. It is not strong if the player is a tank or not properly geared. There are many many more powers that can wipe out the whole team of 5 enemies in an alert with a blink of eye. As someone mentioned earlier cause sometimes level 40 player jump in and wipe them out. Many dps players also have critical severity 100% which makes the power very deadly.
I have a tank which use Epidermic also but it takes forever for me to clear out the team of 5 enemies. So, it is not Epidermic's problem.
So if they did nerf Epidemic... then what... some player would come along and sword cyclone a group down a bit too fast for your liking and you'd want that nerfed too?
I run alerts a lot... they're practically the only thing I do in CO anymore. The number of times per day I have someone using Epidemic in the party, generally can be counted on one hand, and quite frequently is zero per day.
In other words... there's no Epidemic epidemic.
There are a lot of imbalances in this game's powers... focusing on this one power exclusively just reeks of taking it personally.
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I think you are missing the point... When I go in with Tito, my main, he easily wipes most mobs in any Alert and he doesn't have Epi or other powers you mentioned, should the combinations of all his powers be nerfed? Its not just one power that makes him awesome, it's years of playing experience + dumb luck in finding the synergies + Tito's sexiness that makes that particular build awesome. If it's just a problem of a maintain attack vs charged attack then there's no way to fix that, it's an attack mechanic after all. But there are tons of ways to make a build perform better, hidden synergies, stat/spec reshuffling, devices, etc. Epidemic is lucky to have so many synergies that make it easier to hit a lot harder than other powers faster. But that same Epidemic guys goes "holy **** Tito, WTF kinda build is that?" when he sees all the cool stuff Tito's build can do... Which powers where you using vs those Epi/Lead Temp/etc. guys? Just to get a better understanding of where you're coming from.
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Side note: If you see Athena running around pulling mass aggro in Alerts, don't mind me, I'm trying to stress test the build =p
I have an Epidemic alt, and I really don't use her all that often. Its useful, sure, but its not as flashy as Hurricane or Lead Tempest. And both of those have nice advantages that add a bit of mitigation too. Epidemic synergizes well with the Infernal set, but that's pretty much all it has. To borrow a phrase from the office, 'its just chicken.'
In your eyes any non charged AoE power is overpowered, just because it can kill groups of trash mobs faster than you can.
If so, then it is a matter of your build.
"Nuke them from orbit, its the only way to be sure."
Yes, it gets the job done, but it shouldn't be the first option that you explore.
All die, so die well.
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I joined an alert, the one in the mall in Vibora. The group attacked the near entrance while one other player went off on his own. I was playing my healer character, so I was constantly monitoring everyone's health.
In the time it took for the rest of the group to defeat one enemy spawn by the main entrance, this one other player, using munitions (guns) cleared ALL the other groups. That is, the one by the other entrance, the two in the back corners and the one next to the main entrance group the rest of us were fighting. All told, about 12 seconds.
In addition, he never lost any health. Not even once. I know, because as the healer, I was watching.
I can't say what his build was, but what I do know is that the rest of the group was entirely irrelevant to the alert. He would have soloed the whole thing in under a minute and likely never have taken any damage. Again, to me that's a problem.
My tests will be forthcoming as I get a chance to run them.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
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Do you have a level 40 yet?
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First thing, I think you need a better stopwatch
Second thing, level 40s that can solo alerts is perfectly normal. Once you hit level 40 with decent gear, you start to get used to the idea of having to solo alerts because everyone else is made of paper, their idea of DPS is using their energy builder and the healer (if any) is too busy Rebuking a Draysha Enforcer for 200 damage. Heck, I recently rebuilt my support character, Mecha-Arisa, with enough offensive capabilities to solo Smashes within the time limit if needed. And she doesn't even use Epidemic :O!
Third, I don't remember how many times I've repeated myself in this thread, but I'm going to say it again because you still haven't addressed that point. The thing about alerts is they're not balanced for geared Level 40 characters, because they're not the lowest common denominator. Make a case about there being too much DPS in Gravitar and maybe that'd be more credible.
Finally, some people do believe that there is indeed too much DPS, but not on the powers you list. Rather, it's on other stuff like Gas Pellets and Aura of Ebon Destruction with mass Teleiosaur Pheromones. You might want to take a look at this thread if you're interested in what the current high DPS combos are: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=202301
1. Definitely a red-flag with regards to your 12 second declaration. I can wipe out 3 groups solo with my main character by the time the rest of the low levels get through one, but it takes way more 12 seconds. And she has some of the best gear and devices in the game! Seems fishy... abnormal.
2. Never took damage? Was he the one holding agro? Stealth? You're omitting info...
Makes even more sense when you consider the previous yellow flags of you not even being able to name the powers or specifics of what you're criticizing, and that you didn't have a level 40.
I'm starting to believe this whole topic is just trying to get attention, kind of like Te'o or Lance Armstrong in the news lately... I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble believing you or even your motives now. It's started out with benefit of the doubt, but your continued stories keep eroding, not reinforcing. Be honest, don't fudge numbers because you think it'll make your case look better. It comes back to bite you in the long run. If you're unsure, try to make sure you say you're unsure or it's a guess.
Most casual gamers who are used to multiplayer would realize that things can sometimes go exceptionally well, or exceptionally bad. It depends on a number of factors. For all ColonelMarik's (increasingly apparent) lack of understanding, there could be several factors going on. Or even devices. Heck if these fights are really that short you could attach .txt files with the combat logs and time stamps. FRAPS it even.
More concrete data is needed! Too much politics and not enough facts.
And even if the facts say too much DPS, not everyone is going to agree that comprehensive nerfs are necessary. The playerbase overall has historically pushed for "easy enough for any archetype to do" rather than "hard challenge", you'll be fighting an uphill battle. Example? XaoGarrett
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The guy I'm referring to didn't take any damage at all. I know this because I was watching everyone's health levels (I was healing). As I say, I don't know what his build was, so I can't tell you how he did it, but it did happen.
The point of describing this particular situation was to explain why I want to conduct more thorough tests. I need to know whether my assertion that some powers and sets are overperforming is true or not.
I only just got my computer back (just got it upgraded), so I may be able to start testing tonight.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Don't bother testing unless you have a decently equiped level 40 character
Errmm, are you referring to 12 seconds for one group of mobs? If that is what you meant. then I think that is pretty slow already IMO. But if you meant the entire Day at the Mall alert's mobs then I would hazard to say that it is impossible.
Also, when you say that the person did not take any damage, it does not validate your point about there being too much DPS. It goes to show the person has many defenses running. This may include heals, bubbles, active defenses or devices.