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So with that giant response thread about The Foundry
ariesmajor
Posts: 394 Arc User
I read every single page, but one question from a player came up that posed a very interesting thought.
Lets discuss it.
What is wrong with the foundry, what problems do players face in current incarnations of it in Star Trek Online and the upcoming Neverwinter?
What could be done to improve upon these things? How would we rationally implement such a system into Champions?
Where do the players feel they can trust their money toward funding extra amenities and additional articles within a system like this? Buying more quest slots? Buying more costume sets to use in this system? Buying more map sets to use?
What would be the most disappointing feature of a foundry system?
What could you live with, with a system like this? What could you live without?
How would this attract new players?
How would this retain old players?
What are the cons sof such a system?
How would you go about fixing the cons?
What would you expect?
What would you be pleasantly surprised by?
Now as most of these questions are referred to in a "what if yes" sort of pattern, lets think for a minute on those "if yes then=" type of questions.
If Foundry=true, then=? Lets fill that question mark.
Based on what we know, with a tad bit of what we desire mixed in. How do we make it better? What can make it great? What can make it a disaster?
Constructive conversation welcomed,
Open forum, discuss, but lets play a game with it a bit. Try to answer some of these questions, but also try asking some of your own. Try answering someones question in this thread, and after your answer, try coming up with a new question for someone to answer. Or find someones problem, and suggest what you think would be a viable solution.
Like algebra, the ultimate solution cannot be found until more questions are answered.
sockmunkey wrote: »Perhaps I should explain, seeing as how I seem to be misunderstood.
The foundry, at least how it is implemented in STO, has flaws. And there has been no talk at all about addressing those limitations. So while its easy to say, go foundry. Id rather it be go BETTER foundry.
Lets face it, we as a community have often wanted something, only be horribly disapointed with what we finally end up with, assuming we end up with it at all. (Im looking at you vehicle system) We tend to set ourselves up for this as our expectations rarely line up with what Cryptic is able to deliver.
So, I feel its worthwile taking the time to bring up and discuss our expectations clearly when we say we want something. To me, being able to say "hey, the foundry is nice. But perhaps it could be better. Lets discuss it." Is far more valuable then simply saying "Yes please"
I for one am tired of disapointment. I for one am tired of getting a new thing only to have it come up short. And I feel and believe deeply that a foundry that fails to provide an alternate means of leveling. Will lead to disapointment. No xp rewards simply means, foundry or not, we will STILL be doing the same content over and over again. It means we will not be able to tell our own story without having to do old missions that might be out of character or in conflict with a concept. And that means the foundry will come up short.
Lets see if we cant do better then that.
Lets discuss it.
What is wrong with the foundry, what problems do players face in current incarnations of it in Star Trek Online and the upcoming Neverwinter?
What could be done to improve upon these things? How would we rationally implement such a system into Champions?
Where do the players feel they can trust their money toward funding extra amenities and additional articles within a system like this? Buying more quest slots? Buying more costume sets to use in this system? Buying more map sets to use?
What would be the most disappointing feature of a foundry system?
What could you live with, with a system like this? What could you live without?
How would this attract new players?
How would this retain old players?
What are the cons sof such a system?
How would you go about fixing the cons?
What would you expect?
What would you be pleasantly surprised by?
Now as most of these questions are referred to in a "what if yes" sort of pattern, lets think for a minute on those "if yes then=" type of questions.
If Foundry=true, then=? Lets fill that question mark.
Based on what we know, with a tad bit of what we desire mixed in. How do we make it better? What can make it great? What can make it a disaster?
Constructive conversation welcomed,
Open forum, discuss, but lets play a game with it a bit. Try to answer some of these questions, but also try asking some of your own. Try answering someones question in this thread, and after your answer, try coming up with a new question for someone to answer. Or find someones problem, and suggest what you think would be a viable solution.
Like algebra, the ultimate solution cannot be found until more questions are answered.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Also i would like to add Events into my quests like protect an npc or survive x waves of enemies.
And, of course, if i can't use the costume editor to change the costumes of every single NPCs in my quest i will be very
The problem is that you can't give players great freedom to create content without leaving massive holes for exploitation and farming. City of Heroes' Mission Architect wasn't some special mistake, I believe it's an inherent problem.
I would much rather have developers be free to work solely on making a fun, featured, functional Foundry than have to constantly be stomping out Farm of the Month.
If I want to level, I can do missions. Or Smashes. Let me actually have fun content in Foundry.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I want to be able to pick the villain, faction, placement, location, tiles, setup, environment, and furnishings.
I want to be able to set the goals and prerequisites as I see them.
I want to be able to create gimmick fights like Mandragalore where you can use the cannons and have tiles light up, or SL with... that chick and the pyramid... things.
I want to be able to use Nemesis in any way I want, particularly in a mission chain to set up ambushes and drop clues to the next point.
I want to be able to set up conditional battles (defeat X before Y happens), or branching paths in the chain (cuz if you don't you have to clean up the mess).
I want to be able to create conditional battles (defend the generator you just shut down from waves while your buddy takes on the baddie trying to fire up his cannon).
I want to be able to set start locations for the mission like NemCon in the cells.
I want to be able to write dialogue and pathing for characters.
I want a ranking/rating system and the "Events" page to be used for promotion of high ranking missions.
I want to be able to set the number of players allowed in the mission at a time.
I want to be able to branch teams and force communication (you go to mission 2.a in Canada while we take out mission 2.b in VB! We're running out of time!).
I want to be able to grant Temp abilities/devices/gear like vehicles, Gadroon x-ray goggles or PA.
I want to be able to write story text.
I want to be able to use players custom choices like their hideout as a story location.
I want to be able to script events like an outdoor location suddenly having a helicopter fly overhead, and crash into a building.
I want to be able to create an NPC, Villain or Hero guest star.
I want to be able to create a Kaiju encounter.
I want to be able to use dramatic movements like diving in front of a bullet for someone else during the "cutscenes" (even if it's just the bestial run).
I want to be able to create a Zombie Mall Santa Apocalypse breaking out during my penthouse Christmas party where Rudolph shows up to save my life by crashing the sleigh into my balcony to make an exit, I then ride Rudolph shooting lasers from his nose shooting down Zombie reindeer because it turns out Santa has gone evil and Kaiju'd himself in downtown MC wreaking havoc and the only way to defeat him is Kaiju'ing myself up using Rudolph's Christmas Magic and dueling with Kaiju Clause using the RenCen Christmas tree as a sword while my buddy, who was at the party but knocked unconscious and forced to fight his way down the stairs fending off a rampaging flood of Christmas elves, makes his way to help but suddenly notices a door in Santa's left foot, enters it, and discovers that Santa is actually a giant mech monster being controlled by little alien elf-ish creatures bent on conquering the world, and are powering the thing using a chained up Santa, who my buddy proceeds to free and protect from more alien elf flood, while I attempt to subdue the Alien Monster Mecha Kaiju Clause, but my Christmas Kaiju Magic wears off and AMMKC is about to stomp me when Rudolph heroically pushes me out of the way and gets crushed by the very same foot where Santa and my buddy are exiting and get a close up of the Now-Puddled-Rudolph crunch, sending him into a Christmas Miracle Rage and destroying the AMMKC and sending the aliens packing....
And that's when the adventure begins!!
And I want to be able to set time limits.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Mission Architect's inherent problem was being able to create mobs that had easily resistible attacks that lacked any side-effects, on top of a bad mission UI system. We shouldn't have those problems with the Foundry.
The foundry system basically restricts the total daily reward you can obtain through custom missions, right?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
From what I've read of STO's version, I'm pretty sure that's what it does too.
...Well, any more than what is already inherent to our Freeform system. Whereas people really only were able to make min maxed frankenmissions designed to be piss easy to whatever flavor of character they are, themeless bastardizations of the CO power system are already used here to do the same on the opposite side.
Central point being: This crap is going to be exploited no matter what, if it's flexible and grants rewards in any manner. It's more a matter of A: How exploitable and B: How much you really care that it is. My not giving a crap about this sort of stuff is legendary in the case of stuff like the foundry, because it's too rich a resource to be so easily deterred.
This however, is saying nothing of Cryptic's ability to deliver. As much as I'd like to see The Foundry in CO RITE NAO, more reasonably I have to admit that the idea of waiting until we see how the updated version works out in NWO before any sort of real implementation is even considered over here, is much smarter than rushing it.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I on the other hand absolutely reject the idea of a Foundry that doesn't serve as alternate leveling content and believe that such an addition would be a colossal waste of time and resources that will appeal only to an insignificant segment of the population and would be a meaningless addition to the game.
The reason I want the Foundry is because I DON'T want to do missions or stupid Smash Alerts to grind my way to level 40 anymore. I would rather play another game than do that. And the very fact that we have--and you even mention in your very post--Smash Alerts renders every argument about XP exploit farming irrelevant.
What's more like a meaningless CoX AE XP farm mission than a Smash Alert? If we already have Smash Alerts who ****ing CARES how I quick level my way to 40 if I please? What makes a Smash Alert a more acceptable quick leveling content than a Foundry mission?
Alternate leveling content is one of the two things that this game needs the most right now, the other being end game content (which I have little hope the devs will ever get around making--or alternate leveling content, for that matter, but the Foundry at least could help with that). The main reason I'm even supporting the Foundry right now, and participated in those recent discussions was in the hopes of adding viable alternate content to the game, whose lack of I believe is the main reason for so much discontent among veteran players.
NWN1 was the only UGC game I ever played that was trully successful (there may have been other successful games with UGC, but my primary experience was from that), and one of the reasons I believe that game had so much success was the freedom it provided for creating ANY type of content you want with no limitations. People could create whole persistent worlds with it, modify the rule sets, even add new tile sets and cosmetic elements for characters. The reason for NWN1's success was that you could experience the whole game through UGC alone.
A Foundry with no leveling capabilities wont let you do that. It will just be this tacked on element that has nothing to do directly with the rest of the game and has no bearing with events in it what so ever. It will just serve as a tool for the small portion of the population that wants to tell their own stories or care to hear the stories of others, but provide nothing significant to the game at large.
I just have these stories I want to tell, and I want others to experience; and I want to see what stories other people can tell, and (like any true player) see how I can send the whole thing hopelessly off the rails.
I've never constructed a mission in STO, because apparently you need to be Gold to do that, and I have no interest in STO's Gold bennies; if that video is anything to go by, though, it does look like you can make the dialog trees as long and intricate as you want, with plenty of branching to different options, which will help at least simulate AI. I'm probably going to be pulling a couple of all-nighters crafting dialog for the Magna Carta Scenario if we do ever get a Foundry here. (I'll need to come up with a snappier title, too...)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The ability to tailor a mission to EXACTLY what you want is the huge exploit of user content.
Smash, you face characters with preset ability bundles. You don't get much say in what they can do, or where they spawn, or anything.
Mission Architect was a heart-breaker because every time the devs worked on it, nearly every mission had to be reworked because countless small things got changed or removed. OH, that mob that you were using only for atmosphere got removed because farmers were exploiting them in some weird situation. OH, that really amusing idle animation of struggling with a chicken was removed because apparently coming out of the animation was slow and made the enemy easier to kill (this happened. My goblins struggling with chickens around a cookpot ... sigh)
Rinse, repeat, over and over.
Yes, I'd rather have user content with advancement, but if it's a choice between attempting that and ending up with a bleeding wreck OR having a no-reward system with lots of cool stories, I vote for stories.
Or perhaps a middle ground -- have a restricted option for Foundry in which certain maps and preset mob packages are allowed and have full rewards, and then a more open option with any combination of powers nad maps but no rewards.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
There were these huge rock guys -- your character was about as big as their foot. I had some mission where you were fighting cultists who were calling up earth elementals.
You come across these guys in some sort of 'casting' animation with power flying around, and they were gathered around this heap of boulders. When you killed them, the heap of boulders woke up... and up... and UP. (The sleeping animation for the rock creature was mostly UNDERGROUND, so you only saw a small bit of it)
In another mission I had necromantic golems which used another giant creature (Adamastor), though he was only about 10-15 feet tall.
Sigh. I miss MA -- I ended up quitting CoX the last time because more dev effort was spent removing stuff than adding stuff. Meh.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
You mentioned exploit-ability out of leveling and rewards, which is understandable. I personally saw the City of Heroes mission architect in its most exploitable set. With the whole Reach level cap in under a week videos, where you basically go into farming rooms and spam aoes, hit the next set, spam aoes, and the mobs keep respawning and using an exploitable aoe the player was able to farm like an insane Japanese rice cultist.
But lets say, you had a limited number of entries into foundry quests, similar to the Comic Series. Like say 5 a day or 3 or something. Limiting entry can force the rewards allowed to be granted up. But it would also force a minimum requirement for quest length in order for the reward to be something valuable.
For instance if reward for completing entire mission = 2000q
Content creator must have at least 20 zones fully populated of traversable content, bosses etc. etc. Im just making up numbers but, general idea of....
Amount of UGC=appropriate reward
Force UGC creator to have a minimum amount of quests and zones complete before publishing the mission.
^^^^That'd be the only way I could see them pulling off rewards, which technically is the exact same way they do it in Star Trek.
So with rewards in question.
How do you think the rewards should cater towards new players?
Should this be something for new players?
How would you include new and non capped players into a system like this while making their time spent with it, worthwhile?
I would rather see an XP limit attached than a number of times you could run them, as an RPer I would like unlimited access for story telling.
Like all mods for other games, the modded areas would have tobe seperated form the vanilla. So you'd avoid the 'people just use it to make farms' aspect by containning most if not all of the reward to the mod area. It would have to go all the way and have the ability to adjust the fundimentals of the game like the combat system, powers, AI, and movement. It should even go so far as allowing for competative PVP scenerios or even totally open PvP. The gamemaster should also have the ability to make premade characters for play in the area. CO could be more like the PnP, where its a system that people use as a base for their own game.
Anything thats designed tobe incorperated into the main CO world would have tobe Dev OK'ed and added at least semi-officially. If its not activly controlled people will find someway to abuse it and it will end up in nerf hell. Of course, that's maybe something for the devs todo anyway. They could buy the best player content with store credit and make it offical content..like a writer/publisher relationship.
Of course, all of that is maybe a product that is it too big for its wrapper and best left to a totally new project. I don't know if they can actually get the ok for this sort of major long term effort from people who only seam tobe willing to bleed out the short term buck. The lockboxxes sucked away the last little bit of faith I had left for the future of CO though, so that leaves the devs in a new position with me. They could dissapoint my expectations by releasing something beyond the character creator that is actually hype-worthy.
@X-Hero Game Overed.
A lower level toon with some XP boosts can get a level in less than two minutes.
If foundry missions also allow powerleveling, so what?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Given how bad mob XP is in CO I wouldn't be too worried about farming missions for XP here.
Precisely.
We already have power-leveling missions. The developers made them for us.
Nor for drops, unless you're farming lock boxes. Globals, maybe? Though you'd have to figure out how to generate more globals-per-time than the grab alerts do ...
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
Depends.
The mobiles that appear in the Alerts do not drop lock boxes often; especially not in comparison to the amount of lock boxes dropped by the open world and instanced mission mobiles. And some people do want them. (Especially for stuff contained within them that will become valuable after that particular flavor of lock boxes stop dropping ... see the 4-slot legion's primary gear and the takofanes caches for the most recent example.)
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.