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Just to clarify - Selling Power?
pion01
Posts: 758 Arc User
Or are mods and junk going to drop outside of lockboxes?
Because as it stands now you can either buy, for real money, a vehicle which outperforms a Champion in almost every way.
Or you can get a drop and then buy, for real money, a key to unlock your drop for a chance to win a much more powerful vehicle.
And with the mods granting powers when you slot them, we are literally being sold powers. Individual abilities, or, worse yet, the random chance of, individual abilities. And the more money you shell out the, the more powerful you get.
What's worse is that now that we have to actually buy powers, and their upgraded ranks, for real money, Silver players still don't get to hue their powers? Because lets be real here, being Gold means **** to having vehicles.
I usually try to reserve judgement til I've actually played with or at least seen the system, but this whole implementation thing I greatly dislike.
The system itself sounds great, but hiding vehicles behind lockboxes, and then their powers behind more lockboxes, well, this is bull****.
I find it especially striking since nobody wanted vehicles for combat. We wanted vehicles for travel.
Where did the sudden idea that vehicles should not just be useable in combat, but replace it altogether even come from?
Because as it stands now you can either buy, for real money, a vehicle which outperforms a Champion in almost every way.
Or you can get a drop and then buy, for real money, a key to unlock your drop for a chance to win a much more powerful vehicle.
And with the mods granting powers when you slot them, we are literally being sold powers. Individual abilities, or, worse yet, the random chance of, individual abilities. And the more money you shell out the, the more powerful you get.
What's worse is that now that we have to actually buy powers, and their upgraded ranks, for real money, Silver players still don't get to hue their powers? Because lets be real here, being Gold means **** to having vehicles.
I usually try to reserve judgement til I've actually played with or at least seen the system, but this whole implementation thing I greatly dislike.
The system itself sounds great, but hiding vehicles behind lockboxes, and then their powers behind more lockboxes, well, this is bull****.
I find it especially striking since nobody wanted vehicles for combat. We wanted vehicles for travel.
Where did the sudden idea that vehicles should not just be useable in combat, but replace it altogether even come from?
Post edited by pion01 on
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And all the little boys and girls are exstatic now that they can have powerful vehicles that outperform their sucky ATs. Or something.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
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It leads to balancing and development priorities that stray from the core of the game.
It redirected resources into a system that, for the most part, was completely unnecessary away from something that may have enhanced the game of Champions Online, rather than turn it into Auto Assault.
It creates a foundation for an environment where the only way to win or progress is by spending more money.
They might drop, but at insufficient rates.
Not yet (you can outperform vehicles in combat as it currently stands, before this patch hits and probably after tpp), but it seems to be heading in that direction. Which concerns me greatly.
It concerns me greatly because it destroys the fun of having a super hero, replaces with a focus on vehicles.
In my experience, this makes the game more pay-to-win, which hurts business in the long-term as seen in other MMO's like Battlefield Heroes (which they have made strides to make it less pay-to-win and thus their business is doing better).
Additionally this game is a small MMO with a niche market focused on being a superhero game and being highly customizable.
As another poster put it (I forget the name), Batman rides his Batmobile. Batman isn't replaced by his Batmobile. The Dark Knight films are not with him in the vehicles all the time. Same thing for The Avengers. Or even the Justice League.
Make sense?
Yeah... LTS & Gold are getting a bad end of this deal, in a big way too.
Honestly you know what would make it fair?
That way they can still profit all they want from the mods themselves, and freeform on Gold or LTS is something you are truly unlimited with.
I don't think you can say "nobody" but the overwhelming majority of us (including myself), both on the forums and in-game, wanted vehicles for traveling. I even mocked vehicles for being overpowered before they came out. Sadly my mockery is turning into reality:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=161061
( Can I say I told you so yet?
Now THAT is a great question. I have some theories but no facts.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
I think they'll sell well at the cost of further alienating a core aspect of the player base. In turn, future releases will be less profitable as customer retention issues become more apparent.
I don't know, are you strong enough to punch through steel? :biggrin:
(I get your point, and I can agree. Your super-human strength should be your focus if you want it to be)
This is part of what concerns me greatly, yes.
Off topic, but do you think we could get Super Magnifier and Super Shrinker to stay on all the time? Like how Dark Aura works? That would be fun if we could.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
That's my point tho. Nobody wanted the vehicles for combat. They wanted them for travel, and combat as well, if it was possible, as a secondary priority.
Instead the speed has been nerfed, the prototypes were already OP'd and making all but the top tier characters replaceable nearly instantly, and that's before the R3 weapon mods.
At what point did combat overtake travel as the priority?
I'm cranking my cynicism all the way up for this prediction:
1 year from now, Champions Online will be a better example of pay2win than Cosmic Break.
All right guys, I set the bar high, but I think you can do it.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
When they felt they could monetize it all.
Off topic, but do you think we could get Super Magnifier and Super Shrinker to stay on all the time? Like how Dark Aura works? That would be fun if we could.
Ill do you one better...an entire AT built on size change like Marvels Ant-Man or DCs Giant Lad...GOD..i always thought that would be the coolest..and something even City of NEVER did...anyways..back to your originally scheduled rants...
To a superhero mmo.
Flying tanks and ambulances are not very superhero-ey.
Am i the only one who doesn't give a rats tukus for lockboxes or vehicles? I don't want a damn plane. I want other things fixed instead.....or a new zone....or fixing the dumb costume restrictions....
1. As i understand it MODs just drop, like any other loot (burst alerts) and are not in lock boxes. If that is true that invalidates 70% of your complaint.
2. Also, Vehicles being stronger than heroes is a myth (especially for free forms). Your to much of a CO O.G. for me to believe that your aren't capable of building a free form hero (even theme based) that cant out perform a vehicle. Can you imagine if kempo said he cant outperform a vehicle??
3. Its not fair to say nobody wanted vehicles for combat. I believe there would be rage post if vehicles didn't work on combat. What we know for sure is that people complained when they released travel powers that don't work in combat. If people expect travel powers to work in combat, what makes you think no one expect the much touted vehicles to work in combat?
4. You admit you didn't even try the system your self yet.
Again, i don't even like vehicles, but this post reads like a knee-jerk reaction full of exaggeration.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Meanwhile, GW2 has literal cash to gold conversions and TOR is going F2P next week with players having to buy the ability to take off their helmet and get an extra hotbar. And CoX, which had constant new content and an affordable cash shop, got the door slammed in its face by NCSoft.
The train's not only left the station, is well past Clarksville now.
I think it reads like a knee-jerk reaction full of exaggeration because you haven't yet experienced what I'm talking about. I can appreciate that what I'm saying won't ring true for everybody, but not the parts you're pointing out.
People always use this term pay2win, but since this is mostly a pve game, what would I be winning besides access to vehicles? Are you thinking they'll make content that you can't win without vehicles?
Vehicles are in lock boxes, Z-store, and drifter store.
Mods come with vehicles or can be found in the Q store, or drop as rewards. (lock boxes aren't the only way to get mods)
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
The most coherent answers I've received so far are basically that some players feel that if their completely free character isn't quite as awesome as the guy down the street who's been buying Zen since we first got Zen, it makes them feel bad, even though we're not in competition with each other. They want to be able to compare epeens and feel good about it.
I could see this as a complaint if PvP were a really huge part of CO. But it's not. And I really wish some folks would get over this.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Geesh not again...
pay to win is an expression meaning being able to pay real money for in game advantage.
Its like if a football team could pay to get more players than another team so they have an advantage.
It means people with more money get better able to play the game than people spending more time and becoming better players.
There are plenty of ways to make money (and most games do) without this slippery slope.
Vanity items, quality of life items etc, or heres a radical idea how about selling an expansion with something new to actually DO in the game?
Jonsills. Play a game called Battlefield Heroes by EA's Dutch subsidiary Easy Studios. You'll understand a lot more I think.
It's not a concept that can be put easily into written form, because it's partly subjective. What does happen is that it will KILL the fun in the game if the balance gets out of whack, and it is a balance thing.
Too little pay-to-win and you won't sell any micro-transaction stuff, because you have nothing people want. Additionally you will have people complain about being bored that they've hit max level and have no more room to grow stronger. You can go out of business as a MMO from having insufficient revenue.
Too much pay-to-win and you kill the fun of the game, trivializing everything you encounter and creating a hostile community full of arrogant have's and whiny have-not's (not that the whining isn't justified, but it is going to be a lot of negative hostility all around, and not fun). This will cause the game to decrease in size and therefore cut your revenue down and down until it reaches a threshold where either you make it less pay-to-win or you go out of business.
The answer is to find the happy medium, and have enough VOLUME to move sales and profit. Strive to keep current customers happy, recruit new customers, and make sure things work and are in balance.
It's not black & white, Jon. I wish you'd stop making comments like what you ended with and would OPEN YOUR MIND a bit to trying to understand this balance and why it is important both to the community and the MMO business. The key is in having fun. Game are more fun when they are in-balance.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Rank 1 mods come with vehicles, with two Rank 2 exceptions, and TT has confirmed here that there is no plan to include a way to recieve Mods in some non-lockbox way in the near future, and while "most" will be available as mission rewards, we don't know what rank they'll be, if that reward will be in the form of a Hover Tank Arsenal, or what those missions will be, because currently, there's 2 missions for vehicles - Nighthawk and Carrier.
You don't think that this will shift the balance of production away from the core CO gameplay the way alerts did?
The most coherent answer you've chosen to hear, maybe, but not the only one that was given. If you disagree with everything else, so be it, but don't pretend it's the only one you've been given that makes any sense.
Counterpoint: Isn't Battlefield Heroes a PVP game? Jon's talking about PVE.
IMO, any disussion about Pay4Power in MMOs went out the window the instant the words 'Chinese Gold Farmer' hit the gamer lexicon.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
You're right, my mistake, I was actually going to address that and got distracted - the other way is the Q store, which I'm not a big fan of, but you are correct, the option is there.
However, the top tier vehicles and mods are still lockbox based, which is my point - you can have base stuff, but an increased ability requires money
i.e. Selling Power.
note: On live? You mean like Lucky Gems? Vehicle Weapon Mods are not the same thing as the Lucky Gem type mods... or are you referring to the just updated today patch (since I just saw the splash page)? And if so, are you referring to the Drifter store? Because guess what - Drifter Salvage comes from lockboxes too.
You'd think it'd be more Play2Win. When the jets were first available you could do a daily to get a chance at one. That's how I got mine. Or you could grind Q and make enough to get one. Does having 3 jets and spending $0 on them mean I won?
The reason Pay2Win confuses me so much is because besides open alerts, there are no leaderboards. So how do we know who is winning?
Or like Microman who is standing in the RenCenter on a table right next to Dr Silverback and gives you some missions related to Dr Destroyer's lair. 'Cause you know, Champtions Online already has one IN GAME.
Perfect, then my question is answered and I concede my point.
Thank you.
edit: mostly.
Also the auctionhouse because they're not bound.
At the point that someone saw money in it.
They should just change the name of the game to Devices For Sale Online and be done with it.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
You guys complain about getting content, and now that you are getting this great vehicle system, you complain?
To have fun you have to spend a little money!
And Cryptic surely needs the money for further support!
Gw2 must really suck if trolling over here is more fun.
Just beat an even level hover tank on my force quarry build without breaking a sweat. Bionic shielding was enough to make it a nonthreat.
Vehicles are NOT stronger than players.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
You heard it here folks. One example makes the entire argument invalid. We can all go home now.
Take me seriously, I dare you.
they are and that every hero these days fires rockets from a jet instead of using something
like superpowers. So i think we got what the majority wanted, and only a small minority
wants maybe real playable content instead.
Now i wait for the day when they remove the costume-creator, and we select a ship to start
with and after that we one day we maybe can buy "Become Hero" devices :rolleyes:
Maybe they really should simply shut down the game instead of trying to milk the players
only with crap instead of really developing anything new that earns the name content.
Due to the nerf, it's possible and I don't know, but things to consider -
Your character is probably already equipped and being played by you - an experienced player with familiarity with the character.
Your opponent was brand new to the tank, and likely not outfitted with proper mods yet, using Rank 1 powers.
Now, I'm not saying this is all true, but it's just something to keep in mind. Vehicles are brand new, once figured out they will likely alter the curve. They will also probably make more money than adding content for non-vehicles.
Now, I could be completely wrong and vehicles will be balanced against characters, and the income they provide will not redirect resources away from core gameplay, which would be awesome.
Never said it did.
And don't worry, I don't take you seriously.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.