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What is Balance?

falchoinfalchoin Posts: 383 Arc User
edited November 2012 in Champions Online Discussion
I'm no expert, but I don't think this qualifies as "balanced"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8LWkUPnWZM&feature=youtu.be

Not that CO has ever really been a paragon of balance, but I liked pretending the devs at least tried. I can't even do that now.
Post edited by falchoin on
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Comments

  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    To be perfectly honest I am not sure that I get the point on this one. I've seen so many characters that can clear the powerhouse danger room on 5-man hard in a matter of seconds that what I saw there doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary.

    Not trying to be difficult, just not sure I understand how doing this in a minute and a half is a sign of imbalance when I know other builds, including some of your own I would suspect, that could do it more quickly.

    I am not saying that this is balanced, just that I am not sure how this is considered exceptional.


    PS: I think you might qualify as an expert.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • falchoinfalchoin Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    A good point. The PH battle station probably isn't the best place to showcase "unbalanced" because decent builds blow through it so quickly even when set to 5-man hard.

    As someone pointed out to me earlier, epidemic was probably dealing more damage than the dinos. That's only because the enemies are extremely squishy. Against targets with more hp (like legendary+ mobs) it would give more time for the AoED + massive amounts of pets to shine.

    Every entity affected by AoED can proc the effect up to twice per six seconds. So not only do you get a crazy amount of pets basically for free (and the hatchlings/coruscators are much better than rank 3 pet powers in terms of damage and survivability) you get more AoED procs to boot.

    I'll have to run this build vs Mega D and run a combatlog parse.

    EDIT:
    Tested vs Mega Destroid (adjusted number would be vs target without resistances)

    Time to kill - 221.7 seconds
    DPS Total - 5976 (9322 adjusted)
    DPS Breakdown - Raptor Bite, Spit, Radiation Breath, Spit Blast, Raptor Foot stomp, and Radiation Storm are all from the pheromones
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,404 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    We don't need Balance.
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  • titotito333999titotito333999 Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Sup Kali... Why you trying to kill my dream(6mones)? hehe... No but seriously, the only problem here is AoED awesomeness, 6 mones in our Pay-to-Win system just means more money for Cryptic. What are we winning here? coolness... maybe? Besides Kigatilik's costume drops there's really nothing to compete over... this game is dead already. Disclaimer: "I have not tested AoED since they first added the black lighting" so never mind if they fixed this already... But the real problem that I saw back then was that all that black lighting's damage credit was shared with multiple AoED's users. And we saw HUGE DPS numbers from the parser when there where multiple Pet AoED toons. Just my 2 cents but who gives a **** in the end anyway... not Cryptic in my experience hehe.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    balance/ˈbaləns/
    Noun:
    An even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.
    Verb:
    Keep or put (something) in a steady position so that it does not fall: "a mug that she balanced on her knee".
    Synonyms:
    noun. scales - equilibrium - equipoise - poise - scale
    verb. poise - weigh - equilibrate

    Thar we go BALANCE \o/
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  • keikomystkeikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    My Teleiosaur Pheremones are hanging out in my bank right now.

    I am very, VERY tempted to delete the item, because I don't want to contribute to anyone pulling this crap unless they're trying to prove a point, even if I'm compensated with a huge amount of G.
  • titotito333999titotito333999 Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    keikomyst wrote: »

    I am very, VERY tempted to delete the item, because I don't want to contribute to anyone pulling this crap unless they're trying to prove a point, even if I'm compensated with a huge amount of G.

    Give them to me... the point that I'm trying to make is that I look cool with 6 mones, I only need 3 more hehe. What crap are you referring to? AoED's awesome dps numbers can be done with just regular pets... now multiple mones that's just money in Crytptic hands... The game has changed once again with this Legacy Devices + Legion Gear. We all want some of them for whatever reason, Cryptic just decided to charge real money for them instead of a .000000000000003%(joke) chance drop or resource grinding. But I guess you answered my question about who gives a ****... here's another one, why do you give a ****?
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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,452 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    keikomyst wrote: »
    My Teleiosaur Pheremones are hanging out in my bank right now.

    I am very, VERY tempted to delete the item, because I don't want to contribute to anyone pulling this crap unless they're trying to prove a point, even if I'm compensated with a huge amount of G.

    Having them in the first place admits that you are contributing to the madness.
  • falchoinfalchoin Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    At the very least Cryptic will need to raise the target hit cap on AoEs from mobs like Mega Destroid. Not once did I get hit by his big PBAoE smash attack.

    I'm actually surprised at the dps from the Ebon Lightning procs. I figured it would have been more given the number of raptors. I guess I'm too used to seeing numbers vs Kigatilik (who has no resistances nor debuff resistance) and not Mega Destroid (who has a fair amount of resistance).

    If we assume more similar AoED builds with pets/pheromone devices in a team (or even teamup!) it gets all kinds of crazy. ~6k dps just from Ebon Lightning procs is theoretically possible in a rampage alert.

    Now I'm not saying that AoED is the only way to make the pheromone devices broken. Even without AoED the raptors from five pheromone devices is well over 2k dps vs Mega Destroid.

    Up till this point devices have mainly been fluff items and/or had very long cooldowns. Now Cryptic has implemented devices based on items that were primaries of some sort. You had to give up stats, often a large amount. There was at least some semblance of balance in the sacrifice of stats for an extra effect... and you could only have one of each type equipped at a time. It's not so hard to choose between pheromones and dried mistletoe or pretty much any other device in the game.
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  • lordhavelocklordhavelock Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    ashensnow wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest I am not sure that I get the point on this one. I've seen so many characters that can clear the powerhouse danger room on 5-man hard in a matter of seconds that what I saw there doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary... ...I think you might qualify as an expert.
    Yeah, I'm with Ashensnow on this one... Even I have toons that can wipe the PH's 5xHard fairly easily as your video did, and I don't have any of the Legacy Devices. ...And I'm not sure I'd call myself an Expert CO player (yet). Probably in the "above average" area, but not Expert. :rolleyes:

    But as FlyingFinn eluded to, I like feeling Overpowered. I don't PvP, but I could see why those that do/want to would be concerned... But for me... I don't really need balance. I like my Super Heroes to be Super!

    :biggrin:
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  • lokikinlokikin Posts: 624 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Balance is what I begin to lose after a twelve pack and a few shots...

    :biggrin:
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  • twg042370twg042370 Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    The superhero's job is to go beat up villains. Anything that allows them to do this is working as it should.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    twg042370 wrote: »
    The superhero's job is to go beat up villains. Anything that allows them to do this is working as it should.

    You...you...VILLIANPHOBE :O

    Each time a hero clicks their fingers a villain gets Force Geysered in Multifaria.
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  • arimikamiarimikami Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    But as FlyingFinn eluded to, I like feeling Overpowered. I don't PvP, but I could see why those that do/want to would be concerned... But for me... I don't really need balance. I like my Super Heroes to be Super!

    :biggrin:

    The big problem with that, imo, is replayability and retention. Being too overpowered increases the chances that players will grow bored much quicker for a couple reasons.

    If you're too powerful then nothing takes any effort or thought. You just go into any encounter lazily clicking a few buttons without paying any real attention to what you're doing, and collect your rewards. How long it takes for people to ge bored with this will vary from person to person but, eventually, everyone will get very bored with it and seek entertainment that's actually engaging in some fashion.

    It also means there's no reason for you to team with people which removes a very large dynamic from MMO gameplay. Why would you bother to team with others when you already know they're not needed, may get in your way, and will take a share of the rewards you could get on your own?

    In addition to that, it also means there's a decreased chance people will want to team with you. People play these games to actually play them. Sure, there's times when someone will want the help of a massively overpowered character and some people may actually want to be shephered through the game without actually doing anything on their own but, I think it's a safe bet that others will not want to actually play the game with someone so powerful that there's no point in the nonoverpowered person even being there. I know there were times when I was bored doing lairs because a level 40 joined the team and then refused to sidekick down to the level of others. More than that, I was a little pissed. IMO it defeated the point of me even being there and taking part and I felt I could have better used my time doing something else.

    The end result of all of this is people loitering around in MC, talking in zone chat, and being bored while they wait for the next alert to start so they can do a minute or two of actual gameplay to pick up some meager rewards before finally getting tired enough of that that they just don't log in anymore.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,404 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Well, the balance was found, VEHICLES are now balanced.
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  • mainscrizzmainscrizz Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    arimikami wrote: »
    The big problem with that, imo, is replayability and retention. Being too overpowered increases the chances that players will grow bored much quicker for a couple reasons.

    LOL, and how long have you been playing this game?

    This game has always been ROFLstomp easy.
    Even after they added Elite difficulty, it's still ROFLOLable.

    The reason people get bored is the lack of content and nothing to do really at lvl40.

    This game isn't about balance.
    The whole freeform system kinda makes that impossible too Unless they make all powers the same and just make them re-skins.

    Thanks to people crying and whining because they didn't get something, now the jets will be slow and be useless.
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  • arimikamiarimikami Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    mainscrizz wrote: »
    LOL, and how long have you been playing this game?

    This game has always been ROFLstomp easy.
    Even after they added Elite difficulty, it's still ROFLOLable.

    The reason people get bored is the lack of content and nothing to do really at lvl40.

    This game isn't about balance.
    The whole freeform system kinda makes that impossible too Unless they make all powers the same and just make them re-skins.

    Thanks to people crying and whining because they didn't get something, now the jets will be slow and be useless.

    And how long is new content supposed to keep someone's attention when everything in the game is easymode even on max dif, can be done in about 10 minutes, and doesn't need a team?
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,404 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Longer than the nonexistend one. With or without "balance".
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  • arimikamiarimikami Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    Longer than the nonexistend one. With or without "balance".

    What? You want something you can breeze right through with no thought or effort at all right at your fingertips to run through as much as you want? I have good news! This game has that. It's called Alerts. Rejoice, Finn. CO has exactly what you've been asking for all along.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,404 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    Where did you pick that Alerts are what i been asking for a long time? Or 'breeze right through with no thought or effort at all' ? I don't think i have said anything like that anywhere.
    Quite opposite. But i hope we get balance so the content isn't right breeze througable. Seems that is what you want. Or maybe they could make some New content that isnt Roflstompable. Go figure.
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  • arimikamiarimikami Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    Where did you pick that Alerts are what i been asking for a long time? Or 'breeze right through with no thought or effort at all' ? I don't think i have said anything like that anywhere.
    Quite opposite. But i hope we get balance so the content isn't right breeze througable. Seems that is what you want. Or maybe they could make some New content that isnt Roflstompable. Go figure.

    Then it seems we do see eye to eye because I want something that does provide something of a challenge so that it's actually engaging when it's done. The problem is creating that when it's possible to make characters that are severly imbalanced. I also think new content should be team orriented because that would create an ever changing dynamic based on the make up of the team that would make running it different every time that content was ran so that it would retain replayability much longer.
  • mainscrizzmainscrizz Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    arimikami wrote: »
    Then it seems we do see eye to eye because I want something that does provide something of a challenge so that it's actually engaging when it's done. The problem is creating that when it's possible to make characters that are severly imbalanced. I also think new content should be team orriented because that would create an ever changing dynamic based on the make up of the team that would make running it different every time that content was ran so that it would retain replayability much longer.

    good luck with the PUGs
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,963 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    keikomyst wrote: »
    My Teleiosaur Pheremones are hanging out in my bank right now.

    I am very, VERY tempted to delete the item, because I don't want to contribute to anyone pulling this crap unless they're trying to prove a point, even if I'm compensated with a huge amount of G.

    You can give them to me! My Tech char is a bit of a dabbler in biology and biochemistry, would fit her theme perfectly :biggrin:
  • arimikamiarimikami Posts: 475 Arc User
    edited November 2012
    mainscrizz wrote: »
    good luck with the PUGs

    Thanks. I'd say good luck with thoughtless posts that serve no purpose but, you seem to have that down.
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