One less competitor -- CoH to close down

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Comments

  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Non-fantasy does not equal superhero. I do not have another option for a superhero MMO.

    True, but a lot of people who play CoX and CO do so, not because it's a superhero game, but because it's not a fantasy game.

    Look at how many Spacemarines, MG wielding merc's, giant robots, ect... there are in these games. Clearly not everyone wants to be a classic tights wearing super hero.

    Those people are not nearly so selective on what they play, as long as it's not fantasy. So while some people leaving CoX will want something with capes, and would rather do something else rather then play a non-superhero MMO. There are still going to be a number of people who simply want something that doesn't involve elfs, orc's, swords and magic.

    I have no idea what the breakdown on the player base will be, but then again no else does either. I just know from the posts I've read back in CoX and here, that a fairly large number of people don't care if the game is based on superheroes or not, just as long as it's not fantasy.
  • gandales
    gandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Not sure what it is the actual point here. Superhero mmos has been and are a niche market, not really big compared to fantasy genre. We can find players that are superhero or nothing, others that are more about customization, other about gameplay, etc. Given that the mmo giants have huge amount of resoureces compared to niche mmos like CO,CoX, DCUO. I would dare to say that most of the players in those mmos are highly interested in superhero mmos.

    Does this mean that every CoX player will go to another superhero mmo? Not really, but I think most of them will give them a try before looking in broader scifi, horror or fantasy. Maybe for those who had played CoX for many years a change could be benefitial, since it would be easier to avoid comparisons and unrealistic expectations. Imho, every genre and even every game has its own share of charms.

    The question posted in this thread that it is good for CO that CoX is closing. Imho, yes, the same way it would have been if CO was closing and CoX was planned to stay for long time. This is not about us wishing for CoX closing or not, it might happen or not. I am certain that most of CO players wish CoX fans luck in their efforts to avoid its closure but that's a different matter.

    While competition is nice, that is true for the big guys but for the niche games, the gain in investing in a reduced market rarely ends into a profit. On the other hand, a certain increase in potential subscribers might get them to try to capture them, but changing pace in developmente is not a thing that happen overnight, but I hope they will give some push to bug fixing and some new content, by the end of this year.
  • lovehammer1
    lovehammer1 Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I play co because I like playing superheroes. It's the reason I chose CO. My only other option is DCUO and that's not an option for me because of it's lack of character customisation.I'm also not interested in playing a Marvel character in Marvel Online when it comes out, I like creating my own toons.

    Non-fantasy does not equal superhero. I do not have another option for a superhero MMO.
    Umm^^ this is what i already said.

    LOL. anyway, the point here is with so many fantasy games and such out there to choose from, you most likely really like "SUPERHEROES" if you play this game or have played COH.

    Meaning most people who play this game (Die Hard players) wouldn't just go "ho hum" "I will just go play" WoW now. Otherwise, this game would already be dead. I mean really, if this game is so niche and such why is it still going?

    People need their heroes, that's why. And yes, i play it BECAUSE it's a SUPERHERO game!
  • nepht
    nepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Something to mull over here plus massive rant.

    At the moment on a Winnebago camping trip (not my choice) and Ima stuck with my netbook the only MMO it seem to play is WoW. So at the moment I am playing WoW....and its dreadful.

    Its full of min maxing, loot hogging , team kicking, Chuck Norris joke making a$$a'ma'holes and thats the problem with ALL fantasy MMO's they are ALL full of a$$a'ma'holes. DCUO has a$$'ma'holes and a larger Liga Brazil* :/

    CoX and CO arnt like that. The people who play those two games are the most normal friendly people on the whole of the freaking internets and in general its the same lot. ( I learned of Champions Online while playing City of Heroes )

    So having one of the games close is bad news just full stop.

    And it being closed because its old and a bit ugly is a BS reason . Heres a list of Old and Ugly games that are epic.

    Final Fantasy XI <
    its got chocobos.
    DDO
    I suppose WOW should go in here.
    Second Life <
    I made a gun that fires elephants try dodging that :D
    EvE Online <
    I can commit horrid acts of space piracy >:C
    Anarchy Online
    Asherons Call <
    single most ugliest game made by man..still freaking epic.
    Dark Age of Camelot
    Ultima Online
    The Chinese version of Perfect World
    Maple Story <
    shut up I get to run around in my underwear witha bucket on mah head.
    *********

    Damn game shouldnt be sunsetting all the games above apart from WoW , Chinese Perfect World and Second Life all have less players than CoX.

    I swear to all thats holy the head of NCSOFT isa moron. They are in the red and they axe one of the few games that make them monies..thats moon people logic right thar -.-



    *I have plenty of Brazilian buddys in CO and CoX but the facts are Liga Brazil as a super group are the biggest hackers in DCUO.
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  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nepht wrote: »
    And it being closed because its old and a bit ugly is a BS reason . Heres a list of Old and Ugly games that are epic.

    Not to put people down about this, but this is such an oft misquoted or misunderstood due to people misquoting the facts. I know certain individuals from certain groups have gone overboard in perpetuating the misinformation, and often states that CoH was making a large amount of profit such as quoting an $800k a month as profit (which is actually false). CoH was making $800k in monthly revenue, not profit. This would also place the player base, at best, around 55k subs, and that's ignoring that anyone was buying Paragon Store points.

    Best guesses from people more knowledgeable than me puts the amount of money CoH was making as profit at barely treading water to actually being in the red.

    I also know rumors were perpetuated that other companies were exceptionally interested in buying CoH, and people believe NCSoft didn't try. Several of the companies that people claimed were hugely interested in CoH, stepped forward and personally debunked the rumors themselves with statements along the lines of that they were not and never were interested.
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  • crypticarmsman
    crypticarmsman Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    danqueller wrote: »
    I love it when people say "It's a good thing, as long as it's happening to someone else". Shows a good sense of judgement on the value of things. Unless of course, it does happen to you...in which case, suddenly, it isn't a good thing.

    And I dont' know how you could say the title isn't the best choice when it seems pretty clear and to the point.

    Funny thing though - When Tabula Rasa got shut down by NCSoft, and the fdormer palyers subscriptions were transferred to CoX; I remember CoX players stating uit was probably a good thing for their game in the long run.

    The point: I think some CoX players are a little over sensetive (and BTW, I was one of the group of the first 300 to beta test CoH back in 2003 and was subbed up until the great MA bebacle in 2009 - so it's not like I never played or enjoyed CoX; or don't feel a tinge of dissapointment NCSoft is pulling the plug. BUT, if you read this thread, there's nothing vindictive to read into the title - it's honestly a statement of a fact on the board of the game that is/was competing with CoX.

    And as much as you have CoX players postinfg a large thread on their boards entitled "CO Just Doesn't Cut it" - CoX players have to realize that not everyone into superhero MMOs feels CoX "was the best of the bunch"; and posters here who do play amd enjoy CO are going to post their own opinions on either CoX, CO (and DCUO); and very rarely will there be any real malice involved.
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  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Umm^^ this is what i already said. LOL ..snip!


    Yes, but I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to captvanor(just like you), which is

    why I quoted him. You can keep your "umm" and your "LOL", they're not needed. You could

    have seen my post as a confirmation of yours instead of attempting to take the mick.
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  • nepht
    nepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Not to put people down about this, but this is such an oft misquoted or misunderstood due to people misquoting the facts. I know certain individuals from certain groups have gone overboard in perpetuating the misinformation, and often states that CoH was making a large amount of profit such as quoting an $800k a month as profit (which is actually false). CoH was making $800k in monthly revenue, not profit. This would also place the player base, at best, around 55k subs, and that's ignoring that anyone was buying Paragon Store points.

    Best guesses from people more knowledgeable than me puts the amount of money CoH was making as profit at barely treading water to actually being in the red.

    I also know rumors were perpetuated that other companies were exceptionally interested in buying CoH, and people believe NCSoft didn't try. Several of the companies that people claimed were hugely interested in CoH, stepped forward and personally debunked the rumors themselves with statements along the lines of that they were not and never were interested.

    C'mon the figure of $10 mill a year in PROFIT has been verified by NCSOFT themselves .
    You know what, if we really look at it NCSOFT shut down CoX because they didnt want to give Perfect World what ever royalties its was due each year for the CoX engine.

    Thats the only reason that makes actual sense. Kicking themselves in the bawls just to spite a rival.
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  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nepht wrote: »
    C'mon the figure of $10 mill a year in PROFIT has been verified by NCSOFT themselves .

    I've heard that a lot, but I've yet to see anything that actually backs that up.
  • lovehammer1
    lovehammer1 Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Yes, but I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to captvanor(just like you), which is

    why I quoted him. You can keep your "umm" and your "LOL", they're not needed. You could

    have seen my post as a confirmation of yours instead of attempting to take the mick.
    Wow. I meant no harm. I'm sorry you saw it that way. Maybe you can take that effed up attitude and put it to good use in game. Maybe against Gravitar? She's a beetch i hear.

    Otherwise, internet tough guy...don't be so narrow minded. it was more in response to someone esle saying "Most people are not selective in what they play" and was showing that indeed there are. Us (you and i) being examples of those people. Wow! Some people. I hope you get that fixed. Your attitude, that is.
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nepht wrote: »
    C'mon the figure of $10 mill a year in PROFIT has been verified by NCSOFT themselves .
    You know what, if we really look at it NCSOFT shut down CoX because they didnt want to give Perfect World what ever royalties its was due each year for the CoX engine.

    Thats the only reason that makes actual sense. Kicking themselves in the bawls just to spite a rival.

    They've only called it revenue, they've never called it profit, and in fact it can be simply proven by demonstration of actual costs that they weren't making $10 million in profit a year. In fact, their report said that CoH was only 2% of NCSoft's revenue, that's a big difference from profit. Example, you can make $1500 a month, but if you have to pay $1500 in bills, you've made no profit.

    Simple fact the cost of running Paragon Studios alone would have pushed any of that revenue to breaking even, easily, that's not including monthly maintenance costs or bills for the buildings, maintenance, city, water and power, and such like that.

    I know people don't want to believe those facts, but really; it can be easily verified.

    The truth is, that if CoH was making $10 million in profit, NCSoft wouldn't have killed it. I know there is a lot of hearsay about how NCSoft hates the west, and such, but business is business and they wouldn't just arbitrarily cut it like that. And there is evidence, and people who have run the figures people who actually know this stuff, that have demonstrated that CoH was either just barely treading water, breaking even, or quite possibly, was operating in the red.

    And before people say, I left CoH because of NCSoft, so there is no love lost there between me and them. But trying to deny facts isn't helping either.
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  • notburningchick
    notburningchick Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I know people don't want to believe those facts, but really; it can be easily verified.
    Can you pull up some links to support your facts? A quote from an NCSoft exec, perchance? Or something from Bryan Clayton? Anything?

    'Cause I've looked and I've got nothin' concrete.

    Except ...

    Paragon Studios, even if it was treading water, was supporting CoH and a 50+ dev team working on a new title.. That strongly suggests that CoH was operating in the black.

    Or, at least, wasn't a drain on NCSoft's resources.
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Can you pull up some links to support your facts? A quote from an NCSoft exec, perchance? Or something from Bryan Clayton? Anything?

    'Cause I've looked and I've got nothin' concrete.

    Except ...

    Paragon Studios, even if it was treading water, was supporting CoH and a 50+ dev team working on a new title.. That strongly suggests that CoH was operating in the black.

    Or, at least, wasn't a drain on NCSoft's resources.

    Just looking at the revenue report that. Just because they had a large development staff doesn't mean that they were operating in the black. The closing of several companies over the last few years is proof of that.
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  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Just looking at the revenue report that. Just because they had a large development staff doesn't mean that they were operating in the black. The closing of several companies over the last few years is proof of that.


    Okay here's facts for you.

    They laid off 80 people.
    There were two teams of developers in the studio.
    Those working on CoH, those working on "The Super Secret Project" and somewhere between 5 and 10 office staffers shared between the two groups.

    They were a studio in a development cycle (see "Super Secret Project"). So their cost outlays for personnel were higher than any other time save Going Rogue.

    So yes, likely during the last couple quarters, Paragon has not been pulling in the profit they would were they a leaner operation (maybe 30 devs and 4-5 staffers) concentrated solely on CoH. But that also meant the studio would be completely stagnant.

    Hit up Glassdoor.com and check out what NC Staffers have to say about working with NCSoft.

    Basically they're almost wholly fixated on their far east market and their US branch is a victim of severe neglect and considered outright unworthy of trust or any sort of decision making capacity whatsoever.

    This was not, and never was, about the Cryptic Engine. It was licensed to NCSoft IN PERPETUITY. With an allowance for it to be used in a second game from an NC-funded studio.

    CoH is being killed because it's a casual game, not one of these "get you addicted" grind-and-gear that are NC's bread and butter. It's being killed because it's based on an American paradigm (comic books) that just doesn't do anything for most people in the far east markets (where most of their umpty-jillion players are).

    And most of all, it's being killed because once NCSoft gets their hands on a property, it either makes the money they want or they bury it. They were essentially being given a carte blanche by the ex-Paragon crew for the CoH property. They didn't even really come to the table.

    They'd rather burn the game down and sow the ashes with salt and lime than possibly have anyone else take the property and run with it.

    NC has been a good shepherd for CoH for the past five years. Not the most attentive (ZERO advertising budget? REALLY?), but they kept the game alive. That's why this sudden, "hell bent for leather" approach to nuking the game is confusing and crazy.

    Also, if you want to know if Paragon was in the black? Ask the guys doing the books.
    Why EXACTLY do you think Brian Clayton was so hot to get his hands on the property?

    10-ish million dollars in revenue for a game like CoH may not be "WoW money" or "NCSoft money", but that's a respectable sum that could keep a lean, focused studio in the black for a couple years while they get another project out the door. Especially if they were more savvy about licensing their property. CoH comic books? A CoH RPG (like the one the NCSoft sale killed)?

    CoH had an in-depth mythos, with a cast of MILLIONS of PC superheroes, that was just BEGGING for merchandising.
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    10-ish million dollars in revenue for a game like CoH may not be "WoW money" or "NCSoft money", but that's a respectable sum that could keep a lean, focused studio in the black for a couple years while they get another project out the door. Especially if they were more savvy about licensing their property. CoH comic books? A CoH RPG (like the one the NCSoft sale killed)?

    Since most of your post generally ignores the reality, here let me explain the difference in revenue and profit. Revenue is what money you get. Profit is what money you have left over after you pay the bills. Plain and simple English, you can spin a top anyway you want, but fact of the matter is if they were actually pulling that kind of money as profit the reality might be different.

    But it wasn't profit, it was revenue. You can say revenue till you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, and people have already speculated and backed up the answers with facts else where, CoH wasn't even pulling close to $10 mill in profit annually. Put it mildly, as much as people pretend, if you only pull $50,000 a year, you aren't going to be able to live a $100,000 life style.

    As I stated elsewhere in this thread and you blatantly ignored, if you make $1500 a month, but your bills are only $1500, you've made no profit. If you only make $1500 a month and your bills are $1750, you are in the red. Again, if CoH was as profitable as people like to believe, they wouldn't have cut it so willingly like people believe. And that's the keyword everyone wants to ignore; profitable. And even their financial report shows that CoH was only 2% of their revenue, not profits.

    Let's put it another way, if CoH was bringing in $10 mill a year annually, though the reports were showing a consistent and steady decline, but the cost to run the product and staff was $12 million a year (estimated worst case scenario from some people making educated guesses), what profit is CoH making?
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  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Okay here's facts for you.

    They laid off 80 people.
    There were two teams of developers in the studio.
    Those working on CoH, those working on "The Super Secret Project" and somewhere between 5 and 10 office staffers shared between the two groups.

    They were a studio in a development cycle (see "Super Secret Project"). So their cost outlays for personnel were higher than any other time save Going Rogue.

    So yes, likely during the last couple quarters, Paragon has not been pulling in the profit they would were they a leaner operation (maybe 30 devs and 4-5 staffers) concentrated solely on CoH. But that also meant the studio would be completely stagnant.

    Hit up Glassdoor.com and check out what NC Staffers have to say about working with NCSoft.

    Basically they're almost wholly fixated on their far east market and their US branch is a victim of severe neglect and considered outright unworthy of trust or any sort of decision making capacity whatsoever.

    This was not, and never was, about the Cryptic Engine. It was licensed to NCSoft IN PERPETUITY. With an allowance for it to be used in a second game from an NC-funded studio.

    CoH is being killed because it's a casual game, not one of these "get you addicted" grind-and-gear that are NC's bread and butter. It's being killed because it's based on an American paradigm (comic books) that just doesn't do anything for most people in the far east markets (where most of their umpty-jillion players are).

    And most of all, it's being killed because once NCSoft gets their hands on a property, it either makes the money they want or they bury it. They were essentially being given a carte blanche by the ex-Paragon crew for the CoH property. They didn't even really come to the table.

    They'd rather burn the game down and sow the ashes with salt and lime than possibly have anyone else take the property and run with it.

    NC has been a good shepherd for CoH for the past five years. Not the most attentive (ZERO advertising budget? REALLY?), but they kept the game alive. That's why this sudden, "hell bent for leather" approach to nuking the game is confusing and crazy.

    Also, if you want to know if Paragon was in the black? Ask the guys doing the books.
    Why EXACTLY do you think Brian Clayton was so hot to get his hands on the property?

    10-ish million dollars in revenue for a game like CoH may not be "WoW money" or "NCSoft money", but that's a respectable sum that could keep a lean, focused studio in the black for a couple years while they get another project out the door. Especially if they were more savvy about licensing their property. CoH comic books? A CoH RPG (like the one the NCSoft sale killed)?

    CoH had an in-depth mythos, with a cast of MILLIONS of PC superheroes, that was just BEGGING for merchandising.

    That right there is a lot of supposition, inference, hearsay, general theory crafting, and circumstantial evidence (at best).

    I suppose one could just as easily answer supposition with supposition. If the game was generating significant levels of profit NCsoft, a for profit corporation, has made a a decision to lower their profits. This seems counterproductive to the, assumed, goal of a for profit corporation to increase profits. One might suppose, in light of the assumption that for profit corporations prefer to not reduce their profits if at all possible, that the closure of COX does not significantly reduce NCsoft's profits. This would only be the case if COX was not producing significant profits.

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  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Wow. I meant no harm. I'm sorry you saw it that way. Maybe you can take that effed up attitude and put it to good use in game. Maybe against Gravitar? She's a beetch i hear.

    Otherwise, internet tough guy...don't be so narrow minded. it was more in response to someone esle saying "Most people are not selective in what they play" and was showing that indeed there are. Us (you and i) being examples of those people. Wow! Some people. I hope you get that fixed. Your attitude, that is.

    If it was a response to someone else, quote and respond to someone else. Drop your fake

    outrage and petty comments. You can get your cheap internet greifing points at someone

    else's expense.
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  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since most of your post generally ignores the reality, here let me explain the difference in revenue and profit. Revenue is what money you get. Profit is what money you have left over after you pay the bills. Plain and simple English, you can spin a top anyway you want, but fact of the matter is if they were actually pulling that kind of money as profit the reality might be different.

    I did no such thing.

    I understand the difference between revenue (gross) and profit (net). At no point was I trying to represent the $10-million figure as "profit".

    I'm not pretending my numbers are perfect (they aren't, I haven't actually looked at Paragon's books myself).

    I don't know what average pay was for the studio members. Seeing as it's in NorCal, it wasn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination (I turned down a job there a few years back because, even though I would have been making double what I was at the time, I'd have actually have been losing money due to cost of living). Drop benefits, etc on top of that.

    Drop facility costs and the ammortization of equipment costs on top of that.

    The actual costs to host the game itself were comparatively miniscule. They've been hosted in NC West's hosting facility for the last couple years now. But, knowing what commodity rackspace and bandwidth go for in that market, it was among NC's smallest expenditures on the game.
    As I stated elsewhere in this thread and you blatantly ignored, if you make $1500 a month, but your bills are only $1500, you've made no profit. If you only make $1500 a month and your bills are $1750, you are in the red. Again, if CoH was as profitable as people like to believe, they wouldn't have cut it so willingly like people believe. And that's the keyword everyone wants to ignore; profitable. And even their financial report shows that CoH was only 2% of their revenue, not profits.

    Again, I haven't "blatantly ignored" a damn thing. You're basing at least a portion of your argument on the supposition that it wasn't profitable in any way, shape or form.

    Also, you failed to acknowledge that Paragon was essentially hosting a full second team of devs working on a new property that wasn't in any way, shape, or form, pulling in revenue yet.
    Let's put it another way, if CoH was bringing in $10 mill a year annually, though the reports were showing a consistent and steady decline, but the cost to run the product and staff was $12 million a year (estimated worst case scenario from some people making educated guesses), what profit is CoH making?

    So, like me, you're basing your argument off an estimate. Essentially an ***pull number and carefully girding your argument with carefully worded generalities and misrepresentations of data.

    I say again, a group of employees from Paragon thought that the property had enough legs, with the caveats of a leaner, more focused studio to pull in real backers actually pony up an offer to NCSoft.

    If you want to discuss this, I'm more than willing to oblige you.
    But please, leave the mudslinging to politicians.
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Again, I haven't "blatantly ignored" a damn thing. You're basing at least a portion of your argument on the supposition that it wasn't profitable in any way, shape or form.

    Also, you failed to acknowledge that Paragon was essentially hosting a full second team of devs working on a new property that wasn't in any way, shape, or form, pulling in revenue yet.
    You can ignore all you want but that full second team costs money. Running the servers and technicians for those servers costs money. Paying the maintenance crew costs money. Paying the bills for the plot of land, water and power, and internet connection all cost money. There is no supposition of facts here.


    So, like me, you're basing your argument off an estimate. Essentially an ***pull number and carefully girding your argument with carefully worded generalities and misrepresentations of data.

    I say again, a group of employees from Paragon thought that the property had enough legs, with the caveats of a leaner, more focused studio to pull in real backers actually pony up an offer to NCSoft.

    If you want to discuss this, I'm more than willing to oblige you.
    But please, leave the mudslinging to politicians.

    There wasn't any asspulled number as you so blatantly put it. The estimates were based on actual developer incomes for the Bay area, with both low figures and high figures, which also include, as well as salary, things such as medical costs, training costs, and a myriad of other benefits that employees generally receive. It may be an educated guess, but it is a well educated guess based on facts.

    You also claim that the team had a second project in the works, but base fact, this second project also would not see the light of day for a few years to come at least. Furthermore, again, the reports were showing a steady decline in active subs, and if you completely ignored and pretended that not a single Paragon Store Point was being bought, the figure for the quarter that is oft toted about shows a player base around 55,000. But since more than likely people were buying Paragon Store Points, the actual sub player base would more than likely be lower.

    It's also no secret that Going Rogue didn't meet expectations either in sales. In common parlance, not meeting expectations means barely made profits, broke even, or didn't even make back the cost to develop.

    I know it's only natural to rage against the walls when something you love goes away, and try to rationalize why even when the blatant truth might be staring you in the face. Conspiracy theories abound everywhere, and as I said before, I have no love for NCSoft, but denying the evidence as the evidence actually is instead of the rage induced formula of people misreading numbers and taking them to mean something they totally aren't it isn't healthy.
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  • notburningchick
    notburningchick Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    There wasn't any asspulled number as you so blatantly put it. The estimates were based on actual developer incomes for the Bay area, with both low figures and high figures, which also include, as well as salary, things such as medical costs, training costs, and a myriad of other benefits that employees generally receive. It may be an educated guess, but it is a well educated guess based on facts.
    Sorry to intrude again. Do you have a source? Or can you post your numbers?
    You also claim that the team had a second project in the works, but base fact, this second project also would not see the light of day for a few years to come at least.
    You seem surprised that there was a second project going on at PS, yet it was confirmed repeatedly by former staff members, including Zwill who stated some of the design goals for the project. Clearly, you seem to be operating off even more limited information than some of the other people offering up their conjectures. Edit: another conjecture -- how do you know when the project would see the light of day?
    It's also no secret that Going Rogue didn't meet expectations either in sales. In common parlance, not meeting expectations means barely made profits, broke even, or didn't even make back the cost to develop.
    Again, sources for this? Again, this really does seem to be a personal conjecture (probably reasonable, but still a conjecture).

    Honestly, if some CoH players have a vendetta against NCSoft, you seem to have one against CoH.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    ashensnow wrote: »
    If the game was generating significant levels of profit NCsoft, a for profit corporation, has made a a decision to lower their profits.

    This is the part that I keep having issues with.

    Why would NCSoft close CoX if it was in fact making as much money as some people seem to think it was? This goes against pretty much every rule of econ 101. You don't close down something that is making you money, without a very good reason.
  • man515drake
    man515drake Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Firstly I'm sorry to see CoH and Paragon being shut down and I feel for the gamers and the employees.

    My take on things is simple Paragon Studios must of had some major problems such as poor financial returns. Why well Cryptic was recently in a bad situation with Atari and Atari sold off Cryptic to sort their books out. If Paragon were doing as well as some people say surely NCsoft would sell Paragon and get a cash injection rather than close the company and just get savings of not having Paragon on their books.

    I may be wrong but that is my take on the situation if Paragon was a cash making proposition it makes more sense to sell it that way you make money from the sale and get them off your books. NCsoft just shut it down so they must have seen Paragon studios as in such a state they could make no money from the sale.

    I have no proof of this other than logic, If I had a car that was old but a runner and I needed cash I would sell it but if it didn't run but I was having to still pay for storage I would just take it to the local scrap dealer just to get it out of the way to reduce my overheads.

    Like I have already said this is my supposition and may be erroneous.
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  • gammabreaker
    gammabreaker Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Considering the heinous amounts of money that they've dumped into **** (a failure) and Blade & Soul (probably also a flop), they likely culled the lowest end to conserve. In this case, Paragon/CoH. This doesn't mean that the game was generating no profit, but just that at the least, it was not generating sufficient profit relative to the investment and was not high on the desirability list.

    It's not the first time NCSoft has cut off a finger to save their hand. It won't be the last.
  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You can ignore all you want but that full second team costs money.

    Give me strength...

    I didn't ignore it. I acknowledged it.
    Running the servers and technicians for those servers costs money. Paying the maintenance crew costs money. Paying the bills for the plot of land, water and power, and internet connection all cost money. There is no supposition of facts here.

    No, only vague implication that you, and you alone understand the "real" costs involved and that I've just fluffed it off.
    You also claim that the team had a second project in the works, but base fact, this second project also would not see the light of day for a few years to come at least.

    Yes. Any other blatantly obvious things we already know you'd like to enlighten us about?

    Also, exactly how much money was Blade and Soul's studio bringing in while it was slurping down $55 billion won (almost $50 million) in development cost?
    Furthermore, again, the reports were showing a steady decline in active subs, and if you completely ignored and pretended that not a single Paragon Store Point was being bought, the figure for the quarter that is oft toted about shows a player base around 55,000. But since more than likely people were buying Paragon Store Points, the actual sub player base would more than likely be lower.
    It's also no secret that Going Rogue didn't meet expectations either in sales. In common parlance, not meeting expectations means barely made profits, broke even, or didn't even make back the cost to develop.

    This also tends to happen when a property is allocated exactly $0.00 for advertising. Even for new expansions to the game.

    Again, I'm not saying you're wrong in your facts. I'm simply saying that you're choosing to spin the facts.
    I know it's only natural to rage against the walls when something you love goes away, and try to rationalize why even when the blatant truth might be staring you in the face. Conspiracy theories abound everywhere, and as I said before, I have no love for NCSoft, but denying the evidence as the evidence actually is instead of the rage induced formula of people misreading numbers and taking them to mean something they totally aren't it isn't healthy.

    Again, I'm not saying Paragon Studios wasn't unsupportable in the way it was doing business. Never mind that this is effectively how NCSoft operates in the first place and that their "new" business strategy is to effectively play russian roulette with triple A titles in a churn and burn fashion..

    I'm simply saying the people in charge of the books thought there was still enough value in the property, with a company run in a more cost-effective manner, to pony up a tender offer to NCSoft (which was summarily ignored).

    Again, I'm not angry with NCSoft for closing CoH. CoH probably would have died 5 years ago had they not taken the reins. More than half the things I take for granted in CoH were added on their watch. Barring some idiotic management and financial decisions that actually HURT the property (near-complete absence of advertising and merchandising), they were a moderately good shepherd for the game. And yes, they're a business. They have investors to which they are beholden. So they have to do what seems to make sense for them.

    What I'm angry about is the way they have basically decided to take their ball and go home with this closure. They'd rather just bury the title than sell it off and possibly have someone else be successful with it.

    An apt, if more extreme, comparison would be if Disney were to suddenly decide to mothball the Marvel property.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    They'd rather just bury the title than sell it off and possibly have someone else be successful with it.

    Didn't they say they did in fact try and sell it off, but no one was buying? I mean lets face it, even in the best of cases, a 8 year old MMO is going to be a hard sell.
  • bluedarky
    bluedarky Posts: 1,232 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    cptvanor wrote: »
    Didn't they say they did in fact try and sell it off, but no one was buying? I mean lets face it, even in the best of cases, a 8 year old MMO is going to be a hard sell.

    All's that quote means is that they floated a few offers around, it doesn't mean that NCSoft made a real effort or that it was that the other companies weren't willing to pay what NCSoft was asking for it, it just means that NCSoft offered and at some point either NCSoft or the other party pulled out of the deal.

    Just because NCSoft says $10million and the other party says yes doesn't mean that NCSoft can't pull out of the deal if they decide CoX would be worth more as a tax write off.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    bluedarky wrote: »
    Just because NCSoft says $10million and the other party says yes doesn't mean that NCSoft can't pull out of the deal if they decide CoX would be worth more as a tax write off.

    It could be worth more to them as a tax write off then to sell it. Or they could of made offers in good faith and no one took them up on it.

    Myself I don't find it that hard to believe that they floated some offers and no one took them up on it. They quite honestly have no reason to lie about it however. They've already shut down CoX, and at this point pretty much nothing they say is going to improve peoples opinion of them.

    We have no way of knowing what really happened, but claiming they are just saying they tried to sell it, is coming rather close to the realms of a conspiracy theory.
  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    cptvanor wrote: »
    Didn't they say they did in fact try and sell it off, but no one was buying?

    Just like they had a letter from Richard Garriott...
    I mean lets face it, even in the best of cases, a 8 year old MMO is going to be a hard sell.

    The fact is, a group of ex-Paragon employees had secured funding and were tendering an offer to NCSoft. They were never acknowledged.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Just like they had a letter from Richard Garriott...

    I won't deny that NCSoft has done some pretty sketchy things in the past. But then again we've never actually had all the facts on what actually happened then or any other time.
    The fact is, a group of ex-Paragon employees had secured funding and were tendering an offer to NCSoft. They were never acknowledged.

    According to who? Them or NCSoft? How much was their offer?

    Why would NCSoft turn down a reasonable offer?

    Sorry but more and more this is sounding like a conspiracy theory. Because if I may sum up what's being said the following is true.

    CoX was making a sizable profit for NCSoft.
    Paragon Studios were working on a new MMO that could of made NCSoft even more money.

    NCSoft decided to close down CoX despite the fact that it was making them money. Because according to at least some, they hate the West and our type of MMO's.

    After deciding to shut down CoX and Paragon they had received a number of reasonable offers to buy both, but turned them down.

    There's very little in there that makes any sort of logical sense.

    I could see them wanting to get away from CoX for some reason or another, maybe it wasn't making them enough money, or the costs were too high and they wanted to stream line. But if that were true, and there were groups making reasonable offers on Paragon/CoX, why in the world would they turn the offer down?
  • notburningchick
    notburningchick Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The fact is, a group of ex-Paragon employees had secured funding and were tendering an offer to NCSoft. They were never acknowledged.
    We have no details of the offer.

    The most reasonable explanation is one a couple posts up, "It could be worth more to them as a tax write off then to sell it." If I were to make a WAG, I'd peg the asking price (and the value of the writeoff) at the same amount that NCS paid Cryptic, and that was enough to develop the Cryptic engine + mostly finish CO + (I think) get some work started on STO before the Atari buyout.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The most reasonable explanation is one a couple posts up, "It could be worth more to them as a tax write off then to sell it."

    That is the most reasonable, but even then I have trouble with it. Unless the tax write off was much higher then the value of the package... which seems hard to believe, then they'd be in the same spot by selling it as if they claimed it on their taxes.

    I could be wrong, I'm not a tax attorney or CPA. But I have trouble believing that any government is going to let a company write off ~ 15 million dollars without looking into it.

    Typically if you invest in something, even capital as a corp, and that investment goes bad, you don't typically recuperate the whole amount invested. So unless the offers being made for CoX/Paragon were way lowball ones... The tax writeoff seems at least a little farfetched.

    Again I base this on simple logic and not any hard numbers.
  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    See, there's your problem, Cap - you're trying to apply logic to corporate actions and tax law, neither one of which ever seems to have much to do with logic save by sheer coincidence.
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  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    jonsills wrote: »
    See, there's your problem, Cap - you're trying to apply logic to corporate actions and tax law, neither one of which ever seems to have much to do with logic save by sheer coincidence.

    The Cap thing was mostly because of STO, when I set up my account again I couldn't use my old name. I went by Vanor back then.

    While what you say is true, logic doesn't often fit into things like corporate tax law and the rest...

    I also know that no government is going to going to let someone simply write off that kind of money without looking into it. So if NCSoft is looking to claim a 10-15 million dollar loss, they will need some way to back that up.

    I figure 10-15 mil, because 10 million in revenue is the number I see floated around, and so it seems unlikely that they'd kill CoX for less then they'd be able to sell it for.
  • nepht
    nepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    They've only called it revenue, they've never called it profit, and in fact it can be simply proven by demonstration of actual costs that they weren't making $10 million in profit a year. In fact, their report said that CoH was only 2% of NCSoft's revenue, that's a big difference from profit. Example, you can make $1500 a month, but if you have to pay $1500 in bills, you've made no profit.

    Simple fact the cost of running Paragon Studios alone would have pushed any of that revenue to breaking even, easily, that's not including monthly maintenance costs or bills for the buildings, maintenance, city, water and power, and such like that.

    I know people don't want to believe those facts, but really; it can be easily verified.

    The truth is, that if CoH was making $10 million in profit, NCSoft wouldn't have killed it. I know there is a lot of hearsay about how NCSoft hates the west, and such, but business is business and they wouldn't just arbitrarily cut it like that. And there is evidence, and people who have run the figures people who actually know this stuff, that have demonstrated that CoH was either just barely treading water, breaking even, or quite possibly, was operating in the red.

    And before people say, I left CoH because of NCSoft, so there is no love lost there between me and them. But trying to deny facts isn't helping either.

    Not wanting to get anyone in trouble but I had a Paragon dev on my buddy list he freaked when the game got axed as far as he knew the game was doing grand :/
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  • flyingfinn
    flyingfinn Posts: 8,382 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    That's closer to the fact than the thin air blown here.
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  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nepht wrote: »
    Not wanting to get anyone in trouble but I had a Paragon dev on my buddy list he freaked when the game got axed as far as he knew the game was doing grand :/

    The sucky part about being an employee, you are never privy to all the facts.
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  • agentnx5
    agentnx5 Posts: 1,999 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The sucky part about being an employee, you are never privy to all the facts.

    Unfortunately true (even if you're the one in charge), but in this case NCSoft was hardly being transparent with the facts...

    I mean look at websites like Wikipedia which is funded by donations. If there's a will, there's probably a way. In in this case, it's rather clear NCSoft made damned certain there was no way possible.

    What NCSoft is doing to CoH is willful destruction. They are aware of the consequences of their actions, they are essentially refusing to provide alternatives or let the community have power in alternate decisions, and they are generally being unreasonably apathetic about it. Kind of like if you adopted a child and then kept them locked up in a room and starved them. You made certain nobody knew of this, keeping the abuse hidden; but you refuse to let them see the child because it belong to you as you slowly murder the child through starvation and are going to "mercifully euthanize them" come December. You can't hide that you're going to kill it, so only now does the word come out.

    The difference is that NCSoft doesn't treat their games, customers, or employees with respect; they are cold-hearted numbers only. This is my observation, you can feel free to disagree with me if you want.

    Maybe I'm just an old-time gamer by current standards, but I seem to remember NCSoft doing this in the past. Part of why I never got into CoH when I first heard about it. They're not even the first to do this. Interplay for example, way back in the day.

    Am I making sense?



    PS: Wasn't Everquest given to some sort of private contractor and that's where it's been kept up & running?
  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Also, exactly how much money was Blade and Soul's studio bringing in while it was slurping down $55 billion won (almost $50 million) in development cost?

    What would the relevance of Blade and Soul's studio revenue be ? One product's projected revenues or expected return on investment may have very little to do with another's.


    This also tends to happen when a property is allocated exactly $0.00 for advertising.


    Do you have a link to NCsoft's advertising budgets for COH ?


    I'm simply saying the people in charge of the books thought there was still enough value in the property, with a company run in a more cost-effective manner, to pony up a tender offer to NCSoft (which was summarily ignored).


    What was the offer ? And, do you have a link to anything demonstrating that the offer was ignored rather than rejected ?


    Again, I'm not angry with NCSoft for closing CoH. CoH probably would have died 5 years ago had they not taken the reins. More than half the things I take for granted in CoH were added on their watch. Barring some idiotic management and financial decisions that actually HURT the property (near-complete absence of advertising and merchandising), they were a moderately good shepherd for the game. And yes, they're a business. They have investors to which they are beholden. So they have to do what seems to make sense for them.

    What I'm angry about is the way they have basically decided to take their ball and go home with this closure. They'd rather just bury the title than sell it off and possibly have someone else be successful with it.

    An apt, if more extreme, comparison would be if Disney were to suddenly decide to mothball the Marvel property.

    I am not sure that this comparison works. Fans of Marvel (as a group) are supporting it (well at least the movie studio portion) financially to a degree that makes it a worthwhile ongoing operation for the parent company. The exact opposite is true of Paragon Studios.

    Ultimately NCsoft is choosing to do as they wish with something they own. I understand being unhappy about it, but NCsoft is doing no wrong in choosing how to dispose of their own property.

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  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    On the note for advertising, considering how many TV shows and how much of a hooha CoH players have made about CoH appearing in TV shows, as well as various websites, to say that NCSoft gave little budget to advertising seems to be a massive faux pas.
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  • errandrunner
    errandrunner Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    On the note for advertising, considering how many TV shows and how much of a hooha CoH players have made about CoH appearing in TV shows, as well as various websites, to say that NCSoft gave little budget to advertising seems to be a massive faux pas.

    Besides Big Bang Theory's captain sweatpants (and a quick reference about being the heroes), where else has COH been mentioned?
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Several shows where City of Heroes posters and game boxes have appeared in the background. I don't know which ones, I don't watch TV. I just know people made a big deal about it.
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  • hyperstrikecoh
    hyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Besides Big Bang Theory's captain sweatpants (and a quick reference about being the heroes), where else has COH been mentioned?

    It was on Chuck. You'd usually see a display whenever a scene involved a (non-destroyed) Buy More.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Besides Big Bang Theory's captain sweatpants

    They also have a Lord Recluse standup for City of Villains in the comic shop on Big Bang.
  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    agentnx5 wrote: »
    Am I making sense?

    Not to me, not really.

    Because while it may very well seem like they're doing that. I have yet to see any evidence that actually supports these claims that NCSoft has turned down or ignored reasonable offers. In fact the only thing we can truly say we know, is that some people have made offers, and NCSoft turned them down.

    We don't however know how reasonable these offers really were.

    It also seems illogical for NCSoft to refuse a reasonable offer. Why would a company that is only interested in the numbers and not the players turn down a reasonable offer to get CoX off their plate? Most of the reasons I hear quite frankly board or even run full speed into the realms of Conspiracy Theory.

    Maybe NCSoft is really a cold and evil company who don't care a thing about it's customers... But honestly, companies like that seldom ever last long.
    PS: Wasn't Everquest given to some sort of private contractor and that's where it's been kept up & running?

    Everquest is still hosted by Sony, so they might of hired some sort of contractor to do updates and maint, but it's still a Sony Network game.
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    cptvanor wrote: »
    Maybe NCSoft is really a cold and evil company who don't care a thing about it's customers... But honestly, companies like that seldom ever last long.

    Honestly, most big companies are like that. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is the bottom line, what numbers they are pulling and such. It's not a process that's limited to only a few companies. Now on a personal level, customers might get to know a single employee or a few employees, but that person still has to answer to the whims of the company as a whole.
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  • cptvanor
    cptvanor Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Honestly, most big companies are like that. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is the bottom line, what numbers they are pulling and such.

    Yeah you're right... I guess that is true, most companies Exec's don't care about the individual customer.

    But even with that being true, it still doesn't change the fact that ignoring reasonable offers to buy CoX/Paragon Studios seems like it could be a bad business decision. Maybe it's not, maybe they have their books setup in some way so killing those things is the better choice for them.

    But if that's true, then that's just how it is. That doesn't mean they're doing it out of some sort of malice, which is what some people seem to be claiming.
  • lovehammer1
    lovehammer1 Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    If it was a response to someone else, quote and respond to someone else. Drop your fake

    outrage and petty comments. You can get your cheap internet greifing points at someone

    else's expense.
    I didn't start this. You took it the way you did!
    When you assume and think you know, this is what you get.
    Nothing fake about that. So, please move on.
  • biffsmackwell
    biffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    Besides Big Bang Theory's captain sweatpants (and a quick reference about being the heroes), where else has COH been mentioned?

    Pretty much any of the episodes where they go to the comic book store, there would be posters all over the place for the game. I think in Howard's bedroom too but I'm not sure.

    I know I saw it enough for it to stick out.
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  • errandrunner
    errandrunner Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Pretty much any of the episodes where they go to the comic book store, there would be posters all over the place for the game. I think in Howard's bedroom too but I'm not sure.

    I know I saw it enough for it to stick out.

    This is kind of my point, however. It was mentioned that since we've seen COH stuff in shows, NC SOFT must be advertising it. However, the way it seems, it only appears in shows that people who are working on it would actually know about it (of course a show about nerds that hang out in a comic book show would know about it (of course, for all we know, the producers could have modeled the comic book store after a real one and they did have COH stuff at the time (six years ago))).
  • championshewolf
    championshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is kind of my point, however. It was mentioned that since we've seen COH stuff in shows, NC SOFT must be advertising it. However, the way it seems, it only appears in shows that people who are working on it would actually know about it (of course a show about nerds that hang out in a comic book show would know about it (of course, for all we know, the producers could have modeled the comic book store after a real one and they did have COH stuff at the time (six years ago))).

    CoH and Going Rogue appeared in ads on various websites as well. It wasn't limited to just TV shows. And placing the ads on website banners and in TV shows would cost money. I won't pretend how much, but it would cost something.
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