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Defiance vs Invul ... Numbers vs "Feel"
mlmii
Posts: 111 Arc User
I've been playing on the PTS again and with Super Stats of End/Con/Rec, no gear, and running in Tank Mode; by the numbers Defiance looks like it "should" be more powerful while training against ( Hard Team Size 5 ) holograms but for some reason Invul "feels" more powerful.
Is this something that will hold true throughout the PvE arena considering that I'm not planning on soley stacking Con Gear or am I just running into a fluke somehow? -- I typically run the missions on Elite solo and my L17 toon using Invul hasn't had too much problem, but haven't been willing to put Defiance through that test yet....
Or am I simply missing something?
Is this something that will hold true throughout the PvE arena considering that I'm not planning on soley stacking Con Gear or am I just running into a fluke somehow? -- I typically run the missions on Elite solo and my L17 toon using Invul hasn't had too much problem, but haven't been willing to put Defiance through that test yet....
Or am I simply missing something?
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Taking if you loaded down on Constitution, Defiance would have roughly have 18% resistance per stack, which means 108% resistance from that. Of course if you think that's solid damage reduction, then that's where you are making your primary mistake at. 100% resistance is about 50% damage reduction.
Now, the problem here is also of priority. There is an actual order to how all the damage reduction works. Dodge is taken first of them all, then any shield, then your resistance then finally any straight damage reduction.
So if you say have 40% dodge with 50% avoidance that is checked first, if you happened to have a force shield that's taken next, then your resistance, say that's another 50% damage reduction with how much resistance you might have, then whatever left after all that, what invuln's damage reduction is left will take out to a minimum of 1.
So putting up the numbers, say a 5000 point damage hit came at you;
If you dodged with the above numbers, that means that 5000 is cut down to 2500.
Say you got buffed with a 400 point shield that means the damage is down to 2100.
Then your resistance is taken into account, so that means the damage is down to 1550.
So once that is taken into account then the damage reduction from invuln comes up and say you have 180 points worth of that, that means the damage is reduced to 1370.
If you were just using straight 108% resistance with maybe an additional 30% form gear if you haven't really pushed for the defense, then you probably would be pushing maybe, 60% damage reduction from resistance so the final damage you take from that hit would be 2000.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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There you get a lot of low powered enemies, the perfect fodder for Invulnerable.
You wont get the large monster hits that high level cosmics can drop on you. The stuff Defiance is better at soaking up
So in effect, your Power house test will give you slanted results. Honestly, its for this very reason there have been a ton of requests for a spawnable cosmic level boss in the test rooms. Because a dozen hits at 1000 points of damage will never be able to show you how well you can take a single 12000 point hit.
OMG so damn signed... i would love to be able to test out builds against the gallery of cosmics.
Because "percentage" buffs work just like alcohol proof. 100 proof is only 50% alcohol...
In fact, I suggest they just go that route...
"Dude! That drop had 100 proof Damage Reduction! Hook it up with my 90 proof DR mode and I'm Everclear!"
"Gratz man! I'm jealous. I'm still stuck on Bacardi..."
:biggrin:
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
HAH!
Awesome.
For the most part it seems to be the same exaggerated numbers they used in City of Heroes, so no idea.
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Nothing beats invul in the 5 man test in the PH - most of the attacks are low damage and almost entirely mitigated by the flat damage mitigation in invul. While defiant has the potential to reduce an attack's damage more than invul, low damage attacks do more damage to defiant as they aren't getting reduced nearly as low since they're only getting resisted and not being absorbed by flat mitigation.
Invul/LR/Defiance all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and can build around each passive to compensate. For general pve, it's hard to beat invul though, you not only get a resistance factor, but the flat mitigation, which most attacks will get significantly reduced by.
How about some hints how to do that?
Got LR? Stack def. Got Invuln/Defiance? Stack dodge/avoidance. Got Regen? Stack everything.
I'm not sure if that number is still the same, especially once you add in spec trees and everything else, but it seemed to be the break even point back in the day.
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Bosses everywhere (but only on charge attacks) and on Cosmics and fights like Mega-D.
I'd say that about 90% of your gameplay experience will be better served with Invul. You'll fight FAR more mooks than you will bosses.
Basically, just learn to block against charge attacks (you'll see a notification above their head as well as an icon showing up on your UI) and you'll be fine with Invul. Even more so once you stack some Dodge into your build come 40 (oh so simple to do).
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Be smart about positioning yourself, and block when needed.
For actual damage resistance there are a few option that add a bit, but nothing really major by itself that I can think off. (laser knight, bonus defiance stack, circle of primal dominion, defense stat, grit from warden mastery spec)
Taking defiance and invuln is not a terrible option, since defiance requires no ranks, but I would never pick both myself.
Championshewolf... Thanks for that info. In your points break down I get the various level: Dodge/Avoidance, Shields, Resistance, Damage Reduction.
I have questions:
1) Where does our Blocking Power figure in the above steps?
2) Where does our Defense Stat figure in the above?
3) Besides Invulnerability are there other forms of straight Damage Reduction?
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
Running invul with dodge/avoid gear (gamblers in agility) will cover most of your needs.
Have solid con/hp
Masterful dodge tends to cover you when you need 100% dodge on top of a block (ie yellow bubble of doom).
I wouldn't bother taking dual def passives, it basically defeats the purpose - and the difference isn't worthwhile when you can do the majority of content in either.
People have tried to figure the order out for a long time...This is a little old but it is mostly...right as far as what we can learn from letting mobs beat us up... but it isn't 'updated'
Unstoppable and IDF have straight damage reduction...and Immunity to all Damage 'should' fall into this category..
I only really tested a few parts of it while I was doing terminator smashing in resistance so the below may or may not be right...I dunno...don't really (care.) have time to really test it all out..
I can Immune - Dodge - Block and I know for a fact that statues get higher priority than players when it comes to damage received....Damn terminators disobeying the resistance check...
ie. dmg resist from blocks (including things like laser knight or phalanx defense), from gear, from ivul/defiance/circles etc.
Sum of total percentage.
So yeah its not a straight list if only because non PFF / FS bubbles are frankly in a terrible spot.
PFF isn't a 100% Absorb damage 'shield'(At least from my tests when I go up against Terminators...which was the only time I ever used pff after On-Alert so any damage resist were negated due to the terminator)
Block is considered to have the same formula as Defense but I'm not sold that it should be calculated along with the defense trio...and LK is...a tad iffy and sometimes protects me for more than it has been known to..
But take the list and use it to your heart's content. Change it around if you want I really don't care....
Just remember, Gravity is the true enemy to fear...it bypasses everything but GravityJumpingUp and Flight Friction/Traction
You will always be bound by physical laws. You don't do math. Math does you. >^..^<
Same thing applies to theory-building versus gameplay.
Not sure what you mean by terminators but wasn't critiquing any one person on the PFF thing, I just hear it alot and it was mentioned several times in thread.
And yes fall damage > all
Mega Destroid Terminators found in resistance. Get within 130 feet or so and you'll understand.
On that note, killed one on elite at level 40 (yes it was a full level 40) after over 30 minutes. No reward of any kind other than knowing you've solo'd a level 40 elite destroid terminator.
Yeah, I'm not sure what he was responding to here. You said that PFF is stacked under resists, which is true, but then he responded that PFF doesn't absorb all of the damage that it gets hit with, which is also true but completely unrelated to whether PFF sits under resists. Which it does and has since the Form changes went live.
PS. @ayonachan I don't think Laser Knight is in it's own layer, but I'd have to test it to be sure. Also, are you sure that flat resist bonuses are on the same layer as damage absorb?
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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LK's bonuses does count towards and adds with things like defiance and all other resistance bonuses but LK does not benefit a tank in >almost< every way possible(Damage cut >less aggro< Lesser damage resistance due to the sheer fact that you're pushing DR on it)
Hell to tell you the truth sigils or even ice barrier would offer much much more mitigation than LK ever would and it doesn't even have a damage cut....except for maybe energy management...
AS a little thing to note LK offers around 20% when I have very little resistance and 9% when I have alot
Never tested flat damage mitigation nor do I really care(The amount of time required to truly 'test' flat damage mitigation is something I do not want to waste)...and Immunity to all Damage IS flat damage mitigation except the damage you take becomes 0 instead of 1. What I mean by this is that in the combat log it will say:
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 0 (107298) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.
And taking 0 damage does not interrupt you(except if you get knocked/held..yes you can still be knocked/held when your immune and yes gravity still hurts you when your immune)