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Franklin Stone Dogfight
gamehobo
Posts: 1,970 Arc User
I hate it.
I hate the jets. I hate that they have horrible, unchangable keybinds. NO way to play them using an Xbox Controller. I hate that they are weaker than my character just walking around. I hate that because my character can't fly I am forced to use these ugly (YES they hella UGLY), useless, boring, dumb vehicles.
The mechanics of the fight were fun enough.. But I have to warn you DO NOT make your new endgame content (Star Guard etc) use vehicles or else I will not play them. Vehicles are an option.. but I didn't go through creating my character for hella levels just to have you put me in a premade piece of crap.
Give me a teleporter on the rooftops where non-flight characters can get close to the Engineer and bad guys and I'll call it even.
I hate the jets. I hate that they have horrible, unchangable keybinds. NO way to play them using an Xbox Controller. I hate that they are weaker than my character just walking around. I hate that because my character can't fly I am forced to use these ugly (YES they hella UGLY), useless, boring, dumb vehicles.
The mechanics of the fight were fun enough.. But I have to warn you DO NOT make your new endgame content (Star Guard etc) use vehicles or else I will not play them. Vehicles are an option.. but I didn't go through creating my character for hella levels just to have you put me in a premade piece of crap.
Give me a teleporter on the rooftops where non-flight characters can get close to the Engineer and bad guys and I'll call it even.
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They just forgot setting up an invisible wall in that level, since it is meant to be played while mounted. (WoW - oculus would be the closest example) Keep in mind this is like testing a beta version, i bet the bugs are gonna get fixed asap. Besides, the mounts are awesome. If you got to play swtor's "flight" system.. the system in co is about ten times better.
Actually, theres an interactable door up the stairs you can take to get to the roof on foot. It's intended that you be able to fight without a vehicle.
Also, agreed with the OP completely. These things are clunky as hell, and even with custom X-Padder binds are a pain in the **** to use with a controller. In general, they're inferior for the most part over just engaging flight and brawling with the ship yourself, especially with those annoying **** lasers making the ability to heal yourself almost necessary.
All in all, this is a very disappointing direction for content to go in, seeing as we're content starved to begin with and the devs have been on the roll with making things only a portion of the community (or in the case of Gravitar, a minority) can enjoy.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
It's a little late to get any changes to Stone's mission, of course - but I think I would have preferred it if the fight took place over, well, almost any other section of the city. Adding in learning these new systems with having to learn them while engaging in aerial combat between the skyscrapers just seems a bit much to me...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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RIP Caine
Then, when you beat him, he crashes in the center, as someone's duel challenge rocket.
So no I don't hate them, but they concern me. Improving controller defaults would certainly help for those that use them (I don't, I used a keyboard & mouse).
NO. Do not force people to have to use them to be effective. You're missing the point of the theme of Champions Online here.
I understand what you're getting at, that it's not doing it's intended introductory purpose, but I don't like where you're going with that logic, at all.
Having a progressive introduction would help, but I prefer this aerial combat in the megalopolis areas honestly. It's more complex geometry, and more interesting. People will learn them with time.
PS: This topic has quite a mean undertone to it Jaybezz/gamehobo. Somebody put a lot of time into designing this content you know....
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I've not been known to be "nice" when it comes to bad game design. I wont start now.
I gave my opinion.. I expect others will have other opinions. Just so happens that mine was the original post. I feel bad for the developers who had to work on this. The end fight itself is engaging, and fun. The vehicles SUCK.
- -
This is the final legacy of the exiting Rob Overmeyer. His legacy on Champions Online will have been:
1) Horrible Communication
2) Inability to provide content
3) Inability to balance gameplay mechanics
4) Horrible implementation of all ideas
Now its Brad Stokan's turn. We will see what he has in store for CO and hopefully he has taken time to think out the real future of Champions Online and what direction he wants to move forward with. This is officially the last thing I can say Rob touched.. and the result is as I expected.
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed. When I was told there would be vehicles, I thought, "Oh cool, new travel powers like bikes and cars," and it's limited to a jet thing, and you can only get it on a very odd chance, and the one you get will probably not be the one you want anyway. I had such high expectations after being told what to look forward to, and I get a bolas frenzy instead. What a waste of time.
Patience young grasshopper. These jets are only a preview of the complete customizable vehicle system coming out later this year. I, like most, am hoping the real system will be awesome.
Also, a chance to win a jet from the gamble bags is very small, it can be very frustrating. If you have to have one, you are going to have to pony up the zen in the C-Store. That way you can get the one you want and avoid the let down of drifter salvage.
Too busy saving up for a freeform slot. That's another thing: Gravitar. I've vowed never to fight her again due to how ridiculously difficult it is. I'm "The Invincible," but she can one-shot me with her disgusting, who-knows-where-it's-been fingers.
I definitely don't want this to be the only avenue pursued. I like the concept, but this should be just an aspect of what's to come, not the entire future.
There is so much in that Frankline Stone fight that I've been waiting for in this game.
Its really great.
Did you know that its possible to cause the guys upstairs to break in during the cut scene?
So awesome.
If you have flight and skip the jets, you can fight like a real hero for a change.
Against terrible odds, helping where you can, blasting all kinds of targets.
Those security dudes are great.
This is high quality gaming right here.
Wasn't this Brad Stokan's first turn at the helm? Where is it said jets was Rob Overmeyer's idea? I don't recall seeing that published anywhere...
The Mods & Cores thing is good (no really it is good system, you can customize much better now), but why get rid of the existing crafting when what it really need was editing? And what's with the stupid chance for failure on fusion being 40% for the Mods you actually care about fusing even WITH 400 crafting skill?!
Alerts are fun & quick, but the XP rewards from them are making it relatively pointless to level up content. More importantly you can't get interesting lore and storytelling from Alerts. So Alerts are more like one-night-stands or hookers than a meaningful relationship where you actually get to care for the character. Truthfully, I wouldn't miss alerts though if they just disappeared one day. That alone should indicate how uninspiring they are. There's nothing to miss. You can fight those bosses in better battles if you play the actual missions they come from, and you'll remember it better because it has meaning.
Alerts as they stand, for most, are not much more interesting for plot than the dummies and combat simulator holograms in the powerhouse, Smash Alerts (and radiation rumble) in particular. The environments used for most of the Alerts are also straight-up copy & pastes The primary reason people are doing them non-stop (myself included) is for the Questionite and easy the experience points (XP).
The "G.R.A.B." special alert is annoying with so many enemies using shotguns to knock. The "Red Snake, Green Dragon" special alert has the most HORRIFIC script and voice-acting for any Martial Arts theme I've ever seen in a game! The "Hi-Pan: Fury of the Dragon" alert was actually one of the best designed ones, and the Nighthawk stuff is getting even better. So you can definitely see the improvement. But special alerts aside, most of the alerts are still glorified punching bag sessions, with no more plot or explanation than: the enemy is there, go get 'em!
I do like the more serious and gritty look of Champions as of late, the Nighthawk thing is definitely a step in the right direction if you ask me. The "campy" style of humor failed to be funny to me, even though I do enjoy the witty double-meanings and allusion references with mission names and perk titles. I think Foxbat is a great comic relief, but constant nonsensical is boring. If everything is as ridiculous as Foxbat, it fails to be special/unique in the game.
You may not like the new vehicles but I'd imagine some people do. And I do like the change in atmosphere.
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I could solo franklin stone you know, i am a pretty good pilot. Did the mission yesterday with a lvl 20 and 14 none of us died/got hit by lasers + we still had 4 minutes and around 30 seconds left on the mission timer.. Note, the lvl 14 was afk all the time. Kill the lasers you got massive aoes, move above or below franklin stone's jet. break the line of sight if your hp drops, recharge energy while hiding if the insta rec. skill is in cd. Rinse and repeat until the boss is down.
1.) I dont choose the interceptor.
2.) They give you a chance to try nighthawk powers, in case you were thinking about retconning to one of them? I agree that they are lame, but at least you can see what they are like.
3.) The z store has a 100% chance to grant a jet if your interested.
Don't even start, this game is way too easy. Gravitar was created for HIGH LEVEL ELITE players, because they wanted something that would challenge them - and Gravitar is still way too easy. "Ridiculously difficult" for *you* but not for those of us who understand team dynamics. Just because you're named the invincible, does not mean you cant be killed, and you are foolish if you think otherwise.
I'm not a fan of "Become Devices" because I like to pick/understand my powers as I build my toon. I didn't know what those powers did and in mid-combat didn't have time/understanding to figure them out.
I know this is just the vehicles prototype, but so far I'm underwhelmed.
I'll probably try again, try all three vehicle types. Maybe I'll even "figure them out" -- But even if I do, I don't want to be forced to use vehicles. I really hope Cryptic remembers that when making future content. Batman used his 'Jet and 'Mobile, but Superman never needed a vehicle, and most my toons are of the latter variety.
Also, the cutscenes/movies were badly animated... Very choppy and skippy. Poorly done and disctracting. Blech... On the plus side, the mobs we had to kill scattered throughout the city to get the circumstantial evidence gave XP. Which was nice while "Power Leveling" for the Anniversary Event. Some of the Previous Event Foes (like from Hi Pan "Element" Event) didn't give XP when killing them...
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
My results:
I have no idea what was going on.
There's three jets.. okay. What do we actually need to have? Unclear.
The jets have powers. What do they do? What is appropriate for this encounter? Unclear, and no opportunity to acclimate, since it's under timed battle conditions with teammates relying on you.
What's happening in the fight? I have no idea. I died. A lot. After the tenth or so time, I just logged out since I couldn't figure out a way of actually leaving the instance (the 'leave group' button did nothing).
That was extremely frustrating. I enjoyed the bits of the Nighthawk stuff up until then, but Oh And Suddenly You're In A Mandatory Group Instance With Strangers thing is a serious turnoff, especially since I have to learn an entirely new game in the middle of combat.
This is the opposite of fun.
Pretty much all of this. No tutorial or explanation on how the ships work or what powers they have. The icons didn't really give me any indication at first glance. Controls were...odd is putting it mildly.
I could not figure out why I couldn't change altitude when I had something selected. Died way too many times.
Tried it twice to see if I could get the hang of it, but if I didn't get one shot by the drones I was offed by the main helicopter.
Not fun. Still have the mission, but I'm not about to finish it. Scrapping it and telling my buddies to avoid.
Adding a brand new mechanic and not giving some kind of tutorial for players to get used to the new mechanic is just silly.
Vanish in the air you'll never find me
Well,there isn't a tutorial for it unfortunately,but I can tell you that medivac is the healer,fast attack is the DPS,and heavy fighter is the tank,I think a lot of people confuse heavy fighter and fast attack for some reason,but anyways,when the gunship appears,strafe to avoid the deadly laser array,and if your a DPSer,I've found that anti aircraft missile's buff works well in conjunction with power 4(I forgot the name),and if your a tank,use the warning shot and the shield power to make the aircraft attack you and the shield to take it,for medivac,heal and use power 4 to debuff,and remember,to stop the battleship healing,go to the marked yellow rooftop and take out the ACI engineers,they heal him when he gets there.
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I understand team dynamics, and I know exactly where I stand when it comes to fighting her. The problem is a barrage of damage that I can't prevent. I simply don't have the gear for it. I didn't imply that I literally was invincible either, so your claim about my being "foolish" or otherwise is without merit.
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
As I said, I only claimed you were foolish if you thought you couldnt be killed
I ran it about ten times in a row with a friend.
Then one more with the person in our team when buddy boy left.
Then ran three of my toons through the evidence gathering, scored somewhere
around twelve level forty blues in the process.
Then ran the dogfight again three more times before bed.
I think this content is right on track and haters are just going to hate.
You seem to be under the impression I'm asking for an explanation. Fortunately I'm not, since that's a pretty opaque explanation.
My post is not intended to convey a desire for some player to save me from my ignorance, but to relate a set of difficulties I (and apparently others) encounter with this rather steep learning cliff in an otherwise accessible game.
It's nice that you're happy with it, but some of us had very unpleasant experiences. That isn't a "haters gonna hate" issue, it's a "this is presented very poorly to players who are unfamiliar with the combination of mechanics in play".
Oh, and this quest is handed to newbies fresh out of the tutorial, and it appears they can get into the group instance as soon as level 10 (I personally went in at 11), so this is a fantastic improvement to the new player experience. </sarcasm>
As a lifer, I think that's pretty sad. Twice and you already gave up. Grav I could understand giving up on considering how quickly I've seen her kill someone from the start, or watch people trying to rez only to shot back down instantly. The deadliest mechanic in the stone fight are the drones, but unlike in grav, there is no lockout, and franklin himself isn't going to cascade you to death in an instant.
Most of the experience is actually just figuring out how to use the jet, because once you do it's pretty cake. And telling folks to avoid it after hardly giving it a real try.... that's bad enough, bad as a lifer.... wow.
Altitude is affected by jump, which should be a natural instinct to at least try considering you're a lifer.
I hardly die normally, but in learning how to fight Stone my first few alts lost most of their stars. After I finally took the time to read descriptions and learn each of the jet functions instead of mashing pointlessly, I just had to realize I needed to keep moving and the drones wouldn't eat me alive. Franklin himself is pretty weak, and as you would expect something that big is slow - superiority fighters are meant to be nimble, so a little moving around goes a long way towards mitigating damage.
In reality - the timer just creates an illusion of difficulty. If one takes the time to read power descriptions and notice that when he moves there's an engineer that heals him, most of the fight is really just eliminating the engineer. One you take the time to learn how to complete the fight its routine, but if you venture in and mindlessly rush through it the game punishes you accordingly.
Seckie, it has nothing to do with whether the player is a lifer or not LOL.
To voidhuntress:
You just boarded a jet belonging to Nighthawk. You have never been onboard, so sometimes not everything needs to be spelt out. Effects of each power is displayed on rollover. What level are you when you take on the mission? I have actually not seen anyone dying 10 times in this mission TBH. You also have the option to fight without the plane if you character can fly.
Thematically, that's fine. This is, however, a presentation issue and one which calls Nighthawk's entire grasp of tactics and propriety into question.
What this chain of events needs is a reason to encounter and use the vehicles /before/ throwing the players into them for the Stone fight.
There's no real pacing here. You do a bunch of fairly normal content, and then get an event that's a bunch of totally new things in a high intensity situation. That's not good design, whether you can justify it as an artifact of character experience or not: We only have that lack of experience because the narrative failed to afford the opportunity to learn before asking us to be competent with something that changes fundamental aspects of gameplay: You no longer have a block, you have an afterburner. You no longer have access to your powers or equipment, unless you abandon the given structure of the event, which not everyone can do and still participate, and the event by nature does not encourage you towards the necessary introspection especially if you are new but your teammates are in a hurry.
You may accept or even enjoy trial-by-fire of that nature, but that doesn't make it good design, especially where design expects to be accessible to new and inexperienced players...which this does.
What DID irritate me about this mission was that it was an alert-style team-up mission; combined with aforementioned situation. I'm already not fond of teaming, so alerts annoy me anyway, but this was a whole new ballgame of aggravating that it wouldn't have been had the mission been solo.
See here's the deal:
You put me in this situation alone, and I don't feel bad if I screw up and die a bunch. It's no big deal. If I do that with a team though? I'm hurting the team, including people who HAVE figured the fight out. And of course you can imagine my frustration after figuring it out, and of course grouping with other people who themselves hadn't; and there really isn't time except at the very very start (where no one waits), to actually explain anything.
So you basically end up with two groups of people - newbies just doing the mission for the first time and failing (understandably); and people who've done the mission a few times, know what to do, but are being drug down by aforementioned newbies. Neither is at fault, both are having a miserable time of it.
So that's my big issue with this mission - I liked most of the rest, but the fact that it had to be a group mission made it substantially less enjoyable for me than it otherwise would have been.
---
On the upside, once you figure it out, the Interceptor is crazy awesome, especially for getting around large areas quickly. With boost on you can cross the entirety of Millennium City in about 30 seconds. So if you manage to win the mission enough times to get a jet, it can be well worth it <. .> So that's a positive.
Also: I kinda want Franklin Stone's gunship. That's probably wayyyyy too large for a player vehicle, but I liked the look of it.
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That's funny. That's usually the opposite of how first exposure to new mechanics works in games.
This may be true, but the implications of each power, and the context in which they are expected to be used, are not indicated on rollover.
11, as I mention above. If this is too short for the ride, why was I let on?
Maybe you just weren't able to notice because of everything else going on. The mission doesn't encourage a high degree of awareness. I know folks without information processing concerns who would be overwhelmed by what was going on. For me, it was so much I was literally unable to perceive the fight. I'd go up to it. I'd start to try to take in the context. I'd watch my health go from full to zero in 1 to 5 seconds. It isn't just that I died 10 times, but that I died inexplicably 10 times.
So, the answer is to respec my travel power? Nice of the game to tell me: Here's a new thing. It's kind of crazy, so it might not be your bag, so you should totally ignore what we're putting in front of you and plan C the thing.
I wonder. If I die that fast while in the "tanky" jet, how quickly is my Grimoire going to splat?
The tank jet is actually very squishy if it wasn't for that one defensive power it has. Without that power, a geared Grimiore would actually be tougher due to higher dodge and defense.
I was under the impression the character's gear affected the jet stats. Is this incorrect?
Doesn't seem to be the case.
Actually it does. it be one thing if a regular silver or recently subbed gold said it. But anyone willing to invest in a lifetime membership should already be versed in dealing with content like this, as in content that could use improvement.
I was just really turned off by a mere two attempts before he/she was recommending people steer clear.
I do think it was a lousy transition - No explanation or tutorial, let's just shove you in a jet and figure it out on the fly while the timer pressure will cause most folks to not take the minute or so to familiarize him/herself with the power tray and die repeatedly.
I'm over 66 runs now, and I can carry as needed like I was carried my first few runs. The fight just ends up being really simple once you learn the dynamics, yet until you do, it can seem nearly impossible. Hovering near drones will kill so many, so quickly, and so often, and not realizing that there's a healing engineer at each platform will extend his life beyond your 10 minute timer.
I know for the first 3-4 runs I did, I was almost completely lost, and constantly behind. If not behind, I was soon to be when the drones killed me. I was just pressing powers without knowing what was what and hoping it worked out, feeling rushed by the timer.
I seem to remember reading that the Jets do scale with your level but not with the stats themselves or the gear. I may be wrong on it, though.
For myself and others like me, this kind of experience is extremely distressing. I would have been much happier with my enjoyment of Champions if someone had warned me away from this event.
It's genuinely that unpleasant for both me and for some others. That it might eventually make sense, or eventually become trivial is immaterial: That won't erase this incredibly awful experience. I've had it. It can't be undone.
I wish someone had spared me.
Owning a LTS does not mean that one has been playing for months or even years. Even if one has been playing months or years no one has been playing this very new and different mechanic for that length of time.
If it is not fun, is the antithesis of fun, after 2 runs...it is foolish to expect otherwise. If you hate a certain food, do you order it repeatedly, dozens of meals in a row ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Alternate analogy: If you discover you have an allergy to a certain food, do you keep trying to eat it to see if you can manage to stomach it eventually?
I am allergic to high intensity time-constrained forced-teaming events wherein I must learn new mechanics without any kind of in-game guidance on how the event actually functions, or the ability to extrapolate on current capabilities based on my experience with my character to date (since there's no correlation at all).
They make me break out in a terrible rash. It's like alligator skin. Very tragic. Terribly itchy.
Excluding experience for the LTS...
The game hasn't been "fun" for me for quite some time, it's just habitual grinding, so expecting otherwise? Sure why not.
But recall he/she was telling folks to steer clear from just two bad experiences. This is CO now, I can have "bad experiences" in general play. Yep, that's bugged, oh that's bugged. Hey that's still broken....
The reason I found it ironic coming from a lifer is that if that was enough to turn him/her off it, what about the rest of the game? CO is full of "unpleasant experiences" as the bug reports from players or the complaints in the forum attest. Finding enjoyment out of CO tends to require someone to be able to deal with the bad in order to enjoy the good.
But also,
If someone who has been willing to invest in a lifetime account is disliking something so quickly, what about folks who aren't nearly invested, ala newcomers and CoX players etc. I've been told that folks get this quest right out of the PH... when new players first experiences are similar to said lifers, why continue playing?
I'm not saying that the mission is a fun experience, especially for first timers. It's pretty regularly that the drones kill someone right off the bat when Stone appears after you clear the rooftop. I just found it disconcerting for a lifer to not even bother asking for help or advice or even just input before passing judgement, especially after learning fresh new players were being given this assignment.
A lifer's already invested in the game, so another "unpleasant" experience isn't terribly new - A new player is deciding on whether or not to continue playing. There already enough issues with customer retention here.
Actually, I said I was telling my buddies to steer clear. I know my buddies in RL so I know how they will react to this mission. Just stating for clarity.
I dislike this mission as it has no tutorial and introduces new mechanics. I gave up after 2 attempts as it wasn't fun. I don't expect it to become fun if I keep doing it. Insanity, that is.
I get where you are going with this, and it's legit. However, the commentary at you, from my perspective, has been what appeared to some as an attack on me directly. Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't.
I'm not going to get worked up about it at this stage. The event is about over and after a while I'm sure people will get used to the controls after purchasing a vehicle. Myself? Not interested. Voiced my opinion on it. Didn't take your comments personal.
Cheers mate.
Vanish in the air you'll never find me
Definitely not directed specifically towards you - I do name folks when I direct something towards them distinctly.
If you knew the folks and familiar with their playstyle, then you'd be a far better judge than I on their enjoyment.
I mean, really I was just disappointed to see someone with lifetime status not give it more of a chance, since I expect anyone with lifetime to know that "implementation" can be iffy here. I myself am not used to dying in this game outside of pvp so those first few trials I felt like I was picking up some random console game and trying to learn it on the fly.
If not for the reward I definitely wouldn't have bothered. It was fun for a little while, then routine. Now that the big reward is gone, I already stopped bothering.
See above.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.