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Overpowered perception
neojin777
Posts: 100 Arc User
To make it clear and fast, mainly FF running around being able to spot stealthed/teleporting targets instantly is quite the most unbelievable feature a game with cloaking/stealthing could have. It is unfair, to those who can not just stack int at free will or shield/heal etc. This is the main issue that has always caused me losses in duels (being seen while teleporting). The perception feature shouldn't even exist, since it does nothing than giving already overpowered FF even more power. Perception along with certain other things are killing the pvp aspect of CO. I would like to suggest the removal of the stat, for obvious reasons.
I won't start any arguement with the QQ-club since i know very well that i am right and that every single of you uses full perception which already explains alot, doesn't it?
have a nice day.
I won't start any arguement with the QQ-club since i know very well that i am right and that every single of you uses full perception which already explains alot, doesn't it?
have a nice day.
Post edited by neojin777 on
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Anyway, high Perception is also attainable by many Archetypes, not just Freeforms.
And stealth characters are aggravatingly powerful in PvP, last I knew. I had one, myself, and was able to just toss a Smoke Grenade every once in awhile and blast my enemy without any fear of repercussion whatsoever. Heck, if they didn't run away and/or use PBAoEs, I was able to trot right up and beat them to death in melee, still unseen. Perception is absolutely needed to deal with those types of characters.
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
I know who you are and you have been loled at by alot of people for your rash insults to other players about your last issue when you said that FLIGHT IS OVERPOWERED
Perception is a good feature in this game and should stay. The reason? Is because it makes sense. if you decided to run up against VIPER as you were leveling without any form of perception without any decent AoE attacks and Infiltrators everywhere you would die.
Intelligence as the name suggests allows people to see/perceive people in stealth. You may wanna look into this stat as this is a completely flawed OP.
Dexterity increases the usefulness of stealth powers. It is not only FF's who have stealth perception. For example, stacking high on INT for the Impulse AT is great as it allowed me to see through your stealth in battle and force cascade you when you kept running from me
If you dont like stealth perception find something else to do with your characters and dont PvP. Whether you like it or not Stealth perception will stay.
Stealth in PvP has always been quite powerful. And with the introduction of Ninja Vanish, Night Avenger AT and other stealth/perception debuff powers. Stealth could well be at it's highest peak of power.
If anything Stealth Perception should be buffed a BIT I think. However saying that...recently a friend of mine without any INT statted was able to see through my stealth and target me as the Night Avenger AT... Not sure if this is different now but I will be testing it..
If you are not willing to stack on Dex to increase your stealth effectiveness, then perhaps all I can suggest is having a quicker finger and clicking the No Thanks button on the challenge to duel.
Also another thing crushing out stealth perception would put a major damp on concept builds, I mean why would you have a state of the art battle suit system without basic infrared goggles?
By the way are you suggesting a removal of the Intelligence stat?!
If so I think you might want to get some before you ask about getting it removed...
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He just askes for real life balance here, since everyone else is so overpowered against him :biggrin:
Serious .. don't care what that guy talks .. if it were about him they should remove Freeform
from the game :rolleyes:
LOL that made my day xD. You always know how to make people laugh. good one xD
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Whoa there. Slow down.
I will say this again. Take your archetype Night Warrior and sign up for the archetype PvP arenas that don't allow Freeform heroes in. You never, ever, have to participate in PvP against a Freeform hero unless you choose to. Although I'm pretty sure in this case my advice actually won't help you.
The whole Stealth and Perception system has been in the game since the beginning. Frankly, it has been broken for just as long, too. The new Night Hawk archetype and freeform powers are designed to make stealth more appealing. Sneak itself has been upgraded to make it easier to go in to stealth mode from combat, doubled the melee attack bonus and added a ranged attack bonus, and just overall boosted its stealth power 50% from what it used to be. But really, it is still the same power it has always been, except now bundled with an excellent passive offense. The actual rules of stealth hasn't been changed.
There are no perception powers in the game. Closest thing to it Aura of Primal Majesty, which boost perception indirectly by boosting all your main stats. Otherwise, PBAoE attacks like Iron Cyclone, Lead Tempest, and others can hit everything in the area without a specific target. Damage knocks the opponent out of stealth, and so the opponent can be detected that way. Instead, anti-stealth perception is strictly a function of intelligence and specific perception equipment. So, the Invincible, Grimoire, Impulse, Inventor, Marksman, and Radiant all have the means to see through your stealth. Even outside that, anybody else should be able to significantly reduce their vulnerability to stealth by putting a perception core into some utility gear along with an intelligence enhancement or two. The catch here is that you can't get perception cores (AFAIK) except as a possible reward from two very specific missions, one of them in Lemuria. So they are very rare.
Come to think of it, the Grimoire might actually be a nightmare waiting to happen for any Night Warrior. On top of a primary intelligence super stat, they have Aura of Primal Majesty to boost all their stats even further. It might be interesting to see if their Sigils inherit enough of the Grimoire's stats to reach out and zap a Night Warrior. But even without, one well timed Pillar of Poz can take stealth right out of the equation.
As a Night Warrior, you may be prepared for an unfair fight. But that doesn't mean you'll be able to thrive without learning how to fight fair. And frankly, they are far from hopeless even if their stealth does get countered. The 10% penetration from the Night Warrior passive itself is the same mechanic as the 50% penetration of Dragons Wrath (on the Unleashed, so don't QQ about FF here). It's like having all your powers with a mini Dragons Wrath tied to what they already do. Even that other monster of a melee power Dragon's Claw. (Yes, on Night Warrior.)
Oh, and I should probably say this too since you said "that every single of you uses full perception which already explains alot, doesn't it?" You should be using perception gear too, if you're serious about PvP. Just try to hit someone standing in the middle of a set of Sigils of Radiant Sanctuary (yes, Radiant archetype) if you doubt me. Don't use perception gear, and those siglis go from joke straight to an "I win" button. Ditto Night Warrior's Sneak and Shadow Strike. Ditto a soldier's smoke grenades. Yes, you can become blind by having your perception completely debuffed regardless of stealth or no stealth.
Nobody should have an "I win" button.
heh... it's not a good idea to start your post talking about a QQ club when that's exactly what you've been doing. You're complaining about not being able to teleport safely when the only people who teleport in duels are either turbo-n00bs or elite pvp aficionados. You're also stating that freeforms are overpowered just because you're using an intentionally nerfed build (archetype). You do more damage than freeforms and you're still complaining.
Common sense should tell you not to duel freeforms. There is a way to tell whether or not someone challenging you is an archetype or not.
moving away from that point though,
people /invest/ in perception/INT, clearly their investments must be paying off if threads like this are going to pop up.
"he/she's kicking my **** with "power/ability X" NERF NAO PLOX"
Fcobf member #1 is seriously trying to tell me to use smoke grenade on a Blade AT?
Infrared goggles (i rp too much and got no clue about wth is going on in the world<-)
that can see into different dimensions? - sigh - ~ try harder please.
cheers.
I wouldn't worry about the other players seeing you when stealthed, as they could track you by the smell of bull****.
If stealthed players couldn't be seen easily, then they would simply win all the time as shadow strike is so insanely powerful. It can 1 hit kill even the toughest tank when the attacker is stealthed. As it is, opposing players must SS INT and take a perception boosting primary and/or secondary, to see stealthed players, which means losing out in other areas. So whilst I am sure you would prefer to kill helpless targets, the fact is balance is required, so a solution for stealth exists to prevent exploitation.
1- Don't insult me by saying try harder. If anyone need to try hard it's you. Work on making your posts make sense not only gramatically but also coherant.
Just because I RP doesnt mean I dont know whats going on in the world...
In reference to the Infrared goggles you were talking about perception in general it seemed so I applied that little illustration about concept builds to stealth powers..not teleport...
The way I see it, the only message I am getting here from this post is this..
"Uh phone call for Mr. N. OOB...." >_>
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You know you are right when everyone else tells you you are wrong... that's a logical deduction.
My main is an AT, and yet I still have 5 FF 40s. I'm all to familiar with what its like to be seen teleporting. In fact, losing to perception when I first started was my motivation for learning how the system worked.
Pvp is broken and unbalanced - but perception is far from overpowered and in fact underpowered as it's much harder to slot than it was pre-alert.
If these are the kinds of things you're complaining about, you should consider avoiding pvp altogether. If you're gut instinct is to complain instead of learning why you were beat, than your pvp experience will primarily be just you whining because you'll never learn or improve, but simply blame your losses on anything and anyone other than yourself.
Teleport is a travel power not a defensive power. People being able to shoot at you while you are using your TP is something that all of the other TP's have to deal with. So deal with it. You already get instant acceleration and no combat speed penalty out of it. You also get stealth out of it when facing characters who have not specced for perception. So get over it.
I would agree tha perception should not exist, if stealth did not. For everything there should be a counter.
Perhaps if characters had their attack powers disabled for 2 seconds after emerging from stealth it would be appropriate to remove perception. Then again, even there, teleport, merely a TP, remains superbly effective as an escape power.
Nope, in order to justify removing perception you would have to remove the ability to use stealth in an offensive or defensive manner.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Oh, I've been introduced to the FCOBF as their #1 member? I am so honored. Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm telling every Soldier AT PvPer out there to Smoke Grenade your pansy Blade **** until you lrn 2 play, n00b.
Perception is so "unfair/overpowered" because stealth itself is that unfair/overpowered. It has been a while, but I have seen a lone teleporter force a draw in the UTC arenas after her other four teammates quit. In fact, after seeing it, I actually did it once myself. Zombie Apocalypse has a rule implemented that teleporting and tunneling heroes are actually "out of bounds" and therefore off the clock. Otherwise a teleporter could phase out and win every time by being untouchable.
I'll let you in on a bit of a secret. Kevin Poe does not have perception gear. Neither does Foxbat, Hi Pan, Medusa, Psimon, Viper-X, or anybody in those gangs. Actually, I think enough people have sneaked passed Telios's 5-man lair's defenses to kick his cloned brain's rear metal plating solo that anti-stealth measures have been added to all the 5-man lairs. But that does not include the adventure packs, alerts, any of the world content, or any solo mission instances. So there is plenty for a stealther to do outside the arenas that nobody is going to complain about. Except maybe out of envy.
Just a quick question..out of sheer intrest and lack of being upto date with lingo..what is FCOBF and QFT mean?
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I know QFT is Quoted For Truth, but FCOBF escapes me.
Topic wise : lolnope. Perception is there so you don't get knifed without even being able to fight back. Nuff said.
Deliciously nutritious!
I have zero sympathy for your stealthing, teleporting, pvp-killing, obnoxiously annoying build.
...
To be even more clear. I hope the moment you hit your teleport butting you got crit for 10k.
Just consider it flame bait and me responding somewhat inappropriately to it. Don't mind it too much.
QFT is common enough to make it into the Urban Dictionary. But I probably wouldn't have known that without a Google search.
And since I'm here, I might as well get this off my chest. I actually have a lot of respect for Cryptic for trying to fix the broken stealth/perception system instead of just abandoning it completely. That also means that I haven't actually disagreed that the system is broken. But I'm still having lots of fun here anyway.
That's what he meant? Who talks like this?
But then again, he's complaining about standard pvp fare I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
I think he is referring to the care bears perhaps?
But to be honest, I dont ever recall seeing them in PvP, I have seen them in PvE though.. :eek:
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Look bud, you dont have diminishing returns, play to your strengths. I still get owned by Unleashed, how do you think it makes me feel, buying a free form slot (2 of them) and losing?
Besides that there are always people like me, who would rather invest in something else BESIDES trying to chase your running/stealthing **** down. I like going toe to toe with the bricks/tanks in the game with my tk blades.
That being said, your usually too squishy to run fast enough or hide well enough from players like me, stealth or no.
EDIT: BTW, all someone has to do is put a stack of poison or bleed on you and you phase in and out of stealth ^.^
Trust me - Your pwning has just begun.
clearly were "failforms" when youre getting your arse beaten in and are QQing in the first place. ANY character, freeform, or AT can invest in INT and perception gear. ifyoure going to PVP, mroe likely than not, theyll be able to see you, as stealth builds, be they melee or ranged, are highly popular in PVP, INT and perception are the proper counters to this.
to clarify: ANYONE can do this, AT or freeform, you just need to take the time out to get the proper gear and invest in it.
Stealth exists to provide you an edge not an "I win" button. Take a look at every other game out there that has stealth without effective counters to them. The stealth classes in them are always at the top of the PvP charts because stealth is an "I win" button for them. Now, while some of them cut the stealth classes damage drastically to balance things, Champions does not, infact you actually gain a damage buff in stealth now. Even in Teleport you gain a damage resistance buff.
Now if you're being killed in teleport then your up against people with maxed Int AND +perception gear, Int alone doesn't provide high enough perception to see through teleport last I checked. Even high Int characters have issues with Smoke Grenade stealth too since it not only grants them stealth but it debuffs their opponents perception as well often to the point that they are stealthed to high Int characters too. Then there's Pet masters with R3 Ice Beast, it's snowstorm debuffs perception like crazy and removes targeting.
Stealth is a potent and absurdly deadly ability in champions online, counter's for it are few and far between too.
Now if you really want to complain about perception and stealth maybe you should fight a pet master and just try to teleport. Their Int/perception won't matter, pets have perfect perception and can still see you, they might not attack you while you teleport but they will follow you the whole time and get you the instant you phase back in.
Well said :cool:
I would also like to add that if someone uses Collective Will against you - even if they only summon one - Your done for. They are untargetable, hit for over 1k each time (and that was at level 30ish with no gear) and can see you NO MATTER WHAT you do. So if they manage to summon all three of them, hitting for lets say a modest amount of 2k each(est. @lvl 40) thats around 63k damage over the 21 seconds that they last. And thats if they attack every two seconds, which im sure they attack faster. All someone would have to do is block.... and wait
Even in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.
There's no point in adding a stealth based AT/ stealth skills at all with a stupid perception system like this where the "pros" (almost inhaled my cup of coffee, just saying this) can FC you at any time they please, while you can... pop your ad watch ascension go off, FC spam round 2 etc. and that is what you guys consider competetive pvp? Seriously this is starting to become ridiculous, since a blind monkey with half a brain can clearly see that it is an unfair advantage added ontop of the other unfair advantages.
How exactly does a blind monkey see anything, with or without a full brain? This is as logical as the rest of your argument. You lost to better prepared players, live with it. If stealth had no counter, everybody would take it and pvp would be even more ridiculous as nobody would dare attack for fear of becoming visible and being ganked. Ultimately it would deteriorate into a mass of stealthed players vainly looking for their invisible opponents. How exactly is that fun?
I'll say this once:
Yeah... you know you're a jerk when you start categorize everybody else around you as being worthless pieces of crap amidst your epic greatness by saying stuff like this. Get over yourself boy.
Have you even consider some people might actually be newbies to the game? Of course not, that would require willful compassion, a character trait you consistently show that you utterly lack, both in-game and on the forums.
There are no real excuses for poor sportsmanship. Games are about having fun first, then winning. Most competitive people would say they like both and that winning is fun, but good sports also recognize a worthy foe and a challenging battle as opportunity to improve, not whine like a child. If somebody owns me in a game, the first thing I think about is how this happened and how I could outsmart them next time. If I own somebody in a game, I'm gracious, not gloating (unless it's poetic justice I suppose).
Say what you will. I really don't give a damn, people will know what I've said is truth.
Cutting down others to make you feel better about yourself isn't a sign of strength it's a sign of weakness, cowardice, and cruelty. Say what you will, it's obvious to the readers here what you are, and we can smell your rot.
Question is, do you know what you are?
When is neojin777 ever NOT trolling or raging? Seriously, search his post history. It's very obvious.
INT. One of the most underestimated stats in PvP.
There's the so-called "perma-stealth" builds that HAVE been a FotM (flavor of the month) build in the past, almost exactly a year ago to the date. This is nothing new.
I've prepared for this and kept my pre-Alert, % based perception gear.
The issue here has less to do with stealth and more to do with the fact that perception gear is kinda rare and EXPENSIVE (Acclaim-wise) to get. Not many people (particularly newbies who don't even know what it does yet) have it.
In addition a new buff to stealth just came out, so you're going to have more people than usual using it. Let's the dust settle from the recent construction before claiming it's totally OP. It might just need time for people to adapt.
Keep in mind some highly specialized builds are nearly unbeatable unless you know their Achillies' Heel, their fatal weakness, and you exploit that to your advantage. This is the aspect of skill which can trump having the latest FotM.
I've seen plenty of FotM builds, if you make a counter build you can make them rage in disbelieve that their "undefeatable" build just got trashed. This is an enjoyable pinnacle of PvP combat, one that the legendary PvP-ers are good at, but I'm still trying to learn mastering that art (afterall, you should always expect there will be people better than you).
One of the best things about PvP is that there's well... always room to improve!
One of the worst things about PvP is there's lots of whining... about levels, about devices, about gold v. silver, about different archetypes, about certain powers being OP, about lag... About basically ANYTHING out of their locus of control. Occasionally the complaints have some validity, most of the time they are gross hyperbole and are just well... BS.
Steps to solve this:
1. Less QQ, more pew-pew
2. Be a good sport, don't be like neojin777 or Aloydis or Relm or KFC.
3. Encourage Cryptic (nicely) to lower the Acclaim prices on Hero Game vendor gear.
4. Encourage Cryptic to make perception cores a bit more available.
5. Adapt to counter the latest FotM (assuming that becomes the new stealth builds), or just play archetype PvP instead.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Yes some of the regulars may be harsh in their tone. However, do listen to what so many others have to say. They have been PvPing in CO for years and they know the system very well inside and out. Seek first to understand, then to be understood, 1 of the 7 habits of highly effective people.
I am not sure how often you PvP but why not observe how other players fight. Sure, you may be seeking an alternative to the current FotM but it does not mean calling nerf or foul to other players' powers or gears. Why not try to be more creative in finding a counter. Someone came up with a FotM. Why can't you come up with another one which will replace it. That gains you more respect.
I do not wish to repeat what the others have posted in regards to stealth or flight for that matter. Just take some time to think through with an open mind.
When has that ever worked in any game?
RIP Caine
I have gotten a tad too angry about the whole dilemma, that i forgot you guys play AT's, too and suffer the same way i do.
Sorry for acting like a kid.
Sincere apologies are always a good sign.
Really though, if you're spending a lot of time trying to duel in ren cen, before fighting an opponent, you can right click them and look at their info. If they're an AT it will state which one, otherwise the player is a FF.
As an AT you should avoid fighting FFs as pvp built FFs will always have a major advantage unless the player behind them is lacking in the skill department. Pre-alert my ATs were dangerous enough to be a threat to FFs regardless if they were pvp-oriented or not. Post-alert any pvp-oriented FF will outclass you as an AT.
Ok .. even if you were not able to kill Freon on elite Solo (
buy all you need from the AH. I did that myself a long time .. when i dinged 40 i simply
searched an hour through the AH and spent maybe 150-200g and had nice stuff
what gear was that? :eek:
surely not unity gear. xD
@Scrizz :biggrin:
I want Unity gear for 150 ~ 200!
Way closer to August, 2009, Teleport was a lot more exploitable than it is today. In Bash (everyone vs everyone) and UTC (Team vs. Team) arenas, it was the case that you can tell who was going to lose by their travel powers. Nobody attacked the Teleporters if they had a choice because frankly, they would just phase out and head for the nearest green pill before they got seriously into trouble. Failing that, they would just phase out and stay phased out until the game was declared a draw.
September of 2009, Teleport was altered so it could no longer be used while held.
May 2010, Nailed to the Ground was introduced as a general solution to travel power abuse. Especially for the fact that flying heroes could just stay out of reach of non-flying melee types. But I think it missed actually doing anything against the Teleport abuse at the time.
Unfortunately, I don't exactly know when the first extreme perception builds started appearing. It's hard to identify if it was part of a stealth-nerf somewhere or if some lucky genius simply figured out how to abuse perception gear to counter teleport abuse. (Yeah, that's what PvP is like in Champions.)
Teleport is a cool gameplay mechanic that met the hard realities of player creativity in abusing of any given system to gain an edge and the need for developers to keep the game balanced so everything has its counter. Then again, this is a Superhero genre we are playing with. It wouldn't be all that out of character for Dr. Strange to be able to see into other dimensions, or for a telepath to predict where a teleporter is going from mind-reading, or for the "Spidey" senses to be tingling, etc. etc.
SL Elite Gear was nearly the best gear before on alert. If you were willing to spread your stats
a little bit and not just concentrate on 1 overly high stat, it was mostly not a big problem to
gear up from the AH completly in Elite gear with max 200g.
If you talke about the new Unity gear for Silver Tokens .. yeah i sold a lot of that stuff for
200g per piece .. was a nice way to make money
First off, that was hella mature. My hat's off to you, I think that might be the second time anyone ever admitted to being wrong on the internet. Cheers.
Thing about the teleport sight, on top of the abuse issues we used to have that Konru addressed, there's also the matter of flavor text. It says in the tooltip that you go to another dimension, but really? That's just fluff. If you wanna counter it with more fluff, consider that teleport works like the dungeons and dragons spell "dimension door" and your perception gear gives you true seeing.
Counter fluff.
RIP Caine
Why would it be more god-like to be able to see into another dimension than to be able to actually go there ?
If your character can project himself into dimension X, then someone else can be able to project their attacks into dimension X.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Poor form whining about someone being able to see you. Guess you've never had to deal with TPers hitting and running every other attack. And then wanting the system taken away because you can't be "super rogue".
And what's to say some character's high INT and perception don't go along with the player's theme. Such as a psychic sort of character being able to sense you, or a more feral character being able to smell you?
It's a game full of superheroes. It's illogical to expect some to not have the ability to know when you're there.
Same reason why there are any other abilities in this game: because it's fun.