If you were stacking Constitution, would you go Defiance or Invulnerability?

williamkony · August 2012

Or any defensive passive, really, doesn't matter which.

Anyway, if you had a character with 500-someodd Constitution, and had to choose a defensive passive, what would you go with? Assuming Advantage Points are available to bring any passive to 3. However, I'd also like to know if you would rank up Defiance with those points, or spend them on alternative "non-necessities", such as Travel Powers or Forms.

agentnx5 · August 2012

First of all, are you talking freeforms or archetypes? It makes a difference. (I'll assume freeform for the most part)

Second, it also depends on what you plan on encountering (lots of small hits or a few massive hits). And what you have for gear (maximized HP & defense, or a lot of dodge/avoidance).

Defiance is very strong if your a giant with regards to HP, and it has synergy with enrage stacks. Defiance gets more resilient if you're getting hit a lot, making it a good choice for many tank-ish characters.

Invulnerability used to get pretty much always get stacked with IDF, R3, for freeforms but not as much now (most people will go for an offensive toggle rather than the defensive one). To me, Invuln is a bit more hybrid-ish than defiance.

This is a very subjective question.

williamkony · August 2012

Sorry for the lack of details. XD

It is indeed Freeform. From my understanding, Archetypes don't suffer from diminishing returns?

Can't really say what kind of combat would be taking place, between small enemies or big ones. The focus is general-purpose defense.

Enrage isn't involved at all.

Gear will be centered around Offense for the offense items (which will lead to Defense via the Vindicator specialization tree), Dodge/Avoidance for the defense items, and Cost Reduction (since there's not really anything better) for the utility items.

Intertial Dampening Field isn't available. Concentration and Compassion will be there. Support abilities are Rank 2 Rebuke and Rank 3 Protection Field.

The character will be full-tanking, trying to keep the enemies focused on them instead of allies.

And of course, due to the Constitution-stacking, HP will be very high.

thesoulstar · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Enrage isn't involved at all.

Gear will be centered around Offense for the offense items (which will lead to Defense via the Vindicator specialization tree), Dodge/Avoidance for the defense items, and Cost Reduction (since there's not really anything better) for the utility items.

Intertial Dampening Field isn't available. Concentration and Compassion will be there. Support abilities are Rank 2 Rebuke and Rank 3 Protection Field.

The character will be full-tanking, trying to keep the enemies focused on them instead of allies.

Based off just reading this information alone I can personally tell you that you're probably gonna benefit more from Invulnerability.

Defiance without any enrage at all is just completely not gonna happen. Those two powers were practically made for one another from the get go even before the change it went through from the On Alert update.

Oh don't get me wrong Defiance is a damn fine passive of its own right no question about that but the natural synergy it shares with Enrage is above bar none.

Also if you're gonna take both rebuke and protection field then no doubt you might be aiming more for Compassion more then anything as it increases your heals and/or sheilds and stacks upon it plus gives you extra range damage but that's my own personal preference there. Concentration is also a good choice too for just the damage stacking alone.The choice is yours young padiwan.

gamehobo · August 2012

Don't listen to them.. Defiance wins on any toon greater than 300 CON. I've run the numbers. In its own way Defiance Scales with CON.

It also requires 0 advantage points to work.

Any toon with less than approx 300 CON should go invul hands down.

Also there are ways to improve base offense by taking fortified gear and the best offense found in Warden and Guardian specialization. This way you wont be hitting the enemy with pillows. This works best with Defiance as the buff actually improves your defense rating.

s3rju · August 2012

it depends on what you're hitting, or what's hitting you for that matter:
if it's bosses>defiance
if it's multiple mobs>invul

another point of view on those two is that the flat dmg absorb comes built into invul, while with defiance you need to take IDF to get that. on the other hand, the % mitigation you get with defiance has to be made up with 1 or 2 powers to get that % back.

with roughly 400 con you get 20ish per defiant! stack, that's 120...

i would go with invul, but that's just me, since:
laser knight>33%
defensive combo(just taken as an example)>20ish with 400 con

then add that to what invul offers at r3, and you will net a bigger mitigation than defiance.

aiqa · August 2012

It depends on a few things.

The normal differences you probably know.
Invulnerability really makes you nearly invulnerable, up to a certain point depending on enemy strength. After that point defiance starts to catch up and eventually overtake invulnerability.

At what base damage defiance actually starts getting better then invuln. is not very easy to say, it depends on the rest of the build.

In general.
Damage resistance suffers from diminishing returns, and the fixed points damage reduction from unvuln. is calculated after all the percentage based stuff. That means the more damage resistance you have from other sources the longer it takes for defiance to catch up.
That are things like laserknight, circle of primal dominion, high defense stat, resistance from tank role, etc.
Also keep in mind you can get one defiance stack without actually using the defiance passive, by using either defensive combo, or cleave+adv.

In any way, on fights like gravitar you are better of with defiance, while doing therakiels temple or nemcon invulnerability is probably easier.

Also I do not really understand why enrage is considered important, if anyone can explain what important synergy is still present I would be grateful.

sagewithbubbles · August 2012

Most things in PvE don't hit hard enough to where Defiance's extra mitigation over Invuln will matter.

Especially in light of defense-increasing spec trees, where Defiance hits DR far faster than Invuln does.

Adding dodge benefits Invuln more than Defiance in the vast majority of situations, though Defiance-dodge is capable of taking larger hits (that don't really exist in the current metagame outside of PvP).

Go with Invuln unless you really, really want Defiance's energy return. It doesn't have to be maintained, it meshes better with most defense-boosting specs, and the vast majority of the hits you take will be smaller hits.

pugdaddy · August 2012

I just love Regen, which now provides 30% damage resist at Rank 3. A permanent self-heal. Of course, my Regen tank also uses Armadillo Secondary Gear from the Q-Store for additional 25% damage resist and he uses Devour Essence for Crippling Challenge and additional self-heal. Compassion Form, Resurgence, and Summon Shadows with that healing advantage add even more heals. He's very hard to kill.
If Defiance vs. Invun is the only question, I'd say Invun.

secksegai · August 2012

gamehobo wrote: »

Don't listen to them.. Defiance wins on any toon greater than 300 CON. I've run the numbers. In its own way Defiance Scales with CON.

It also requires 0 advantage points to work.

Any toon with less than approx 300 CON should go invul hands down.

Also there are ways to improve base offense by taking fortified gear and the best offense found in Warden and Guardian specialization. This way you wont be hitting the enemy with pillows. This works best with Defiance as the buff actually improves your defense rating.

For someone who ran the numbers... you're forgetting something jaybezz.... you know, the flat mitigation that can turn most attacks into 1 point of dmg vs defiant only reducing said attack by percentage (and thus generally take more damage)

Defiance is strong, but Invul is better overall mitigation. 6 stack defiant can take bigger hits better than invul, but its the little hits that add up fast.

angelofcaine · August 2012

Don't forget the important things, like graphics aura:

Defiance ("Pulses")
Invulnerability ("Sparkles")

.

williamkony · August 2012

angelofcaine wrote: »

Don't forget the important things, like graphics aura:
Defiance ("Pulses")

Invulnerability ("Sparkles")

.

Well, shoot, that decides it all right there!

(Kidding)

Thanks for the input, y'all! Sorry to drag this on, but I'm afraid I'm gearing up for another round; got more information to throw at everyone. XD

thesoulstar wrote: »

Based off just reading this information alone I can personally tell you that you're probably gonna benefit more from Invulnerability.

Defiance without any enrage at all is just completely not gonna happen. Those two powers were practically made for one another from the get go even before the change it went through from the On Alert update.

Oh don't get me wrong Defiance is a damn fine passive of its own right no question about that but the natural synergy it shares with Enrage is above bar none.

Also if you're gonna take both rebuke and protection field then no doubt you might be aiming more for Compassion more then anything as it increases your heals and/or sheilds and stacks upon it plus gives you extra range damage but that's my own personal preference there. Concentration is also a good choice too for just the damage stacking alone.The choice is yours young padiwan.

The only synergy I'm seeing with Enrage now is Endorphin Rush.

Is there something I'm missing?

Compassion was indeed the form I intended to use while tanking, though unfortunately, all that Constitution means my other two Superstats will suffer... Presence will be hanging at around 110, I think, boosted solely by Superstat selection and Talents. Don't know how much healing that adds, either straight up or through Compassion.

gamehobo wrote: »

Don't listen to them.. Defiance wins on any toon greater than 300 CON. I've run the numbers. In its own way Defiance Scales with CON.

It also requires 0 advantage points to work.

Any toon with less than approx 300 CON should go invul hands down.

Also there are ways to improve base offense by taking fortified gear and the best offense found in Warden and Guardian specialization. This way you wont be hitting the enemy with pillows. This works best with Defiance as the buff actually improves your defense rating.

That was my thought, really, that with such high Constitution, Defiance would benefit considerably. And likewise my fear, in that so much Constitution would mean Invulnerability suffers. I'm not sure how most passives react to stat-stacking.

The advantage points are one other reason I'd consider Defiance. However, I don't actually need all the points it'd return to me. I've ranked everything I need to rank, really. Two of the points would go towards maxing out my Active Offense power, and then the other two, I don't know how I'd use. Both Travel Powers are sitting at rank 2, which I'd rather not increase for thematic purposes, and I don't believe either Concentration or Compassion really benefit from extra ranks. Unlike the various Martial Arts forms, they don't gain multiple stacks at a time when brought up. At least, as far as I'm aware.
I was in fact thinking of just tossing the other two points right back on Defiance. 20-21% extra resistance at the start of the fight.

And lastly, yeah, I'll be using Guardian alongside Vindicator for the little "feedback loop" of Offense/Defense. As additional information, I'll also be using the Presence tree, with the specializations boosting my Offense based on Presence, and Defense based on Constitution/Intelligence.

s3rju wrote: »

it depends on what you're hitting, or what's hitting you for that matter:
if it's bosses>defiance
if it's multiple mobs>invul

another point of view on those two is that the flat dmg absorb comes built into invul, while with defiance you need to take IDF to get that. on the other hand, the % mitigation you get with defiance has to be made up with 1 or 2 powers to get that % back.

with roughly 400 con you get 20ish per defiant! stack, that's 120...

i would go with invul, but that's just me, since:
laser knight>33%
defensive combo(just taken as an example)>20ish with 400 con

then add that to what invul offers at r3, and you will net a bigger mitigation than defiance.

Well, I generally don't fear smaller enemies even without a defensive passive, as they're fairly easy to clear out... But that isn't always the case, and I like being prepared. I like being prepared a lot.

Unfortunately, I don't have any more power slots to work with, and have not taken Inertial Dampening Field, Energy Shield, or Defensive Combo. Which may make it even harder to maintain Defiance, but I do have Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes, so I'm hoping to be able to keep attention on me.

S'anyway, yeah, without those extra powers, getting more resistance than Defiance offers isn't an option. However, I'm still fond of the linear damage reduction on Invulnerability; my concern lies primarily in its growth based on Superstats.

aiqa wrote: »

It depends on a few things.

The normal differences you probably know.
Invulnerability really makes you nearly invulnerable, up to a certain point depending on enemy strength. After that point defiance starts to catch up and eventually overtake invulnerability.

At what base damage defiance actually starts getting better then invuln. is not very easy to say, it depends on the rest of the build.

In general.
Damage resistance suffers from diminishing returns, and the fixed points damage reduction from unvuln. is calculated after all the percentage based stuff. That means the more damage resistance you have from other sources the longer it takes for defiance to catch up.
That are things like laserknight, circle of primal dominion, high defense stat, resistance from tank role, etc.
Also keep in mind you can get one defiance stack without actually using the defiance passive, by using either defensive combo, or cleave+adv.

In any way, on fights like gravitar you are better of with defiance, while doing therakiels temple or nemcon invulnerability is probably easier.

Also I do not really understand why enrage is considered important, if anyone can explain what important synergy is still present I would be grateful.

Is it actually diminishing returns that affects it, or more a case of each additional drop not seeming as big as the last? I mean, there'll be a more noticeable difference between 30-35% resistance than between 120-125%.

I wasn't sure where the linear reduction on Invulnerability fell in the calculation order, so thanks for giving me that info. XD That's definitely a huge chunk over the other way around, linear reduction before resistance.

The things that will be adding defense are Tank role, the actual Defense stat which should, hopefully, be hanging around 60-70% or more, and then the slotted passive. Then lastly, Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes will reduce enemy damage straight-up, which I'm assuming will work more often on bosses given the constant application. Smaller enemies will spend less time debuffed simply due to dying faster.

sagewithbubbles wrote: »

Most things in PvE don't hit hard enough to where Defiance's extra mitigation over Invuln will matter.

Especially in light of defense-increasing spec trees, where Defiance hits DR far faster than Invuln does.

Adding dodge benefits Invuln more than Defiance in the vast majority of situations, though Defiance-dodge is capable of taking larger hits (that don't really exist in the current metagame outside of PvP).

Go with Invuln unless you really, really want Defiance's energy return. It doesn't have to be maintained, it meshes better with most defense-boosting specs, and the vast majority of the hits you take will be smaller hits.

I definitely love mashing defense types together, and having both linear reduction and percentage resistance, a la Invulnerability, is very enticing, even if just for the knowledge that it's there as opposed to actual effectiveness.

The lack of maintenance and buildup are also great boons for Invulnerability over Defiance, definitely. And I don't foresee having any energy issues, due to Overdrive and an Intelligence secondary, plus Cost Reduction items. Though, Intelligence will be lower than the "target value" due to the rampant Constitution-stacking, so I'm not sure exactly how much it will affect Overdrive and energy costs.

pugdaddy wrote: »

I just love Regen, which now provides 30% damage resist at Rank 3. A permanent self-heal. Of course, my Regen tank also uses Armadillo Secondary Gear from the Q-Store for additional 25% damage resist and he uses Devour Essence for Crippling Challenge and additional self-heal. Compassion Form, Resurgence, and Summon Shadows with that healing advantage add even more heals. He's very hard to kill.
If Defiance vs. Invun is the only question, I'd say Invun.

Regeneration is most certainly an option. Given that my only self-healing is Rebuke and Radiance (Don't even have Rush of Battle from Vindicator; no room!), some more health recovery would be very welcome. I doubt Protection Field will be terribly potent at just 110 Presence.

I wasn't sure how large the resistance boost added to Regeneration was, due to that information still being missing from the Wiki. It actually seems to be a pretty substantial amount, given the health regeneration itself. Alongside the resistance offered by the Defense stat, I do wonder if it'd be an adequate passive. And it does benefit from Compassion, right? Would certainly make maintaining Compassion stacks a lot easier, as I don't have to use any active healing to trigger it.

If I could get some extra input on Regeneration, I'd appreciate it! :P

secksegai wrote: »

For someone who ran the numbers... you're forgetting something jaybezz.... you know, the flat mitigation that can turn most attacks into 1 point of dmg vs defiant only reducing said attack by percentage (and thus generally take more damage)

Defiance is strong, but Invul is better overall mitigation. 6 stack defiant can take bigger hits better than invul, but its the little hits that add up fast.

Those little hits are certainly a bit of a concern... My old build for this character was using Invulnerability as well as Eye of the Storm, which made small enemy fights a breeze. Eye of the Storm is out, now, and I'm not sure how multi-enemy fights will change as a result. I fear that even in being wary, I'm underestimating the potency of all those small hits. I haven't fought hordes using Defiance before, at least not without Intertial Dampening Field tacked on as well, and thus I could very easily be shooting myself in the foot by even considering Defiance over Invulnerability.

TL;DR

-I'm concerned that the Constitution stacking will reduce Invulnerability's effectiveness due to lower values on my other two Superstats.

-Regeneration is now in the running, as well. I have Compassion and 110 Presence to bolster the effects. (I wouldn't mind dropping a bit of Constitution to boost up Presence for the purpose of better Regeneration.)

-I only have a real use for two of the four advantage points I'd get from using Defiance over Invulnerability.

-I have no spare powers slots, and only have Rebuke, Radiance, Protection Field, Crippling Challenge, and Challenging Strikes as defense-augmenting powers/power-based effects.

-I should have a considerable Defense stat (offering 60-70% resistance or more), as well as whatever dodge stats are attainable using Defense items.

happygreenpotato · August 2012

Why not Regeneration or Lightning Reflexes?

williamkony · August 2012

happygreenpotato wrote: »

Why not Regeneration or Lightning Reflexes?

Regeneration is definitely a possibility, now. XD With Compassion, I'll have increased healing on that, as well as a more potent Protection Field which I can just toss up repeatedly if I'm low on health to recover for a bit. Then, Regeneration itself triggers Compassion, making it really easy to maintain. Given that my only healing options right now are Radiance and Rebuke, Regeneration gives me some much-needed self-healing. I'm just not sure if the relatively low resistance (compared to Defiance/Invulnerability) is enough. I've also just been told that the resistance it gives diminishes as you take damage. Though, since the health regeneration goes up, that would hopefully be self-balancing.

As for Lightning Reflexes... Unfortunately, dodge and avoidance are the only potent thing defense gear can add, really, and the effectiveness of multiple dodge sources hits a sharp decline with each one tacked on. So, it'd make the defense gear give far less "bang for the buck", for one... Second, it'd need to be ranked up to be effective, and if pure damage reduction is what I'm after, I think Invulnerability would cover that better for the same investment.

agentnx5 · August 2012

This is turning into a great discussion! And to the above, I think you're severely underestimating lightning reflexes working with the dodge/avoidance mechanic... How experience are you with dodge tanks I wonder?

williamkony · August 2012

agentnx5 wrote: »

This is turning into a great discussion! And to the above, I think you're severely underestimating lightning reflexes working with the dodge/avoidance mechanic... How experience are you with dodge tanks I wonder?

I haven't used one since On Alert came about. XD I had one before, using Bountiful Chi Resurgence with Resurgent Reiki, Inertial Dampening Field, and Form of the Master with Storm's Eye Prana. Think it also had Eye of the Storm, and Force Shield with Force Sheath. But not a single one of those powers are available to this build. :P Protection Field is the closest, but without good healing coming in, that doesn't mean much.

I also had a dedicated super-tank, which didn't use Lightning Reflexes, but did have dodge gear and Parry with Elusive Monk, plus Bountiful Chi Resurgence, Form of the Master, Devour Essence, yada yada. It's certainly effective with incoming healing, particularly BCR, but I can't see it being all that effective on its own.

It basically adds the boss-centric damage reduction of Defiance, with the advantage point requirement of Invulnerability, to me. If I had room for BCR, it would certainly be a viable option, but that's just not open to me. XD All I have is the one power slot for a passive.

helbjorn · August 2012

Before On Alert when you could stack IDF with an offensive form, I don't think there was any question that Defiance/IDF was superior to Invulnerability. But now, for regular play, Invulnerability wins hands down. My Invulnerability/Bestial took does quite well against Warlord and Gravitar, and he's not even a dedicated tank.

If you wanted a straight up tank build with that much CON, I think Defiance/IDF would still be good choice, but you would lose out on some offensive capability.

konru2 · August 2012

Looks like I'm late to this party.

Honestly, I'm reminded of an old PvP "supertank" tactic. One of the bigger features of Defiance is that it gives you energy every 4 seconds scaling to constitution and improved by recovery. With an extreme constitution like that, the extra energy is more than enough to fuel Bountiful Chi, Bionic Shielding, and Conviction at once. I remember in Stronghold, some of these supertanks were more than capable of steamrolling through the whole enemy teams, turrets, and commanders without any ally help. That is, until the whole role and stat pass nerfed healing to (self censored).

I know you already said that most of your powers are set. But if you have Rebuke, Compassion, and Protection field, I think you can still use this. Set Defiance as your passive, but instead of ranking it up, rank up your Protection Field and Compassion (if you haven't already). With Defiance filling your energy every 4 seconds, you should be able to easily pop that Protection Field on yourself every 4 seconds without otherwise slowing down your attack rate.

If you haven't set your stats in stone, switch from presence to recovery to fuel Compassion, and make an effort to get recovery to 200 even if it lowers your constitution to 400. That will pay out in how much extra healing and bubble shielding Compassion allows you while doubling your energy generation. The stat target for presence at level 40 before diminishing returns starts to really kick in is a very low 70. Talents alone are enough to keep most of your healing bonus from presence if you choose.

gamehobo · August 2012

helbjorn wrote: »

Before On Alert when you could stack IDF with an offensive form, I don't think there was any question that Defiance/IDF was superior to Invulnerability. But now, for regular play, Invulnerability wins hands down. My Invulnerability/Bestial took does quite well against Warlord and Gravitar, and he's not even a dedicated tank.

If you wanted a straight up tank build with that much CON, I think Defiance/IDF would still be good choice, but you would lose out on some offensive capability.

secksegai wrote: »

For someone who ran the numbers... you're forgetting something jaybezz.... you know, the flat mitigation that can turn most attacks into 1 point of dmg vs defiant only reducing said attack by percentage (and thus generally take more damage)

Defiance is strong, but Invul is better overall mitigation. 6 stack defiant can take bigger hits better than invul, but its the little hits that add up fast.

Have a look at Cliff-Side

He is by far the best damage dealing tank I've ever seen. Many PvPers will tell you to try to use Dodge+Mitigation because in PvP it pays to have multiple forms of damage mitigation.. and the best way to get Dodge+Mitigation is with Invul..

However your question was "On a CON toon" how do they fair.. Defiance wins HANDS DOWN, every time. The mitigation tops invul, your health is much higher innately, and your ability to sustain long fights rather big hits or multiple small hits is vastly improved. I reccommend using Primary Defense of +Defense and Impact mods (not dodge/avoidance) because the "Fortified Gear" specialization will turn even the crappiest tank into a great tank. Add to that "The best Offense" which DOES increase when you have higher defense (which Invul does NOT give you and stacks of Defiant DO give you) you also regain your ability to give adequate (though lower compared to someone who'd stack DEX or EGO with Invul) damage.

This is not even mentioning all the secondary powers you could take to boost the effects Defiant. For invul to reach this level of Tank/Offense you have SO many power and advantage points just to play catch up. You dont need IDF for CON/Defiance, you dont need Bubbles for CON/Defiance, and you dont need Dodge boosting powers for CON/Defiance, You dont need alot of NRG management for CON/Defiance.. Quite simply it wins because its cost is low and its benefit is high.

Strictly by the numbers, If CON is the stat you want, then Defiance is the passive you want. Invul is a poor man's tank .. aka someone who wants offensive stat type (Ego, Dex, Int, etc) with a defensive passive.

Finally, numbers be damned. Pick the power that fits your concept. Number crunching.. while fun for an accountant, does not always equate to fun for the player

- -

To your questions about stacking PRE.. no need really.. Resurgence+Compassion will refill you to full health even at the lowest points (even with 602 CON). But Compassion does not scale with CON so if you are afraid of losing effectiveness for this IDF is the only form that does not require INT, REC, PRE, STR, DEX. So if you are statting END or CON your best bet is "usually" to go with IDF because.. it's "the other white meat" of the group.

ayonachan · August 2012

To avoid spoiling the void I shall just stamp out what others have said before.

490 Con is all you need to get the most out of defiance

490 is also the number that all (non-idf) forms love

Invul/Dodge tanks beat Defiance/Dodge tanks at everything except things that hit for over 14k base damage

Invul takes almost all pve hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Defiance takes all those non-pve and extreme hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Regen is like defiance except it requires the player to use a certain route to maximize performance and it can surpass even defiance/dodge (slow) heavy hitters

LR is for lazy people and for those who want an easier pve farm

PFF is for the people who have visited the void and have learned the many secrets within said void....or the few who thought it would be 'cool' but quickly switched once they tried it out..(sorta like mighty kick)

williamkony · August 2012

helbjorn wrote: »

Before On Alert when you could stack IDF with an offensive form, I don't think there was any question that Defiance/IDF was superior to Invulnerability. But now, for regular play, Invulnerability wins hands down. My Invulnerability/Bestial took does quite well against Warlord and Gravitar, and he's not even a dedicated tank.

If you wanted a straight up tank build with that much CON, I think Defiance/IDF would still be good choice, but you would lose out on some offensive capability.

In this particular case, I don't really care about my damage output, so long as my defense and threat generation are enough. :P I'll be using Plasma Beam with Challenging Strikes, to get 2000 threat per second before any bonuses or damage. Should hopefully keep things on me.

konru2 wrote: »

Looks like I'm late to this party.

Honestly, I'm reminded of an old PvP "supertank" tactic. One of the bigger features of Defiance is that it gives you energy every 4 seconds scaling to constitution and improved by recovery. With an extreme constitution like that, the extra energy is more than enough to fuel Bountiful Chi, Bionic Shielding, and Conviction at once. I remember in Stronghold, some of these supertanks were more than capable of steamrolling through the whole enemy teams, turrets, and commanders without any ally help. That is, until the whole role and stat pass nerfed healing to (self censored).

I know you already said that most of your powers are set. But if you have Rebuke, Compassion, and Protection field, I think you can still use this. Set Defiance as your passive, but instead of ranking it up, rank up your Protection Field and Compassion (if you haven't already). With Defiance filling your energy every 4 seconds, you should be able to easily pop that Protection Field on yourself every 4 seconds without otherwise slowing down your attack rate.

If you haven't set your stats in stone, switch from presence to recovery to fuel Compassion, and make an effort to get recovery to 200 even if it lowers your constitution to 400. That will pay out in how much extra healing and bubble shielding Compassion allows you while doubling your energy generation. The stat target for presence at level 40 before diminishing returns starts to really kick in is a very low 70. Talents alone are enough to keep most of your healing bonus from presence if you choose.

Protection Field is already going to be maxed, so that's taken care of.

What would I be ranking up Compassion for, though? Just to have 2/3 stacks by default? Or is there something I'm missing?

My stats are indeed set, sadly, so I can't switch Presence to Recovery. XD Given that I have Intelligence and Overdrive, though, I don't think energy will be too much of a problem. Anyway, hopefully that combo will help out!

gamehobo wrote: »

Have a look at Cliff-Side

He is by far the best damage dealing tank I've ever seen. Many PvPers will tell you to try to use Dodge+Mitigation because in PvP it pays to have multiple forms of damage mitigation.. and the best way to get Dodge+Mitigation is with Invul..

However your question was "On a CON toon" how do they fair.. Defiance wins HANDS DOWN, every time. The mitigation tops invul, your health is much higher innately, and your ability to sustain long fights rather big hits or multiple small hits is vastly improved. I reccommend using Primary Defense of +Defense and Impact mods (not dodge/avoidance) because the "Fortified Gear" specialization will turn even the crappiest tank into a great tank. Add to that "The best Offense" which DOES increase when you have higher defense (which Invul does NOT give you and stacks of Defiant DO give you) you also regain your ability to give adequate (though lower compared to someone who'd stack DEX or EGO with Invul) damage.

This is not even mentioning all the secondary powers you could take to boost the effects Defiant. For invul to reach this level of Tank/Offense you have SO many power and advantage points just to play catch up. You dont need IDF for CON/Defiance, you dont need Bubbles for CON/Defiance, and you dont need Dodge boosting powers for CON/Defiance, You dont need alot of NRG management for CON/Defiance.. Quite simply it wins because its cost is low and its benefit is high.

Strictly by the numbers, If CON is the stat you want, then Defiance is the passive you want. Invul is a poor man's tank .. aka someone who wants offensive stat type (Ego, Dex, Int, etc) with a defensive passive.

Finally, numbers be damned. Pick the power that fits your concept. Number crunching.. while fun for an accountant, does not always equate to fun for the player

- -

To your questions about stacking PRE.. no need really.. Resurgence+Compassion will refill you to full health even at the lowest points (even with 602 CON). But Compassion does not scale with CON so if you are afraid of losing effectiveness for this IDF is the only form that does not require INT, REC, PRE, STR, DEX. So if you are statting END or CON your best bet is "usually" to go with IDF because.. it's "the other white meat" of the group.

I can't find an actual build for Cliff-Side.

Or are you more just showing that Constitution-stacking works? That is reassuring, I have to say. XD

So, wait, Defiance adds to the actual Defense stat, as well? I wasn't aware of that. o.o Is it a set amount per stack, or-...?
To my knowledge, the Defense stat also doesn't suffer from diminishing returns, right? Or if it does, the curve on it is very low and gradual. Going nuts on Defense makes sense!

As for numbers not equating to fun for the player, I'll have to disagree in my specific case. XD I love fine-tuning and calculating stuff. This build has been at least a month in the making, and I'm sure it'll be at least a month more given that I still need to save up for the Freeform Slot.

Unfortunately, I can't get Inertial Dampening Field into the build, as all my powers are set in stone aside from the defense passive.

But, on the plus side, Presence cannot go any lower than 110, due to the Superstat and Talent boosts, so I don't have to worry too much about supplementing that, I think. XD

I'll definitely look into just piling on Defense instead of dodge/avoidance! Thank you very much for the tips.

ayonachan wrote: »

To avoid spoiling the void I shall just stamp out what others have said before.

490 Con is all you need to get the most out of defiance

490 is also the number that all (non-idf) forms love

Invul/Dodge tanks beat Defiance/Dodge tanks at everything except things that hit for over 14k base damage

Invul takes almost all pve hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Defiance takes all those non-pve and extreme hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Regen is like defiance except it requires the player to use a certain route to maximize performance and it can surpass even defiance/dodge (slow) heavy hitters

LR is for lazy people and for those who want an easier pve farm

PFF is for the people who have visited the void and have learned the many secrets within said void....or the few who thought it would be 'cool' but quickly switched once they tried it out..(sorta like mighty kick)

XD I'm hoping to get Constitution as high as possible, perhaps beyond 490. It'd be neat if I could get Defiance into the 21%-per-stack territory! I'm not sure what amount of Constitution is needed for that.

How did you come to the 14k mark as far as when Defiance passes Invulnerability?

That IS really high, and definitely tosses the argument quite a bit towards Invulnerability's favor. But I'd like to see the data first-hand to make sure. XD

I don't suppose you know whether Regeneration could surpass the both of them with the right setup?

secksegai · August 2012

ayonachan wrote: »

To avoid spoiling the void I shall just stamp out what others have said before.

490 Con is all you need to get the most out of defiance

490 is also the number that all (non-idf) forms love

Invul/Dodge tanks beat Defiance/Dodge tanks at everything except things that hit for over 14k base damage

Invul takes almost all pve hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Defiance takes all those non-pve and extreme hits better than any of the other defense passives (solo)

Regen is like defiance except it requires the player to use a certain route to maximize performance and it can surpass even defiance/dodge (slow) heavy hitters

LR is for lazy people and for those who want an easier pve farm

PFF is for the people who have visited the void and have learned the many secrets within said void....or the few who thought it would be 'cool' but quickly switched once they tried it out..(sorta like mighty kick)

I would strongly suggest paying attention to her on this one. I'm an experienced "tanker", but I totally bow down when it comes to her. Watching her solo grav the hard way helps too

s3rju · August 2012

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=127092

thought i'd post this here, maybe it'll help clearing some stuff out :rolleyes:

ayonachan · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

XD I'm hoping to get Constitution as high as possible, perhaps beyond 490. It'd be neat if I could get Defiance into the 21%-per-stack territory! I'm not sure what amount of Constitution is needed for that.

How did you come to the 14k mark as far as when Defiance passes Invulnerability? That IS really high, and definitely tosses the argument quite a bit towards Invulnerability's favor. But I'd like to see the data first-hand to make sure. XD

I don't suppose you know whether Regeneration could surpass the both of them with the right setup?

Stacking con past 490 only nets you more hp and a (slightly) higher critical severity from imbue(note: this does not include certain spec tree perks)

14k is the mark for passive+dodge&avoidance
2-3.5k is the mark for only the passive (depending on all your stats) and generally most mobs won't hit for 2k+ more than once every few seconds.

Regen is like defiance....It can take bursts but not sustained medium damage. You can also argue that regen cannot take low sustained damage well either(by itself) but all in all, having one mob hit you for 500 damage every .5 seconds will require 6 seconds to fully recover the amount lost within 3 seconds of sustained damage(Well me not you..my stats get me healed for a max of 1.4kish every 3 seconds)

Anyway the things you want to look at are the synergies that the defense passives have...

Regen heals you->compassion(I didn't test this myself but since all the self heals I use light up compassion I guess this one will too..)
Defiance increases endorphins rush's buff time as well as has an internal energy gain based on the main stat it requires
LR has a special form designed around dodging with an (old but useful) advantage as well as bcr(still great even after the nerf)
Pff has the shield active defense
Invul gets nothing outside of the spec tree

One more thing to drop out in the open

Primary super stat!

Str = high end tank threat stealer as well as yummy +defense from con

Con = Invul/dodge/crit tank's best friend...

Pre = Defiance/Dodge/crit/Healer tank...which is fun but very draining

The rest of the super stats are O-K but I didn't care for them.

Oh and I suck as a tank..I just want to take all the damage so everyone else doesn't have to...and I die every now and then when I am trying to test certain things or do silly things like text and play..(Still stuck on the whole mob perception thing as well as how many resources that a super group bank can hold...)

ayonachan · August 2012

s3rju wrote: »

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=127092

thought i'd post this here, maybe it'll help clearing some stuff out :rolleyes:

funny thing is that Immunity to all damage(except gravity) allows the user to proc most of the other things (You can block and dodge thus letting you gain energy/hp if you have bcrRR)

Anyway on topic!

I use defiance and invul. Defiance for testing things and invul for farming things

You can do everything with invul(yes even tank gravitar like a defiance tank) and you can even do everything with defiance(yes even tank all those harmon security men in resistance adventure pack)
But nothing can compare to the intense satisfaction of defying the cryptic gods(and marebear) and using pff to do BOTH of those things...AT THE SAME TIME!

Nah but the hardest and most satisfying thing to kill is a Destroid Terminator.......Very hard...but not impossible..(if you don't know what that is start flying around in resistance adventure pack once you get outside...when you die the thing that 1-shot you is the destroid terminator)

secksegai · August 2012

ayonachan wrote: »

Nah but the hardest and most satisfying thing to kill is a Destroid Terminator.......Very hard...but not impossible..(if you don't know what that is start flying around in resistance adventure pack once you get outside...when you die the thing that 1-shot you is the destroid terminator)

I want to know how you kill that thing - it one shots anything I'd normally run before I'm even in 120ft range.

ayonachan · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

I want to know how you kill that thing - it one shots anything I'd normally run before I'm even in 120ft range.

I only ever won the fight by using the sidekick expoit...but you 'can' survive the first attack from him..you just have to be lucky and dodge every single attack he does since all of his attacks bypass everything else (including block and even immunity to all damage..which is funny..but makes sense since the whole parry thing in TT and the way they worded how they fixed that exploit makes much more sense)

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 5497 (19238) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 4696 (16433) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 17835 Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

______________________
Anyway, Highest attack to ever hit me was from gravitar and her damage was mitigated into the ground

[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 2986 (107298) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.

_______________________
Now PFF is....well Pff is for void gawkers..

[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 4683 damage.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 246 (17250) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 3287 damage.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 2093 (18828) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 5203 (18210) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 305 damage.

[Combat (Self)] Mega-Destroid Terminator deals 9502 (34322) Particle Damage to you with Eye Beams.

____________________
As you can see PFF has a longer life span(please note: all attacks you see were dodged along with pff and that both, block and immunity to all damage as well as all the other damage reductions are still bypassed by the terminator) against the 'hardest' thing to kill in the game...

Now if cryptic were smart they would make mobs that do the same thing that terminator does except lower the base damage to 1000 ish every .5 seconds (Or make it 350 every .25 seconds) and also have the mob force all heals against you to do 50-90% less...or even push for them to do NOTHING and then it would be the most exciting encounter yet!

Sadly though, I have gotten off topic as well as added in a little too much wishful thinking..

williamkony · August 2012

secksegai wrote: »

I would strongly suggest paying attention to her on this one. I'm an experienced "tanker", but I totally bow down when it comes to her. Watching her solo grav the hard way helps too

Hehe, being able to tank Gravitar would be a nice goal, I think. XD What exactly is "the hard way"? Just without any tricks like terrain exploits or Smoke Grenade?

s3rju wrote: »

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=127092

thought i'd post this here, maybe it'll help clearing some stuff out :rolleyes:

Ooh, that certainly is useful! Invulnerability's linear damage reduction applies to Protection Field? o_o

ayonachan wrote: »

Stacking con past 490 only nets you more hp and a (slightly) higher critical severity from imbue(note: this does not include certain spec tree perks)

14k is the mark for passive+dodge&avoidance
2-3.5k is the mark for only the passive (depending on all your stats) and generally most mobs won't hit for 2k+ more than once every few seconds.

Regen is like defiance....It can take bursts but not sustained medium damage. You can also argue that regen cannot take low sustained damage well either(by itself) but all in all, having one mob hit you for 500 damage every .5 seconds will require 6 seconds to fully recover the amount lost within 3 seconds of sustained damage(Well me not you..my stats get me healed for a max of 1.4kish every 3 seconds)

Anyway the things you want to look at are the synergies that the defense passives have...

Regen heals you->compassion(I didn't test this myself but since all the self heals I use light up compassion I guess this one will too..)
Defiance increases endorphins rush's buff time as well as has an internal energy gain based on the main stat it requires
LR has a special form designed around dodging with an (old but useful) advantage as well as bcr(still great even after the nerf)
Pff has the shield active defense
Invul gets nothing outside of the spec tree

One more thing to drop out in the open

Primary super stat!

Str = high end tank threat stealer as well as yummy +defense from con

Con = Invul/dodge/crit tank's best friend...

Pre = Defiance/Dodge/crit/Healer tank...which is fun but very draining

The rest of the super stats are O-K but I didn't care for them.

Oh and I suck as a tank..I just want to take all the damage so everyone else doesn't have to...and I die every now and then when I am trying to test certain things or do silly things like text and play..(Still stuck on the whole mob perception thing as well as how many resources that a super group bank can hold...)

Ah, so 20% is the cap on Defiance stacks?

What about Ego Surge with Nimble Mind? Does the Constitution-scaling on that hit diminishing returns at any point?

The damage ratings certainly make Invulnerability look a lot better, in terms of pure damage reduction. o.o

I'm not sure how much of a healing bonus I'd get from Compassion, but probably not enough to make Regeneration heal any sort of "godly" amount... Probably no more than 100% total healing boost, which would make Regeneration heal a mere 1000 HP every three seconds, if I'm calculating correctly. Suppose that isn't worth it.

And I don't have any of the other "synergy" powers with the other stuff, so I suppose a standalone defensive passive would be best in that regard.

If I were to go Invulnerability (or Regeneration, really, but I'm now kinda thinking the healing wouldn't be enough), I could forget about stacking Constitution if I wanted to... Makes for another option when setting up the in-game 1-6 Build Button things, I suppose.

Guess I'll probably go Invulnerability. XD The only marginally important thing I would spend the advantage points on otherwise would be rank 2 of Ego Surge, and then the other two points, I'd have no clue.

ayonachan · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

Guess I'll probably go Invulnerability. XD The only marginally important thing I would spend the advantage points on otherwise would be rank 2 of Ego Surge, and then the other two points, I'd have no clue.

Get swinging and the flippin' advantage
It is the most useful ground travel power and it provides a very useful advantage as well
Most(if not all) pve encounters of fall damage(damn gravity putting us down..) will be negated by swinging(and it doesn't change your stance like so many other travel powers do...)

Also swinging is very satisfying to master...(and yes everything else you said was ignored because I am very lazy right now...)

beldin · August 2012

ayonachan wrote: »

Most(if not all) pve encounters of fall damage(damn gravity putting us down..) will be negated by swinging(and it doesn't change your stance like so many other travel powers do...)

Fall damage is also negated by every flight power, as long as your not hit with NTTG of course.

ayonachan · August 2012

beldin wrote: »

Fall damage is also negated by every flight power, as long as your not hit with NTTG of course.

Please note: I said 'Ground travel power' (though it 'isn't' ground based in terms of 'traveling')

The first thing I would have attack would have been "The most useful" but maybe that is just me..

Edit: Though...it is the 'least costing' travel power since the runner up (acro) is at -15% energy strength and swinging is at a low -3.8% energy strength...both have a -3.1% cost though..

williamkony · August 2012

I LOVE Swinging! Unfortunately, this character is set up to use Athletics and Jet Pack, both at rank 2... Athletics is admittedly less necessary now, as I've dropped melee from the build, but replacing it with Swinging would be a little odd, as they both fill roughly the same purpose, not including the advantage.

Being able to use the Flippin' advantage would mean removing rank 2 from whichever travel power I don't take, which makes me sad. XD I like the extra speed! Is the boost really that potent, when paired with Dodge/Avoidance gear?

Granted, Swinging also lets me use Lockdown powers while moving... But that's just Lightning Storm and Rebuke, for now. And Lightning Storm is only 50-foot range. However, I suppose I could look into Lightning Arc instead of Pulse Beam Rifle... I'm not sure which is more potent when taking into account critical hits.

monsterdaddy · August 2012

Regeneration is not affected by any form of bonus healing including Compassion. Only SS affects Regen.

Defiance energy return is really quite useful for DPS tanks that use PA or Laser Sword. I actually have Compassion on my Laser Sword tank but more for the damage buff and energy than healing. He uses Sentinel Mastery for heals but Compassion does make his Resurgence heal 10K non-crit on Rank 2.

RC is a pretty nice heal that is affected by Pre and bonus heals. If you wanted to tank Grav by running Plasma Beam and Eye Beam/Mini Gun and RC simultaneously, I think DPS would be very decent while healing a good amount (even when blocking). Hybrid mode could be useful.

ayonachan · August 2012

Repurposed this post in order to avoid having to make a new topic/post.

Pvp Build 101

Teleport - #1 'Legit' strategy is to run out of melee range then proceed to run back into melee range repeatedly.

GET THESE POWERS!

Get over 10k HP!

SPEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDD

ICE GRENADES! TWO OF THEM!!

TELEKINETIC FORCE FIELD INDUCER, CAUSE ****, RIGHT!?

DODGE!

AVOID!

SPEEEEEEDDDDDDD!

DID I MENTION SPEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD!!?!!?!??!?!11342184fn9apklqrh

SPEED!

SPEED! 'Nuff Said.

And now you see why Ragnarok Online was the only game I ever fully committed myself into PvP (WoE is Me....MAY THE SNOW BLOT OUT THE SUN!!)

oddbirdy · August 2012

williamkony wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of a healing bonus I'd get from Compassion, but probably not enough to make Regeneration heal any sort of "godly" amount... Probably no more than 100% total healing boost, which would make Regeneration heal a mere 1000 HP every three seconds, if I'm calculating correctly. Suppose that isn't worth it.

I was actually just playing with my toon and checked out Regeneration with Compassion...it does proc Compassion, and it is easy to keep a full 8 stacks going, but I did not see any effect on the amount of HP regenerated, nor on my damage. The HP regen part sounds right, but no extra damage sounds like something is off. Then again, CO is pretty buggy right now...

If you were stacking Constitution, would you go Defiance or Invulnerability?

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