test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
How to deal with knockback in time-limited scenarios
clockwise
Posts: 145 Arc User
Let's be clear about one thing; knockback belongs in a superhero game. People who want it gone, or who want people to not use powers that have knockback attached to them are, quite frankly, playing the wrong game. There is very little that so simply and elegantly states "I AM PRETTY GOD DAMN POWERFUL" as a single charged-up punch that sends one or more enemies flying very very far away.
That said, what I usually see in complaints about knockback are one of two things:
The second is really more on Cryptic than on the players. Like the Trainstopping kill counter issue (which is, ironically, not present in Stitch in Time), if a player is not aware of this problem, it is not their fault. Face it, until you ran into the problem for the first time, you weren't aware of it, either. In either case, though, raging on someone who didn't know that they were potentially about to cause a problem for the other four players in their PUG is as likely to lead them to troll you with the knowledge every time they see you in an Alert as it is to lead them to take the factual parts of your message under advisement.
Now, about the first case. I have to admit a minor lack of knowledge in this area, as I play FFs exclusively, and do not dabble with ATs for the most part. However, assuming that every AT is melee with an offensive lunge power and/or ranged, and thus able to do damage to a target without being right on top of them, this means that if there are any players in the game who literally have no tools for coping with knockback in their kits, it is their own shortsightedness that has created this void.
Here are my own personal tools and strategies for minimising the impact of knockback on my personal DPS contribution.
I'm sure there are plenty of other little tips (maybe even PROTIPS, if we are lucky) that other players can share. These, however, have served me more than capably, which is why I generally tend to advocate for players to use whatever the hell kinds of powers they want, in any situation.
If you have some tips for people (and please, keep it to tips for working with the game as it is, not "JUST STOP USING THE POWERS YOU LIKE") that I have not covered, please share them. If you have tried these techniques detailed above and have had difficulty, or want clarification, please ask. I am available in-game as @Dubsy, and I check the forums at least once a week.
That said, what I usually see in complaints about knockback are one of two things:
- We are playing a Smash (with a hard or soft timer), and knocks cut the DPS of the whole team
OR - We are playing in an environment where collision problems can lead to knockback making a mob inaccessible without recourse (e.g. Stitch in Time).
The second is really more on Cryptic than on the players. Like the Trainstopping kill counter issue (which is, ironically, not present in Stitch in Time), if a player is not aware of this problem, it is not their fault. Face it, until you ran into the problem for the first time, you weren't aware of it, either. In either case, though, raging on someone who didn't know that they were potentially about to cause a problem for the other four players in their PUG is as likely to lead them to troll you with the knowledge every time they see you in an Alert as it is to lead them to take the factual parts of your message under advisement.
Now, about the first case. I have to admit a minor lack of knowledge in this area, as I play FFs exclusively, and do not dabble with ATs for the most part. However, assuming that every AT is melee with an offensive lunge power and/or ranged, and thus able to do damage to a target without being right on top of them, this means that if there are any players in the game who literally have no tools for coping with knockback in their kits, it is their own shortsightedness that has created this void.
Here are my own personal tools and strategies for minimising the impact of knockback on my personal DPS contribution.
- If you are a melee hero who relies on offensive lunges (e.g. Mighty Leap) to close gaps quickly, then practise and become adept at using these powers to move, without allowing them to complete execution. This is achieved by blocking at any time before you reach the end of the distance it can travel. When you block, assuming your connection is playable, your hero will stop where they are, and block. This means that effects are not applied, but it also means that the power cost is not charged, and it does not go on cooldown. (This works with defensive lunges like Evasive Maneuvers, as well.)
The cooldown is associated with completion of the entire power, which is A) travel,
apply effects upon arrival. You are essentially working to get as much of A as possible, while backing out at the last moment before B is considered to have been carried out, at which point the power goes on cooldown. With a bit of practise, melee heroes can close gaps relentlessly with even only a single offensive lunge at their disposal.
Part of the complaints I see from melee heroes include that a knockback effect can (and frequently does) put their target out of the maximum range of their only means of closing the distance quickly. Offensive lunges all cap out at 60', if memory serves. The only real solution to this in the context of that single tool is to improve reaction time on the part of the player. It is possible to become adept enough to double- (or triple-) dash to the target by using the technique described above. - If you are primarily a ranged hero, then the real key is positioning. While a magic-heavy type of hero may have some complaint in the way of setting up one or more environmental effects (e.g. circle of arcane power, sigils of radiant sanctuary, et al), most ranged heroes do not require the establishment of a position in order to meaningfully contribute significant damage.
Work to keep yourself at the outer limit of the range of your important powers relative to the target. Do this so that the primary knockback source is opposite the target relative to your position. Essentially all you are doing is placing yourself such that if the target is knocked, it is not immediately away from you, but rather towards you, and then possibly somewhat away on the other side. However, it should never be out of range in this case. Once the target has reached its location, you can continue to adjust your position in order to be ideally situated for dealing with future knockback (or defensive lunge movement).
I'm sure there are plenty of other little tips (maybe even PROTIPS, if we are lucky) that other players can share. These, however, have served me more than capably, which is why I generally tend to advocate for players to use whatever the hell kinds of powers they want, in any situation.
If you have some tips for people (and please, keep it to tips for working with the game as it is, not "JUST STOP USING THE POWERS YOU LIKE") that I have not covered, please share them. If you have tried these techniques detailed above and have had difficulty, or want clarification, please ask. I am available in-game as @Dubsy, and I check the forums at least once a week.
Post edited by clockwise on
0
Comments
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
RIP Caine
#2 is sometimes hard to set up since some people like to move around all over the place, so you never know which way they'll knock to.
One thing I always try to do, is if I'm in "danger" of knocking a boss, I usually do it toward an easy-to-access area. For Dockside Dustup, I'm aiming toward the street. Basically, the wide-open area where you start in. That way the boss doesn't get knocked behind buildings, or into containers, or whatever.
However, people do need to understand that players with knocks are, themselves, at a disadvantage. Before they can really start DPSing, (if they know what they're doing) they need to spend time building up knock resistance on the boss. This can take a while. Also, they have to keep a real close eye on the little timer on the knock resist icon under the boss' portrait. This thing never counts down smoothly, and just when you think you're going to land that haymaker before the buff wears off, you've got a Nemesis flying hundreds of feet away. It's a pain in the ****. Sometimes, knocks just happen. Instead of furiously typing something into chat, use that time to close the gap on the boss and start DPSing again.
Now, if you see someone just constantly throwing the boss around with fully charged attacks, it's much more helpful to say "Try to build stacks of Knock Resist before you fully charge your attacks" than it is to say "STOP THE MOTHER******* KNOCKS YOU PIECE OF ****!"
If fighting non-bosses (bank robbery, for example), if you're going to knock someone, do it to a clear area, and always follow up to finish off the mobs. It's just courtesy, since you're probably the only one really tracking that mob. If you're indoors, aim for the nearest wall.
Also, I can't count how many times Dockside Dustup has ended with everyone standing around waiting to photobomb the cutscene when there's a mob hiding behind crates. When the boss goes down, ALWAYS check the scoreboard. If you don't see any names up there, the timer is still ticking. Go and look for the waywardly knocked mob. And shame on the knocker who didn't follow up on the knock! :biggrin:
Keep in mind that, at least with Might, this doesn't always work. I'm not sure about roomsweeper and uppercut (and if those are the ones that do work, then I suck!), but a tap of Haymaker or Havoc Stomp won't grant you knock resist. You have to charge them up a little bit to get the resistance, and even then, it won't always apply it.
Pretty much this^
These methods don't always work, or can be particularly difficult to attempt effectively at times. I try to keep these in mind with my might toon but she often ends up knocking things way regardless and its difficult (perhaps impossible, though, I haven't played my character in a while so I don't remember well) to built up knock-resist for an entire crowd using powers like Roomsweeper (which always seems to knock tha hell out of everything) or tapping Haymaker (which is a single target attack and building up knock-resist for everything individually will take forever).
Ideally, the most effective solution would be for us to have some sort of mechanism (perhaps pressing the Ctrl key or something while using those powers) with knock powers that give allows us to use them without knocking the living crap out of anything we hit.
So then ask yourself this: Is the damage dealt plus the scattering of enemies by using force detonation worth the time lost in having to close to the target(s)? If you're on a full team and everybody's contributing, I find it hard to believe that 1 big hit + knocking enemies all over the place is worth it...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
However, my only other option is cascade. Even a tap of that involves some npc pinball, I get like 20-30 feet off of one, against trash.
There's becoming a very good reason for me to quickly level up my pa dpser. The way superstats work out now, mixed with the fact that some ego is downright vital for ranged damage, basically means cascade spammers have no choice but to hear complaints about knocks. Shame, because force has my favorite dps powers in the game. I outright stopped playing my other force 40 (which is why I have 2 now) because the pbaoe force power is great to get mobs off of you/the advantage makes the cascade charges HURT, but even when I'm drawing threat people *still* complain because I had to knock people off of me.
RIP Caine
I've asked myself that a couple of times. But my conclusion is always...
...This^
For some characters/builds its either knock everything 50' away, or just sit there leeching your way through an alert and let everyone else do the actual work.
The real problem isn't knocks, or their use. The real problem is Nem bosses and a small assorted handful of others that are still knockable.
This wasn't as big an issue when we all ganged up on poor old Black Fang. But with Nem alerts being the farm factory of the month, it's now a hot topic.
They just need to fix the bugs and oversights, because that is what this is. And this problem will go away. Of course, if they did that. It would also most likely take away the dropped Q boxes. :rolleyes:
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The best way to avoid Knockback in time limited (or any situation) is to not play with people who use it.
Stop pugging and make friends people.
If you have friends that know what they're doing, some silly knockback isn't even an issue.
But by avoiding knockback we defeat it faster.
Yes it can be used, and worked around, and good players can still finish smashes despite it.
However, its inefficent. Period.
The Unleashed has no lunge move, I think.
And melee aside you should try playing a Grimoire on an alert with people who either throws the villain around every ten seconds or runs around like a headless chicken when they get agro. Much of both your utility and your DPS is static.
Might players have already had to change the way they enjoy playing.
I guess it all boils down to... don't hate the player, hate the game. :biggrin:
Honestly, people are just going to have to cope, and try to inform the uninformed, instead of complaining and flaming. For every guy that doesn't know how to manage knockback, there's another who really loves to kite bosses.
And when I say kiting bosses, this also goes for ranged people who exploit Soul Siphon. If you're doing this and you have melee on your team, don't try to tank this way. Drop your aggro so that melee can do its job.
So, say we take care of the knock problem. Whats next? Complaints about the type of Nems people pick?
"You have a Gadget Nem? You looser!"
"Oh crud, another Might nem? Are you kidding?"
"#%#%# munitions Nem, wont stay put!!!"
Raise your hand if you heard anything similar already :biggrin:
Ask yourself just how true of a comic book experience you want. Just please, don't tell us in this thread.
It also shows how they deal with the aftermath of their error. Do they blame everyone else? Do they try to learn how to do better next time? Do they apologise to the people they have injured, or to the families of people they may have even killed? Do they hang up their spandex, even if it's only for awhile?
Yes, CO is missing all of these things. However, it is a game that is meant to approximate the experience of a comic book superhero. Just like Spider-Man ditched the web-shooter devices of his own design in favour of "oh hey, I can shot webs, lol" in order to move to the big-screen in the Tobey Maguire version, sometimes changing media means changing the approach, removing some key elements and adding others. As long as the spirit comes through intact, people are generally accepting.
CO is not remiss in failing to provide a 100% faithful comic book experience. It would require infinitely more resources than they have available to do so, especially given the extremely broad range of genres and styles even within the confines of the "tights 'n' flights" superhero genre. What they aim to provide is a space in which players are able to approximate the feeling of works in that genre, to whatever extent they wish to invest themselves. Given the truly enormous amount of non-combat-game-engine-related RP I see and personally engage in at times, I find that they have, by and large, succeeded in this.
I agree, there are plenty of tips for mitigating the impact of knockback on a team's performance. In fact, I even wrote up a thread for tips like that. If you give me some time, I can probably link you to it. I think I only published tips for dealing with knockback as a player who is not actually doing much of the knocking, so tips for players who ARE sources of knockbacks would be great in a thread like that. However, the whole "knocks from above" thing is pretty iffy, since the slightest error in positioning means that the target is squeezed out like a watermelon seed, and flies a pretty fair distance anyway, along a much less predictable path.
On that note, though, I know that at least a few knockback powers produce knock-UP instead, if the target is under any kind of control effect (root, hold, etc.). So, here's another tip; if you have some CC, apply it. Even if it isn't sticking for long, constantly applying it means it may be in effect for that split-second when a knock is executed, and if it is, then you've just saved everybody a lot of moving around to compensate.
Here's the thing. I covered this in the original post, and expanded upon it above. Knockback belongs in a superhero game. This is a stipulation of this thread. If you disagree, that's wonderful. Take it to your own thread about how it shouldn't be in the game. Similarly, heroes learning how to apply their powers judiciously is part of the experience of suddenly having tremendous power.
Finally, I take issue with your characterisation of my original post. I did not tell people to L2P or uninstall. I did not even break out my old /zone chat retort favourite, "sounds like someone needs to go master Progress Quest!" I'm not calling people nubs for not knowing these things. I'm not telling them that since these solutions exist, and that knockback is therefore solvable, it is never a challenge. The point is that knockback as a situational problem is part of the game, and moreover, it belongs there. And tips on how to deal with it belong here, in this thread.
This is a bit much, IMO. Knockback as a result of being hit really really hard with kinetic energy over a wide enough space is kind of just physics. I understand the practical implications of instituting encumbrance and ammo systems for things like munitions powers, but tossing out physics because some of the player base finds that aspect of the game to be inconvenient in certain scenarios is overkill. The point of this thread is not to debate whether or not knockback should be in the game, or whether or not people should use it. It's to show people that there are ways of dealing with it when it arises, and ways of mitigating it, whether they are the source or not.
Yah, as I stated in the OP, I don't really do much with ATs. Tinkering with builds and character concepts is pretty much the whole game, for me. It sounds like Unleashed can't really do much about knocks in timed scenarios, which is too bad, and I don't really have any good answer for that. As far as a Grimoire or anyone else who requires some setup time and space, provided you can paste a macro to your teammates to let them know that they can make the best use of what you bring to the table by not turning the target around much once it's picked its opponent, you should be able to get some mileage out of the positioning technique I laid out. I grant you that that's quite a lot to expect from a PUG, but it sounds like short of ignoring the gains you can get from being static, and applying all of your advantage points to try to maximise mobility, that's about the best that can be done for those two ATs.
As far as telling people what to do, that's not what this is about. This is just me trying to say, "here is what I do to beat this part of the game, here is how I have found success where others seem to be having less luck." Like Smackwell said, it's on the game, not the players.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was Dubsy on the Old Forums. I am still @Dubsy in-game. Also, lol.
Wrong thread, sir. I see no tips here on how you mitigate knockback when faced with teammates who employ it in timed scenarios.
For you, and for everyone else who wants to bring nothing here but "keep ur knockback out my game," I can no longer resist heartily recommending Progress Quest to you. If what you want from your game, primarily, is efficiency of execution of game mechanics, then look no further; that is the only game you will ever need. Some people like their games to have a variety of challenges, including some that... wait for it... can't be beaten on the first try (or maybe even the hundred-and-first).
Carry on!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was Dubsy on the Old Forums. I am still @Dubsy in-game. Also, lol.
I don't know, I've had to triple-dash towards a knocked enemy, and when I'm really playing melee a lot, I'm pretty good at using most of the 60' they already give us. Which means the target was likely over 120' away after the knock, in which case, what do we say is too far for a melee character to be able to launch what is essentially a ranged attacked? After a bit of thought, I think I prefer the 60' range. Just a hair over medium-range ranged attack range. (I want a prize for the last half of that sentence, somebody.) In any case, what you're talking about is a mechanical change, and not something that is currently in the game that can be used in a certain way to address knockback.
Which reminds me. If you're not worried about taking PBAoE damage, or you have good sustain to counter any such damage, auto-following your target can help you get a bit of an edge if they get suddenly ejected in any direction. Instead of firing your response at the range to which they've traveled by the time you react, you get to fire it a bit closer, since your hero will automatically chase them at their base speed or initial travel power speed whenever they move.
Another tip, which can probably help Unleashed ATs, if nobody else, is to pick up Teleport as a travel power. Even with a 10s cooldown after use in combat, this will afford you an extremely high-speed chasing capability in response to any knocks. The CD should be up before the mob's latest triple-stack of knock resist finishes building and expiring.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was Dubsy on the Old Forums. I am still @Dubsy in-game. Also, lol.
Well said Dubsy . I am Sick of hearing people say stuff like roomsweeper should be removed
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The real problem is not knockback, but the minority of players who do not understand or choose to ignore the correct use of KB. A skillful player will typically apply a KB resistance attack first, before winding up a major hit. Thus the initial KB is trivial and any successive ones do not move the target away, possibly up but that isn't an issue. However, the resistance wears off with poor warning so it is easy to sometimes smash a mob further than intended. Also many players mistake bosses own retreating powers, such as breakaway shot, as knockback and scream at players to stop. I have seen this many times in alerts, especially Red Alert. If a mob is constantly moving away, it almost certainly isn't KB doing it due to the inherent KB resistance caused by a previous KB.
Finally, few powers if any give me the same pleasure as smashing a mob across the screen and for added jollies, use a power like iron lariat to jerk them back for an extra haymaker
...TRANSLATION: It's buggered
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
The Unleashed has no lunge move. In this case it is not about a lack of foresight but about the way the archetype is designed.
The closest thing they can do is to use teleport to close in quickly, but for many players that depends on whether or not the travel power itself fits their concept.
An amusing little fact I discovered just yesterday is that Skarn's Bane, the one thing Grimoires are expected to use almost constantly during boss battles as it does a nice bit of damage while removing beneficial status effects the target has, removes the KB Resistance buff along the other buffs the target has.
It was a very "oops" moment.
I see where you are coming from.
This being about solutions to the problem I would say it lies with enviromental awareness.
A melee player can control the direction of the throw by positioning himself or herself around the villain, so they can quite easily throw the villain to a position in which it will not bother everyone else instead of just throwing them around at random as they usually do.
A melee player can control in some measure where the villain will land by kitting him or her away from that point before using the throwback move. As long as the point where the throwback move will be used and the point where the villain will land are inside most characters' ranges the DPS lost will be negligible.
A melee player may be able to use the enviroment to control the throw. The indestructible cube thing right in the middle of the dockside dustup area, for example. As long as the characters that the throw would bother are in range to the object being used there's no DPS being lost by throwing the villain in such a way it is stopped by the item in question.
All those measures may be seen as requiring extra effort and concentration from the player, yes, but it is responsability of every player to learn how to best use his or her skills and powers. I do not know whether or not such an expectation would be realistic given Champion's high casual player population, as they may not want to put that kind of effort or thought into the game to begin with.
I have nothing against casual players myself, but when you have seen a team of four tanks on a grab alert be unable to keep agro from the one healer keeping them alive there seems to be little hope for teamwork and coordination in sight for PUGs.
Yah, that's what I was getting at. It's kind of disappointing that, with ATs being sold as having "everything you need," there are at least those two (Unleashed and Grimoire) where the lack of an offensive lunge, or the nature of the kit, respectively, damages their output. On the one hand, I tend to favour variety, so I don't mind TOO too much if this kind of thing is the exception and not the rule.
I'd also agree that having to rely on a power because it's the "right one" for whatever situation, or is highly flexible, is not really a good option. I feel like this when I see a hero who is clearly 100% magic, for example, but then they summon Support Bots, because they're mechanically efficient, even though they break (or at least appear to break) concept.
Using unbreakable environmental pieces is a great tip I'd forgotten to write up; thank you for sharing it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was Dubsy on the Old Forums. I am still @Dubsy in-game. Also, lol.
The only time I find knocks annoying is when my client tells me I just "released" a charge up but the server got the "knocked" message before it got my client's "hit" message." On those occasions I just try to remember that crap happens.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Even so, why should players who need to knockback be forced to reduce their dps and energy efficiency because of a tiny minority who don't take a suitable travel power, such as teleport or acrobatics with versatility?
Personally I hate the graphic for epidemic, as it obscures my view of mobs. However, I don't tell those players to stop doing it, despite the fact that losing sight of mobs means my DPS is reduced whilst I find which one I have targeted.
Personally I see no issue with that as it makes sense in the way that a dispel magic effect should remove all magics. Besides, I am in favor of anything that makes mobs sail through the air even more.
I agree it is up to the player to ensure that any KB is controlled. Like I said the problem lies with the player usually and not the knockback function. Even if their are no environmental barriers, to slam mobs into, alerts have the invisible walls which work just as well.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If i dont have LUNGE i am fcked.. also if they are already resistent to knocks...because then i cant forcesnap them...so....
the best solution woudl be that Travelpowers STAY AT MAX SPEED IN COMBAT ...would be even more fun to fight at max speed... especially in pvp ^^ would remind me of "Zone of The Enders" ^^
I'm not 100% certain that these are surefire workarounds to the knockback problem. I'm pretty sure that the knockup of the attack would still go into effect, clearly knocking the boss over the gadroon bomb thingy. And if you're at the edge of the map, if you're not exactly perpendicular facing the wall, the boss will still go flying up and sliding left or right (whichever angle you're facing).
I have found that R3 travel powers have a pretty impressive amount of movement speed even at their lowest tier. I would think that if travel powers could remain at their top speeds when in combat, there'd be very little incentive to rank them up, so for now, I like the choice that that presents in building.
I don't know that there is really any "surefire solution," but I have had fair success with using obstacles, and more than fair success using my techniques from the original post.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was Dubsy on the Old Forums. I am still @Dubsy in-game. Also, lol.